why so few custom made firearms?

[PerpetualStudent]

Not sure where this thread should go. This forum was my best guess.


I'm not speaking of custom double barreled rifles or a gun encrusted with engravings which are highly highly time intensive. Nor am I speaking of buying AR-15 components and assembling it at home. I'm thinking somewhere between.

Particularly with the popularity of pistol caliber carbines we're speaking of fairly simple mechanisms. Most of them are straight blowback. The frame/stock isn't touchy as it is in a handgun, the extra mass to play with makes the old "make it stout" adage work nicely. While stock making can be an art to do perfectly, my inclination is a serviceable one could be made by a hobby woodworker. A lot of the parts (recoil springs, barrel blanks for instance) can be bought off the shelf.

So my question is, am I missing something? If you wanted a specific firearm, say a PP-Sh look alike chambered in 9mm, wouldn't it be possible to put one together for a reasonable price? Even counting your local gunsmith's time?

[William Yanda]

From the time this continent was "discovered" until the middle 1800's, ALL firearms were custom made. Today there are dozens, no, hundreds of choices. Hand gun or long gun, shotgun or rifle, semi-auto or revolver, then add the caliber and the manufacturer, domestic or off shore, and in some cases, plain Jane or up scale.
I propose that the multiplicity of choices diminishes the demand for custom built guns.
I further propose that that demand is also diminished by the multiple upgrade options available to firearms owners. Both the bolt on, owner installed, and smith adaptations contribute to this.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

You might want to take a look at a book, "Gunsmithing Projects" published by Shotgun News, who recently changed their name to "Firearms News".
It is a collection of past articles primarily about building functional firearms from ex-military parts kits.

[country gent]

One reason the true built to order or custom rifle built by a gunsmith withmore crafsmanship pride and fitting is the cost. Done by a big name gunsmith a true custom built gun with fancy or better wood is to nice for most to take to the deer woods for fear of a scratch or ding. Same with using them elsewheres. Another is cost, you can buy 2-4 factory built rifles off the rack for what that one custom rifle costs.

[Doc Highwall]

How much hindrance from the BATF puts a discouraging thought in someones mind from tinkering, and trying to make a better design.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I suspect if we were specifically talking about "say a PP-Sh look alike chambered in 9mm", then the price of the widely available Hi-point carbine would discourage the person wanting the PP-Sh custom built for a cheap price. Now if a person wants a specific type of hybrid firearm and has the money and the desire to spend that money with little hope of recouping that money when/if sold, then I suspect there are enough custom builders with a manufacturers FFL to service that crowd.

My point is, I don't believe there is much demand for building a custom firearm for triple the price (or more), when a similar design, that's mass manufactured is, no doubt, available.

[PerpetualStudent]

But why 3x the price, when so much of a hybrid type firearm is off the shelf?

I know that machining time is expensive and they have to eat too, I recognize that. Certainly they wouldn't be able to beat hi-point, but it seems you should be able to compete with with ~700 dollar Pistol Caliber Carbines.

I'll have to take a look at that book Der Gebirgsjager. I would buy that a lot of homemade ones aren't made because the younger generations lack the skillset. And as Doc points out there is fear that the ATF will stomp on you (whether you deserve it for doing something illegal or not).

It just seems odd to me that there isn't a price point below "Money is no object" to get exactly what you want with such off the shelf availability of parts.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

why 3x the price ?
I just threw that number out there...kinda of a educated guess, mixed with personal experience with custom bolt guns made from mil surp receivers. I have bought several such custom guns, after someone else put their sweat and/or money into making it. I've paid as low as $150 and as much as $400 for some nice second hand custom rifles. Three were from one specific rifle maker in my area. So one day, I got to thinking I wanted a custom mil surp in 358win. So I contacted that guy and went I went down that road of specifying all the details of the gun I hoped for, I spend over $800. Which is about 3x of the similar guns I bought second hand, where someone else did the specifying.

In case you're interested, a couple of the "second hand" customs are pictured in the OP of this thread and the $800 gun I "specified" is pictured in post #23
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?195360-Mauser-WOWser

[Tackleberry41]

Look at all the 'budget' guns out there and the companies fighting over their share of it. Comes down to cost. For every gun owner willing to pay for custom work, theres 100 who won't. Most of them cry over spending any money to fix or improve a gun. Say you want $50 to thread the end of a barrel, they whine it can't be that hard to do. No not really...if you have a lathe in the garage and the $30 tap or die to finish the job. I dealt with when I worked on cars. Customers complained to no end about paying for diagnostic work.

A 9mm PPSH would be interesting, but costly. You can get the raw gun pretty cheap since the cheap surplus ammo to feed them dried up. A 9mm barrel wouldn't be much of an issue, imagine the bolt weight might work for 9mm vs tokarev. The mags would be an issue, the Germans may have modified them to run 9mm, but stock ppsh mags may or may not work well with 9mm. Is there the demand out there for a 9mm PPSH to justify a company making a bunch of them? Or the supply of mags that would be required?

[country gent]

I have had built/ built NRA match rifles and NRA long range. A Krieger barrel countoured and short chambered for an M1A runs around $400.00 in stainless steel last I had heard a rear lugged M1A action was running around $600.00 the parts kit for op rod and other small parts was $200.00 or so. This does have a military standard stock not sure what the heavy stocks are selling for now. Having this assembled and fitted chambered and bedded is on top of this. In bowling pin ipsic shooting the compensated 45s by big makers were a 2000.00 rebuild of your pistol.

[JWT]

In bowling pin ipsic shooting the compensated 45s by big makers were a 2000.00 rebuild of your pistol.

Custom is pricey but it sure is fun.
158776
This was about a $2K customization over 15 years ago.

[country gent]

I always lusted for my buddies wilson accu comp. That 45 could shoot and was just a ideal form of the 1911

[Love Life]

Custom costs money. My stable of long range rifles cost over $3,500 apiece when you add up the cost of parts and smiffin' work. Add a $1,200- $3,500 scope on top and you can see why many don't want to go full blown custom.

I pay for custom because custom gets me what I want. I'll never, ever, ever make back what I have in them. I understand that, but the enjoyment I get out them is priceless.

[waksupi]

It's kinda like owning a pick up. Some will willingly pay $40,000+ for a new one, while they could go on Craigslist and buy one that will do exactly what they need done for $1500. Pride of ownership.

[Rick Hodges]

Many many years ago I fell in love with the work of Dale Goens...a simple turnbolt custom rifle...a wait of 3 years and $4500 it could be mine. That was in 1978 dollars. Way too rich for me. I have no doubt it was worth every penny too.

[Love Life]

It's kinda like owning a pick up. Some will willingly pay $40,000+ for a new one, while they could go on Craigslist and buy one that will do exactly what they need done for $1500. Pride of ownership.

So true, and it hurts every time you see it when you shelled out for the 'New' $40,000 vehicle.

[rondog]

When I was 14-15 I used to hang out at a place called Champlin Firearms in my home town of Enid, OK. They built custom made-to-order big game rifles and shotguns, real high-end rich boy toys, made from scratch. It was very cool to hang out and watch all the machining and woodworking processes, and they were always very welcoming to this snot-nosed kid. They made some beautiful guns, but man they were pricey! I remember the wood blanks alone cost them around $4500, and this was in 1970.

[country gent]

The diffrences in accuracy and looks between off the rack and the higher end wood grades hand finishing and fit can be amazing, the better barrels and trued up actions precison chambers and tuning better triggers can really improve accuracy also. The look and feel of the true custom rifle can be an eye opener. The stock made to fit you helps alot with controlling and felt recoil. The built to order custom firearms can be interesting.

[John Taylor]

Mass production has brought the cost way down for some items, including guns. 200 years ago it took about 300 hours for a gun smith to build a rifle from scratch. A lot of professional gun shops get $100+ per hour today. Now days you can get a barrel blank at $100 + ( mass produced). Using one of the mass produced barrel you could still be looking at $20,000 for all the rest of the work. With BATF a gunsmith can not buy an action and build it into a rifle without a manufactures license, even if he uses an old military action. If the customer buys the action a gunsmith can install a new barrel and stock without having the extra license. A while back a stock maker friend was working on a $2,000 piece of wood for a stock. After sending it out to a carving shop for rough shaping ($100) he was planing on about $400 worth of hand work, not including finish. As they say, time is money
A few weeks back another shop brought me a Mosin Nagont to do a bunch of work including scope mount, bolt handle, cut and crown barrel and new stock . The owner could have bought a new Savage and had some change left over.

[Hannibal]

Look at the price of a quality barrel blank as compared to the cost of many of the 'entry level' center fire rifles being produced today. Nearly the same. And that quality blank still needs threading, chambering, crowning, fitting and testing. Yet many shooters are quite happy with the range performance of those 'entry level' rifles, according to the 'internet scuttlebutt'.

I disagree myself, but I find I am in the minority on many of my positions these days.

[Hannibal]

Look at the price of a quality barrel blank as compared to the cost of many of the 'entry level' center fire rifles being produced today. Nearly the same. And that quality blank still needs threading, chambering, crowning, fitting and testing. Yet many shooters are quite happy with the range performance of those 'entry level' rifles, according to the 'internet scuttlebutt'.

And that's all well and good. Just don't take your 'family sedan' to the drag strip, unless you are sitting in spectator's row.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

snip...
And that's all well and good. Just don't take your 'family sedan' to the drag strip, unless you are sitting in spectator's row.
does the "Peoples car" qualify as family sedan ?

http://classiccarpicturesalmanac.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/1962_Volkswagen_BeetleDragsterRaceCar_ofMR_RearVie w.jpg

[Hannibal]

Given the investment in that Beetle, Ummmm . . . .I'm thinking 'NO'!

Nice ride, though.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

oh, it's not mine or anything...just a image I pulled from Google...to have a laugh :lol:

[Hannibal]

I understand. Put enough $$$ in a Chauchat and you might win a local match or 2 as well. It's all good.

[SSGOldfart]

Just remember you get what you pay for,does it matter how good the gun is if the shooter doesn't know how to use it,
I think that's were a lot of off the rack guns go.the guy who shoots a box of rounds just before deer season and maybe one or two shots in the field if he's lucky.

[Hannibal]

Agreed! A $750 rebarrel job does John Q. Shooter no good unless he is a prodigy.

Range and trigger time. Repeat 10x.

[PerpetualStudent]

I suppose everyone's idea of value varies I guess. I could never see myself dropping 2k on a single gun. 1200-1500 for a custom M1Garand? Yeah I could see myself doing that, my ceiling for pistols is even lower. In general I wholeheartedly agree with Hannibal that range and trigger time are more important than perfect tools. The % of shooters who never run up against the limits of their gun and ammo, is probably depressingly high. I know I haven't hit them.

I also know that I have odd tastes. I don't want a race gun, but I do want guns/calibers that would odd. Like a PPsh look alike in 9mm, or an FNp90 in 7.62 Tok. Rack grade accuracy out of the exact gun/caliber I want would be fine with me. If it were possible to commission (or build myself) such things without hitting racegun prices I'd love that. But I'm gleaning that it's like most things: custom costs so much more than off the rack that there is no midgrade price point.

[country gent]

Thats one of the reasons ARs are so popular with a few tools they can be built at home fairly easily. With a griselle trigger, barrel from a good to top end maker ( you buy bolt and extension from maker and you get a countored barrel headspaced and ready to go) adjustable gas block and sopme other assorted pieces parts, your bare upper and lower can be assembled into a truely accurate nice rifle at home. As far as others it may take some special fitting machining and work that comes with experiance. Handguns more so.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I suppose everyone's idea of value varies I guess. I could never see myself dropping 2k on a single gun. 1200-1500 for a custom M1Garand? Yeah I could see myself doing that, my ceiling for pistols is even lower. In general I wholeheartedly agree with Hannibal that range and trigger time are more important than perfect tools. The % of shooters who never run up against the limits of their gun and ammo, is probably depressingly high. I know I haven't hit them.

I also know that I have odd tastes. I don't want a race gun, but I do want guns/calibers that would odd. Like a PPsh look alike in 9mm, or an FNp90 in 7.62 Tok. Rack grade accuracy out of the exact gun/caliber I want would be fine with me. If it were possible to commission (or build myself) such things without hitting racegun prices I'd love that. But I'm gleaning that it's like most things: custom costs so much more than off the rack that there is no midgrade price point.

I bet this one has a bit of a higher value, but it sure has a nice story
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?276251-After-55-Years-Dad-s-Garand-Comes-Back-to-the-Family

[Blackwater]

There are a lot of variations on what constitutes a "custom" gun, and one that's been "customized" by simply adding on things like grips, sights or various other after market accessories. A custom gun, at least in the classic sense, is generally regarded as a gun someone makes or has made to his own personal specifications down to the smallest details. Those are the ones that are very expensive to prohibitively expensive for most of us. But gee golly wow are they FINE rifles! Below this level of custom, there are an infinite shading of degrees of customization. Most of us like to have something distinctive about our guns, either from a function and fit perspective, or simply because man has something in him that has seemed from time immemorial to just WANT to decorate his weapons and make them distinctive to him, and him alone. And there are as many ways to do the later as there are people involved.

I think customized guns are MUCH more prevalent today than they've ever been, except of course back when ALL guns were one-offs, and barrels were made from wagon axles, etc. I spent an entire morning and part of the afternoon in the Smithsonian once with the old Ky & Pa rifles, and believe me, those old guns CAN talk to you. You just have to know how to listen! Any 'smith that thinks he's pretty good should probably go there and then ask himself if he could do what they did with the very minimum of materials and tooling that they did it all with!

And the main reason we don't see more custom guns today is simply because most people don't appreciate their qualities and traits any more. We are so busy making the money to pay our taxes and still support the home front that many of the finer things in life, like appreciating really nice materials and their proper execution just can't be valued like they once were. We think we're better off than the bulk of folks from way back when, but it could be easily and validly argued that we've lost at least as much as we've gained in the process. The general consensus today is to get things "down and dirty" and at minimum outlay in $ and time and "trouble." This is diametrically opposed to the appreciation of a fine, figured piece of wood that has been very accurately fitted and finished and shaped to just the right dimensions for a given person's frame and build, finely and deeply blued steel, a little checkering on the metal, like the safety, etc., and fine, perfectly executed checkering on that beautiful wood, and all of it shooting about like a good factory gun should if you work up a good, accurate load for it.

Most simply don't appreciate the difference between the off the rack and the custom guns. Yeah, they're nice, but most don't WANT to fall in love with the really fine ones, like the Champlins mentioned above, because they COULD have one, but it'd cost them so much other stuff that they don't WANT to fall in love with a truly beautiful gun and a fine example of the gunsmith's real art. So ... they just don't and won't let themselves do that. It may be akin, at least in some ways, to the sour grapes thing, but it's also quite pointedly a result of simple self-preservation in our modern world.

A few of us more passionate types can't live without one, though. I have one I made myself, and one a friend made for me. The one I made myself is an '03 Spfld. that's mostly been simply restocked, and I put a good bit of work in that stock to get it like I wanted, which was something like an old 1930's "custom" rifle for the average man, when restocking was the biggest part of making an old, cheaply obtained military rifle into a nice hunter. The other is a '98 Mauser in .280 that has reasonably nice Circassian walnut carved by my friend in a very distinctive but subtle manner that's fluid in line, and "looks like it's moving when it's sitting still," to borrow an old phrase that tries to describe a stock like this. It's toned down from what a full-on custom would be, but for an old country boy like me, it's a lifelong dream come true. I've customized many rifles for myself and friends, much of it being glass bedding and working on rifle triggers. Bought an old SS .44 Ruger SB with barrel trimmed to 4 5/8" recently, and I only found out after I bought it that it belonged to an old friend and neighbor, and I'd done the action work on it. The extreme smoothness is one of the reasons I bought it in the first place, plus the real stag grips. Got it at a good price, too, which is always important. It was good to reunite with an old friend of a gun!

Making our guns distinctive seems to be more important to many today than learning how to really use them quickly and accurately, unfortunately. Shooting is viewed more as simple "play" than as a real, serious pursuit that MIGHT one day determine whether we live or die, or whether we eat or go hungry. Most moderns have had things so easy for all of their lives that they can't imagine the hardships that were commonly faced not very long ago at all, and we humans are really pretty lazy as a species, and don't pursue things unless we have an over-riding need or desire to do so. Life's always been full of trials and decisions, and the decision to go with a factory rack rifle is a good one for most, but for those who love the art and craftsmanship of the 'smith, a custom gun is something that just MEANS more than an off the rack rifle ever will. These few, like me and so many others who still love real art, just can't stand NOT having at least one or two good examples of this to have and hold and appreciate and USE.

One of my friends has a #1 Ruger in .338 that he has some $5,000 in, all tolled, and the work of 3 separate 'smiths. The stock is Turkish, IIRC, and one of the finest pieces in figure & color I've ever seen, and all carved to perfect dimensions for him, and he takes this gun out in the rain because he's a HUNTER, and got this gun to HUNT with. He cares for it when afield, and it shows use, but NO abuse, and when he cleans it, or just takes it out to appreciate the thing again, those tiny little dings and minor scratches remind him of the trip they were acquired on, and he gets to relive the whole thing all over again.

If you've ever seen many of the older custom guns, from the time when Mausers and '03's were commonly made into good hunting guns, you'll note that they all look and are well used, with minor scratches and dings all over them. Those folks USED their guns, and didn't keep them in the safes, afraid of losing a dollar from a ding if and when they sell it, or their heirs do. A wise man couldn't care any less about such things, and takes fine rifles out to USE them for the purpose they were intended to be used for. It's afield that these guns really shine. Carrying one just gives a man a sense of accomplishment and pride that very simply helps him put his best efforts forth in the woods. Or at least if it doesn't, he's probably not one who really wanted or needed a really nice custom gun to start with. Nothing wrong with that. Not everybody appreciates the Mona Lisa or the Statue of David or the Pieta. We're all different, but thank God there are the fine craftsmen who still put out the truly fine guns in a spirit and manner of the old craftsmen/artists who have always tended to execute the finest weapons known to man for their respective times. Not many really appreciate what they do any more, with the coarsening of people's tastes and desires, but those who still DO appreciate them really, really, really need to get one of their own examples to own and hunt with. It's a whole 'nother experience when they do, and WELL worth what it costs for what you get back in return, plus, it'll last several lifetimes with good, decent care. How could it get any better than that? Of course I'm prejudiced, but it's a GOOD kind of prejudice. All it costs is money, and you get so much back in return!

[Don Fischer]

Couldn't agree more. I have a 1903 done by Paul Jaeger in 11945. Then it cost $500. Had it appraised in 1992 at $7,500! Carry it in the woods is something I've never done and may never do!

[Blackwater]

Guns like that have become pieces of history, and as such, merit being babied with all the efforts we can give them. But if it were mine, and I had a stand where I was sure it would be very unlikely to get damaged, I'd likely do my best to take a deer with it. Those pieces of history are just guns that should be shot little, perhaps to get a good load, and then only very rarely. History deserves all the protections we can give it, even if few appreciate it these days. Those are the exceptions that prove the rule, to me at least. For guns that are constructed to serve a certain purpose for the owner, though, it's never made any sense to not take them afield "in case" they may get a ding or two. For those rifles, it's a shame NOT to hunt them, and maybe even hunt them pretty hard. Any rifleman, I think, does his best to protect his rifle. Afield, things just happen, and I couldn't let that make me keep it a safe queen. But that's just me, of course. And opinions and values certainly do vary on these matters, for sure! A beautiful hunting rifle that's never hunted just loses some of its luster for me, while taking it afield just enhances the experience. I guess that's why the indians used to put eagle feathers and stuff on their bows? It's just a way to appreciate what things are mo' better, and there's always satisfaction in using something very nice really well.

[Geezer in NH]

I understand. Put enough $$$ in a Chauchat and you might win a local match or 2 as well. It's all good.
Or lose your hand and face when it blows

[Rick Hodges]

Reference the Chauchat....it doesn't make any difference how much lipstick you put on a pig....it is still a pig.

[tim338]

I think cost has alot to do with it. Most people don't take into account the cost of doing business. If a gunsmith charges $75 an hour many think the gunsmith makes $75 an hour. Things like tooling, machinery, insurance, parts, taxes, electricity, rent, ect..... are not factored in. In reality he is making much less. It is this way with many businesses owners. At the end of the day if you don't make $xx.xx an hour no point in doing the job. I run into this alot with my own business (non gun related). Also the "semi custom" factory guns that are now offered have de-valued the work of a real gunsmith. So unless a niche has been found by the gunsmith there is probably a factory version that satisfies most consumers.

[Shawlerbrook]

I think the reason is that this is a limited, niche market item. Only a few of us willing to pay $1000's for something that a gun costing $100's will do. Like buying expensive works of art as opposed to a painting at a big box store.

[Sam Casey]

Custom made guns are a "black hole" for $$$ spent. The secondary market for such firearms is almost non-existent.

[David2011]

Too many can no longer afford custom built firearms. The quality of off-the-shelf is better than ever. Both are contributing factors. A friend has purchased two Browning X-Bolts recently. The first was a 7mm-06 in the $800 range and received a Nightforce SHV. It shoots incredibly well, making group after group under 1/2" and it works well as a hunting rifle. His other Browning is a Long Range Hunter Stainless Buckthorn in 6.5 Creedmoor. While it didn't shoot to the potential of the cartridge out of the box, throwing a flier in every group, it was easily corrected. I took about 3/16" off of the muzzle and put a fresh crown on it. Granted, that shouldn't be necessary for a new rifle but it was an easy fix.

He has another long range rifle, an expensive custom based on a Rem700 receiver and wanted the same or better performance with the Browning. That was achieved by the addition of a Jewell trigger although a $9.00 trigger spring may have done as well for him. Yesterday he shot a group just over 11" at 1313 yards, just 21 feet shy of 3/4 mile. The rifle has a Nightforce NXS on it. The Remington based rifle has over $5000 of his hard earned money in it less the scope. The Browning has only a good trigger added to a rifle with an MSRP under $1500. The trigger was another $235 or so. It out-shoots his custom Kreiger barreled Remington.

With results like that it's hard to justify spending 2-3 times as much for a rifle that doesn't shoot any better, if accuracy is the standard. If reasonable hunting accuracy in a beautiful rifle is the goal, then a custom or semi-custom rifle is in order. Companies like Cooper Firearms are turning out beautiful rifles that are still within the reach of many that could not or would not spend bigger bucks on one-off custom rifles.

David

[StrawHat]

To some folks, a custom firearm is hand made with fancy wood, target grade barrels, all the bells and whistles. To me, it is being able to have a firearm that is not available from the factory or if available, only at collector prices. I have a S&W revolver with a 4" tapered barrel chambered for the 45 ACP cartridge. Not a big deal today, but in the 80s when I wanted it, non-existant except from a collector. So, I took a Model 28-2 and built one. Same thing with the Winchester 1895 chambered in 405 WCF. I wanted one and could not find a good one. What I did find was a Winchester 1895 for very little money because of all the corrosive 30-40 ammunition shot down the bore. A new barrel and some other touches and I had the rifle I wanted. Neither are fancy, actually both look like standard factory items but they are both custom built pieces.

And both were affordable, no, not as cheap as if it were available from the factory but in the time and place, yes, affordable.

Kevin

[waksupi]

Custom made guns are a "black hole" for $$$ spent. The secondary market for such firearms is almost non-existent.
In this area, there is a very strong market for used custom guns. That may relate to the fact we have several well known custom builders in the area. It's not unusual to find a Jerry Fisher, Mandarino, Buhmiller, Hegland, etc. quality firearm here, particularly at the spring gun show.
One collector here told me there are more customers for firearms over $30,000 than below that. Certainly out of my price range, but I have bird dogged high end firearms for him for years, if he doesn't buy them, one of his friends do.