30-30 10gr unique 170gr gc boolit shoots way low

[roberts1]

How low you ask? Try 6" at 15 yards with the rear sight all the way up. Shoots factory just fine. Winchester model 94 10gr unique and a lee 170gc boolit. Im not exactly sure where to start looking for my problem here. I thought id have at least a usable load or a baseline or something. On the positive side im saving a fortune on targets.

[nagantguy]

That sounds a bit low, though a "gallery type" load like this will print low if the sights are regulated to factory fodder. If you want a light plinker load I'd had very good luck with many rifles in several calibers with h4895, it does well and is safe reduced and does very well in full power cast loads. Not sure what to tell you with your unique load, 10 grains of it is the sweet spot in my winny 94.

[rsrocket1]

How were the groups? How many shots did you shoot. Of course, this was on a rest and not offhand right?
Being that much off, you should move the target back to 30 yards and aim 13" high and hit the bullseye, accounting for 0.8" bullet drop at 30 yards with a 1400 fps C309-170-F bullet. If that happens, something is off kilter.

[Bird]

roberts1, is the 15 yards a typo? did you mean 150 yds?

[Hick]

The question would be how high do you set the rear sight for factory loads. Is is a ways up for them also? If so, check the height of your front sight. There are a variety of front sight heights available for the Model 94. I had a relatively tall front sight (0.5") and had to reduce to 0.35" when I started shooting cast loads down around 1000 fps. If you can find a front sight that lets you shoot factory at 100 yards or more with the rear sight all the way down, then you may have enough room to raise the rear sight and get the low velocity loads on the paper.

[newton]

I use 8 grains of unique with that boolit. It shoots lower than full power loads for sure, but not out of sight range low. Something is not right.

Could it still be climbing at that close of range? Maybe try 25-50 yards?

[roberts1]

not a typo fifteen yards and yes off a bench. started at 25 figured it was low brought it back and yep just hitting the bottom of the paper. This gun was given to my son by my father in law who bought it used. Someone adjusted the windage with im guessing a hammer because the dovetail on the front sight is a bit mangled however we had it out this fall and shot some factory loads at around 75 yards with no issues. Recoil was milder than the factory loads as i expected but things need to come wayyy up. I wouldnt really call what were able to get on paper a group but time was short and once i figured out is was so low i didnt continue. Maybe a 1" tall sight ramp... thanks for the replies everyone

[TCLouis]

Somehow at 15 yards I just can not imagine how this is happening.

It kind of defies anything I have ever had happen.

[marshall623]

Sounds familiar . My rem 700 in 308 150 Lee FN'S over 13 gr. Unique shoot real low . The same boolit over RL7 or SR 4759 shoots not far from factory . I would try a few with a slower powder and see what happens. Just my $.02

[edctexas]

It does sound strange. I just shot some 165gr ranch dog from 30-30 with 8 gr of Unique. at 25 yd it printed about 3" low. I'll try some with more Unique in a few days.

Ed C

[Bird]

The question would be how high do you set the rear sight for factory loads. Is is a ways up for them also? If so, check the height of your front sight. There are a variety of front sight heights available for the Model 94. I had a relatively tall front sight (0.5") and had to reduce to 0.35" when I started shooting cast loads down around 1000 fps. If you can find a front sight that lets you shoot factory at 100 yards or more with the rear sight all the way down, then you may have enough room to raise the rear sight and get the low velocity loads on the paper.

Thats the way to do it. At a guess if you set the rifle up as above, I would bet you will still need a lower front sight. I would try and get a front sight that would hit 3'' higher or more at 100yd target. The unique cast load has a rainbow trajectory compared to that of factory ammo. Set up as I have suggested, you would shoot over a 50 yard target by 5'' or more.
I have the same problem even using a tang sight at max elevation. Using the bullet and load combination as above, the only real way I know of getting good accuracy is to be good at judging distances, and having a tall rear tang sight for enough adjustment.

[roberts1]

Thanks for the suggestions. I knew they wouldnt be like factory loads i just didnt think theyd be that far off. I think ill find a slower powder to experiment with.

[roberts1]

Yeah i was a bit dumbfounded myself. Perhaps some rifle powder is in order here to get things closer to where they should be. Ill measure the front sight also and see what I can come up with. My first notion was to simply shim up the rear sight ramp or even make a new one that is taller.

[Bird]

roberts1,
I had the time to rethink your problem, and it is not your load. For you to be shooting that low at 15 yards something else is wrong. Front sight is way too high, maybe a ramp sight with too high insert in place? What length barrel do you have? Has it been replaced? Is the barrel bent?

[roberts1]

I didnt bring along any factory ammo to compare but i think maybe i should. The front sight is 3/8" tall and the barrel is 20". I guess it is possible the front sight was replaced. When we got it the spring and cup were missing from the ammo tube and looking at the screws somebody not very handy may have taken the gun apart at one time.

[roberts1]

I did a little looking my sight is .462 tall measured from the bottom of the dovetail to the top of the sight. I found one that is only .290 tall and i think for $8.00 it is definately worth trying.

[gwpercle]

I shoot that same boolit and same load out of my model 94 Winchester, I only had to move the rear sight one notch from factory ammo setting.
Don't understand what's going on .
Gary

[jimb16]

I use a 170gr gas checked in my .30-30 too. It shoots 6 inches low at 50 yards with that same load, but groups in just under 1 inch. Something else must be going on for it to be shooting that low at 15 yards.....

[gordie]

i've had good luck w/... "The Load".. C.E. Harris

[UBER7MM]

13 grains of Red Dot w/o filler. Unique tends to shoot a foot low in my experience.

[leadman]

You might want to shoot the factory ammo to check poi. Also be aware most lever guns are sensitive to what part of the gun is on the front rest. Most shoot best with front of the receiver on the front rest. Some lever guns shoot to different poi when the magazine is changing the weight distribution as the cartridge are cycled thru the gun.

[roberts1]

thanks for the idea leadman. ill give that a try. Those of you with the same rifle do you have the .462 tall front sight or a shorter one? My measurement is from the bottom of the dovetail to the top of the sight.

[Bird]

roberts1,
we don't know if we have the same rifle as you, as you have not given us enough info on it.
There are so many variables, that without the exact model variant you have its all a wild guess. A picture of your rifle or carbine would be of help.
Here are a couple of links to help you. You may need a 0.360''
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/lid=15908/GunTechdetail/Winchester-M94-Front-Sight-Blade-Specs

http://www.midwestgunworks.com/page/mgwi/PROD/W94DFS

[Bird]

This should also help.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4P-wt84UtY

[Hick]

Roberts1

On my Model 1894 I had a 0.500 front sight and had to go down to 0.350 to get on paper with my cast loads

Hick

[scattershot]

You mentioned the tool marks on the front sight ramp. My guess is that a previous owner had a peep sight on it at one time, which would require a taller front sight. The tipoff here would be that you have to elevate the rear sight to the top of its range to shoot factory ammo.

[gnostic]

You might want to check out the guy on youtube that shoots that load successfully. I remember him having a 'tang sight on his lever gun. His handloads probably are shooting low as well and he fixed it by adding a tang sight...

[leebuilder]

Interesting, I have been testing a lot of loads in 303, lately I have been using 6.5gr of titegroup, in my rifle I started to get leading so I used smaller Dia Boolits the groups shrunk and my poi went up about 4" and the leading stopped, so maybe boolit size could be a cause? When I shot cast I will raise my sight setting to 600m I almost always hit a standard size paper sheet at 50 or a 100m. Just my observations.
Be well

[Jeffrey]

I have a cat sneeze load for my 30-30 (3.5gr BI under a 150gr LEE) that impacts 12" (one foot) lower than my full power condom loads at 35 yards. Fortunately it takes one full revolution of the scope's elevation turret to make the adjustment. I suspect barrel vibration / harmonics plays in this.

[roberts1]

thanks so much guys I found an assortment of front sights with fiber optic beads for cheap im going to switch it out and take some factory ammo along for a base line. The video of how to determine sight height was especially helpful. Ill double check mine before taking it out.

[hithard]

hows your powder burning....if your not getting a clean burn you could very well be pushing the boolit out the barrel and not shooting it...

try crimping the boolit a bit more, or sizing the boolit a little bigger, or both. Don't quit on this load, there is something going on here that you need to learn from. I had a similar problem with my 338 federal. is your powder good?

keep playing with this load, it's just to time tested by to many to say it doesn't work.

[roberts1]

thanks for the encouragement. Im not giving up. Ill get it dialed in.

[JMax]

I have a Win 94 made in 1978 that shoots factory fine but the same load using a 173 gr Lyman w/10 grains of Unique shot way low. I put in a minimum height fiber front sight (about .290) and a Williams peep rear (hate the factory buck horn sights anyway) and now get 3-5" groups at 100 yds. A great load and loads of fun to shoot. Ran through about 75 last Sat and had a blast:-)

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Start with what Leadman said in post #21.

Make sure the rifle is resting on the forearm, and not the magazine. Hold the rifle against your shoulder. A rifle laying loose on the bags will usually shoot different than when you are holding it like you would when hunting.

Check where the factory ammo is printing using the same setup.

I've had better luck with 10 gr of Red Dot or Green Dot with that same bullet.

[roberts1]

Thanks will do. If it gets above 25 degrees here ill give that a try.

[ProudOkie]

How would this perform as a hunting load on deer?