Enfield No 2 Mk I and the 38/200- Any data out there?

[Catch22]

I recently procured an Enfield No 2 Mk I that I'm looking forward to putting some rounds through. I've got brass on the way and fluked into a set of dies this evening. I have found a place that makes 200 gr. cast boolits, .361 diameter that I intend on using. I slugged the bore tonight, showing it to be .360.

My big problem at this point is data and finding powder. I've found recommendations of 2gr Bullseye, but that powder's a unicorn around here right now.

Anyone loading this round that might share some info? I have Red Dot and Green Dot, and I've seen a few other powders available. I just need to figure out what powder to look for and some loads. I'm still fairly new to the reloading game, especially pistol. I've not loaded cast yet, so trying to get info wherever possible.

I've also read where guys have had luck with various .357 projectiles in the 150 gr range, which I'm not afraid to try if I can hunt down some data on that (which seems to be more plentiful than data for the heavier projectiles).

Thanks in advance!!!

159221

[Outpost75]

I am using Accurate 36-155 D in my Webley MkIV with 2.5 grains of Bullseye 770 fps, shoots to same point of impact as Fiocchi 146 LRN 750 fps.

[FergusonTO35]

You may want to first try a box of Remington or Winchester .38 S&W factory ammo and see if the point of impact is correct. If so, then I wouldn't bother with heavier slugs unless it's just an itch you need to scratch. It is difficult to get the 200 grainers up to a useful velocity without exceeding the low pressure limit for this cartridge.

Most of your bulk lead boolits for .38 Special are sized to .358 and very soft lead for target and cowboy action shooting. They might obturate enough to seal the bore and shoot just fine for you.

[KCSO]

Try Pet Loads Page 557, all you wanted to know!

[Catch22]

You may want to first try a box of Remington or Winchester .38 S&W factory ammo and see if the point of impact is correct. If so, then I wouldn't bother with heavier slugs unless it's just an itch you need to scratch. It is difficult to get the 200 grainers up to a useful velocity without exceeding the low pressure limit for this cartridge.

Most of your bulk lead boolits for .38 Special are sized to .358 and very soft lead for target and cowboy action shooting. They might obturate enough to seal the bore and shoot just fine for you.

I guess you could call it an itch, I want to load up at least some rounds that the gun was actually designed to shoot and see how it does with them. I've read mixed results. Some guys have very accurate results with the 200, some guys have better luck with .357/358 rounds with soft lead and a bit lighter.


Try Pet Loads Page 557, all you wanted to know!

I don't have a copy just yet. Trying to find a copy of the book within my play money budget.

[FergusonTO35]

According to Ian Hogg's book Handguns and Rifles, ​the 200 grain lead slug was replaced rather quickly with a 178 grain FMJ for fears that the former violated the Geneva Convention.

[9.3X62AL]

I use the NEI #169A round nose design, gives a 202 grain bullet in my alloy (92/6/2, which is much harder than needed for this application). I size to .363", which was a standard Lyman H&I sizer a few years ago......not sure about present-day. I put these up in Starline cases, CCI 500 primers, either 3.0 grains of Unique or 3.3 grains of Herco. My Webley-Enfield is no target piece, and keeps these about 3"-3.5" at 25 yards and places them where the sights look. A S&W M&P in this caliber shoots better, 2" to 2.5" at 25, again close to where the sights line up.

Strangely--the bullet at .810" is longer than the case it fits into (.775"). The 200 grainers only clock about 675-700 FPS, but when they hit iron silhouettes they CLANG with a lot more authority than do 150 grain SWCs at similar speed from my Police Positive in 38 S&W. FWIW.

[Patrick56]

Take a look at this thread:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?241578-Fun-with-a-Webley-Mark-IV-38-200-AKA-38-S-amp-W-AKA-380-Rimmed

[Catch22]

I'm going to revive this a bit. Maybe even get some new info along the way.

After moving and some other delays, I've finally got my reloading bench set up and am putting together some .38-200 rounds. I've got a copy of Pet Loads on hand, as that's the only published data I've been able to find so far. I've noticed that he's using a Ruger model with a slightly smaller bore than what I've got on my Enfield (slugged .360).

What I've put together so far is a ladder using Unique and 200 gr. pills from Matt's Bullets (http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=72&products_id=308). My rounds are at 1.190 per the same specs in Pet Loads. My loads are at 2.8-3.1 gr, in 0.1 gr increments. Waiting for a decent day to hit the range and try them.

My next step is to try some with W231, starting at 2.2 gr. Maybe try a load with Green Dot I believe was in Pet Loads.

Anyone else with anything tried and true? I've got Titegroup, Titewad, and Red Dot. Not a lot of different stuff, but trying to work with powders I have instead of buying more for one caliber.

[Outpost75]

Here is some velocity data from my revolvers:

Velocity Comparisons Webley & Scott Mark IV vs. 38 Colt New Police Positive

Both revolvers have 4" barrels and 0.005" cylinder gap. Cylinder throat and barrel groove diameter are:

.362/.360 for the Webley (dom 1950), and .359/.354 for Colt New Police Positive (dom 1930)

Ammunition:____________________Webley Mark IV_______Colt Police Positive
Fiocchi 146-grain LRN factory load_________750 fps, 19 Sd_______794 fps, 14 Sd
Accurate 36-125T, 2.7 grs. Bullseye________761 fps, 10 Sd_______803 fps, 10 Sd
“ “ “, 3.0 grs. Bullseye___________________837 fps, 16 Sd_______883 fps, 9 Sd
Accurate 155D-146-gr.HP 3.0 Bullseye______794 fps, 15 Sd_______852 fps, 12 Sd
Accurate 36-155D, 2.1 grs. Bullseye________640 fps, 8 Sd________671 fps, 11 Sd
“ “ “, 2.5 grs. Bullseye__________________710 fps, 16 Sd_______756 fps, 11 Sd
Accurate 36-178D, 2.1 grs. Bullseye_______ 595 fps, 10 Sd_______601 fps, 18 Sd
Ideal 195-grain #358430 1.7 Bullseye______513 fps, 11 Sd_______.362 dia. bullet would not chamber in Colt
Accurate 36-201D, 2.1 grs. Bullseye_______601 fps, 12 Sd________612 fps, 20 Sd
NOE 201-grain Mk2, 2.1 grs. Bullseye______609 fps, 12 Sd________629, fps 15 Sd

[Catch22]

Much appreciated, Outpost 75!

[Harry O]

From Handloading magazine, issue #122 (July/Aug 1986)'

Correct bullet size is 0.360". .38 Special bullets at 0.357" give poor accuracy unless they are hollow-base.

146gr bullets.....Bullseye.....2.5gr.....700fps
.......................W-231........3.0gr.....700fps
.......................Unique.......4.0gr.....770f ps

158gr bullets....Bullseye......2.2gr.....640fps
......................W-231.........2.7gr.....670fps
......................Unique........4.0gr......750 fps

195gr bullets....Bullseye......2.0gr.....610fps
......................W-231........2.5gr.....630fps
......................Unique........3.0gr.....620f ps

These are supposed to be safe with both Colt & S&W medium frame revolvers and the Webly & Enfield revolvers. My only .38 S&W (short) revolver is a break-top S&W, so I don't load to these recommendations.

[Catch22]

From Handloading magazine, issue #122 (July/Aug 1986)'

Correct bullet size is 0.360". .38 Special bullets at 0.357" give poor accuracy unless they are hollow-base.

146gr bullets.....Bullseye.....2.5gr.....700fps
.......................W-231........3.0gr.....700fps
.......................Unique.......4.0gr.....770f ps

158gr bullets....Bullseye......2.2gr.....640fps
......................W-231.........2.7gr.....670fps
......................Unique........4.0gr......750 fps

195gr bullets....Bullseye......2.0gr.....610fps
......................W-231........2.5gr.....630fps
......................Unique........3.0gr.....620f ps

These are supposed to be safe with both Colt & S&W medium frame revolvers and the Webly & Enfield revolvers. My only .38 S&W (short) revolver is a break-top S&W, so I don't load to these recommendations.

Appreciate that! I had see that or another article cited but could never find a copy.

[Buckshot]

.............Not that this will contribute much to the thread, but I have 3 revolvers dedicated to the mighty striving (much underappreciated) 38 S&W :-)

http://www.fototime.com/8F3A1A58BE06A7F/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/3242183B1B0826F/standard.jpg

This one went to Australia. The blued Victory model above probably didn't leave the States. No Gov't property marking. Does have the 'V' serial prefix. Of course where ever it went, or what it did, it didn't do it with THOSE grips :-)

http://www.fototime.com/F07416FB0193628/standard.jpg

Sometime in the past had run a 38 Special reamer into the chambers. Did a good job too, and had no effect on shooting the 38 S&W cartridges, which it does very well, too. My father bought this pistol in the early '60's from a California Highway Patrol Officer for $60. He still had a blue and yellow half box of Peters factory ammo when he gave it to me.

http://www.fototime.com/86C54337F979FDD/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/CD1F80B43CD4C22/standard.jpg

Last but certainly not least is this lovely old Iver Johnson DA-SA break open 5 shot pistol. It's in quite nice condition with an almost 'Like New' bore.

http://www.fototime.com/9877DF39C588BA8/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/15427C2B47E63FD/standard.jpg

The above is the Iver Johnson benched at 25 yards. The load was the Lyman 150gr 35863 wadcutter cast of pure lead .363" tumble lubed over 1.6grs of Red Dot. Velocity was a blistering 510 fps. With the tiny little 'V' notch on the top latch, and a razor thin front blade, my eyeballs were almost bleeding from the effort.

http://www.fototime.com/3B773CE97D573A2/standard.jpg

The above are some of the boolits I've used in the 38 S&W (all 3 revolvers). From the left is the Lyman 200gr RNPB, the Lyman 35863. At that OAL which is the same as a flush seated slug in the 38 Special, I can use 38 Special loads in the 2 Victory models. Next are a couple 100gr DEWC's from a 6 cavity Lee group buy. The RN slugs are also from a Lee GB in a 6 cavity set of blocks. Cast of very soft lead they are exactly 146grs. Next is one of the 146gr slugs loaded, then a factory Colt 'New Police', and a 38 Special case.

..............Buckshot

[Catch22]

Well, I took her out today and did some shooting with some loads. Didn't look for accuracy results, more to get an idea of where it hits in relation to POA and looking at pressures.

I did loads with two powders. Unique in 0.1 increments from 2.8-3.1 and W-231 in the same increments from 2.3-2.5 These were pushing 200 gr. 0.261 pills from Matt's Bullets.

The Unique looked promising. I had one primer that had soot around it and inside the primer pocket and a couple sporadic punctured primers. No rhyme or reason I could figure out.

The W231 I ended up with signs of overpressure. The first couple of loads it was sporadic, but pretty common on the last batch that was loaded at 2.5.

All of them hit about 6" below POA at about 20 yards. I'm not sure where these things were sighted in, but it appears I've got some issues there to look at sometime down the road.

[Larry Gibson]

Might check out this thread. More testing done yesterday with Unique powder to be added to that thread today or tomorrow.

Larry Gibson

https://www.goodsteelforum.com/forum/cast-bullets/13897-38-s-w-pressure-tests

[Catch22]

Might check out this thread. More testing done yesterday with Unique powder to be added to that thread today or tomorrow.

Larry Gibson

https://www.goodsteelforum.com/forum/cast-bullets/13897-38-s-w-pressure-tests

I appreciate that Larry!I've never heard of that site until now. Will definitely have a look!