50-70 Gov't

[Jokester]

Hello everyone!
First post here, as I am a new member.
Anyway I recently became the owner of a NY State Militia Remington Rolling Block chambered in 50-70. The previous owner used it as a shooter using low pressure smokeless loads. I want to load her up with the holy black. This is not my first firearm but this is my first foray into reloading.

I purchased 50-70 brass from starline, and a lee mould that drops .515 bullets at 450 grains in weight. I believe this is what the army standard was. 50-70-450. I have already cast 30 bullets using a 40-1 alloy of lead and tin.
I tried to use a set of lyman dies, but the mouth expanding die didn't come close to the .515 I need to seat the bullets without shaving lead off the bullet. So I ordered a .513-.517 custom expander from buffalo arms. Even this expander is a little tight and I still get a little shaving. Now, buffalo arms is out of larger expanders at the moment, but I'm hankering to shoot this beauty. I have also been reading some negative reviews about the Lyman dies.

So my question is does anybody here reload for 50-70 and if so what dies do you use and do you have any tips or tricks for reloading this cartridge?
Also, I know that the previous owner sized his bullets to .512 to make the lyman dies work, but I want to keep this rifle historically accurate for now and use the 50-70-450 and a .515 bullet, unless I get advice to do so otherwise.
I am a total new guy to not only reloading but also to BPCR reloading so a primer (no pun intended) would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you

[jugulater]

Well welcome to the Forum, i also shoot a New York State Roller In 50-70, but mine was sporterized back in the day.

That Lee Mold is perfect for the slow twist these early guns have and my NYS sporter loves it, mine drops a bit fat at around .516-.517. the only other mold i would use is the 450Grn hollow base that NOE makes for the 50-70, as I believe it was specifically made for these antques.

As for Dies i use a lyman set that has a custom made expander plug that perfectly fits my boolits, and i turn the sizing die way out because it sizes the brass way too much. But my lyman set is pretty old and I haven't used any newer lyman dies.

I would suggest Slugging your barrel just to see what your Grooves and bore are, these old guns vary all over the place.

There was a book called The 50-70 Shooters Handbook but midway says its been discontinued.. i guess ill have to go dig mine out and read through it...

[Jokester]

Thank you! I read a lot of the topics here, so I finally joined today.
How was your rifle sporterized? I assume a heavy barrel was added and the foregip shortened?
Also do you size your bullets at all or do you stuff them into the brass as is? And to slug my barrel could I use some of my bullets I cast or would I need to go and buy some roundballs?
And I was trying to find that very book but its something ridiculous like $300 on amazon.
Thank you for your response!

[jugulater]

$300! my goodness I didn't pay more than $40 for my copy!

For slugging the barrel a pure lead ball is recommend simply because it's easier to hammer through a barrel, i suggest not using anything else unless you want a hard time.

i run my Boolits as cast because thats how my gun likes them.

my NYS Rolling block has had the trigger modified and the stocks cut down, the rear sight was gone when i got it ,so I attached a rear ladder sight (I forgot the proper name for it) I suspect it was a parts gun because the only numbers that match are the barrel and receiver. the only reason i bought it was because the bore is in amazing shape.

[Jokester]

Wow that's an amazing looking rifle! Looks just like mine except its just missing some furniture. :-)
And when slugging, is the ball pushed from the chamber or muzzle?
And thank you again for your help!

[krems]

Jokester,
no sense running a .515 bullet down the barrel unless you have to. Slug the barrel to get your dimensions. Pure lead round ball as mentioned works best but one of your 40-1 cast bullets lubed w/SPG or similar should work as well. I use a wooden dowel when I slug the barrels. I actually like to size the bullets while applying lube as I like them round so I get more uniform case neck tension. Hopefully your barrel slugs .512-.513" So the dies would work and all you would need to do is resize the bullets. I shoot a lot of black and I like my bullets to be sized spot on or .001" undersized with black and soft lead. Don't worry, the bullet will bump up to diameter. If your expander die is not correct you are going to deform or resize that soft bullet anyway trying to seat it. Use a good lube(SPG for ex.), and 3F black. No wad for me in the 50-70. I shoot a 50-70 Shiloh Sharps. If you want to see a good blood trail hit something with that 50-70........good luck. Give us a report.

Krems

[krems]

Jug,
Nice looking roller!.....the only rifle I ever regretted selling was my 50-70 Lone Star Rolling Block. Man I miss that rifle!.......got caught in a weak moment and someone talked me out of it. It's hard to find a good bore in one like yours.

Krems

[Jokester]

Jokester,
no sense running a .515 bullet down the barrel unless you have to. Slug the barrel to get your dimensions. Pure lead round ball as mentioned works best but one of your 40-1 cast bullets lubed w/SPG or similar should work as well. I use a wooden dowel when I slug the barrels. I actually like to size the bullets while applying lube as I like them round so I get more uniform case neck tension. Hopefully your barrel slugs .512-.513" So the dies would work and all you would need to do is resize the bullets. I shoot a lot of black and I like my bullets to be sized spot on or .001" undersized with black and soft lead. Don't worry, the bullet will bump up to diameter. If your expander die is not correct you are going to deform or resize that soft bullet anyway trying to seat it. Use a good lube(SPG for ex.), and 3F black. No wad for me in the 50-70. I shoot a 50-70 Shiloh Sharps. If you want to see a good blood trail hit something with that 50-70........good luck. Give us a report.

Krems

Wow thank you krems.
As I said I am new to all of this and thus far all my sources have said run a slightly large bullet. So after I slug the barrel I should cast the same bullet diameter as the lands right? Or should I cast same diameter as the grooves?
Also should I be using even softer alloy? Just 100% pure lead?
Do you use a lubrisizer to lube and size? And is there any reason to run a wad or in your experience is it just unnecessary?
Thank you!

[jugulater]

.001-.002 over groove is usually what is said to work best. if you use blackpowder it will bump up to fit anyways.

when lubing i pan lube and use a modified case to remove the excess lube. but it can be done with a lubrisizer, and i much prefer my Lyman 450 over pan lubing for high volume.

For alloy, i think yours will work fine, i use a wheelwheight and Tin mixture and i get 2 MOA groups when i actually shoot on paper, although I prefer knocking over steel, and popping milk jugs.

and when slugging driving from chamber to muzzle will negate the risk of damaging the crown.

i basically just agreed with everything Krems said, i guess im just slow to the draw!

My Roller ain't as pretty as some, but she will still hit anything i can see!

i really wanna go shoot my 50-70 now, guess its time to load some up.

[Jokester]

.001-.002 over groove is usually what is said to work best. if you use blackpowder it will bump up to fit anyways.

when lubing i pan lube and use a modified case to remove the excess lube. but it can be done with a lubrisizer, and i much prefer my Lyman 450 over pan lubing for high volume.

For alloy, i think yours will work fine, i use a wheelwheight and Tin mixture and i get 2 MOA groups when i actually shoot on paper, although I prefer knocking over steel, and popping milk jugs.

and when slugging driving from chamber to muzzle will negate the risk of damaging the crown.

i basically just agreed with everything Krems said, i guess im just slow to the draw!

My Roller ain't as pretty as some, but she will still hit anything i can see!

i really wanna go shoot my 50-70 now, guess its time to load some up.

Thank you very much jugulator! My next step is to buy some roundballs and dowel and we'll see what the actual diameter of my bore is.
Thank you for all the help.
And your rifle is definitely pretty!

[jugulater]

im looking forward to seeing your results. its always nice to see people still care about these old guns.

one more thing, for best accuracy you may have to seat the boolit out a bit long, i like to seat my Lee 450s out one Lube groove.

[enfield]

I shoot the Lee 450 unsized in mine, I also don't resize the brass, just clean, reload and shoot.

[Jokester]

im looking forward to seeing your results. its always nice to see people still care about these old guns.

one more thing, for best accuracy you may have to seat the boolit out a bit long, i like to seat my Lee 450s out one Lube groove.

Just for laughs I actually just tried to make one round. I used the custom expander, and then used a chamfer tool to give it just a slight chamfer and I was able to seat the bullet! It was very tight, but it doesn't look like there was any lead shaved off. I didn't bother with a crimp, I just seated the round and it is tight enough that I cannot remove or spin it. However, the seating die left a nice ring about a quarter inch below the tip of the bullet.
Does this mean that my bullet is still too tight and it takes to much force to press it into the case or is the punch just too small?

[Jokester]

I shoot the Lee 450 unsized in mine, I also don't resize the brass, just clean, reload and shoot.

what dies do you use? is it a tight fit in the brass? or does it seat smoothly?

[Bad Ass Wallace]

im looking forward to seeing your results. its always nice to see people still care about these old guns.

one more thing, for best accuracy you may have to seat the boolit out a bit long, i like to seat my Lee 450s out one Lube groove.

My load is a full 70gns of Swiss No1 with the Lyman 450gn boolit from my 1874 Sharps - 10 shots at 100yds over a bench!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/5070targetA.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/5070targetA.jpg.html)

[Jokester]

My load is a full 70gns of Swiss No1 with the Lyman 450gn boolit from my 1874 Sharps - 10 shots at 100yds over a bench!



What diameter are your bullets? Are they .515? If not what are they?

[jugulater]

Jokester, get a Micrometer or some Calipers and measure your boolits, your expander, the inside diameter of your cases before and after expanding. those measurements along with the measurements of the barrel can give us some answers to your questions.

Wallace, isn't it amazing the accuracy that something classified as "Obsolete" can achieve.

[dlbarr]

You can get The 50-70 Shooter's Handbook for $24.50 + 3.50 S&H from:

Cistern Publishing Company
14010 North State Hwy 95
Flatonia, TX 78941
(361)865-0030

Apparently, it is also in stock at Buffalo Arms Co. in Idaho.

[Jokester]

Jokester, get a Micrometer or some Calipers and measure your boolits, your expander, the inside diameter of your cases before and after expanding. those measurements along with the measurements of the barrel can give us some answers to your questions.

Wallace, isn't it amazing the accuracy that something classified as "Obsolete" can achieve.

I live on the east coast so I need to wait for the snow to stop and buy the roundball and dowels, but as soon as I do, I will update this thread. Thank you for all the help!
I can't wait to shoot this beauty and you're getting me on the right road. Thank you!

[Jokester]

You can get The 50-70 Shooter's Handbook for $24.50 + 3.50 S&H from:

Cistern Publishing Company
14010 North State Hwy 95
Flatonia, TX 78941
(361)865-0030

Apparently, it is also in stock at Buffalo Arms Co. in Idaho.

Couldn't find it at BACo but I actually just found it at S&S Firearms! Thank you!

[blackpowder man]

Welcome to the forum. Everytime I get brass for my .38-55, .40-65, or .45-70 it is always a bit small at the mouth for the first loading. Even using fhe expander it is more of a squeeze than I like for soft bookits. I don't size them after they are fired and my boolits are a press fit that doesn't require a seating die. If I am hunting I use a different boolit with a flat nose and crimp them so I don't loss a boolit. Also if you load them into the rifling the boolit will stick if you unload the rifle. For target shooting and plinking this is not an issue. I think you'll find a lot of bpcr shooters here not sizing their brass and depriming with a universal decapper. Good luck, that should be a fun and rewarding journey you're starting. Lots of knowledge to be learned here.

[Washington1331]

I use the lee 515-450 mold for my trapdoor in 50/70. I think that I have the RCBS dies for it. The first time I fired the brass, I just used the regular expander die to the point where I didn't see a lot of lead shavings. My 50/70 loves 1F Goex, and a load of 70 grains ensured ample bump up to the bore diameter. I headed to the range and just had fun blowing holes in a target at 50 yards. After the inital firing, I just used a universal decapper die and didn't bother sizing the brass anymore since they were fire formed to the chamber. I use the expander die as a compression die to compress the powder and vegie wad to the appropriate depth of my boolit and just finger seat it. I put a very slight crimp to just prevent the boolit from backing out under normal handling conditions. I saw a massive increase in accuracy and was holding about a 5" group at a hundred yards.

Later I tried the NOE 515HB mold. If you go that route, I learned that you really have to get the hollow base pins hot to get good quality boolits. The extra efforts were well worth the results as I found that my groups decreased to about 3".

Just remember that when you're dealing with black powder you don't want any airspace under the boolit and compressing it a bit will decrease your fouling. Also make sure that you're using black powder lube on your boolits. SPG is really good, but expensive. I've had good luck with emerts lube, which I make myself using beeswax, crisco, and cooking oil. I've had good luck with 50% beeswax, 40% crisco and 10% olive oil (by weight). That mix seems to keep the fouling soft for me.

The 50/70 is a fun round. I find that I started taking my 45/70s to the range less an less in favor of the 50. Best of luck with your endeavor. PM me if you have any additional questions.

[StrawHat]

Every time I see someone recommend a wood dowel to pound a ball down a bore I cringe. As a part time gunsmith, I can tell you when the wood dowel breaks, it is a bitch to get the pieces out. A long flat pointed drill helps. It's your bore but I recommend an aluminum or brass dowel a bit under bore.

Kevin

[Ed in North Texas]

Welcome to the club. I have two NYSM RBs, one as issued with a perfect bore and pretty darn good exterior and the other a "shooter" with perfect bore, brown exterior and the butt replaced many years ago by the look of the wood. And the guy who replaced it never finished the rough shaped replacement other than fitting to the receiver, guess one of these days I ought to rasp and sand it down, finish it and find a buttplate for it). Apparently it isn't terribly unusual to find the NYSM RBs with really good bores, which is sort of surprising given that they served from 1872/73 to 1895 with the NY State Militia. Mine are both far more accurate than these old eyes can shoot with open sights.

Edited to add:

Here's the best my old eyes can do with the NYSM, 7 shot group - Blew one and wish I had included a ruler:

158967

70 grains KIK 2f, .030 card wad, Lyman 515141 sized .515 w/home brewed lube Did not clean between shots.


2d Edit: Forgot to add that I bought a set of Lyman dies a few years back. Found the M die body too small to allow the .50-70 case to enter without sizing it down. Sent it back and Lyman sent a new die which worked perfectly, no problems with the expander at all.

[montana_charlie]

... sounded off on the wrong subject ...

[krems]

Lots of good advice given here. I can see where STrawHat is coming from when he talks about using not using a dowel to pound a slug down the barrel. You do need to be careful. I make my own hunting arrows so I always have wooden dowels shafts lying around. I use 3 different lengths when pounding a slug down the barrel. If you use a dowel Keep them as short as possible when starting out then use the longer ones as the bullet slides down the barrel. Careful not to whack the muzzle if your pushing from muzzle to chamber. Short controlled blows with the heaviest hammer work best. I'd use one of your 40-1 bullets rubbed down with bullet lube. I'd even whack the bullet once to increase its diameter a bit to be sure it's larger then the bore. The hardest part is getting the bullet started if going from muzzle to chamber. I even like to run a wet patch with a little gun oil down the barrel prior to pushing the slug through. Be careful when the bullet exits as you don't want it to fall on something hard and ruin the slug. Once you get the bore dimensions and a couple of fired case dimensions you can tweek your reloading dies and methods to turn that rifle into a shooting machine.

In my 50-70 I use a mix of Rcbs and Lyman dies. My load with a 485 gr FP bullet is 63 grains Swiss 3F, rem 9 1/2 primer, no wad, SPG lube, .511 bullet 30-1 alloy, very slight compression, and minimal neck tension. I neck size only. I also like to keep all grooves within the case and just enough crimp to get rid of the bell mouth. I use this mainly for hunting. I had to use 3f to get the velocity as my bullet sticks in the case more. I also like a lot of lube grooves on BP bullets as I hate cleaning between shots.......got a blow tube yet?

Keep us posted on the progress.

[GWM]

Later I tried the NOE 515HB mold. If you go that route, I learned that you really have to get the hollow base pins hot to get good quality boolits. The extra efforts were well worth the results as I found that my groups decreased to about 3".


Unfortunately that mold is out of stock and not available at NOE, until a group buy is organized. If 5 people would be interested it could get produced eventually. http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=44&products_id=437

[Jokester]

First off, I would like to thank everybody who has posted in this thread.

blackpowder man: Thank you for the input. I was told to not resize my brass. So I actually have been using my Lyman expander die with the decapping rod screwed in to decap the fired brass that came with the rifle. No contact with the brass and still being decapped.
Washington1331: Also thank you. I actually purchased a .50 caliber compression die from BACo and will use that to copmpress my powder, if need be. Also, a few people mentioned SPG lube so I picked some up and used that to slug my bore.
StrawHat: Couldn't find any aluminum or brass dowels so I used 7/16 hardwood dowels that fit sung in my bore and it went fine. Thank you for the advice!
Ed in North Texas: Thank you for your reply! My rifle has an outstanding bore, save for some VERY minor pitting in the last few inches before the muzzle.

Krems & Jugulator:

This is where it gets juicy. I went out today and picked up 7/16" hardwood dowels, hornady .530 round balls and a set of RCBS calipers.
Ran a patch down the bore dripping with birchwood casey. Slathered my roundballl in SPG and rammed her home from breech to muzzle. My calipers measure .506.
I was...not trusting of this reading as I had heard most military rifles had a wider bore and required larger bullets. So I slathered one of my own .515 bullets in SPG and got the same result.
I was still not convinced! Took one of my .515's squished in a vice till it was .540 and slugged her again.
.506 at the thickest...

Is this...normal or did I mess up somewhere? I can clearly see lands and grooves so I think the slugs were big enough. However that seems very slim..

159107159108

In the first picture the calipers are on the land of the second grease groove.
Is this definitely my bore diameter? Could anything else be mucking up my measurements? If so should I size my bullets to what .510? or .508? This changes everything.
Thank you!

EDIT: I was able to push the .515 slug through using my hand and just pushing on the dowels, like loading a muzzleloader.

[jugulater]

if the .515 slid through easily then something is very wrong. was there any tight spots? did you spin the slug around and look for the fattest part?

if theres any tight spots in the bore, or if it gets tighter towards the chamber you may have a fouling/lead buildup, something pretty common in a old gun with a oversized bore. if its such you will need a sturdy rod, a scrubber, and a really good fouling remover.

if none of the above causes a change, then im freaking stumped..

[Jokester]

if the .515 slid through easily then something is very wrong. was there any tight spots? did you spin the slug around and look for the fattest part?

if theres any tight spots in the bore, or if it gets tighter towards the chamber you may have a fouling/lead buildup, something pretty common in a old gun with a oversized bore. if its such you will need a sturdy rod, a scrubber, and a really good fouling remover.

if none of the above causes a change, then im freaking stumped..

The hardest part was pushing the bullet from the chamber into the barrel. But when I inspect the bore there doesn't seem to be any build up, and I can clearly see the rifling.

Once I actually got into the barrel was when I could just push it through myself.
Maybe my calipers are a lemon? I checked them on the .530 roundballs and they were accurate.
Also the bullet I cheched the calipers with was the .540 slug

[jugulater]

Try driving from muzzle to chamber, and see if it tightens up, i dont think a tight spot of .005 or so would be all too visible, especially if its a hard clump of lead.

spin one of your slugs between the jaws of the calibers and try to find the fattest spot you can. ive never heard of one of these guns slugging below .512ish and mine slugs somewhere between .515 and .516

[enfield]

Not a big fan of digital calipers, I prefer the outside drum style micrometers for measuring . As far as the earlier question about unsizing brass, I load with BP and a over powder card, drop in the bullet ( the case expands quite a bit in the chamber so the bullet is a loose fit ) then I use the Lyman sizing die with the decapping pin removed and just press the case into the die enough to squeeze it against the bullet so its not too loose ( not a crimp , but it keeps the bullet from falling out ). This way your not working the brass too much and theres no real need for a crimp in the single shot anyway.

[Jokester]

Try driving from muzzle to chamber, and see if it tightens up, i dont think a tight spot of .005 or so would be all too visible, especially if its a hard clump of lead.

spin one of your slugs between the jaws of the calibers and try to find the fattest spot you can. ive never heard of one of these guns slugging below .512ish and mine slugs somewhere between .515 and .516

I slugged her from muzzle to chamber and got the same .506
Then I did 4" from the muzzle, then driven back out to the muzzle.
Then I did 4" from the chamber and back out through the chamber.
When the calipers tightened down, not allowing the slug to spin both were .506.
When I spun the slugs, the muzzle end slug pushed the calipers to .508 and the chamber end pushed them to .507.
So I'm just gonna assume leading, right? I ran a patched jag with Hornady One-Shot Muzzleloader through, followed by dry till it was white.
Should I look into a de-leading agent and a good brush?

Okay so when I let the slugs spin freely they read .508. Then when I push them back down its .506.

[jugulater]

Calipers aren't perfectly accurate, but they work, but they will give funny measurements if you press on them. for best results use the looser measurement.

how did the slug driven 4" from the muzzle measure?

we could have a couple things going on here, it could be the calibers reading funny, or a leaded barrel.

How many Rifling grooves can you see?

[Jokester]

Calipers aren't perfectly accurate, but they work, but they will give funny measurements if you press on them. for best results use the looser measurement.

how did the slug driven 4" from the muzzle measure?

we could have a couple things going on here, it could be the calibers reading funny, or a leaded barrel.

How many Rifling grooves can you see?

Sorry left a key bit of info out.
The muzzle end pushed the calipers out to .508, spinning freely.
The chamber end pushed the calipers out to .507, spinning freely.
On the slug there are 5 grooves.
On the muzzle end of the barrel there are also 5 grooves.
HOWEVER on the chamber end there is 5 grooves but one is noticeably shallower. Also I'm not sure how deep the grooves should actually be but all of them are very shallow.

[jugulater]

Did the previous owner make any mention of the boolit size used and accuracy? obviously if he ran .511s through it and got 8" groups at 25 yards the barrel probably has lead packed in it. it has to be leaded to slug that small, because that barrel would have never passed inspection.

it might be time to run a brush down it and see if you can rake out some lead, if you do youre in for a fight.

i still think having the measurements checked with another measuring instrument like a Micrometer or a set of Dial Calipers just to make sure a wacky set of calibers isn't the issue is a good idea.

[Jokester]

Did the previous owner make any mention of the boolit size used and accuracy? obviously if he ran .511s through it and got 8" groups at 25 yards the barrel probably has lead packed in it. it has to be leaded to slug that small, because that barrel would have never passed inspection.

it might be time to run a brush down it and see if you can rake out some lead, if you do youre in for a fight.

i still think having the measurements checked with another measuring instrument like a Micrometer or a set of Dial Calipers just to make sure a wacky set of calibers isn't the issue is a good idea.

No mention of accuracy but the previous owner sized his bullets to .512 and used low power smokeless loads.
I've never de-leaded a barrel but I'm hitting it with a 20 guage brass brush and some bore solvent, some good sludge coming out.
I'll try and borrow a pair of micrometers or another set of calipers to double check though.

[jugulater]

Now we are making progress! if you start getting little shiny bits you got leading.

im looking forward to seeing what the issue is, either way we should be on our way to a good answer.

[Jokester]

Now we are making progress! if you start getting little shiny bits you got leading.

im looking forward to seeing what the issue is, either way we should be on our way to a good answer.

Okay, calling it a night for now. After destroying 2 20 guage brushes and using what little bore solvent I had, I slugged the barrel once more.
The last slug read .511 to spin freely. I locked the calipers to .511 and spun the slug and there are still spots where it's a little bit tight. Going to pick up some real lead remover and some better brushes and go at it again tomorrow!
There wasn't many pieces of shiny bits but definitely a few chunks.
Very happy to see I don't have a freak rifle. It just needed some tlc.

[jugulater]

Awesome! looks like maybe some nasty hard fouling build up was the cause of the issue.

Hopefully you can get her all cleaned up and slug it again to get your real measurements, then you are on your way to success.

old guns usually need a good bit of cleaning and care, some even have special needs, hopefully all your old timer needed was a good scrubbing.

[Jokester]

Awesome! looks like maybe some nasty hard fouling build up was the cause of the issue.

Hopefully you can get her all cleaned up and slug it again to get your real measurements, then you are on your way to success.

old guns usually need a good bit of cleaning and care, some even have special needs, hopefully all your old timer needed was a good scrubbing.

I wonder if this is over 100 year old lead or just the previous owners?
Any suggestions for a bore cleaner? I was going to get either birtchwood casey or hoppes foaming bore cleaner.
And again, thank you for all the help!

EDIT: just looked at the stickied thread in gunsmithing about deleading. Would the Chore-Boy Copper pads be safe to use?

[jugulater]

Yes, the chore-boy method is fine. you could very well be dealing with 100 years worth of junk, theres no telling what has been fired down that barrel since it was produced. my 50-70 had a TON of junk in the barrel, it was so bad it looked like a smoothbore, after a good bit of cleaning it turned out to have strong rifling with some mild pitting running the length of the barrel.

I use Ballistol for everything, including deleading, but I figure the Hoppes Foaming bore cleaner should work too.

it might be worth the hassle to pull the whole gun down, it may have a ton of gunk hiding in the action, rolling blocks will function fine, even if full of desert sand, i learned that lesson from a Egyptian Rolling Block..

[krems]

Joke,
If you have leading get the chore boy copper pads....I use them myself. Save your self a lot of grief as they really knock the lead out. Use one of your old brushes and wrap the copper around the brush. Gets the lead out really quick. I use Hoppes but any of the cleaners should work. Hopefully your bore cleans up nice. I hate leaded bores....what a PIA to clean. That's why I like shooting the old rifles with Black powder- soft bullets - and SPG lube. I rarely have any lead build up only BP fouling. If I do get leading I then use a gas checked bullet with BP and that usually cures the leading. Keep us posted!

krems

[krems]

Jug,
i was typing as you posted...didn't mean to repeat what you said!

krems

[Jokester]

Jugulator,
why is it that I hear a lot of these rifles are leaded like crazy? I know that using an undersized bullet is a factor but why are so many people using undersized bullets? Am I missing something?
And do you use the ballistol straight up or dilute it?
And I broke down mine before I cleaned it and it literally looked like they used industrial grease to lube the action!

Krems,
Like a brass bristle brush, or a jag?
And whats your opinion on pyrodex rs? I couldn't find goex around where I live and was wondering if it was worth the $25 dollar hazmat fee to get it shipped.
And, both of you sorry for all the questions, but a gas checked bullet with bp? I thought the bullet was supposed to expand and gas checks prevent that? Not questioning you, just genuinely curious.

[krems]

I use an undersized brass brush and wrap the copper pad material around it so it is a snug fit in the barrel. I have never used Pyrodex so I couldn't comment on it. I like the Swiss BP. I shoot a lot of antique Winchester rifles and only like to use black powder with them. Some of the bores I've encountered are very rough. They will lead no matter what alloy cast bullet or type of powder you use. On the really bad bores if I use a 20-1 alloy with a gas check sized to my bore diameter I can minimize the leading and get repeatable accuracy. The copper gas check must act as a scraper of some sort ???.. I don't like using GC bullets with BP but some rifles don't give you any choice. My favorite rifle to shoot is a Win 1876 45-75 carbine. I use a GC bullet in it all the time w/ BP and cleaning the rough bore is a breeze. On the other hand......I wouldn't dare shoot a copper gas check bullet down one of my Shiloh Sharps rifles. The bores are mint in those rifles. Every gun is a little bit different. That's what makes shooting and reloading for them fun. The quest for the perfect load to turn that rifle into a tack driver. Once you get the load figured out you need to find another rifle and begin the process all over...then repeat etc...

krems

[StrawHat]

Use one of the 20 gauge brushes you were considering tossing. Just wrap the chore boy around the spent bristles. Basically making a new improved bristle brush.

I used chore boy to clean my 1866 trapdoor. Seems like it took a week! Not really but much longer than any other oldie I have cleaned. It is now a good shooter.

Kevin

[jugulater]

in the 50-70 Governments case is was a decently common cartridge in its time and a good amount of guns were made, so many in fact that Ammo was produced into the mid 1930s, then production stopped, and all these perfectly serviceable guns were suddenly obsolete. The 50-70 has been at the mercy of the reloader for 80 years, and alot of the time boolits anywhere between .510 and .512 were fired down barrels usually measuring about .515, and the result was alot of leading.

its also possible that the later made Ammo was smokless and used .512 boolits, im not really sure.

[varsity07840]

Well welcome to the Forum, i also shoot a New York State Roller In 50-70, but mine was sporterized back in the day.

That Lee Mold is perfect for the slow twist these early guns have and my NYS sporter loves it, mine drops a bit fat at around .516-.517. the only other mold i would use is the 450Grn hollow base that NOE makes for the 50-70, as I believe it was specifically made for these antques.

As for Dies i use a lyman set that has a custom made expander plug that perfectly fits my boolits, and i turn the sizing die way out because it sizes the brass way too much. But my lyman set is pretty old and I haven't used any newer lyman dies.

I would suggest Slugging your barrel just to see what your Grooves and bore are, these old guns vary all over the place.

There was a book called The 50-70 Shooters Handbook but midway says its been discontinued.. i guess ill have to go dig mine out and read through it...

I shoot a 3 groove converted '63 Sharps and an 1868 TD. Groove depth on both are .515. I use the Lee 450 gr Government sized .516 and have no trouble getting them into the cases using a Lyman die set. I use Bell and Starline brass. I anneal the Starlines. I crimp just enough to take the bell off the case mouth.

Duane

[jugulater]

I would love to get ahold of a Shootable Converted Sharps, the couple ive seen were in horrible shape.

you guys need to post pics of all these guns!

i totally forgot to mention what brass i use, i use starline cases, but i have like 15 Bertnam cases. the bertnam stuff is weird, and expensive, but works. starline is cheaper and works better for me.

[Jokester]

I have officially lost my mind. I have spent hours scrubbing the bore with jb and the chore boy. Slugged the barrel and still keep getting a tight reading of .506! If I let the bullet spin freely between the calipers then they get pushed out to .511! I'm not sure if I'm using the calipers wrong or if they're messed up but I am losing it! Patch after patch comes out dirty and I keep scrubbing but no change. I'm starting to doubt if this rifle is even a 50-70, maybe its some random Swedish 12.7!

[jugulater]

Measure something that you know the size of, or check those slugs against another set of calipers, because im sure those calipers are wonky.

id suggest more scrubbing and measurement checking.

you could try to measure the rifling at the muzzle, just too see what you get.

[Jokester]

So I checked a .440 roundball and got .4405.
I checked 1/8 drill bit, got .125 exactly.
Checked the rifling at the muzzle, got .5065 and that was tight.

[sharab85]

Jokester,

I would suggest getting some cerrosafe and using it to cast the muzzle and chamber end of your rifle it is much easier than slugging and I think you can get more reliable results. I used to slug all of my barrels like you have been doing but after I screwed up the crown on one I decided to try cerrosafe and loved it. The only thing I will warn you about is that if you bore has any pitting it can make it hard to extract the casting and make sure and follow the directions.

Now I have a question of my own, I see alot of people are recommending that you just lightly crimp case or even use no crimp at all and I have seen that recommended before but I have also read that having a good crimp on PB loads can help pressure build up and you get better powered burn and bullet bump. Which one is correct? I am just shooting from the hip but I think I read about crimping helping pressure build up in "Loading Cartridges for Original 45-70 Springfield" I will check when I get home.

Thanks,

Shawn

[jugulater]

At this point a chamber and Muzzle cast is in order.

as for the crimp helping pressure to build up, it is true, but crimping can deform the boolit and reduce accuracy. its a trade off, Velocity or accuracy. There is a sweet spot between the two though.

im pretty sure the army Crimped their shellls for durability reasons.

[varsity07840]

I have officially lost my mind. I have spent hours scrubbing the bore with jb and the chore boy. Slugged the barrel and still keep getting a tight reading of .506! If I let the bullet spin freely between the calipers then they get pushed out to .511! I'm not sure if I'm using the calipers wrong or if they're messed up but I am losing it! Patch after patch comes out dirty and I keep scrubbing but no change. I'm starting to doubt if this rifle is even a 50-70, maybe its some random Swedish 12.7!

You can't get an accurate measurement on slug from a barrel with an odd number of grooves with a caliper or standard micrometer. You need an anvil type micrometer. There is a gentleman who frequents this forum who measured a 3 groove slug for me. He may be able to help you. His member name is texasmac. Try sending him a PM.

Duane

[boommer]

Jokester What makes you sure you have a NYS RB,on top of your hammer you should have checkering in the form of a shield,next when you pull the hammer back and drop the block then roll the block up the hammer will go into the safe position and you will have to pull the hammer back to fire.The left side of the receiver a B stamp and the barrel should have a S on the left side by the receiver.

[Jokester]

Again, thank you for commenting.
I really do appreciate the help!

Jugulator: I contacted the previous owner and he said he never actually sized the bullets, he just lubed them and stuffed them into the brass. Maybe seating and crimping the bullets explained why when I pulled the bullets they measured .412. He said he was going to look into finding his load data and digging up some old targets to see if he can help me further.
Sharab85: I ordered some cerrosafe from midway so hopefully it will get here soon and maybe that will help determine my true bore size.
Varsity07840: I didn't think of that at all. My slugs show 5 grooves. I'm gonna see if I can find a machine shop or a friend who as or has access to an anvil micrometer or other measuring equipment to see if that'll help and to see if my calipers are wonkyjawed.
boommer: Hammer and breech block both have the shield cross-hatching. The safety mechanism works properly and the serial number on the receiver and the trigger assembly match. A B is found on the barrel bands and a B with 30 stamped over it on the barrel, left side close to the receiver. "30th SEPT Co" is found on the buttstock with "93" underneath. Patent dates on the top of the tang. Serial number on the side of the tang. 30 stamped on the left side of the receiver close to the barrel. Also 30 on the right side of the barrel, close to the receiver.

Thank you all very much for your input! It is greatly appreciated!

Attached are two pictures of the "30"s

[jugulater]

my gun has got a bunch of Rs, Bs, and Ps, but no 30s or anything else besides a couple mistaching serial numbers, all in the 600 range.

the sheild cross-hatching sounds just like what my gun has.

i sure hope thats .512 not .412...

[Jokester]

my gun has got a bunch of Rs, Bs, and Ps, but no 30s or anything else besides a couple mistaching serial numbers, all in the 600 range.

the sheild cross-hatching sounds just like what my gun has.

i sure hope thats .512 not .412...

Yes, .512 sorry typo.
Maybe the 30 was stamped on because of the company?

159295

[boommer]

jokester all the 3band NYS RB'S I have seen' in thats 2 others are marked like mine. B on the left side of the receiver S left side of the barrel P right side of the barrel H above the the lug on the barrel for the forearm stock last pattern date 1874 S/N 13563 just never seen a NYS with the numbers stamped like that and mine is second gen build from what I understand.

[Jokester]

Thank you boommer!
Anyway here is a total list of all the markings on my barrel/receiver. Pictures available on request. Thank you for helping!

Last patent date is Nov. 7 1871.
S/N 17844- found on both the receiver and trigger assembly.
Witness mark at top of receiver and barrel.
Right side receiver marked 30
Right side of barrel marked 30 stamped over B
Left side marked 30
Looks to be a combination of H and P above lug with either a K or V underneath.

Thank you!

[boommer]

Jokester mine the last patent Nov 7 too but mine the looks to be like a 4 maybe it's a 1 on mine 'it's a little worn down. This just looking at the s/n's between the two. By the way I do have mine up and smoken and put Buffington sight on her. My load is simple Starline case / WLP primer/ 70 grs Swiss 1.5/.030 walters card / 450gr LEE 512 sized/ compress the powder to where you have grease grove showing and 3/4 of the band showing/ taper crimp and wha lah you have a great starting point.

Did you ever try soaking that bore with Kroil oil couple days then warming the bbl with a heat gun then beat a real tight jag though it. repeat as nes.

[Jokester]

Jokester mine the last patent Nov 7 too but mine the looks to be like a 4 maybe it's a 1 on mine 'it's a little worn down. This just looking at the s/n's between the two. By the way I do have mine up and smoken and put Buffington sight on her. My load is simple Starline case / WLP primer/ 70 grs Swiss 1.5/.030 walters card / 450gr LEE 512 sized/ compress the powder to where you have grease grove showing and 3/4 of the band showing/ taper crimp and wha lah you have a great starting point.

Did you ever try soaking that bore with Kroil oil couple days then warming the bbl with a heat gun then beat a real tight jag though it. repeat as nes.

So far the only deleading/Bore cleaning I've done has been with JB bore cleaner, chore boy copper scouring pads, a 20 gauge brass brush, and a 50 caliber montana-xtreme jag.
This is the first I've heard of the kroil. Is it safe to use? Would heating the barrel damage it or the finish?
Thank you for the help!

[boommer]

Kroil oil made by Kano lab's is a penetrating oil the best I've found it will become your best friend in the gun world, great for getting under lead in your bore so you can push it out tight patch and jag busts up junk, gunk, surface rust,works on molds to loosen lead on vents just need give it time to do it's job. I'll kroil oil my bores after cleaning let it sit over nite take a tight patch and jag and push out lead specs ,slivers and such. This stuff would of made your job much faster.

no you just get the barrel a little warmer than you want to handle.

[Jokester]

Kroil oil made by Kano lab's is a penetrating oil the best I've found it will become your best friend in the gun world, great for getting under lead in your bore so you can push it out tight patch and jag busts up junk, gunk, surface rust,works on molds to loosen lead on vents just need give it time to do it's job. I'll kroil oil my bores after cleaning let it sit over nite take a tight patch and jag and push out lead specs ,slivers and such. This stuff would of made your job much faster.

no you just get the barrel a little warmer than you want to handle.

I couldn't find any kroil near me and I checked local auto stores and sears. Everybody had WD-40 and PB-blaster? would those be good replacements or should I buy some kroil online?

[boommer]

I can get it at the gun shops around here, maybe you will have get it online. WD-40 PB and such don't compare. Kroil is the best I have found bar none, got hook on that stuff 20 or more years ago.THE one thing you should have in your arsenal for cleaning and busting rust and crud loose.

[Jokester]

Ended up having to order kroil off of Amazon. Should be here soon and I can continue this project!

[Rifle 57]

My load is a full 70gns of Swiss No1 with the Lyman 450gn boolit from my 1874 Sharps - 10 shots at 100yds over a bench!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/5070targetA.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/5070targetA.jpg.html)
Nice group from down under BAW.

[Kevin Rohrer]

I can get it at the gun shops around here, maybe you will have get it online. WD-40 PB and such don't compare. Kroil is the best I have found bar none, got hook on that stuff 20 or more years ago.THE one thing you should have in your arsenal for cleaning and busting rust and crud loose.

NO to WD-40, YES to PB-Blaster, which is what I use for loosening bolts and such.

[Kevin Rohrer]

You can get The 50-70 Shooter's Handbook for $24.50 + 3.50 S&H from:

Cistern Publishing Company
14010 North State Hwy 95
Flatonia, TX 78941

This book is out-of-stock everywhere unless you want to pay a ridiculous price. I called the author yesterday and have convinced him to re-publish it. In the meantime, he says the "Yellow Book" has the same loading information and is available.

[Jokester]

This book is out-of-stock everywhere unless you want to pay a ridiculous price. I called the author yesterday and have convinced him to re-publish it. In the meantime, he says the "Yellow Book" has the same loading information and is available.

Wow that's great! Any word/idea when it will be available and where?
Also does he mean "The Yellow Book of Selected Articles?"

[dromia]

Swiss No1. FFFFG?



My load is a full 70gns of Swiss No1 with the Lyman 450gn boolit from my 1874 Sharps - 10 shots at 100yds over a bench!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/5070targetA.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/5070targetA.jpg.html)

[Kevin Rohrer]

Wow that's great! Any word/idea when it will be available and where?
Also does he mean "The Yellow Book of Selected Articles?"

No idea. I am going to write him by snail mail tonite and order a copy of The Yellow Book (of Selected Articles) and give him suggestions on where to sell copies. His problem is that he doesn't Internet, so is probable unaware of where he could sell the 50-70 book.

WTB: Sharps cavalry carbine in 50-70. Prefer a repro, but not a Chiappa. Also need a mold for the 450gr bullet.

[varsity07840]

No idea. I am going to write him by snail mail tonite and order a copy of The Yellow Book (of Selected Articles) and give him suggestions on where to sell copies. His problem is that he doesn't Internet, so is probable unaware of where he could sell the 50-70 book.

WTB: Sharps cavalry carbine in 50-70. Prefer a repro, but not a Chiappa. Also need a mold for the 450gr bullet.


Finding a repro other than one from Chiappa will expensive and/or hard to find. It would narrow down to a Shiloh or a Garrett. Pedersoli may have made them in .50-70 years ago but I've never seen one advertised.

[GWM]

Also need a mold for the 450gr bullet.

How about joining in to get a run of this NOE hollow base mold?
http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/topic,1348.0.html
It only needs 5 to go.

[Gavetta]

I would buy one.gavetta

[Kevin Rohrer]

I'd also take one; two if a minimum order is needed.

[GWM]

Please post your interest for this mold in this thead on the NOE forum:


http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/topic,1348.0.html

This will enable a group buy when at least 5 are interested.

[GWM]

Wow that's great! Any word/idea when it will be available and where?
Also does he mean "The Yellow Book of Selected Articles?"

Buffalo Arms have the yellow book:
https://www.buffaloarms.com/Yellow_Book_of_Selected_Articles_it-164818.aspx?CAT=4151
But does the Yellow Book include all that is in the 50-70 Shooters Handbook?

[Kevin Rohrer]

Buffalo Arms have the yellow book:
https://www.buffaloarms.com/Yellow_Book_of_Selected_Articles_it-164818.aspx?CAT=4151
But does the Yellow Book include all that is in the 50-70 Shooters Handbook?

What he said was that the reloading information from the 50-70 book is in the Yellow Book. I have one coming.

[Jokester]

Sorry for my absence everybody, been a little busy!

boommer: I kroil'd the barrel overnight and cleaned it, didn't see any shiny lead fragments come out. I hit It with more jb until it came out clean, same color as when it went in.
Kevin Rohrer: Thank you for the information on the handbook. I'm going to get the yellow book.
GWM: Will definitely get one of those molds, I'll make an account at NOE and reply to that thread.

Back to the thread at hand. I cleaned the bore using the JB, kroil, and chore boy. A lubed up patch goes in and comes out clean. I'm ready to slug the bore one final time and get my final measurement!

[milrifle]

I posted this question on the NOE board, but it doesn't look like a lot of activity over there. When there's a group buy like the one proposed here, are all the moulds identical or will they make custom diameters? Not being a mould maker, I don't know for sure, but I would think the money is in the tooling (Cherry) and it would not be a big deal to program in a few thousandths more on the diameter, but I'm not sure. My wife's Sharps has a .520 bore and a .528 groove. I would think a .520 bullet would be just the ticket. I have a Lee .515-450 mold that I am going to play around with paper patching. As is, the .515 falls all the way through the barrel. I seriously doubt a .515 will 'bump up' in that carbine.

[Jokester]

I posted this question on the NOE board, but it doesn't look like a lot of activity over there. When there's a group buy like the one proposed here, are all the moulds identical or will they make custom diameters? Not being a mould maker, I don't know for sure, but I would think the money is in the tooling (Cherry) and it would not be a big deal to program in a few thousandths more on the diameter, but I'm not sure. My wife's Sharps has a .520 bore and a .528 groove. I would think a .520 bullet would be just the ticket. I have a Lee .515-450 mold that I am going to play around with paper patching. As is, the .515 falls all the way through the barrel. I seriously doubt a .515 will 'bump up' in that carbine.

Also nowhere near an expert. But, I think the whole idea behind a hollow base bullet is so that it is much easier to bump up to bore diameter.

[milrifle]

Actually, I would think it would need to bump up to groove diameter. At .515, you would be asking it to bump up .013". That seems like a lot. Also, I don't know that you could count on the whole bullet bumping up. The rear? Maybe. But I would think the front end would tend to rattle down the bore like an undersized bore rider. I was kinda thinking a bore sized bullet and let the obturation just fill the grooves. Is this a reasonable plan of attack?

[varsity07840]

Actually, I would think it would need to bump up to groove diameter. At .515, you would be asking it to bump up .013". That seems like a lot. Also, I don't know that you could count on the whole bullet bumping up. The rear? Maybe. But I would think the front end would tend to rattle down the bore like an undersized bore rider. I was kinda thinking a bore sized bullet and let the obturation just fill the grooves. Is this a reasonable plan of attack?

Paper patching to bore size and pure lead may be the answer to your oversize bore problem. Even if you could find a mould, you might have a problem fitting a .528 into the case and or chambering problems. Have you considered relining the barrel to .515 groove? Lyman dies and an inexpensive
Lee 450 gr mould and your good to go. It may cost around the same as a custom mould.

Duane

[Yellowhouse]

The standard for de-leading barrels is soaking the bore with gum turpentine and then tight patches with lots of elbow grease..

[milrifle]

Duane,

I was thinking a bore sized (.520) bullet and let the hollow base bump up to groove size (.528). .520 would fit nicely inside a fired case.

[StrawHat]

... Have you considered relining the barrel to .515 groove?... Duane

Duane, his wife is shooting what sounds like an original Sharps percussion carbine that was converted to CF cartridge. Not sure I would want to sleeve it.

Kevin

[milrifle]

Kevin,

Yes that is correct.

[varsity07840]

Duane, his wife is shooting what sounds like an original Sharps percussion carbine that was converted to CF cartridge. Not sure I would want to sleeve it.

Kevin
Understood. I guess I'm more in line with with the N-SSA school of thought on relined originals.
I agree with you if the carbine is in collector condition, but if it's a "shooter", I have no problem
with a reline, especially a Sharps, many of which were factory relined, mine included. My
original 1841 Mississippi, rifled 1842 Springfield and flint 1816 Springfield all have Hoyt relines.
Just my opinion, not gospel.

Duane

[Kevin Rohrer]

Buffalo Arms now has copies of the 50-70 book for $25. I have mine. :bigsmyl2:

[Jokester]

Buffalo Arms now has copies of the 50-70 book for $25. I have mine. :bigsmyl2:

Outstanding, thank you!
Just ordered my copy along with some other of barkers books!