Why is all this stuff in my lead?

[ccjcc81]

I'm new to alloying. I want to create a soft lead at 96.5% Pb, 2% Sn, 1.5% Sb, for a BHN of about 11. My uncle has a little stash of lead from different sources, and he generously gave me some when I told him I want to start casting. He gave me 3 different types of lead, and I made each item up into separate ingots. The first thing was a large lead pipe, which I got about 100 pounds out of. He then gave me a 5 gallon bucket full of wheel weights, which I got about 60 1 pound ingots out of, he took half of that. He then gave me a mystery lead. He doesn't remember where he got it, but it was 2 large 15 pound ingots. The mystery lead had a very low melting point, and took forever to freeze. I kept throwing molten ingots. I melted that into 1 pound ingots and he gave me half of them. I had the ingots scanned, and I don't understand the results. Each batch has a lot of Silicon in it. Why is that? Here are the readings I got from my local scrap yard on the metal. Sample 1 is the lead pipe, 3 and 4 are the wheel weights, and 5 was the mystery lead. Can you guys tell me if this stuff is worthy to cast bullets from with all the Silicon and Phosphorous in it? Any idea what Sample 5 is with such a high Antimony level? And why does the lead pipe have less lead in it than the wheel weights?

Thanks guys.

Sample 1, lead pipe
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r299/ccjcc77/alloy%201_zpsvjhkunga.jpg (http://s147.photobucket.com/user/ccjcc77/media/alloy%201_zpsvjhkunga.jpg.html)
Sample 3 and 4, wheel weights
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r299/ccjcc77/alloy%203_zpsuz8wavo9.jpg (http://s147.photobucket.com/user/ccjcc77/media/alloy%203_zpsuz8wavo9.jpg.html)
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r299/ccjcc77/alloy%204_zpsq9oq683z.jpg (http://s147.photobucket.com/user/ccjcc77/media/alloy%204_zpsq9oq683z.jpg.html)
Sample 5, mystery lead
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r299/ccjcc77/alloy%205_zpsw14phoe1.jpg (http://s147.photobucket.com/user/ccjcc77/media/alloy%205_zpsw14phoe1.jpg.html)

[Chris24]

16% antimony? That has to be Linotype. The wheel weight samples look about right. As for all the silicon in the pipe, maybe it's sand that was embedded in it when you melted it.

[ccjcc81]

There was a lot of fine sandy dirt in the pipe. My uncle told me it wouldn't hurt anything, and to melt it like that. How will that affect casting bullets? Is there any way to get it out?

[Retumbo]

You
are
over
thinking
this
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[country gent]

Fluxing or reducing with sawdust or wood chips and a little parrafin or wax should help remove it. Put some wood chips on the melt and let char to amake sure they are dry. add a small chunk of wax or parrafin and stir with a wood paint stick working the chared wood wax mix into lead and lead thru the chared material. When the wax is added it will more than likely ignite into flames so be carefull. The ash chared wood will help hold the sands and impurities so they can be removed with a spoon or other tool. You may want to do this 2-3 times when smelting and or alloying, good clean ingots are much easier to work with when casting bullets. The saps and carbon in the wood chips are what do the work here the ash charred material seems to bond with the impurities making them easier to remove. When stiring be sure to scrapes sides and bottom of pot to disloge any thing sticking to it and work the lead and flux good for several minutes each time. When done right and good clean lead in the pot the surfave looks almostlike a mirror.

[typz2slo]

I have analyzed lead pipe for a member here and it was high in antimony as well.

[triggerhappy243]

correct me if I am wrong. the silica sand would be bad... say abrasive?

[Chris24]

2% silicon isn't high enough to affect it much. Just flux it again and/or alloy it with purer lead.

[Motard]

silicon sand is like sandpaper. But I think fluxing again it will disappear as per Country Gent instructions

[popper]

Metal Production: Industrial sand plays a critical role in the production of a wide variety of ferrous and non-ferrous metals. In metal production, silica sand operates as a flux to lower the melting point and viscosity of the slags to make them more reactive and efficient. Lump silica is used either alone or in conjunction with lime to achieve the desired base/acid ratio required for purification. These base metals can be further refined and modified with other ingredients to achieve specific properties such as high strength, corrosion resistance or electrical conductivity. Ferroalloys are essential to specialty steel production, and industrial sand is used by the steel and foundry industries for de-oxidation and grain refinement. I would assume a specialized pipe metal. Cutting with pure to get Sb down to useable value (3-4%) and there will be extremely low % of Si or P. Typically we use Sb >= Sn alloys. You want Sn higher?

[ccjcc81]

Some good advice. I'm going to remelt it and flux it as soon as I can this evening. I like the paint stick idea, I wouldn't have thought of that. I won't get to analyse it again until next weekend, I'll let you know how it turns out.

[ccjcc81]

I would assume a specialized pipe metal. Cutting with pure to get Sb down to useable value (3-4%) and there will be extremely low % of Si or P. Typically we use Sb >= Sn alloys. You want Sn higher?

Yes, I want more Sn. I want a good mold fill out, and I don't want the bullet to shrink too much when it cools. But I want to try a very soft slug. I'm going to load some powder coated 147 gr hollowpoints for SHTF stockpiling, and I want a really soft, pliable bullet. My uncle, on the other hand, likes as much Sb as he can get in it. He'd probably mold linotype bullets if he could. But, from what I've read, bullets with high antimony will shatter on impact. I don't want my HP ammo to explode on impact, I want expansion or deformation, yet deep penetration. That's just what I want to do. What I've been reading here is that hard casting is overrated. I want to see if that's true for me. I'll be doing ballistic testing when I find a load that works.

Having said that, I'm always open to hear opposing opinions. I recognize that I'm green, and I still need tutelage.

[country gent]

The soft lead slugs work well but still may break up or disentigrate depending on target. I shoot 20-1 lead ti in my BPCR rifles 400 grn in 40 cal and 550 in 45 cal these bullets are 1.3-1.4" lon. when they hit the steel shillouettes the target jumps rings and all but about .090 of the base turns to dust and lead smear on the target on impact. Soft lead tin alloy may do what you want nicely but bullet fit is going to be more important to not get leading from them also.

[ccjcc81]

The soft lead slugs work well but still may break up or disentigrate depending on target. I shoot 20-1 lead ti in my BPCR rifles 400 grn in 40 cal and 550 in 45 cal these bullets are 1.3-1.4" lon. when they hit the steel shillouettes the target jumps rings and all but about .090 of the base turns to dust and lead smear on the target on impact. Soft lead tin alloy may do what you want nicely but bullet fit is going to be more important to not get leading from them also.

You don't use any antimony? I hear what you're saying about size. I'm going to slug the barrel of my pistol tonight, but let me ask you this. If I slug my 9mm barrel, and it's exactly .355, and my lee mold is throwing exactly .356, is that good enough? I've read that I need at least .002 bigger to keep leading down and to get accurate. How do I get that extra .001? I'm hoping powder coating will do it.

[popper]

I'm not sure anyone has shot 20:1 from a 9mm with any luck. PC should give you 1-1 1/2 thou. increase. I use 3% Sb AC in my 356 TC nose, coated, works great. Shot that alloy in 40SW into a rock pile, no shattering. I tried something like 20:1 in 40SW with NO luck. Leaded like crazy from stripping. Hard ball alloy is 94/6/2 and is typically what is called hard cast. Good for rifle, not needed for pistol. Cut it 50/50 for WW, some larger cal. lower pressure guys cut it 50/50 again and it works. Get some COPPER choreboy to strand around your cleaning brush to remove leading. As a new 9mm guy, I's suggest trying WW alloy and work softer to see how you like it. Hope that helps.

[Retumbo]

silicon sand is like sandpaper. But I think fluxing again it will disappear as per Country Gent instructions

You realize its not sand? Right? Solution is homogeneous.


Silicon is a metalloid (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metalloid), readily either donating or sharing its four outer electrons and it typically forms four bonds. Like carbon, its four bonding electrons give it opportunities to combine with many other elements or compounds to form a wide range of compounds.

[Seeker]

Flux, flux and flux some more. Don't just stir and scim. Scrape the sides of your smelt pot and you'll find all kinds of dirt and sand will come floating to the top.

[ccjcc81]

I fluxed the heck out of last night. Used sawdust and some thinly split firewood to stir, threw a couple of old birthday candles on there for good measure. I fluxed each pot at least 4 times. I started with 104 ingots, ended up with 93. I might have poured the new ones heavy, but I did scrape a good bit of slag.

I'm going to do the remaining 60 or 70 lbs tonight. I'll get a reading on them on Saturday and report back.

Thanks for the good advice guys.

[RogerDat]

Slotted spoon from the thrift store is good for skimming and scraping when fluxing. If you can grind a flat nose on the end that helps doing the bottom of the pot. Those mesh ladles for deep frying are great for cleaning out WW clips and sifting the ash and other crud into a fine powder that skims well.

Wood pulls impurities out, wax drives tin back in.

On the silicon, I had the scrap yard tell me they get silicon on the gun from barrels of machine tool shavings they scan. These get lubricant on the gun view port and it is a PITA to clean it all off. Since they are just doing gross identification of metals they don't generally worry about cleaning that little bit of lubricant off because they don't care that the reading is a couple show a couple of percent tjat is in error.