mirocu 45-90

[bignut]

Hello, I am completely new to this sport. I have a Winchester bpcr in 45-90. I have heard they have a different chamber than most, and different than the same rifle in 45-70. Just to try something different I would like to shoot paper patch. Always thought they looked neat. I haven't been able to dig up info on this particular rifle in regards to pp bullets. Is this chamber suitable to pp or should a guy stick to gg. Thanks in advance.

[boommer]

Here you go I have a Win bpcr Creedmoor 45-90 they have more free bore in them. I just got started with pp and first go around pp was with 444-dia 550 gr slug, buffalo arms paper .030 card 2 wraps with the paper brought it up to .450 perfect 90 grs Swiss 1.5 /BR2 primer /compressed powder so the bullet sets .250 in the case and taper crimp They shot great, right with or close with my greaser loads.FOR A FIRST TRY not bad !!

[bignut]

Thank you very much boomer, I really appreciate your reply! Sounds like it is worth a try, so I'm going to giver a whirl[smilie=2: I have heard so much misinformation about these chambers its hard to figure them out for a beginner.
Seems a little hard to get questions answered here for me. I see posts that say ask specific questions to get answers, research etc.. . But when you don't have a good idea how to ask specific questions and only want general info its kinda hard. Also not much info on this caliber/gun combo.

[Nobade]

Look up texasmac on this forum - he's the expert on these rifles. Even wrote the book on them!

-Nobade

[boommer]

bignut something else those are fire formed not sized cases and I do bell them slightly. I'm going to play with this more but need to wait till it gets a little nicer out.First go round was 100 yards got tight groups that was at club but as soon weather breaks I'll get to out farm and give them a whirl there soon as dries up. I get out to 700 yards there That will be test !

[BrentD]

Here you go I have a Win bpcr Creedmoor 45-90 they have more free bore in them. I just got started with pp and first go around pp was with 444-dia 550 gr slug, buffalo arms paper .030 card 2 wraps with the paper brought it up to .450 perfect 90 grs Swiss 1.5 /BR2 primer /compressed powder so the bullet sets .250 in the case and taper crimp They shot great, right with or close with my greaser loads.FOR A FIRST TRY not bad !!

boomer, If you are happy with your first attempt, then maybe you won't want to change anything. However, if you were going to try somethign different, here is what I would suggest. Go with a 0.06" wad (not 2 .03" wads) for better sealing of the chamber. You could even go to LDPE. They might have a slight edge over fiber wads and give up nothing.

then take your powder up to about 102 grs which should allow just a slight amount of compression, seating the bullet only 0.1" in the case. This has been, by far, the best load for accuracy in my .45-90, when I had one.

Let us know how you progress. It is nice to start off in a good place, and this is not at all uncommon for paper patched bullets. I think they are much easier to get at least reasonable accuracy from, simply because their loading is so simple.

[boommer]

Hi Brent THANKS I'll give a that combo a try. I've bought those first hundred bullets from buffalo arms just to test the waters now I'm looking to pick up a mold. What would you suggest?
Mothers day weekend are you going to at the Lodi shoot.
Thanks Clayton

[BrentD]

Clayton, yes I will be at Lodi on Mom's Day. I hope you are going too. The crowd has been growing nicely for several years now and it would be nice to continue that trend.

If it will work with the paper you have, I have been suggesting this bullet for .45s with 18 twist. http://www.buffaloarms.com/Bullet_Molds_it-1173820.aspx?TERM=Jim443

Brent

[boommer]

Thanks I'll order one up! I see they will have make one up they out of stock. I like those baco molds.What you think 20-1 or what mix ? paper not problem.

ya I'll be there! was glad I didn't make there on labor day last year with the heat.I had to work no getting out of it ! so I sat in my air conditioned dozer for 12 hours that day.

[BrentD]

16:1. NOT 20:1. 20:1 might work okay, maybe even good enough. Try it AFTER you get 16:1 working.

Even in the heat, Lodi is always good. And for sure, it won't be hot on Mom's day. That is, in many ways, my biggest match of the year, or at least the one where I feel the most pressure.

Brent

[BRUCE MOULDS]

with that freebore, it also might be worth trying a bullet patched to groove diameter.
this worked for the brits.
keep safe,
bruce.

[boommer]

with that freebore, it also might be worth trying a bullet patched to groove diameter.
this worked for the brits.
keep safe,
bruce.

Hi Bruce thing of it is with success right out of the box after hearing all the horror stories about patching I was shocked ! it work out so well first try BUT THAT IS one more option down the road and you get to the fork!

Thanks Clayton

[semtav]

with that freebore, it also might be worth trying a bullet patched to groove diameter.
this worked for the brits.
keep safe,
bruce.

And It works great for me. PJ .454 PP mould patched to groove. 95 Gr swiss 1.5

[Lead pot]

bignut I have a couple Browning BPCR one in the .40-65 and .45-70 and they do have a different chamber but it is slight.
The chamber end is shallow, less then the 45 degree mostly used now days and mine has a slight free bore of .052". The chamber is for my liking to large at the case mouth so you will have to make sure you seat the bullet as far out as practical to get most of the patched bullet into the throat. The bullet should be a tight fit if your intent is for the match shooting, as tight as possible to the bore and still be able to seat the shell into the chamber. This will require a clean throat. Hunting loads are a different story.
If you like using the blow tube, using a bore mop on a short pistol cleaning rod and mop the throat or wipe the complete bore with a damp patch followed with a dry so the tight patched bullet can be seated.

I had a wad punch made to cut a larger diameter wad for the browning to help restrict the gas from passing by using a bore diameter PP bullet and a use wad material that will expand when pressure builds up to seal the gas. It sure helped with my rifle with the larger chambers.
Here is where a two diameter PP bullet smiles with the Browning BPCR, but it takes a custom mould.
Use a ladder load developing a load for your rifle. It is the fastest way finding what will work in your rifle.

[montana_charlie]

This is a product from Dan Theodore.
It depicts the chamber on a Browning/Winchester 45/90, and the Money bullet Dan designed for that chamber.

If you redraw the shank to remove the grease grooves, then adjust the diameter to .454", it can be patched up to .459/.460" with onionskin paper ... and it will function in this chamber exactly like the 'parent' grooved bullet would.

http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv203/montana_charlie/45-calMoneyBulletBrowning-WinCha-1_zpshjwzkjht.jpg

[Chill Wills]

Here is where a two diameter PP bullet smiles with the Browning BPCR, but it takes a custom mould.
Use a ladder load developing a load for your rifle. It is the fastest way finding what will work in your rifle.

159723159724
Here is a picture of a Two Diameter PP bullet that has worked for me in two Browning chambers. One chamber is somewhat like Charlie posted.
I don't know if this is the last word design in PP bullet accuracy but it IS a lot like PP for dummies, if you can load GG bullets it is not much of a leap to shoot these.

[Don McDowell]

What are the measurements on that bulllet? That looks very similar to what I'm thinking of having Brooks make .

[Lead pot]

They don't look bad Michael. That postell nose they should be a good shooter.
I would make the base a little shorter yet like 1/8" or 3/16 so you can seat them out a little farther. But with a little freebore that bullet should work well as it is.

[Chill Wills]

Don - not sure what the measurements are anymore.

Kurt - These are some I cast a long time ago and they have been bouncing around in a tray for 10+ years maybe. I shot them in the first American Creedmoor Cup match I put on. I think I am ready to get going on them again. I really did not give them a fair try back then. I remember I needed to change my wiping routine to something more involved and grease groove bullets were less distracting during the matches so I did not pursue it.
I think I am ready to look at wiping again and see if I changed my mind.
Don - let me go get the bullets and a mic.....
OK. Here is the measurements:
The base and shank are 0.449" and 0.441" as cast.
Wrapped they are 0.457" and 0.449" -This with 9 lb paper.
It weighs 530 grains

Maybe this bullet is a tad small but I was not sure how large to go and back then there was a lot less chatter about what was working. I felt like a shade smaller would give me more elbow room in a TWO diameter bullet plus these are much less finicky about alloy hardness. That was one of my goals ...was to have a much larger window of metal hardness that would work accurately. This translates to using all kinds of bullet alloy, mongrel or otherwise. Hard alloys needed to bump up very little and holding the nose form and Bc is high on my list. Balancing the needs of a bore diameter PP to both bump up and hold the nose was one of the main reasons I had this two diameter bullet mold cut. The former really relies on getting the alloy just right.

[Don McDowell]

Thank you for those measurements thats almost exactly what I was thinking of having done.
I would suggest wrapping those you have with 8 lb. paper, and using a single stiff wad under neath.

[Lead pot]

Michael they should fly pretty good if you can get then to stay in the throat straight with the 8# paper. Guessing your 8# paper is .0018" thick.
I would prefer the top at .443" with .0018" paper or .0022" with that .442 top section and push that thicker base through a sizing die if the bore requires it. Head up in the hills and shoot a few into the snow bank to see if you get any finning before sizing them.
That bullet the way it is should work just fine with .002" or + 2/10,000"

[BRUCE MOULDS]

Michael, your concept has proven to work for me.
what happens when you light the fire?
before the bullet starts to move, it bumps up to fill any space available.
this means it has to fill an obturated case neck, and any freebore that exists, as well as the rifling until it cannot do that anymore at some point on the nose.
looking at charlies drawing, and assuming case neck thickness 0f 0.012, the ideal diameter of the larger part of the bullet would be 0.460 to fit the inside of a fired case and the freebore.
however finger seating is hard to do with a perfect fit, so the bullet being a little smaller than this is more functional.
the old pp chambers could do this with a bullet patched to bore, because a fired case had about 0.002 clearance on a bore diameter bullet.
greaser chambers need a thicker bullet to achieve the same., and the dual diameter allows this, while still having some of the bullet in the bore.
there is minimal disturbance to the bullet when it bumps up, and hence the potential for accuracy is greater.
where the diameters change, you can seat up to the leade angle.
dual diameter bullets can require a learning curve where patching and patch templates are concerned, but it is not a major issue.
looking at where your patch goes up to on the nose illustrates a point.
the patch goes that far forward to protect the bore from lead, as that much of the bullet bumps into the rifling.
guys shooting greasers of similar design have that part of the nose exposed to the bore, and assume it is bore riding!
why will a pp nose bump into the rifling and not a greaser nose?
the answer is that the greaser nose also goes into the rifling, potentially causing leading.
guys possibly get some forgiveness from this when blowtubing on all but the first shot.
keep safe,
bruce.

[bignut]

Benn away for a while getting ready to sugar. Thanks to all for the info

[semtav]

If you are going to get serious about shooting PP in a Winchester Miroku 45-90, you first need to get the proper length brass. The chamber is longer than standard. Either buy some 45 2.6 brass and trim to appox. 2.425 length or get a Kal stretcher and stretch your 45-90 brass to that length. I will post some pics tonight of a very accurate load using this rifle.

[semtav]

http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae53/S2D/DSC01482_zpsetmnryay.jpg (http://s957.photobucket.com/user/S2D/media/DSC01482_zpsetmnryay.jpg.html)

Br2 Primer
Starline 45 2.6 trimmed to 2.425
95 gr Swiss 1.5
.060 veg wad
.060 ldpe wad
Staedtler 8 lb paper
PJ .454 Money bullet 12.5-1 alloy

this is a Patched to groove load

I haven't had a dirt digger or unexplained flyer in 5 matches now ( 36 shots per match)

I wish I could shoot with C. M. and Bruce Moulds they both know the benefits of Groove dia loads, and it would be fun to compare side by side.