Ideal number six

[JoeH]

158879


I thought some might be interested in reloading as done at the dawn of the 20th century. This tool was all one needed to reload the 38-55 Marlin cartridge with black powder. It is non-adjustable and designed to work only with bullets from the attached mold and brass of the 2 1/8" length. It does not resize at all but only de-primes, re-primes and seats the bullet and crimps the case mouth. The bullet has no actual "crimp groove" but is designed to be crimped over the front band. With a compressed load of black powder the bullet could not recede more deeply into the case and the crimp is all that holds it. Bullets from the attached mold measure .377" and about 255 grains in a soft alloy. The rearmost hole in the handle is for bullet sizing but mine is so rusted out that a bullet just falls through. The de-priming pin pictured is one I cobbled together, since that pin is a loose part the old tools are seldom found with the original pin.

[ndnchf]

They are neat old tools. I have 5 or 6 of them. They work quite well when used as intended.

[JoeH]

I don't use mine for most reloading, modern bench mounted tools do have advantages but it is fun to play around with occasionally. Here's another photo showing the bullet as cast and seated and crimped.

[bedbugbilly]

I have a couple in several different calibers. The sizing holes on mine are nothing to brag about but the tools do work and are fun to use once in a while. I like the old Winchester tongs as well.

[ndnchf]

Here is my .32-20 earning it's keep.

http://i1277.photobucket.com/albums/y493/ndnchf/BPCR/32%20tool1_zps9o9qmpsu.jpg (http://s1277.photobucket.com/user/ndnchf/media/BPCR/32%20tool1_zps9o9qmpsu.jpg.html).

[labradigger1]

I use one occasionally for 25-20 ss. Mine is missing the decapping rod. They cast a nice boolit and size and prime great. They do not however crimp.

[Don Fischer]

I though about a 310 tool a number of different time's. Figured it would be handy to take hunting or camping with me. But somehow I never do. I can have more ammo loaded up to go than I'll shoot anyway. But still think about it now and then. Well did. Looked on Lyman's site and that 310 tool and a set of dies is expensive.

[JoeH]

I use one occasionally for 25-20 ss. Mine is missing the decapping rod. They cast a nice boolit and size and prime great. They do not however crimp.

Interesting, I guess maybe they varied with time or by caliber since my 38/55 tool does not resize the case but does crimp, assuming one is using the original 2 1/8" brass, the Winchester 2.085" brass is too short to crimp and since crimp it the only thing to retain the bullet in the unsized case neck it just doesn't work with the shorter brass. The decapping rod was missing from my tool as it is from most of the antiques, since it is a loose part it's rare to find one complete, I had to jerry rig one to work.

[JoeH]

I though about a 310 tool a number of different time's. Figured it would be handy to take hunting or camping with me. But somehow I never do. I can have more ammo loaded up to go than I'll shoot anyway. But still think about it now and then. Well did. Looked on Lyman's site and that 310 tool and a set of dies is expensive.

Expensive no kidding and it doesn't seem justified. I don't see why the 310 dies should cost so much more than normal 7/8" dies and the 310 tong tool itself shouldn't cost more than a basic Lee hand press but it does. Years ago I had a tong tool for 30/30 and it worked fine but when I moved up to a bench mounted press I retired the tong tool. I still have the handles but no idea what happened to the dies.

[Green Frog]

Although I've bought and sold many 310 tools and dies and a few #3 and #10 tools over the years, I haven't had much interest in the tools with integral moulds because I just can't see subjecting myself to holding onto something hot enough to be used for casting molten lead. Wrapping the handle and using heavy leather gloves may help, but I still shudder at the idea. The concept is neat, though, and having the whole reloading set in one compact package has its virtues. It did my little froggie heart good to see this thread on this particular forum since most of the recent threads have had little or nothing to do with the theme of Casting or Reloading Hand Tools! Does anyone have any of the other models of the early Ideal tong tools they would like to share? :coffeecom

Froggie

[Chill Wills]

It does my heart good to see this too!

Ebay just sold a tool I had been aware of but never looked at. A number #6 with interchangeable mold blocks. It was in almost new condition. Out of my price range.

About the hot - mold attached - casting part. I have done it and in some cases cast 50 - 75 bullets at a time. I did not find it much harder than other casting but we are all different. I think at the time these were produced (I am not telling you anything you don't know here) people used them for more practical reasons. Casting a dozen or 30 good bullets put you and your rifle back in business.

I have a few - I will post pic's and I hope more of you do too! This is a neat area of interest. I keep my eye out for the decapping tool but as said, they are rare. Often, one with the tool more than doubles the selling price.

[Chill Wills]

159336159338159339
Here are some pic's of a #6 adjustable for the 45 GOV. 405
It crimps the case mouth and will resize the bullet. No need to resize the bullet as it casts almost round .457" bullets and really I want all the size I can get in a BP case. I would like it to cast at .459" but .... Cast soft at 30-1 Pb-Sn and loaded over a case full of BP, then crimped - this tool makes good ammo and both the Winchester 1885 and 1886 operate well with them.
The point of impact is correct on the ladder sights on the 1886 - Amazing!

[Chill Wills]

I tried to edit out that out of focus pic but I ended up messing the post up more....

[labradigger1]

I like the integrated molds, as mentioned above you can cast about 100 small calibers before your bare hands get hot. I use them for single shot rifles so ammo lasts a long time.

[.22-10-45]

Years ago at an antique gun show I picked up a no. 6 Ideal for about 10 bucks. was marked .22-20-45. Everyone told me it was for the modern Hornet..but a regular Hornet shell would rattle aound loose in chamber. Only later did I learn it was for the Harwood Hornet..a sort of souped up black powder round for improved eastern woodchuck hunting. The integeral mould drops a 45gr. slug with deep square lube grooves. dia. from 20-1 lead/tin is a bit over .228". Judging for Ideal Handbooks from that period, I believe it is a # 22834 mould. Those old timers must have been tough! Even with thick insulated welding gloves..those cast steel handles get hot!

[Chill Wills]

Years ago at an antique gun show I picked up a no. 6 Ideal for about 10 bucks. was marked .22-20-45.

Hmmm, .22-10-45, so no doubt, this is where you got your handle from.
Can you post a picture of your Ideal Tool and maybe the two different brass cases? That would be interesting to see. I like the Hornet - in all its flavors.

All, come on guys, I know you have them. Post some pictures of these tools. Especially the ones we don't see every day.

[JoeH]

I wear welders gantlets when casting with any mold but the #6 handles still get pretty hot if I try to cast more than 25 or 30 at a time. I suspect that back in it's day people didn't waste ammo on frivolous shooting at mere paper targets so 20 rounds would be a good supply.
I'm glad this thread has caught some air and taken off, I love old tools of any sort but especially those related to shooting and reloading. For that reason I won't post a photo of my "other" number six which would break your heart. Shopping for molds on ebay I found a number six which some dastardly villain had cut off behind the hinge in order to attach wooden handles. It is in much better shape than the one picture here and is actually the mold I used to cast the bullets pictured in my second post.

[Chill Wills]

Please post the picture of the "other". They are all worth looking at!
I cast about 50 bullets for the 38-56 Winchester yesterday in an Ideal #6 non-adjustable tool. With heavy gloves it is not a problem. Maybe winter in the unheated side of my garage shed has something to do with the over all comfort.:-)

BTW- Ebay has someone selling a large number of what I am sure are reproduction, cal specific, decapping pins made in the same pattern. I do not think they were made for the resale market but maybe for someone's own tools sometime ago. They are not marked with the Ideal stamp. Maybe someone can comment on these.

[JoeH]

OK Chill Wills, you asked for it so don't be shocked. If the rest of the tool was in as good condition as the mold it is a real pity that it was cut off.

[Bent Ramrod]

People didn't have the sense that these things were rare and valuable antiques back in the good old days. They were frequently seen as just obsolete junk, if useful at all, to remake into something they needed right away. Like turning milsurps into sporters or single shots into varmint rifles.

If you want to see "other" tong tools, here's one that is not often encountered. It's the Marlin Fire Arms Reloading Tool, invented and patented by J. M. Browning. It casts boolits, punches wads, digs out Berdan primers and seats new ones, and seats the boolits in the cartridge cases. This one does the .40-60 shell.

160174 160175

I haven't had the time or the chutzpah to try to cast from it. If you notice, the mould is almost in the center of all that mass, which would indicate that everything would have to be blistering hot before a nonwrinkled boolit could be hoped for.

[Chill Wills]

Wow! Bent ramrod. That is a good one! I will have to dig out Chamberlan's book. I wish his book went into more detail on use and function. In talking with him at the gunshow I think he is more of a collector than user. Just an impression.

JoeH - thanks for the picture of the amputated tool! That is an OUCH for sure! At least you are getting some good out of it.
I'll keep an eye out for the rest of it.....:kidding: we can weld it back on.

[enfield]

The ones I have look like at some point in they're life they were used as a hammer. Some people just should not use tools.

[Bent Ramrod]

I actually saw someone at a Gun Show using an Ideal mould (integral handle type) as a pair of pliers to unscrew the takedown screw on a Winchester 03 Autoloader. One sees plenty of evidence of abuse, as enfield points out, but doesn't often witness the act itself. It was a round ball mould, so I wasn't interested in it, but still, it was pretty pristine and sad to see. I have a Number 6 in .32-40 that somebody sawed the mould blocks off of. He ground the surface round on the tool so it looked like a nonadjustable No.3, except I don't think there is such a thing. No sense whatever in doing so; if he didn't want to use the mould he could have just ignored it. Maybe he welded the blocks to a pair of handles like JoeH's, but why carefully dress off the surface on the tong part? I find it's still handy as a decapper/recapper at the range.

Here's a Number 6 in .40-65. It has the Single Adjustable Chamber:

160873

And here's a number 4, in .38 Special, with detachable mould blocks:

160874

I don't know why the customer got a detachable block version of the tool and retained the nonadjustable chamber. He would have had trouble seating any other boolit design than the one he already had, and the use of the tool as mould handles for other blocks would be pretty painful.

It was always nice to pick up one of these tools as a souvenir of a Gun Show. But they're getting pretty scarce and expensive any more.