Smokeless equivalent load for a Trapdoor

[Gazz]

I am ready to make up some loads for 1888 trapdoor rifle and would like to use smokeless powder and end up with a load that would approximate the original black powder load. A load that would shoot to the same point of aim is the goal. I do have a bunch of 405 grain cast bullets and thought about using fleece type material in place of dacron as a filler. The local Walmart did not have dacron and a yard of the fleece material was cheap enough. I believe it is polyester but do not know if there would be any problem using that material. Or I could use corn meal to keep the powder in place. I also wonder if using a piece of hot glue cut to length would work. I also have one of the Lee rifles in 45-70 that the loads would get used in. Thanks for useful responses!

[curator]

Gazz,

My 1888 trapdoor "loves" the Lee .459-405hb cast bullet, but does not like the .457-405 Lee or Lyman slugs as they cast too small. My 1888 has a .462 groove diameter, and others I have measured are in the .460-.466" area. Undersized, soft bullets "can" shoot will in these guns using black powder, but smokeless powder loads will lead like crazy due to hot gas leakage. My Lee .459-405hb mold drops 1 in 40 tin/lead alloy slugs that measure .462. I load them over 23 to 25 grains of SR4759 with a 1/8 card wad under the bullet to protect the base. This load shoots pretty much to the sights out to 300 yards even though the original sights are regulated for the 500 grain load.

[StrawHat]

Some use 5744 in the 45-70, I have also heard 3031 bring used and other similar powders. I do not have recipes as I don't use them.

If it were me, I would research a bunch of the old recipes before I considered adding any filler to the mix. Not all powders need it and with some, it is not recommended. If needed, I would not use synthetic. Your rifle, your decision.

Kevin

[marlinman93]

Fillers are not good with some smokeless powders, and I'd sure stay away from using any filler like a glue stick! A filler like Dacron, or COW are commonly used, but only with certain powders. I've had no trouble with leading and smokeless powders. I only use smokeless in my old guns, and if the bore is slugged, bullet sized correctly, with the proper lube, it shouldn't lead your bore.
I almost hate to specify powder loads for other people's guns. But there is numerous load data in most reloading manuals listed as "Trapdoor Level" loads specifically for smokeless powder in your gun.

[Gazz]

Thanks for the comments!
The Hornady book that I have gave some loads using 3031 which included a dacron filler. I can't help but think that dacron or another synthetic material would be left in the bore as any of that stuff would melt or burn to some degree. One of the loads suggested was something like 30 grains of powder (I am to lazy to go fetch the book and verify that number though) which comes no where near filling the case and I am thinking that keeping the powder near the primer is the way to go so some kind of filler is required.

[rancher1913]

the layman cast boolit manual lists a lot of smokeless powder loads, if you don't have it, please get it, it will save you a lot of problems. I like 4198 and don't bother with filler and it works just fine. I use pc'd boolits and don't have leading issues.

[Gazz]

I have a couple of the Lyman cast boolit books and will check them. By pc'd, you mean pre cast I am guessing? The bullets I have came from an estate sale and were obviously home cast. They are in all kinds of different boxes with little notes stating that they are for the Sharps. I don't know the alloy used though as that was not recorded but they are all sized and lubed. Wish I had found the rifle at the sale but I think it was kept by a family member who either had no interest in shooting or reloading.

[retread]

PC. Powdered coated, as in powdered baked on coating. Search site for Powder Coating. Very popular and to many the only way to go.

[retread]

Here is a thread you can look at some of the folks finished products:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?251956-Powder-coated-bullets-pics-only

For more info:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/group.php?groupid=56

[John Boy]

Sources for Trapdoor smokeless charges BP equilivant:
http://reloadammo.com/ ...
Do not use any of this data with guns designed for black powder loads or any original TRAPDOOR rifles, EXCEPT WHERE NOTED that it is a "TRAPDOOR" Load. If condition of old gun is doubtful, even these loads could be risky. Consider using original Black Powder loads and lead bullet for old guns.

Trapdoor website (loading data at the end) ... http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/shooterstext.html

[M-Tecs]

I like 10 grains of Unique for 385/405 cast in the TD. No filler required. These loads are from the Lyman 45th Reloading Handbook for Rifle, Pistol and Muzzle Loading... Paperback – 1970

[Nueces]

The loading standard for 5744 charges to approximate original black powder loads is to use, in grains weight, 40% of the original BP charge. Thus, for 45-70 (70 grains of BP), use 28 grains of 5744. Pressures and muzzle velocities are very close to the original ones. I've used this load a lot in a new Sharps 1874 and an original Trapdoor carbine. Wonderfully accurate.

Accurate Powders cautions loaders not to use wads or filers with 5744. Some complain of unburned powder grains left in the bore, which I have noticed, but the accuracy and good manners of this load carry the day.

[SSGOldfart]

I shoot without the filler,using 405gr soft lead and a light load of Unique 4.9grs works good for me,I use Ben's liquid lube,over Ben's red lube Zero leading
Lots of room with this load,If memory serves me 13grs. Of Unique is the listed maximum,I enjoy lighter loads which is the main reason I Handload to start with.:wink:
These loads are from Hodgdon#26 &#27 Manuals.

[Skipper]

Gazz, ssgoldfart is right on the money...use Unique, no filler and size the boolit .001 to .002 over groove diameter.
Unique loads can be found here ( scroll down on the left ):
http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

[tacklebury]

My trap door loads are using Reloader7. You can load it from 31 gr. for trap door to 54 gr. for #1 level stuff. All with one powder. 8)

[Gazz]

I did press up some Reloader 7 loads but they are warmer although listed as safe for a trapdoor, 39.5 gr behind the 400gr slug. I'll shoot them in my repro rolling block. interesting thing about that powder was the velocities were higher but the pressures lower, according to the Lyman manual. In the morning I'll make some of the unique loads.

[oldfart1956]

Gazz go to page 3 on this forum and read Larry Gibsons posts on his loads for the Trapdoor. That entire post should be a sticky. He covers all the bases. Well worth your time. Audie..the Oldfart..

[M-Tecs]

Gazz go to page 3 on this forum and read Larry Gibsons posts on his loads for the Trapdoor. That entire post should be a sticky. He covers all the bases. Well worth your time. Audie..the Oldfart..

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?190999-My-Trapdoor-Loads-Technique-and-Equipment

[robg]

Trail boss is designed for light loads in big cases ,

[M-Tecs]

Trail Boss is not a good choice for TD's. Trail Boss give relatively high pressures for velocity.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?153792-Loads-for-old-trapdoor-Springfield post #3 lays out the issues well.

[tdoyka]

i'd try unique first, then either rel7 or 4198.

if you had a lever gun or a ruger or a handi-rifle(like i do) i would try trail boss. tb has high pressure, so i would NOT use tb.

[Gazz]

Thanks for all the help. I tried a load of 8gr Unique behind a 400gr slug and it seems print dead on at 100 yards. Pleasant to shoot too.

I do have a Marlin 1895 before they came with micro groove barrels and a Pedarsoli rolling block. I am going to use up the powder I have on hand before I try any Trail Boss since I don't have any!

[shooter2]

This was the recommendation of Ross Seyfried years ago and it worked well for me. Mild and accurate.

Use 40% of the BP load of either H4198 or IMR4198. For example 70 grains of BP would be 28 grains of 4198. I used a nice dacron wad.

[Washington1331]

If you go to accurate powder's website, you'll find a reloading manual that includes load data for trapdoor rifles. I have used 5744 on many an occasion in old trapdoors and it works well. Then I tried real black powder and I was hooked. Shoot smokeless if you want, but if you want a real hoot shoot the old warhorse with what the creaters of it intended. You'll be hooked too.

With smokeless and the trapdoor, you have to be really careful of not double charging your cases. You're dealing with small amounts of powder and it is rather easy to make a mistake and not realize it. Also use some soft lead bullets... you want the bullet to bump up to fill an oversize bore. Superhard cast bullets may or may not group depending on your bore condition. Don't use jacketed bullets, you'll erode your rifling very quickly.

Here's the link for accurate's reloading guide: http://www.accuratepowder.com/load-data/


Good luck with the old warhorse.

[craig61a]

I have used numerous powders and black; I currently use Blackhorn 209, which is a smokeless powder. Bulky - I fill the case with 37 gr., a 1/8" hard felt wad and a 405 grain boolit. Excellent accuracy.

[clum553946]

IMR 4198 is what I use in my trapdoor with a tuft of dacron over the powder.

[rfd]

without a doubt, aa5744 - imho it's currently the best smokeless intended to replicate trapdoor loads in modern replica rifles. i've used many pounds of that powder for .40-65, .45-70, and .45-90 before admitting there's truly nothing better for an old gun or modern replica than the real deal holy black. amen, my brothers of the stink pole.

i have also concluded that using wads or fillers of any kind with air spaced smokeless rounds is the kiss of death awaiting to occur for firearm or human. for 2016, even the quigley match will not allow double based powders loaded with wads/fillers.

[marlinman93]

i have also concluded that using wads or fillers of any kind with air spaced smokeless rounds is the kiss of death awaiting to occur for firearm or human. for 2016, even the quigley match will not allow double based powders loaded with wads/fillers.

Yes, they added that rule after some double base powder load incidents.

[rfd]

Yes, they added that rule after some double base powder load incidents.

and it'll be interesting to see how they enforce that rule.

[JWT]

I used Larry Gibson's 25gr 5744 load with 3/4gr Dacron (polyester) fill under a Lee 405 hollow base with good results