38-55 Highwall, 12 twist, 360 gr bullet, which BP do you recommend?

[joelpend]

For those shooting 38-55 with heavy bullets, what is your recommended BP. I have some Goex 2F and some KIK 1.5. Only going to be shooting to 300 yards so probably don't need extra velocity but I have read that some use 3F in the 38-55. Just want to start where people have had success if possible. I am new to this BPCR stuff, years of shooting and reloading the modern stuff and now a whole different thing to learn. Thanks in advance for your replies.

[SSGOldfart]

2F would be my choice.

[country gent]

When my rifle is done I plan on trying Swiss and old ensford 1.5f and 2f in it under 335 grn and 360 grn bullets.

[Hiwall55]

Try what you have. I shoot 2fg Goex and Swiss 1.5 in my 38s with 335 grain and 360 grain money bullets .I have a David Mos 330 grain snover bullet that is really accurate.

[Don McDowell]

I prefer the KIK over regular Goex, but next time you buy powder might want to try some Olde Eynsford in the 2f.

[Jeff Houck]

For those shooting 38-55 with heavy bullets, what is your recommended BP. I have some Goex 2F and some KIK 1.5. Only going to be shooting to 300 yards so probably don't need extra velocity but I have read that some use 3F in the 38-55. Just want to start where people have had success if possible. I am new to this BPCR stuff, years of shooting and reloading the modern stuff and now a whole different thing to learn. Thanks in advance for your replies.

I use Goex Old Enysford 2F in my 38-55 with a 350 gr. bullet. I've never lost a ram with it. I've also shot long range Buffalo to 1200 yards with it. It was a BIG buffalo!

[BrentD]

The brand is more important than the granulation, but Swiss powder is king of the hill. Has been since it arrived on the shore and will be for long long time to come. 1.5fg has always been more accurate for me.

[Toymaker]

Which bullet did you go with? I'm going with Goex FFg. I have some Swiss 1.5 and some Goex Cartridge, but with my 45-70 neither gave me the performance of plain old Goex FFg.

[Gunlaker]

If you have all four of those powders I'd just give them each a try. I'd put my money on Swiss 1.5 being the best. After that I would bet on OE 1.5.

Sometimes you can be surprised by the plain grade powders. I've shot some very nice 200m targets with Goex Fg in my .38-55 recently. The best that this particular rifle has ever shot. But these are breech seated so I have a lot more powder capacity than with fixed ammunition so can go with a weaker powder.

The Cartridge powder has been disconinued for a while so unless you have a lot, I wouldn't bother working up a load for a new rifle.

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

By the way, is this a Pedersoli rifle? If so, there was an excellent article in the Black Powder Cartridge News a few years ago on this rifle. It included load data with various bullets. There were some nice groups shown in the article. That's where I'd start.

Chris.

[joelpend]

Which bullet did you go with? I'm going with Goex FFg. I have some Swiss 1.5 and some Goex Cartridge, but with my 45-70 neither gave me the performance of plain old Goex FFg.

BACO Money Bullet

[joelpend]

By the way, is this a Pedersoli rifle? If so, there was an excellent article in the Black Powder Cartridge News a few years ago on this rifle. It included load data with various bullets. There were some nice groups shown in the article. That's where I'd start.

Chris.

Yes, Pedersoli from Dixie Gun Works. I have 3 cans of Goex Cartridge but like was said I hate to spend and time with it, be my luck it would shoot great and can't get any more. Think I will trade it to someone that has a load for it in one of their rifles. I hear people talking about softer fouling with KIK, wondering if it and OE is about the same for those that have used both.

[Don McDowell]

OE is much cleaner and easier to deal with the fouling than KIK.

[Gunlaker]

Yes, Pedersoli from Dixie Gun Works. I have 3 cans of Goex Cartridge but like was said I hate to spend and time with it, be my luck it would shoot great and can't get any more. Think I will trade it to someone that has a load for it in one of their rifles. I hear people talking about softer fouling with KIK, wondering if it and OE is about the same for those that have used both.

OK, the article in the BPCN appeared in the Summer 2011 edition. There is a good chance that back issues are still available from blackpowderSPG.com. It's a good article. It was written by Kenny Durham and he seem ed to get good accuracy at the ram line with it. He used 1:14 alloy and a 370gr Brooks bullet with 52gr of Swiss 1.5.

With respect to fouling and OE 1.5, in some loads, not all, it seems to be lighter than Swiss 1.5 for me.

I think there are a few things that affect fouling, like neck tension and bullet weight. For example in one of my 32-40's I was playing with Schuetzen FFg and it gave very little fouling. When shooting the same powder in one of my .38-55's with paper patched bullets the fouling is super crusty.

I do like the OE 1.5 in some of my rifles. It produces great accuracy in my .40-65 with good ten shot velocity SD's.

Chris.

[joelpend]

OK, the article in the BPCN appeared in the Summer 2011 edition. There is a good chance that back issues are still available from blackpowderSPG.com. It's a good article. It was written by Kenny Durham and he seem ed to get good accuracy at the ram line with it. He used 1:14 alloy and a 370gr Brooks bullet with 52gr of Swiss 1.5.

With respect to fouling and OE 1.5, in some loads, not all, it seems to be lighter than Swiss 1.5 for me.

I think there are a few things that affect fouling, like neck tension and bullet weight. For example in one of my 32-40's I was playing with Schuetzen FFg and it gave very little fouling. When shooting the same powder in one of my .38-55's with paper patched bullets the fouling is super crusty.

I do like the OE 1.5 in some of my rifles. It produces great accuracy in my .40-65 with good ten shot velocity SD's.

Chris.

Thank you, I sent a note asking for that issue, now wait and see if available.

[Toymaker]

"BACO Money Bullet"

Same rifle as I have. Same mold I've ordered. Thinking a 30:1 alloy; how about you? Let me know how you do.

Yea, I'm going to leave the Goex Cartridge on the shelf to stare at. They should never have discontinued it. Lots of people swear by Swiss and I've shot with some that do very well using it. But I have a load of Goex FFg and FFFg that I use for my muzzle loaders and I'm going to start with it. I buy bulk so it is way cheaper than Swiss.

As mentioned before, I use Goex FFg in my 45-70 roller and do very well with it. Off the bench 1-inch 5-shot groups at 100 yards and 5 shots inside a 3-inch spot (1.5 - 2 inch) on a steel plate at 200 yards. I haven't duplicated that performance with Swiss, although I'm still trying as I use up the pound I have. I also have two smokeless loads that go faster and duplicate the performance of the Goex. So life is good and I hope to carry through with the 38-55.

Now I'm going to go dig out of a 22-inch snow storm...................

[Gunlaker]

You will want to go a lot harder than 30:1. I would start with 16:1 or at least 20:1 with a Money bullet. I shoot a .38 cal slender nosed bullet and 16:1 will outshoot 20:1.

Chris.

[MIEagle]

I don't shoot Goex 2F without sifting the fines out of it. Very dirty powder. Your powder performance will change from start of the can to the finish of the can if you don't.

[Baja_Traveler]

KIK worked just alright with me - and I hated all the fines in it. Drop a charge and there would be tons of dust floating about. Can't beat Swiss, and it is my primary powder (1 1/2). Recently tried Old Eynsfurt in 1 1/2 and it shoots really well without all the fines that KIK has. In fact it visually looks just like Swiss, and costs a whole lot less. I'll use it more in the future, especially when money is tight...

[Paul_R]

I use fff scheutzen in everything (including 38-55) simply because I have a lot of it and it's better (in everything) than goex ff or fff which I still have a bit of.

[Boz330]

For those shooting 38-55 with heavy bullets, what is your recommended BP. I have some Goex 2F and some KIK 1.5. Only going to be shooting to 300 yards so probably don't need extra velocity but I have read that some use 3F in the 38-55. Just want to start where people have had success if possible. I am new to this BPCR stuff, years of shooting and reloading the modern stuff and now a whole different thing to learn. Thanks in advance for your replies.

A 12 twist is pretty fast for a 38. I have a Badger Barreled C-Sharps 75 with a 15 twist and it loves 47gr of Swiss 2F and the Lyman 335gr bullet. I have shot this load out to 600yd with good success.
I would think that a longer bullet might be necessary to get good results with that 12 twist.

Bob

[jimofaz]

+1 on Chris' suggestion of using at least 20-1 alloy, with 16-1 likely an even better choice for a 12-twist .38-55 & a 'Money' bullet. Your targets will tell the tale, especially at 300 yards. Increased torque from the 12-twist can result in a detrimental, accuracy-destroying nose-slump condition with 30-1 alloy. I like Swiss 1 1/2 in pretty much all of my BPCR .38's.

[Toymaker]

Joel,
Here's an excellent article on "our" rifle. I recommend reading and even printing it out for reference.
http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/uploads/riviste/dpmag1.pdf

Tuesday I attempted to duplicate the loads in the article. However, the bullets on hand were (Montana Bullet Works) Hoch 376 365, Semi-Spitzer, 0.378" sized @ 365 grains and Lyman 378 674, Round Nose, 0.379" sized @ 335 grains. It was a comedy of errors.

First, I had just removed the front and buckhorn sights and installed a Lyman 17A with skylight and level in front and a Vernier tang. In the past I've done good setting up sights with my calipers and some math. At least I could hit an 8.5 x 11 inch target at 100 yards and work from there.
Second, 52-53 grains of Goex FFg, Goex FFFg, Goex Cartridge or Swiss 1 1/2 just barely, barely I say, fit in the case. Swiss does NOT like a lot of compression. Goex really, really, really likes to be compressed with 65 lbs of pressure. Good luck getting that. But it works well with about a quarter inch of compression. The Hoch bullet needed 0.35" compression and the Lyman needed 0.415" with Goex FFg. Way too much. The other powders were only slightly less. And yes, the powder was dropped through a 36" drop tube. The over powder wad was 0.055" cardboard.
Third, O.A.L. with the Hoch bullet was 3.0669" ± .010" and 2.9595" ± 0.006 for the Lyman. Even with the long chamber this means the top band is really jammed into the rifling, which increases pressure.
End result, I could hit the berm at 110 yards but the 36"x36" target backer at 100 yards stayed clean. I'm going to blame me. I only made 5 rounds of each. I needed more and should have started at 25 yards and worked my way out. So I'm going to lick my wounds and sooth my bruised ego. Then I'll try again, with more rounds, different loads and my chrony.
Good shootin' Keep yer powder dry.

[jimofaz]

From back in 2011 .... posted by Montana Charlie, who knows of what he speaketh. Maybe BACO already has this design?

Originally Posted by Dragoon 45 http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?p=1361407#post1361407) Who imports it? Dixie Gunworks lists a .38-55 Highwall from Pedersoli, but the specs on their rifle does not match the specs from the article in BPC News.
This rifle at Dixie is one of the Pedersoli 38/55's.
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product...ducts_id=15307 (http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=15307)

You can also get Pedersoli products from flintlocksetc (dot com), and at Cherry's (where you can see the model not shown at Dixie) on this page http://www.cherrys.com/ped_cart.htm

Is anyone shooting one of these rifles? Do they live up to the reviews?


Those (few) who have posted say they get good results with the Pedersoli Hiwall, including those in 38/55.

The chamber drawing initially used by Pedersoli for the 38/55:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=88&pictureid=4158

The bullet designed by Dan Theodore for the Pedersoli 38/55:
Paul Jones can cut a mould for it.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=88&pictureid=4159

CM Last edited by montana_charlie; 08-11-2011 at 10:54 AM

[BrentD]

That is a nice looking bullet for a groover. Dan always told me that his ellipticals were not true ellipses but rather spherical tipped. Sure doesn't show there. Does anyone have the equation for that bullet or some sort of idea what the dimensions might be?

[Lead pot]

Brent I think I have it. I have just about all the bullet drawings and chambers as well. I have to do some digging to find it. But going from memory it had a odd .1885 or 1.985" ball on the nose. Most of his MB he used .2205.
It might still be on the old Dell laptop that the screen went dead but I eill plug it into the tv and see if I can get it up.

[Chill Wills]

Kurt, The above is not a MB but you know that.

From memory...
This is what I can remember about what we talked about re: Dan's Money Bullets.
0.2205" would not be for a 38 cal bullet nose.
He scaled all Mini-groove bullets * noses regardless of caliber to 55% of major diameter *(later to be known as MB)
I am not sure about this detail, but seven caliber radius comes to mind to join the body to the hemisphere nose
The first bullet Dave Gullo started making using this nose had the nose tip hemisphere a good deal smaller than 55%
Looking through BAC offerings some of the old designs retain this small hemisphere

Jimofaz- to answer your question, tho I have never owned one, I believe the Pedersoli Highwall 38-55 that DanT designed for Dick Trink and got produced in limited production is an outstanding rifle! Beware of the 18 twist 38-55 Pedersoli Highwall that lurks out there! It ain't the same.....
The good one can be ID's by the 12 twist 379" barrel and possibly the Helm Lever mated with the single trigger. I am told some later rifles might of had a "S" lever and single trigger. The chamber WILL be cut to 2.130" not the shorter chamber. I do no know if the 18 twist rifle has this length chamber or not.
The correct rifle would be a shooter if it can be found.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

This is a boolit made on Dan T's design by Paul Jones. The nose is .371 and first & second driving bands are .375, the next .377 and the last 2 are .380. Shot "as cast" over 50gns Swiss No.2 and seated in Starline long brass as shown.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/BAWallace/3855375Creedmoor_zpsfa2fa597.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/BAWallace/media/3855375Creedmoor_zpsfa2fa597.jpg.html)

[Gunlaker]

The only negative thing I've heard about the Pedersoli highwalls is that some of them have problems with the trigger. I don't remember what the problems were unfortunately.

When the rifles were first announced I wanted to get one, but instead desided to build something similar on a C. Sharps action, but in a .38-50. I have a CSA 1885 .38-55 with a slow twist barrel, a new 1:12 twist barrel, and a long PJ mold. I don't remember if it's a prolate or a Money. I'd have to look at the cavity, but I believe it's one of Dan's designs. I can post a picture if it's of use.

Chris

[Lead pot]

Kurt, The above is not a MB but you know that.

From memory...
This is what I can remember about what we talked about re: Dan's Money Bullets.
0.2205" would not be for a 38 cal bullet nose.
He scaled all Mini-groove bullets * noses regardless of caliber to 55% of major diameter *(later to be known as MB)
I am not sure about this detail, but seven caliber radius comes to mind to join the body to the hemisphere nose
The first bullet Dave Gullo started making using this nose had the nose tip hemisphere a good deal smaller than 55%
Looking through BAC offerings some of the old designs retain this small hemisphere

Jimofaz- to answer your question, tho I have never owned one, I believe the Pedersoli Highwall 38-55 that DanT designed for Dick Trink and got produced in limited production is an outstanding rifle! Beware of the 18 twist 38-55 Pedersoli Highwall that lurks out there! It ain't the same.....
The good one can be ID's by the 12 twist 379" barrel and possibly the Helm Lever mated with the single trigger. I am told some later rifles might of had a "S" lever and single trigger. The chamber WILL be cut to 2.130" not the shorter chamber. I do no know if the 18 twist rifle has this length chamber or not.
The correct rifle would be a shooter if it can be found.


Michael.

I did some looking on one of my external storage drives but I will do more looking. I know the .2205 is to large for the .38.
I sent that drawing to Steve Brooks and told him to scale it up to .433 for the .44-75 Ballard because it looked so close to what the original .44-100 and .45-100 Ballard bullet looked like. But Steve missed the nose radius a little and got it a little to pointy I think.
It's the shell on the right. I haven't shot it yet at extended range out of my 16 twist rifle. I had him make a change with the base length. I don't like a bullet that has a ogive longer then the shank so I added .120" to the shank. It sure is a good shooter from the 200 yard line. I will find out at Lodi how it holds up at the 1K.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/th_IMG_2479_zps5inz5qtb.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/940Leadpot/media/IMG_2479_zps5inz5qtb.jpg.html)

Here is the original .44-75 Ballard.
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/ba732296-00cd-47df-ab16-15850f533a15_zpsa0580916.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/ba732296-00cd-47df-ab16-15850f533a15_zpsa0580916.jpg.html)

[Toymaker]

Joel,
Here's some more info. Have pencil and paper handy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6zqvxyhmgI

[Toymaker]

Joel,
Be careful if you use large pistol primers.
I was testing yesterday when a friend laid 10 BP rounds on my table to try. His load information indicated the bullet was only 265 grains so I didn't expect they would work in a 1:12 twist barrel.
After the first shot my action wouldn't open. A little jiggling loosed whatever it was and it opened easily. I did a complete check and couldn't find anything wrong so I loaded another round. The shot was touching the first which surprised and delighted me. And the action wouldn't open again. More jiggling and it opened. This time I really cleaned things with good heavy spray of WD-40, down the access hole and everything. Then a good oil job with Kroil. Third shot cloverleafed. Wow! And the action wouldn't open. This time I called my friend over and we looked everything over. A little jiggling and it opened. We examined everything again. This time I loaded one of my rounds and shot - no problem. Did it again - no problem. So we started looking at the rounds. I noticed the impact crater was deeper on his spent rounds than on mine so I looked at his specs again. He was using large pistol primers where I was using large rifle primers. All we could think of was that the firing pin was getting stuck in the pistol primers which are softer.
So if you use pistol primers take care. It wouldn't be difficult to shear off the firing pin trying to open the action.
BTW - I got so wound up with the action not opening problem that I didn't write down his load. It used Swiss 1 1/2 and was impressive so I'm sending him an email.
My load was pretty good too. Bullet purchased from Buffalo Arms; Lyman Round Nose, 1.316" long, Lyman #2 alloy, BHN 15, 0.379" dia., 335 grains, SPG lube, Starline brass, 2.125" long, CCI Large Rifle Primer, Goex FFg, 50 grains, compressed 0.209", 0.03 fiber wad, newspaper disk, O.A.L. 2.9585 --- I tried two treatments to the cases; first was fire formed, not sized, finger seated bullet. The second was full-length sized, expanded and flaired to 0.380" It didn't make any difference. 5 shots of each resulted in a 10-shot group 2 inches in diameter.
All shooting was at 100 yards, off the bench. Partly cloudy; 50°F; 99% humidity (it had just rained); 29.72 inHg relative; no wind.

[BrentD]

If you have that problem again, you might try firing the hammer on the spent primer a second time before opening the action. I have had this problem with a Shiloh when a little primer metal is set back and flows back into the firing pin hole in the block. The second strike with the hammer pushes the primer back forward and all is well. Sort of a pain, but it works for me. That said. I leave pistol primers for pistol cartridges. I'm doing okay that way too.

[Chill Wills]

Man Brent - you must have "old man - middle of the night insomnia" like me! That post shows 3am!:bigsmyl2:

One thing I learned from Mike Lewis and then Woody; tuning up the firing pin can help with Pistol primers in a rifle BPCR.
I know, I know,..... no pistol primers for you in a rifle application.

However, I use them, and ONLY with some rifles. Not in others, it depends on a few things. Some old rifles that have the old breachblock in them have the very large 0.090" diameter pin and with them - Nada! Don't use pistol primers in them.
But, with more modern-or bushed breachblocks, I take down the protrusion of the pin to 0.055" putting a good round Hemisphere on it. That will solve most of it.
Then too - some old Hepburns I have had, use a leaf spring out of a cement truck for a mainspring! Sometimes adjusting that lighter not only helps pierced primers but improves accuracy. You want these rifles to go off 100% of the time with GOOD ignition but too much is too much and messes with your offhand and probably your prone accuracy.

[BrentD]

Yes, indeed, I was not able to sleep well last night. But an hour of surfing the web was a pretty good sedative. :)

You guys that do well with pistol primers for sure, but it's not something that I have found to be beneficial. and, three of my rifles have large pins (one sharps, one highwall, one Ballard). My target rifles could use them but I just haven't found them to be helpful.

I would be leery of pistol primers in any sharps because of the angled firing pin channel not being well supported on top, but I'm sure there are those who dare. I'm not one of them.

[Lead pot]

You have to watch using a pistol primer. They are soft and the heavy throw of the sharps hammer really dents the primer deep and the firing pin will hand up in the primer. I don't know if you pull the hammer back to 1/2 cock before dropping the block so the transfer bar lets the firing pin to retract. If you want to use pistol primers you might want to stretch the retraction spring in the block and while your at it clean the pin channel so it retracts easy when you pull the hammer off the transfer bar.
The 44-1/2 CPA action you can adjust the hammer strike so it does not dent the primer cup to deep so it hangs up.

[Toymaker]

At the suggestion of another competitor I went with pistol primers for the 45-70 Rolling Block with 23 grains 4759 and a 405 grain bullet. It was very accurate and there was no "sticking". But when I stepped up to a 500 grain bullet and 27 grains 4759 or 5744 the accuracy went to pot. Changing back to a rifle primer gave me even better accuracy than the previous load.
I'm still in the load development stage with this rifle so I'll stick with rifle primers for now. I'm playing with "what I can find" bullets right now too. The bullet mold that I intend to use arrives tomorrow.
Thank you, Chill Wills. I didn't even think of that little trick.

[Don McDowell]

[QUOTE]But when I stepped up to a 500 grain bullet and 27 grains 4759 or 5744 the accuracy went to pot. Changing back to a rifle primer gave me even better accuracy than the previous load./QUOTE]

Had you of dropped the charge when the bullet weight went up and kept the velocity and pressure where it should be for a bp equivalent,
your accuracy should of stayed put, even with the pistol primers. At least that's been my experience with the stuff.

[Toymaker]

Velocities are well above BP loads, Don. At least with the 45-70 I've found that primer, powder volume and powder position impact consistency and accuracy. Large rifle primers have out performed large pistol primers unless special [extra] measures are taken (i.e. fillers or tilting the rifle up before shooting, etc.). I haven't messed with magnum primers and probably won't.

[Toymaker]

100 yards, off the bench
161885 161886

[wade]

can u tell me what bullet velocity , i have a 38/55 and load 335 lyman and have oldeinford
2ffg -wade

[Jeff Houck]

What powder charge are you using? I use 44 grs. OE 2FG, 360 gr. bullet for 1125ish FPS.