Bullet seating depth for 45 ACP

[RogerDat]

I'm taking a first pass at loading 45 ACP using a cast Lee TL452-230-2R bullet and am not sure on how deep I should seat the bullet. I have seen some posts that suggest leaving about a fingernail thickness of the driving band step showing above the brass. Others information suggests the step in the bullet should be flush with the brass edge.

I'm sizing the bullets to .452 tumble lubed (45/45/10) the range pick up R-P brass has been trimmed to .8795 with a Lee quick trim. 5.6 grains of Unique. I had some loaded with 4.3 grains of Titegroup but the Unique load seemed more accurate.

I'm loading these for a good friend who tried 32 rounds as a test batch and had 3 fail to feed, could not even push in slide, on those three the brass showed a mark that looked like it caught on something and the brass was longer than the store bought round he provided to compare with. So I trimmed the brass which I probably should have done in the first place. The ones I checked before loading test rounds were .895 so within spec but... while trimming a hundred I found a few that seemed to get more trimmed off so maybe some were running long.

These test rounds were loaded with bullet step even with the brass edge. I'm tempted to make the brass trimming the only change on the basis of only change one thing at a time. The dies are in a turret disk so still adjusted as they were for prior batch. I thought it was worth asking the folks that have experience before loading another batch of test rounds as maybe I should change the seating depth too.

This is the bullet
http://www.titanreloading.com/molds/bullet-molds/45-acp-45-auto-rim-45-colt/lee-dc-mold-tl452-230-2r-

[Scharfschuetze]

It's going to have to both pass the "plunk test" (if you're unfamiliar with that, post and we'll describe it) as well as feed through the magazine.

The throat in your friends 45 will determine how far out you can seat the boolit and the magazine will determine how far you can't seat the boolit out. Your OAL can not be any further out than that which will feed through the magazine.

The Lee loading manual should give you an approximate OAL for the Lee 230 grain boolit.

Use a good taper crimp if you can that still leaves the lip of the case out far enough to headspace properly, but depressed or crimped enough to allow for proper feeding.

[RogerDat]

I should add this is the best laid out information on this bullet I have found. Not having the barrel available makes the plunk test a bit difficult.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?254937-Tumble-lube-bullet-seating-depth

[Jal5]

I load those for my Para Expert leaving the fingernail of driving band above the mouth of those cases. Use mainly Federal brass and never trim. 1.250 OAL. VERY ACCURATE USING BE.

[Jal5]

Mine are the same dimension .452 sized tumbled in BLL twice. Very easy to do for lubing. I need to pour more of them now :)

[RogerDat]

I think I know what the plunk test is but would benefit from an explanation. On reflection I could probably load a few without primer at different lengths for him to check if I had an explanation of how to test.

If I understand the above bullet can't be longer than the magazine will feed or shorter than the throat requires to allow the bullet to "plunk" in with the base even with the barrel. Will that plunk test require disassembling the pistol or can it be simply fed in by hand.

I love tumble lubing, use a heavy zip lock bag, goes fast and works well. Need more for .223 and 7.62 so I'm going to try powder coating those. Saw some loads in 45 ACP for BE were very popular but I have TG and Unique so that is what I'm using.

[gwpercle]

The last photo in Bullwolf's post pretty much says it all , picture worth 1K words and all,
Cover all the grooves, the case should be a fingernail thickness below the very top top groove, in between the top groove and the next lower. If it doesn't drop into the chamber, seat it a tad deeper.
Gary

[RogerDat]

Friend is going to pull barrel and I'll have it at reloading bench to test against so will just follow the well laid out process outlined by the members for getting a good round.

If I get around to posting a picture of the wood powder storage box he made for me you will understand why I want to help him get some range time in. Fixing up an old house and a couple of car repairs have left him a little tight for buying ammo. My goal is to make sure once warm weather hits he can get in some practice or if the grown kids come by the farm they can spend a little range time with their dad.

[Blackwater]

Roger, an old trick is to put a factory 230 JRN in your shell holder and run it up. Then turn your seater die down to just above where it'll crimp, and then adjust the seater plug (with RN seater plug in it) only until it seats gently but firmly on the factory RN load, and lock it down. Then seat your bullets, and after seating them all, come back and readjust your seater die, screwing the seater plug up so it no longer contacts the bullet at all now, since it's already seated to the OAL you want, and screw the seater die down until it just removes the bell of the case and turns the case mouth SLIGHTLY into the bullet, in order to keep it from being shoved back in feeding, which can yield much higher pressures and bad results in several ways.

Since I went to crimping as a separate step, my FTF's have been near zero, and only seem to occur when I use culls to "round out" a batch of loads. What happens is that if you seat a bullet and crimp in the same step, the bullet is still being pushed downward into the case when and as the case is rammed up into the die and when it encounters the crimp part, it should turn the case mouth slightly into the bullet. As that case mouth is turned into the bullet slightly, WHILE the bullet is still moving downward very slightly, it pushes or plows up a tiny ring of lead in front of it. This ring is tiny, and most people think "That's not enough to hurt anything," but experience seems to prove that it DOES indeed hurt reliability. What happens is this tiny ring of lead tends to break off and stick to the front edge of the chamber, where the case mouth usually sits, and thus, as it builds up for several shots, and sticks to the front of the chamber, the subsequent rounds can't chamber fully due to the little lead buildup sticking to the front of the chamber. This usually isn't terribly hard to remove with the right brush, but it still can and likely will cause some malfunctions. I proved this from quite a bit of experience with 1911's many years ago, and I don't LIKE having to seat in a separate step, but I've come to do it consistently because it's eliminated almost all my FTF's.

Seating SWC's to the OAL that is produced by the die set up with the JRN seems to produce good feeding most of the time, but might need to be adjusted one way or the other (usually shorter, but YMMV from mine). The theory is that the bearing surface that hits the feed ramp is pretty close on the nose of most SWC's when the bullet is seated as described, but that really depends on just how wide the flat on the nose is. A smaller nose may need to be seated a little longer, and a wider one a tad shorter, usually, but again, your results may be different from mine. It all depends on the gun and spring tensions used.

Get it right, and cast will feed like water going downstream, and I don't LIKE seating as a separate step, but having reduced my FTF's so drastically, I do it. I'd rather have my lips pooched out at doing it as an extra (but brief - it's a quick process) step than on the range where jams or FTF's break my concentration and delay my getting better. I've been told I was crazy in this by more than one, but some seem not to care whether their "practice" ammo causes a jam now and then or not. I do. And besides, we never really know when our "practice rounds" might prove to be what we have in the gun when we really need it badly. It's good to know they'll function as needed!

Just my results and techniques, but they've worked for me for an awfully long time now.

[TenTea]

A dimension of equal significance is the case mouth diameter after bullet seating and taper crimping (finished round).

This should measure 0.470" (+/- 0.002) in order to headspace cleanly in most pistols and pass the plunk test.

[fredj338]

I don't trim service pistol brass, ever. OAL seems to confound many new & some exp reloaders. It's really this simple; OAL is always bullet & bbl specific. So what works in my gun may not in yours. Some bbls have shallow throats & a bullet may hit rifling before it chambers. Sounds like what you may be experiencing. Load a dummy round, drop it into the removed bbl. The case head should flush with the bbl hood. If not, seat 0.10"deeper until it does. Make sure your crimp is correct. If the bullet still won't fit, you may have a very short throated chamber that could use a bit of reaming in you want to use that bullet.

[rondog]

I've never trimmed a piece of .45acp brass and don't ever plan to. Just no reason to! But seating cast boolits, I've found they need to be seated deep enough so there's just a hair of driving band showing, or the boolits will jam into the rifling and my 1911's won't go fully into battery.

But trimming pistol brass? Not me. Only time I'll do that is cutting down 9x19 Luger to make 9x18 Makarov.

[35remington]

Since I cast and shoot that specific bullet I'll suggest loading to 1.265" and going from there. It should pass the chamber fit test as only a little of the band is forward of the case mouth. Such length duplicates or nearly so the OAL of 230 FMJ factory.

Do taper crimp to remove the belling flare from seating the bullet. Taper crimp as a separate step from seating, +1.


If the case is below SAAMI maximum there is NO need to trim it.....ever. "Case trimming" and "45 ACP" are not terms that go well together.

[RogerDat]

I'm convinced! Will order either a Lee taper crimp for less than $12 or a Factory Crimp for less than $20 from Titan. I did some swapping to get this 3 die set and it is in good shape but I like my 4 die sets I use for revolvers where these two steps are adjusted for individually. Sounds like I can just use my existing Seating/Crimp combined backed out as a seating only.

I'm loading brass that came out of a bucket-o-range brass, the lengths have varied enough that I couldn't see how they could be loaded as consistent ammo. I won't be trimming them as a regular thing, just initially to get them to same length and one that matches the factory round I had for compare. I'm not a fan of trimming brass, I like it only slightly more than swaging primer pockets of .223 military brass and I really hate that job.

[kentuckyshooter]

With the good responses on this thread i would say your well on your way to geting this issue sorted out. What I can add is that I am using the exact same boolot unsized with LLA in my Llama 45. Havent trimed any of the brass for it. What i did was load .002 or .003 under samy spec. For max col. Got the exact number wrote down at the house but caint pull it from memory right now. Plunk tested fine and would load in the mag. I hand cycled a few rounds to check function. My Llama agreed with the set up so I got to loading. That being said the case mouth hits about the aformentioned thumbnail of the foward driving band. I seat and crim in the same steep. I admit i have had minute lead shaving but i beleave it is from using mixed brass. Not all rounds do this so its probably difrent amounts of spring back from the flairing die. This is just what has worked for me. Samy specs is always a good starting point for loading a new cartrage. From there u can talor the load for the gun.

[35remington]

To repeat.....avoid seating and crimping in the same step. Autoloaders as used here cannot distinguish variations in brass length as to accuracy and consistency and mixed length brass is not an accuracy or reliability handicap.

There is no need for the Lee Factory Crimp Die unless you like fixing loading errors the wrong way with the attendant downside of also "fixing" things that should have been better left alone. Get a standard taper crimp die instead.

[RogerDat]

I understand that minor variations in case length don't matter all that much. What I don't understand is how different brass length won't effect seating depth. COAL will stay the same since the nose and shell holder are the same distance apart but the edges of the brass won't engage the same place on the bullet itself. In this case "long" brass will cover the bullet shoulder, "short" brass will have some shoulder revealed. I have no reason to doubt the statements that this does not matter to accuracy or function in the 45 acp, I just do not understand why it is something to be avoided. Or why getting to consistent length would not make any difference.

I'm coming at this from revolver and if you want a consistent crimp then you have to start them all out with the same length, after that the variations from use are generally too small to matter. But the length of cases from a bucket of range brass, even sorted by head stamp is all over the place. So I give them an initial trim to put them at the same starting point.

[DougGuy]

It sure can't hurt to trim brass to an even length although to be honest I admit that I never have for .45 ACP even once trimmed brass.

Big +1 to crimping in a separate step. Another big +1 to the taper crimp.

Most 1911 barrels these days have virtually zero freebore in the throat and if they DO have any, it's likely no larger than .4515" in diameter which prevents seating a .452" boolit to it's optimum length. As a general rule, shorter/deeper seated boolits don't feed as well as longer COA so this is definitely a consideration.

I have always said that seating deeper to accommodate a too-tightly throated barrel just creates a second problem as a poor workaround to the first, and throating a barrel is an inexpensive sure fire fix that not only helps feeding and allows the COA to be set wherever the shooter chooses, but it also will have noticeable effects on group size. Barrels with .150" to .200" worth of freebore before the lead in to the rifling begins will shoot lights out with cast boolits.

[BNE]

Roger, an old trick is to put a factory 230 JRN in your shell holder and run it up. Then turn your seater die down to just above where it'll crimp, and then adjust the seater plug (with RN seater plug in it) only until it seats gently but firmly on the factory RN load, and lock it down. Then seat your bullets, and after seating them all, come back and readjust your seater die, screwing the seater plug up so it no longer contacts the bullet at all now, since it's already seated to the OAL you want, and screw the seater die down until it just removes the bell of the case and turns the case mouth SLIGHTLY into the bullet, in order to keep it from being shoved back in feeding, which can yield much higher pressures and bad results in several ways.

Since I went to crimping as a separate step, my FTF's have been near zero, and only seem to occur when I use culls to "round out" a batch of loads. What happens is that if you seat a bullet and crimp in the same step, the bullet is still being pushed downward into the case when and as the case is rammed up into the die and when it encounters the crimp part, it should turn the case mouth slightly into the bullet. As that case mouth is turned into the bullet slightly, WHILE the bullet is still moving downward very slightly, it pushes or plows up a tiny ring of lead in front of it. This ring is tiny, and most people think "That's not enough to hurt anything," but experience seems to prove that it DOES indeed hurt reliability. What happens is this tiny ring of lead tends to break off and stick to the front edge of the chamber, where the case mouth usually sits, and thus, as it builds up for several shots, and sticks to the front of the chamber, the subsequent rounds can't chamber fully due to the little lead buildup sticking to the front of the chamber. This usually isn't terribly hard to remove with the right brush, but it still can and likely will cause some malfunctions. I proved this from quite a bit of experience with 1911's many years ago, and I don't LIKE having to seat in a separate step, but I've come to do it consistently because it's eliminated almost all my FTF's.

Seating SWC's to the OAL that is produced by the die set up with the JRN seems to produce good feeding most of the time, but might need to be adjusted one way or the other (usually shorter, but YMMV from mine). The theory is that the bearing surface that hits the feed ramp is pretty close on the nose of most SWC's when the bullet is seated as described, but that really depends on just how wide the flat on the nose is. A smaller nose may need to be seated a little longer, and a wider one a tad shorter, usually, but again, your results may be different from mine. It all depends on the gun and spring tensions used.

Get it right, and cast will feed like water going downstream, and I don't LIKE seating as a separate step, but having reduced my FTF's so drastically, I do it. I'd rather have my lips pooched out at doing it as an extra (but brief - it's a quick process) step than on the range where jams or FTF's break my concentration and delay my getting better. I've been told I was crazy in this by more than one, but some seem not to care whether their "practice" ammo causes a jam now and then or not. I do. And besides, we never really know when our "practice rounds" might prove to be what we have in the gun when we really need it badly. It's good to know they'll function as needed!

Just my results and techniques, but they've worked for me for an awfully long time now.

This is the best explanation in my opinion. I had that exact same problem with that exact mold and 2 other molds. I fought adding the extra step, but it worked. I plunked 100% for a while and now I just check a few as I go. I pull the barrel and set it up in a small plastic vice in front of my loader. Plunk testing is quick and easy.

[35remington]

Varying case length will not matter because it is the bullet shoulder that must clear for the round to chamber, and it is the same distance from the base of the cartridge even if case length varies slightly.

We are not roll crimping here. Just turning in the mouth flare. Distance from bullet base to interior web, given cases are pretty close to identical capacity even with brand variances, is the same even if case lengths vary. Varying case lengths of the same brand have the same case capacity below the bullet even if case lengths vary. Remove the idea of varying case length as a handicap as it is not. Everybody shoots mixed brass, untrimmed, and gets excellent results that are more accuracy capable than the autoloading pistol itself.

A great deal of testing by many interested observers indicates how tightly the gun is fit to promote accuracy has far more to do with the issue of accuracy than case length.

Autoloading pistols are not fit that tightly, and the barrel occupies a slightly different place every time it goes into battery. Every hear the phrase "to measure with micrometers and cut with axes?" That is autoloading pistols when the idea of worrying about case length is suggested. The limitations of the platform moot variances in case length as the arm is not accurate enough to tell the difference. Factory rifles would struggle to tell the difference, and they're a lot more accurate than autoloading pistols are.

[scattershot]

I don't believe it is necessary to trim pistol brass. Use the fingernail method or the factory round nose trick to seat your boolits, and you should be good to go. The plunk test is a good check to see if the cartridge will feed in your barrel.

You don't say what pistol your friend has, but I had a Kahr once that wouldn't feed some factory ammo due to an extremely short leade in the rifling. You might check that, also.

good luck!

[35remington]

In a nutshell, trimming autoloader brass might make you feel better, but as to making any difference in observed results or functionality it does not. In other words, it's an utter waste of time.

[Victor N TN]

Before I got a progressive that stayed set up for 1 caliber only, I used a mil spec round in the seater die. Screw the lock ring up out of the way. Do the same with the seater stem. Put a mil spec cartridge in the shell holder. Raise the ram all the way. Screw the die itself in until it contacts the outside of the brass. Then screw the seater stem in until it hit the nose of the bullet. Lock everything down. Try 10 or 15 rounds like that and see how it works.

[John Boy]

I use SWC bullets so the standard COL of a LRN doesn't compute. Make up a couple of dummy rounds and adjust seating depth after cycling the rounds in the handgun. Works for me

[fredj338]

I understand that minor variations in case length don't matter all that much. What I don't understand is how different brass length won't effect seating depth. COAL will stay the same since the nose and shell holder are the same distance apart but the edges of the brass won't engage the same place on the bullet itself. In this case "long" brass will cover the bullet shoulder, "short" brass will have some shoulder revealed. I have no reason to doubt the statements that this does not matter to accuracy or function in the 45 acp, I just do not understand why it is something to be avoided. Or why getting to consistent length would not make any difference.

I'm coming at this from revolver and if you want a consistent crimp then you have to start them all out with the same length, after that the variations from use are generally too small to matter. But the length of cases from a bucket of range brass, even sorted by head stamp is all over the place. So I give them an initial trim to put them at the same starting point.

Service pistol brass just doesn't stretch. I've loaded some 45acp as much as 20x, couldn't even read the headstamp, no significant stretching. A diff of even 0.005" isn't affecting crimp, accuracy or headspace in most guns. measure a handful of 45acp brass, most will not be longer than SAAMI max, not even close.

[RogerDat]

Friend brought me the barrel for plunk testing, I ordered a taper crimp die from Titan. Until I get things ironed out I have the index rod out of the turret press and will use it as a single stage so I can use the same die for seating and crimping but do batches and adjust die between steps. That should allow me to push out 24 - 32 this weekend for him to try next week using the information and dimensions folks have provided.

I may order a case gage so I can plunk test without him having to bring me the barrel. Glad to know that while unnecessary to trim I didn't hurt anything by doing it. The brass on the 3 that failed to feed are longer brass than the rest of my range brass or factory. But the COAL is also longer than factory and that appears from the drawings and shared comments to be potentially a much bigger issue. I am wondering if the divot I see along the case edge might be a result of the bottom edge hitting because the bullet being out too far won't let the round ride in and tip up to align. Essentially wedges in at an angle.

I have a bunch of good ideas now to work with and from so thanks!

[35remington]

A smiley face a little below the case mouth is usually from a three point jam. Round didn't break over at the right time but absent a photo it is hard to be sure of that.

Once correct OAL is known a gage is not necessary as a caliper will let you know if it will fit.

[RogerDat]

A smiley face a little below the case mouth is usually from a three point jam. Round didn't break over at the right time but absent a photo it is hard to be sure of that.

Once correct OAL is known a gage is not necessary as a caliper will let you know if it will fit. Good to know because if I buy much more reloading stuff this month (or next for that matter) I'm going to find out exactly how much work the dear wife does because she will go on strike.

I would think the case gauge would be faster than caliper but I have caliper :-) Eventually I hope there will be little variation in each round so measuring every one won't be required. The ding looks more like the case edge caught something along the edge. I'll try for a picture but bullet close ups can be a challenge.

[35remington]

Simply use a short case to set up the crimp die and you will also be crimping enough for long ones. Measure case diameter at mouth with bullet seated after crimping and over bullet and set your records accordingly.

0.471" will work at case mouth in every gun I've tried in this caliber. 1.265" OAL with this particular bullet has worked even in my no leade Ruger P97.

Once you're set up a gage is useful for catching things like burrs and bent rims but a caliper will suffice to judge the correctness of the die setup. Of course if they have to go bang no matter what all should be run through the chamber or gage first.

[swheeler]

I'm taking a first pass at loading 45 ACP using a cast Lee TL452-230-2R bullet and am not sure on how deep I should seat the bullet. I have seen some posts that suggest leaving about a fingernail thickness of the driving band step showing above the brass. Others information suggests the step in the bullet should be flush with the brass edge.

I'm sizing the bullets to .452 tumble lubed (45/45/10) the range pick up R-P brass has been trimmed to .8795 with a Lee quick trim. 5.6 grains of Unique. I had some loaded with 4.3 grains of Titegroup but the Unique load seemed more accurate.

I'm loading these for a good friend who tried 32 rounds as a test batch and had 3 fail to feed, could not even push in slide, on those three the brass showed a mark that looked like it caught on something and the brass was longer than the store bought round he provided to compare with. So I trimmed the brass which I probably should have done in the first place. The ones I checked before loading test rounds were .895 so within spec but... while trimming a hundred I found a few that seemed to get more trimmed off so maybe some were running long.

These test rounds were loaded with bullet step even with the brass edge. I'm tempted to make the brass trimming the only change on the basis of only change one thing at a time. The dies are in a turret disk so still adjusted as they were for prior batch. I thought it was worth asking the folks that have experience before loading another batch of test rounds as maybe I should change the seating depth too.

This is the bullet
http://www.titanreloading.com/molds/bullet-molds/45-acp-45-auto-rim-45-colt/lee-dc-mold-tl452-230-2r-

You may get them to function fine but your brass is going to be too short and accuracy will suffer. People want to trim-trim-trim for the 45, measure some of your range picked up RP brass, OF RP will be .885 give or take .001 of an inch., loaded with a good taper crimp on it will measure .890" long+ or-. I think you will find a taper crimp is very different than a roll crimp, a roll crimp needs brass as close to the exact length of each other to give the same results(ie crimp in the same spot-same amount of roll under), depending on crimp to provide equal start pressures just doesn't work. You are trying to prevent a bullet getting pushed deeper into the case, your sizer/expander provides the bullet pull. I have no idea why Lee made this trimmer so short,.888" is the MINIMUM trim length, hell I've never seen a case that long unless it is new factory loaded round. my $.02 but sure one of the old sages will beg to differ, and I know which one.

[35remington]

I don't see cases that long either. If there was ever an unnecessary widget it is Lee's case length trimmer for 45 ACP.

[swheeler]

Lee T Barnum I believe :D

[RogerDat]

I'll just be glad if no harm is done by the trimming that was already done. I also read of sizing a second time by running brass back into the sizing die a second time after turning it 90* so that the second time it is sized turned. Suggested for getting rid of any out of round conditions. Not for every time since it works the brass a bit more but to get a bunch of battered brass to a better place to begin reloading from.

Sized the brass and some cast 230 grain, will have to wait until second coat of lube dries to start loading and plunking.

[swmass]

I just started loading for my 1911... Has a few hundred factory rounds through it with 0 problems... I loaded up my new 200gn lee SWC and had about 5 three point jams out of 75 rounds. I'm certain its gotta be the OAL. I'm shooting them at 1.24... Anyone out there know if going longer would help? or maybe going shorter? I havent loaded much 45 and have never loaded for a 1911 with LSWC.

[shoot-n-lead]

I just started loading for my 1911... Has a few hundred factory rounds through it with 0 problems... I loaded up my new 200gn lee SWC and had about 5 three point jams out of 75 rounds. I'm certain its gotta be the OAL. I'm shooting them at 1.24... Anyone out there know if going longer would help? or maybe going shorter? I havent loaded much 45 and have never loaded for a 1911 with LSWC.

We shoot a lot of 1911's and have found that 1.25 works very well in all of them.

You might want to make sure that it is not light powder charges causing the problem. Not sure how you are charging the cases, but some powder measures can be inconsistent with the charge they throw and if you are already shooting a light charge...if it varies a little under that charge, it can cause some functioning problems by simply not having sufficient power to cycle the gun properly.

[35remington]

Which specific Lee bullet, sw? That may be proper or improper OAL depending upon which one.

I would not expect a three point jam to be the result of a light powder charge, as the case clearly ejected and the magazine picked up the new round. It just did not get in the chamber.

RD, I'm afraid the "turning the brass ninety degrees trick" is pretty much wasted time as well. You're trying to improve accuracy by working on the wrong thing. If you want groups to improve, work on the gun. That's where the vast majority of accuracy improvement is to be found.

If you're worried about battered brass not being functional use a push through die as you're neglecting the bottom half of the case. This is SOP with range pickup brass fired from some....I repeat, some, autoloaders. One and done, as reloading brass from the same chamber does not require it every time.

[243winxb]

Seat deeper till you get a measurement on the bullet of .450" right in front of the case mouth.

[swmass]

I'm shooting a 200 grain lee swc over 4.6 grains of bullseye. I forgot I brought a few of the rounds home and measured them... All under 1.23. Not sure if it's a brass issue making those ones so short.. I know I was getting steady readings of 1.24 when I started. I'll load em out a little longer and see if they feed better

[35remington]

One more time.

Which specific Lee bullet? You just repeated yourself and gave no new information.

Try again.

[RogerDat]

...

RD, I'm afraid the "turning the brass ninety degrees trick" is pretty much wasted time as well. You're trying to improve accuracy by working on the wrong thing. If you want groups to improve, work on the gun. That's where the vast majority of accuracy improvement is to be found.

If you're worried about battered brass not being functional use a push through die as you're neglecting the bottom half of the case. This is SOP with range pickup brass fired from some....I repeat, some, autoloaders. One and done, as reloading brass from the same chamber does not require it every time.

I'm not at the working on accuracy stage yet. I'm working on consistent feed. Using 5.6 gr. Unique all rounds hit the target with the majority near the center is good enough at this point, not good enough is 3 failure to feed out of 32 rounds. Not my gun but now that I have the barrel I checked and those 3 failures failed to plunk into the barrel. Two have clear damage right at the edge of the case. I almost wondered if they might have gone into a die badly and been damaged.

My goal is to adjust dies to dimensions provided in responses for OAL and dia. at case mouth at the same time work against barrel accepting the round.
Hope to get another batch of 32 or 50 done this weekend that all plunk into the barrel to the right depth and have the gun owner try them next week. Once I get 100% feed I'll adjust the load by .2 grain increments for some test rounds to see if there is a load that increases accuracy significantly. Along with 100 - 150 rounds of know ok loads for plinking.

Friend moved far enough away now that it gets a little awkward trying to work up loads. He lives 30 miles west of work, I live 25 east of work in same area. We catch each other at lunch or after work. Both sort of busy to make a day of shooting time with that hour drive each way.

This casting and reloading stuff may be a headache sometimes but man the limitation that cost of ammo puts on the shooting time of so many I know is depressing.

[35remington]

Skip the turn the case ninety degrees business if you're addressing reliability as well. It has no bearing on the issue.

Pictures of the damaged case might resolve the cause of the problem. Measuring the cases over the damaged areas will show if the damage is sufficient to make the cases over spec and thus resistant to chambering.

I cannot make sense of your second pararaph above. Are you trying to say measurement has not revealed the problem to you? I suspect you're measuring the wrong things or the wrong places.

[DougGuy]

I may order a case gage so I can plunk test without him having to bring me the barrel.

This only insures your loads will fit in the gage, it has no relevance to the actual barrel in question. Since you are not going to be firing any loads out of the gage, I would use the barrel as a gage at least until you have the barrel and the gage for side by side comparison. Only then can you determine that any load that plunks in the gage will plunk in his barrel.

You can also send the barrel and get it throated, once this is done, it will plunk any load that will feed through the magazine regardless of OAL.

[swmass]

The non tumble lube design... Unless I'm missing something and there are multiple lee swc molds in 452 200 grain.

[35remington]

There are two Lee 200 SWC's. Yours is an imperfect HG 68 semi clone.

3 point jams mean the round has not broken over in time to make it in the chamber. If the rounds approximate 1.250" then you have a magazine timing problem. What kind are you using?

[swmass]

Ruger factory mags. I also had every jam with the 7 round mag that fits flush, not the 8 round mag that also with the gun

[Echo]

I use the Lyman 452460 SWC boolit for my .45's (and have for decades!) and seat it so the shoulder is about 1/32" proud of the case mouth. Did fine in my house and target guns, but didn't work in my Son's. His bbl had NO leade, the rifling starting almost immediately at the end of chamber. I assume yours has some leade. And that 1/32" inch is important, in that NO 45 case is as long as the chamber! The 1/32" takes care of the end-play...

[35remington]

SSw, do the jammed cases have a smiley face just below the case mouth? I am trying to distinguish between a hard 3 point jam or something else. Are these the 7 shot Ruger mags that have the springs that are super stout? If they have the followers with the front skirt they are Checkmates. I also presume the rim is not yet under the extractor.

The Lee bullet has a skinnier meplat than the original HG and the bullet strike on the feedramp is a little lower as a result. I would guess that makes this sort of jam more likely with the first few rounds out of the magazine, yes?

How do other bullet types feed? I have seen some complaints about the reliability of the Lee bullet here but have not experienced it myself.

Hopefully there is a gap between barrel ramp and frame ramp when the barrel is fully aftward in its rearward bedded position?

[swmass]

Wow, exactly. Smiley faces on the case below the case mouth, jams on the second or 3rd round. Did some google image searching and yes, they are checkmate mags.

[RogerDat]

Skip the turn the case ninety degrees business if you're addressing reliability as well. It has no bearing on the issue.

Pictures of the damaged case might resolve the cause of the problem. Measuring the cases over the damaged areas will show if the damage is sufficient to make the cases over spec and thus resistant to chambering.

I cannot make sense of your second pararaph above. Are you trying to say measurement has not revealed the problem to you? I suspect you're measuring the wrong things or the wrong places.

The three failed bullets won't drop into the barrel, not even close on 2 and decent amount of brass above the barrel on the 3rd one. The don't go in, they won't go in, they are too big diameter. You would not be able to force them into the barrel with your thumb. Deeper yes but fully seating them would require a hammer. Not that I can think of anyone off hand foolish enough to hammer a loaded round into the barrel. They are also long compared to factory rounds normally used in this specific firearm, those rounds are close to what folks have suggested here for COAL.

I have suggestions of diameters and COAL from people here, I have the barrel to use as a gauge. I will use the dimensions members have provided that work for them as a general target for size. Use barrel to check as I work toward those dimensions. I have to note that 29 out of 32 cycled fine, this makes me think either the brass was different or something in the process was different. Or the bullet was long and clipped the bottom edge on the way in.

I will attempt a picture but close enough to see damage requires light other than flash. Imagine what would happen to the edge of a case if something hit it right on the edge so that the rim crumpled a small amount. Only three explanations for it that I can come up with. I missed existing damage to case edge when I loaded it, I damaged it while loading it, or it hit something right on the edge of the brass after I loaded it.

Despite chamfering and trimming being a total waste of time, and turning the case not providing sizing as accurate as push thorough sizing die I am at least confident that the cases I'm fixing to load have no damage to the edge and are round. This should eliminate the first case. Damaged before loading.

I figure it will take some playing around and testing to see how gauge relates to dimensions found to work. Reaming the gun is not my call, I don't own the gun. I doubt the owner would be interested in reaming just so he can use a few free boxes of ammo from me. Especially since store bought has given him no problem. :-)

[35remington]

RD, absent pictures all I can say is don't attempt to use visibly damaged cases.

Sw, the magazines you used are normally less likely to exhibit the problems you experienced than pretty much any other type. How about the ramp clearances? Do other bullet types run without issue?

[goryshaw]

I loaded up a bunch of the 228-2r over the holidays. Unsized, just tumble lubed with BLL, seated to factory hardball length. Wouldn't pass a plunk test. Adjusted the seating stem 1/4 turn at a time until they passed. Loaded about 25 rounds before I remembered the Lee .452 push through die in the garage. Sized and re-lubed the 250 or so I had cast, then reset the seating die to factory hardball length and tried again. No joy, went through the same routine again, and ended up at the exact same length as the unsized ones. That bullet just seems to have a fat ogive and needs to be seated deeper. Once it warms up I'll see if there is any significant difference in accuracy between the .452 and the unsized bullets.

[swmass]

It fed all the hardball I shot before I got my mold. Although it was only 100 rounds. Maybe I'll look into a 230gn RN mold. I love the way the swc mold casts too. Just seems nicer/ more compliant than my other 2 cavities. I'll try stretching out oal a little before searching for a RN mold.

[35remington]

Thing I can't account for is reports from others that they could not get the Lee 200 SWC HG to work consistently as that's not my problem. While I would suggest sticking with your current seven shot magazines and try other bullet designs to see if the bullet itself is problematic as I haven't had issue with the Ruger seven shot magazines, it is always SOP to try another magazine design to see if that one will run where your current ones will not with this particular bullet.

gs, the 228 is a 1r, not a 2r. The 230 is a 2r. Look up Lee's listing of the moulds. Therefore if a 228-1r is what you have it is usually loaded to 1.220" or shorter to clear most leades. The 230-2r is loaded to a longer OAL of near 1.265" as the ogive more correctly and closely approximates 230 FMJ.

[RogerDat]

This a factory round and the three that failed to feed, it is very hard to see where the edge of the case is dinged but it is facing straight at the camera.

Looking at the length of the brass and OAL of the reloads compared to the factory might make it clearer why I thought trimming the brass was in order. To get same OAL I would have the shoulder of bullet well down in the case.

158905

This is the really nice wood box for powder storage this friend made me, he offered to do it as soon as I was set to buy the wood. I think you can see why I want him to have some ammo on me.

158914

[35remington]

Overall length of factory ball approximates 1.265 which is what you are trying to do with the Lee bullet. Measure a factory fresh 230 to compare.

[mjwcaster]

While trying to diagnose a photo on the web is troublesome, it looks to me like those rounds may be under crimped, needing the flare removed.
Especially the last one.
Even in person I have a hard time judging crimp/flare removal.
I had one round in my last batch that failed to feed and suspected that it missed the crimp stage.
I brought it home and crimped it, then it fired fine.
What I look for is a slight ring at the end of the case to indicate crimping.
Takes good light, but I can see a color change on crimped brass.

[RogerDat]

1.265 OAL with .470 diameter passes the plunk test but sits a little deeper than the factory ammo. The top of the extraction groove is in the barrel and there is a slight lip on top. Seated to 1.270 OAL the top of the extraction groove is close to same location as factory and there is very little lip on top, bullet sits just below flush. Factory sits with extraction groove higher.

So which is better, 1, 2, or 3

Number 1
158922

Number 2
158923

Number 3
158924

[35remington]

1.270 flirts a little too closely with max OAL of 1.275. No factory ball exceeds 1.265" for an average and you should mimic this to the degree possible. Flush with the hood is max for easy chambering in some guns where the breech touches the hood and a little below harms nothing and allows for variance in manufacturing your rounds.

If any part of the case mouth exceeds about .473" chambering is inhibited. Check your case mouth diameters. Taper crimping as mentioned above is something that was discussed earlier but do double check your diameter as it appears you are still overlooking something essential that you have not applied yet. Finished diameter should be not more than .472" and to be sure all rounds of varying length are crimped many will apply an average of .470" or so.

It has been said here and elsewhere that failure to apply crimp is a major cause of chambering problems many have in being new to loading the round. The other half is wrong OAL.

Once you get it you will find the cartridge is easy to load......just apply a few necessary steps unfailingly and the gun will run like the designer intended.

[35remington]

Got a closeup of one seated 1.265"? Let me see how much bullet shoulder sits above the case mouth.

[RogerDat]

Case diameter is running .470 to .471 I'll get a picture of the case showing bullet shoulder. The #2 picture above is 1.265 my only concern with that length was the extraction groove which sits lower than #3 which is factory. The extraction groove of #1 is closer to factory round in #3 but factory is FMJ not cast lead.

I saw a drawing that showed too deep a "plunk" depth would cause case to index on extractor in actual use.

Do appreciate the assist in getting the process nailed down. One step at a time.

[35remington]

The idea that a "too deep" depth of the dimensionality you show will cause the case to headspace on the extractor in a 1911 is nonsensical as the round would have to be considerably shorter than most cases actually are and chamber would have to be longer than most chambers actually are, including your cases and chamber. Most of the stuff you see promulgated on the issue is wrong, including an analysis of the issue in Handloader by guys who should know better.

Peruse the following. It caused quite a long thread and some indignant responses from many that hadn't actually tried measuring things, but I have yet to encounter a guy who actually measured things that proved otherwise. Depths of the type you are showing in the photos will still headspace on either the case mouth or the bullet shoulder stopping against the leade.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/t-69593.html

Here is the image I want you to look at. The case has to be a lot further from the breechface to headspace on the extractor than your pictures show for it to actually occur.

158988

Zoom into the photo by clicking on it. The case would have to go forward way further than yours are doing to headspace on a 1911 extractor.

[RogerDat]

Thanks for the picture. I think I see what you mean, the round would need to short enough to have half the extraction groove in the barrel before the extractor would be limiting the seating depth.

[swmass]

Happy to report I made up 75 rounds with an oal of 1.265 and put them all down range tonight with no stoppages. Now if I could get that 200 grain bullet to hit POA. Lighter bullets always seem to hit a little lower for me. Dropped the charge down to 4.1gn of bullseye and I'm about two inches low. Very accurate round though. Might try 3.9 to see if it slows the bullet down and brings it up a hair. My sights are fixed for elevation and I'm assuming they're set to hit POA with 230 grain bullets.

[RogerDat]

Right side is the longer COAL at 1.274 , the left is 1.265 I'm not sure the .009 difference will be discernible in the picture.

159058

[35remington]

Your 1.265 looks just like mine and I would use that. 1.274 is too long.

[RogerDat]

Your 1.265 looks just like mine and I would use that. 1.274 is too long.
He ended up with 44 of the 1.265 and 6 of the 1.274 Since the longer is right at the SAAMI limit I thought it was worth testing a few with that length. I'm assuming a case gauge might allow for that size as it is within max so knowing it will or will not cycle at that length seemed worth examining.

I won't load these often, once I get something that feeds reliably I will crank out 200 to 250 rounds and probably not do it again for many months. Probably not until sometime in the summer or fall.

[35remington]

Too long risks dragging against the front of the magazine. Prudent handloaders do not load to the SAAMI limits as it allows no leeway for variation in loading.

[Schrag4]

I just saw this thread and it has me wondering something. I always considered the OAL to be a load data parameter that you should not go below for fear of increasing pressure. In other words, going below the listed OAL is (sort of) no different than going over the max powder charge in that they both result in an increase in pressure. Now I understand that you can go longer safely (obviously), and perhaps the OP is asking what's the optimal length for feeding and accuracy, assuming that it will end up being longer than the load data calls for?

Forgive me if this has been discussed already in this thread. This seems like on of those fundamentally important things, but perhaps I've been wrong about it all along (I doubt it, otherwise bullet setback wouldn't be a safety issue). Or perhaps it's just assumed that the OP knows to disregard any OAL posted here if it goes below the published load data for his bullet/powder combination.

[35remington]

Can't go longer in this instance as it is already near SAAMI max. See my previous post as to why.

"Optimal length" is easy. Duplicate what the gun was meant to feed, the OAL of factory ball with a ball similar bullet, as suggested here. In a practical sense the shoulder locations sets OAL as the shoulder generally cannot be below the case mouth or the taper crimp has nothing to turn into.

This limits the "longer overall length" attempts as well as too far out won't chamber as the bullet strikes the leade. Overall length is not at all limitless as there is a fairly narrow range of OAL's the bullet can be seated to and still function and fit.

[RogerDat]

The load of 5.6 grain Unique with 1.265 COAL is slightly under the 5.8 grain at 1.27 COAL that Alliant lists as a recipe for this bullet weight. So less powder with slightly less COAL should work out to close to the same pressure. And within the range of data in my Lyman manual for 230 & 225 grain.


At 1.274 COAL used in the initial batch with this load the recoil and ejection were described as "typical" but mild. Little shorter and same load of powder will be good test batch, little chance of over pressure since some have loaded these at 6+ grains. 5.6 is a load I can repeat at will using the Lee auto disk, variations from it may require a different hole or adjustable charge bar.

[Schrag4]

The adjustable charge bar is OK for some of the finer powders, but I won't use it for Unique. Unique meters just so-so on the disks, going into a round cavity. The bar, at 5.6gr of unique, probably wouldn't work so well. Don't get me wrong, I love Unique, I just don't use the charge bar for it like I do for powders like AA#5.

[RogerDat]

The adjustable charge bar is OK for some of the finer powders, but I won't use it for Unique. Unique meters just so-so on the disks, going into a round cavity. The bar, at 5.6gr of unique, probably wouldn't work so well. Don't get me wrong, I love Unique, I just don't use the charge bar for it like I do for powders like AA#5. I have had mixed results with the charge bar also. On a recent batch of 44 mag with 2400 where I was going closer to max than my normal plinking load I just went with pro disk that was closest without going over and then dumped on scale to trickle up. Tightgroup has been the only thing that I have used charge bar with that was really very consistent at lower volume loads. I have seen a fair number of loads for 45 ACP with TG and would really rather use it for these rounds but right now I'll settle for close to point of aim and reliable feed. Baby steps, baby steps. :-)