Gunn-Danielson bullet

[MIEagle]

I see on Brent Danielson's website that he has the design of the Gunn-Danielson bullet. Has anyone any experience shooting that design? Are there any custom bullet mould makers who have made that mould? How about the original Sharps long range design? I have a .45-70 Browning HiWall and BPCR silhouette and possibly long range. Thank you.

[BrentD]

I do NOT recommend that bullet. There are mould makers who could cut it for you, but I think it is, at best, a 3rd rate bullet. Most especially at long range. It was a fun bullet to try as an experiment, but it is a failed experiment.

The original Sharps long range bullet is a pretty interesting conundrum. Many of us got original bullets from Dick Gunn who seemed to have a bucket of them to give out. Anyway, many of us had moulds or, in my case, swaging dies cut to recreate this bullet. None of of them shot well at all. That the Old Dead Guys, who were supposed to have all of this figured out, used this bullet tells me that either the laws of physics chanced in the last 130 yrs or maybe they really didn't have it all figured out. I'm leaning towards the latter, which makes sense given that "small caliber" bullet rifles and long-range shooting was in its very infancy then and it was not long at all before "metal patch" bullets overtook them. Couple that with a century of development of the mathematics of sonic and high-subsonic aerodynamics and it is pretty easy to see how their bullets might not have been truly optimal.

Anyway, I would suggest neither of those bullets, and, although a few may still shoot such bullets, no one is shooting them well.

So, I suppose you would like a suggestion for a better bullet. :). There are only two bullets that really seem to be competitive these days. One is a close copy of the Metford bullet (a contemporary of the Sharps long-range bullet) that has been rebranded as a "Money Bullet". There are several flavors of these being made but the better ones shoot pretty well. The other is a Prolate - which is often called elliptical (because its 2D profile is an ellipse, but it is truly a prolate shape). However, most bullets labled "elliptical" aren't truly elliptical due to machining shortcuts. Anyway, this is probably the best bullet design today, though many would argue for the Money bullet and that's fine with me.

Here is a the best prolate that is available as a stock item today http://www.buffaloarms.com/Bullet_Molds_it-1173820.aspx?TERM=Jim443
Here is the Metford/Money bullet that is probably the most popular bullet design today http://www.buffaloarms.com/Cast_Bullet_Molds_it-1104828.aspx?TERM=Jim443

In both instances, make sure your bullets will work with the paper and barrel that you already have. If they are a titch small, ask that they be cut a little larger. It is always better to err on the side of slightly too large rather than slightly too small. You can always size them down, but you can't easily bump them up in diameter.

All of these are best shot as 16:1 alloy and pretty much optimized for your 18 twist barrel.

[Old-Win]

What all good LRBPTR shooters should have is a bullet mold of every successful bullet from past and present.:D That's what keeps us awake at night, trying to figure out which one is best[smilie=6:.

http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/50525_600x400.jpg (http://www.jpgbox.com/page/50525_600x400/)

From L to R. Early original Postell from an Ideal mold, Paul Jones copy from an original Sharps PP, Baco money bullet and a Paul Jones mini-groove copied from an original Gibbs/Metford PP. At our last LR match of 2014 at Harris, we shot 2 1000yd relays on the same day with about the same conditions. I used the Paul Jones Sharps PP nose on the first relay and shot the Baco money bullet on the 2nd relay with almost identical results. The Baco bullet shot 6 minutes flatter but I attribute that to using 4 more grains of powder and about 5 grains less in weight.
What we all need is a 1000 yd range in our back yds and a good spotting buddy to run these different bullets head to head under all conditions. Then we could maybe come to some conclusions.
Bob Saathoff.

[Lead pot]

Bob.

I have a 1000 yard range in my back yard but my neighbor wont let me use it. :)
I personally favor the Ideal profile with or with out the speed bumps on the shank. LOL. The original Ideal is better then what Lyman now calls the postell. There is a difference between them.

Brent.
"None of them shot well at all. That the Old Dead Guys, who were supposed to have all of this figured out, used this bullet tells me that either the laws of physics chanced in the last 130 yrs or maybe they really didn't have it all figured out."
Stop and think. We had more then 100 years to figure out black powder cartridge rifles and loads they had less then maybe 10 years before the decline of the Creedmoor matches :grin: I been loading and shooting these black powder rifles and loads going on 60 years and I still scratch my head [smilie=f:
Kurt

[Don McDowell]

Keeping the bullet length just under what the twist of the rifling will stabilize , makes a bigger difference on consistent results at long range, than the nose shape does. Especially in windy conditions.

[BrentD]

Brent.
"None of them shot well at all. That the Old Dead Guys, who were supposed to have all of this figured out, used this bullet tells me that either the laws of physics chanced in the last 130 yrs or maybe they really didn't have it all figured out."
Stop and think. We had more then 100 years to figure out black powder cartridge rifles and loads they had less then maybe 10 years before the decline of the Creedmoor matches :grin: I been loading and shooting these black powder rifles and loads going on 60 years and I still scratch my head [smilie=f:
Kurt

That's exactly my point. They didn't know it all, and yet the internet chatter seems so hung up on divining whatever it was they did.

[Don McDowell]

Have to keep in mind also the targets have changed. The center on an original creedmoor target is the same size as the entire target frame we shoot today, a bullseye then would take in the 9 and 1/2 the 8 ring today. They also shot 10 lb rifles with single set triggers and no artificial support.
By the end of the long-range matches most of the competitors were using what was termed a long pointed bullet. The closest I could find to what that bullet might have been is the BACO version of the money bullet .
Interesting read into the transition is HW Dodge wrote that when they were trying to make the 30 Krag a viable long range rifle , they couldn't get it done until they went back and copied the "long pointed bullets that worked so well for us in our 44 and 45 caliber rifles"

[Lead pot]

These three bullets shoot exceptionally well for long range. The center is a .443 Danielson prolate. the let one is a KAL elliptical .432 for my .44's. It does not do well in the 1/19 ROT 44's but it does very well in the 1/16 and 1/17 ROT. The right is a .433 prolate the Brooks made for me. It is a scaled down .443 Danielson for the 16 and 17 twist .44's the KAL drops at 504 gr and the Brooks at 485 gr. Both ate 1.460" long.
That bullet on the right has shot the tightest group I have ever shot @200 yards using the scoped 35" long 1.3 diameter round Krieger barreled Tolofson rifle 5 shots under 1" at 200 yards with the .44-100 Rem st chamber with a 92 gr load of 3F OE powder.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/th_44amp45PP_zps5b537793.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/44amp45PP_zps5b537793.jpg.html)

[kokomokid]

Always wondered how they cut the nose on a CNC lathe? Brooks said he could get me very close to Brents prolate and did with a .444 x 1.475 for 17 twist Krieger.

[Lead pot]

I don't think Steve has a CNC. Or didn't when I was there last.

[BrentD]

Always wondered how they cut the nose on a CNC lathe? Brooks said he could get me very close to Brents prolate and did with a .444 x 1.475 for 17 twist Krieger.

He should be able to - he did it for me.

Brent

[montana_charlie]

I ordered a mould with a Money nose and Brooks sent me one with an elliptical nose.
Never did own up to the error.

[Old-Win]

I am surprised that the ODG's did as well as they did back then, having all of about 6 mos. to get ready, They were either darn lucky or somebody was guiding them. Most hadn't shot passed 500 yds by the spring of 1874. To think that scores went up over the 6 or so years of Creedmoor was due to their load development etc. or just from experience would be hard to separate. Reading DBM's website shows some were shooting loooong (1.6") bullets out of 20" twist barrels successfully. We just keep ploddin along, havin fun and waitin for spring.

[kokomokid]

I had to go back and try to find where Brooks used a CNC. I guess he doesnt CNC but sure made me a nice mould.

[BrentD]

Reading DBM's website shows some were shooting loooong (1.6") bullets out of 20" twist barrels successfully. We just keep ploddin along, havin fun and waitin for spring.

I wonder about a lot of those stories that way. But even if true, remember that "success" is a relative thing.

[M-Tecs]

I don't have anything to add other than to say thanks for sharing your expertise. With the plethora of banned experts no longer contributing I find myself learning very little from this site anymore. I have learned a lot for this thread. Thanks guys.

[Old-Win]

For you bullet of the month club shooters! There is nothing that hasn't been tried before.

Left, 45-85 Walcott
2nd is the 461 Gibbs from which the money bullet was copied

http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/50527_600x400.jpg (http://www.jpgbox.com/page/50527_600x400/)http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/50528_600x400.jpg (http://www.jpgbox.com/page/50528_600x400/)
Bottom: Is it a prolate, oblate, elliptical, tangent, secant or what?

http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/50529_600x400.jpg (http://www.jpgbox.com/page/50529_600x400/)

[Old-Win]

Kurt, you have to take a jar of the good stuff over to the neighbor.

[Lead pot]

Nah, no hope Bob.
His Wife went under last summer and he followed about three months later. Now his Daughter moved in the house and she is worse. I fired her when she was baby sitting for up for having a party when babysitting and it was down hill from there on. That was about 45 years ago.

When I look at the targets the ODG's shot and I look at the targets at Lodi You, Brent and Jim poke holes in I think people now reading the ODG's books from the past I think you guys would be quoted now :)

[MIEagle]

I'm glad I opened this thread. What a wealth of info. As a collage gradiate (1970) I had to google WTH a "prolate sphere" was. It appears to be resembling a rugby football! Anyway, my next order of PPB's will be the BACO bullet in .443 and see how it goes from there. It saves me from running down another rabbit hole..

[BrentD]

MIEagle,
You should do well with that bullet. It has proven itself in enough guns and for enough shooters, and enough aerodynamic scientists that you can be confident that it will work if it fits your barrel well.

Since you are a Michigander, do you have silhouettes at Alma and Long Range at Grayling firmly in your sights? I have not shot at either, but I hear great things about them. Someday, I will give them a whirl.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

old win's bullet in the lower picture looks a lot like the 303 mk V1 projectile, but it is not jacketed and the case is not a 303.
that bullet was of the metford style.
while bullet stability is certainly related to rate of spin, hence twist and velocity, it can be affected by drag or lack of on the nose.
the greater the distance between the centre of pressure and the centre of mass in the bullet, the more it will try to overturn.
we cannot change the centre of mass, but we can try to keep the centre of pressure as far back as possible, closer to the centre of mass.
it just so happens that the elliptical and metford/money noses have the least nose pressure in the transonic zone, where nose pressure (read drag) is at its maximum.
with these nose shapes, maximum reductions of nose drag come with a nose length of 1.5 calibres.
lengthening the nose further will reduce drag more, but at a reduced rate.
strangely enough, the spitzer shape is not efficient in the transonic zone.
its drag characteristics are not good, but there is a worse thing.
instead of a steady airflow over the bullet, shock waves appear, which can really destabilize a bullet.
scheutzen shooters use spitzers above the speed of sound, but report tumbling bullets when their bullets get slower.
an obvious thing to do is to make the longest nose possible, but what is possible?
the fly in the ointment is bullet bumpup with our alloyed bullets, both pp and greaser.
if you have a nose 2 calibres long, it will not be that way when you light the fire.
before it even starts to move, some of the rear part of that nose bumps up, shortening the nose.
even with an alloy of 12:1 this will happen.
this leaves us with a maximum real nose length of 1.5 to 1.6 calibres when the bullet leaves the barrel.
the original metford bullets reflect this.
also when that nose bumps up at the rear it is sheer luck if the centre of the meplat remains on the axis of the bullet, causing serious instability.
with such a bullet, the faster you spin it, the more unstable it gets.
just to demonstrate the difference in drag while subsonic, consider this.
our bullets, while transonic, have 3x the wind deflection of a 308 155 gn palma load.
this is the case from muzzle to about 600 yds.
once fully subsonic, from 600 to 1000 yds, our bullets have 2x wind deflection of the above 308 load.
this suggests a major reduction in drag.
so uses one of the nose profiles suggested by brent and cast them hard.
somewhere in there is the best balance.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Lead pot]

When a alloy as hard as 1/12 you have to make some changes. 1/12 does not create a problem when the bullet is groove diameter but when it's patched at bore diameter the only thing holding it is the paper. You have to look very hard to see any land impressions in the shank. And it will loose less then .018" in length from what I have found.
I have looked at long nosed bullets in the .40 and .44 calibers that have bent noses especially in the .44 bullet I posted on #8. the far right of the 3 bullets when it is shot in the 1/16 ROT with a 90 gr load of 3F powder. I never checked the velocity of that 485 gr bullet with a 90 gr load of 3F but it has to be over 1400 and the 16 twist the rpm is high. This makes me wonder if that bullet is getting overheated from friction and making it soft.
I haven't had a chance yet to shoot this bullet past 600 yards yet. Maybe at Lodi in may I will use it.

[BRUCE MOULDS]

kurt,
I get what appears to be good bumpup with 12/1 but do not use it, preferring instead to use 16/1.
the reason for this is that I have had a few dirt diggers at 12/1.
I always try to use thinner harder wads to encourage shock transfer and hence bumpup.
what I am suggesting is that there is a mid ground of nose length and bullet hardness that must be looked for.
keep safe,
bruce.

[Lead pot]

Bruce this is pretty much what I find with tin/lead alloys. I lost a lot of stuff I had gathered up over the years written and photo's with alloys from 1/10 to 1/50 T/L and antimony, copper based babbitt and several others. They all react differently shot in calibers from the .40-65 to the .45-120 (3.25) to the .50-2.5 and bullet weights from the mid 300 gr to 800 gr. They all upset differently.
Here are three 1/12 to 1/16 T/L but these where patched .001" under bore in the .45-70 with 68 gr of 2F Goex express powder.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/d73d474f-61bf-4fc3-ba5d-d1584b8fab29_zpsfxz98gyu.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/d73d474f-61bf-4fc3-ba5d-d1584b8fab29_zpsfxz98gyu.jpg.html)

[BRUCE MOULDS]

kurt,
many of us owe you a great debt for sharing your work with us.
it always seem to raise more questions, which can only be a good thing.
my only experience is with the 45/2.4" and the 40/72, so nowhere as encompassing as many here.
I have never had a 1/12 bullet look any worse than you 1/16 in the photo.
with 1/16 I get a little bit of nose setback, and have to patch accordingly.
both yo and don McDowell often have less bumpup than I seem to experience.
I have only use swiss 1.0, 1.5, and wano p, and only milk carton or 0.030 or 0.060 poly or veg wads.
the only time I get reduced paper cutting is when breech seating with an airgap, but it is still o.k.
I mean to try filling the airgap with wad material one day, but never seem to get the time.
do you thing the differences could be to do with wads?
keep safe,
bruce.

[Gunlaker]

Bruce I imagine you are using more powder than 68gr. I will bet that is a contributing factor. I don't think I've ever used less than 82gr, except with OE 1.5 where I think only 75 fits into my .45-70 case.

Kurt, thanks for the pictures. It's always very interesting to see the stuff you post.

Chris.

[Lead pot]

Bruce.

Like I said above, everything affects the bullet. A hard card wad compared to a soft felt or cork will bump up the bullet more. No wad at all, just set the bullet on the powder really does the job.
Here is the same bullet shot with 1/16 using the .45-90 with 81 gr of 2F OE. This is what I like to find for engraving.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/IMG_0223-5.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/940Leadpot/media/IMG_0223-5.jpg.html)
The Danielson 1/18....perfect!!
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/c755dc34-a6c9-45cc-8620-3d0a4e7e847b_zpsjmnppov2.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/c755dc34-a6c9-45cc-8620-3d0a4e7e847b_zpsjmnppov2.jpg.html)