Segregating brass, neck turning?

[MIEagle]

I've been shooting greasers for the past several years in my .45-70 Browning 1885 Hiwall BPCR and have just started interest in PP bullets. Country Gent has been kind enough to give me some tips on this stuff. I thought I'd throw this out for general discussion to see if there is a consensus. I bought some 500 gr pure lead .442 slicks from BACO and a roll of Staedler 8# sketch paper measuring 0.022. My finished wrapped bullet measures 0.4475. To hold the PP bullet, I run my brass up into a .45 cal taper crimp die just enough to loosely hold the bullet, maybe an 1/4 inch, making a little bottle neck. I'm going to get the proper neck sizing die from Meacham when my fun money comes in. Questions are: Do you keep brass separate for greasers and the PP bullets to possibly prevent work hardening the case necks? Do you folks bother to turn case necks, inside case reaming and check for concentricity of the loaded round, like the bench rest shooters do? And, when inserting a PP bullet nose first into the muzzle, I notice a slight wobble. I think I need an alloyed bullet, a bigger diameter bullet, or thicker paper. Thank you for your thoughts.

[dave roelle]

Brass length is the most important feature along with consistent hardness for either GG or PP

There will be some small difference in length due to the different size case mouth in GG versus PP, i find its not enough to make any difference-----size your brass to be chamber length -0.005/0.010 inches and you'll be in good shape

On bullet diameter, a "net" fit PP bullet is great for match grade ammo even up to 0.002 interference is used, where you will have a clean bore every shot ( wiping the bore)---hunting PP ammo needs a bit of clearance to deal with fouling on follow up shots where cleaning can't be accomplished in a hunting situation------ "shooting dirty".

Current wisdom is a larger bullet with thinner paper---0.444 to 0.446 patched to 0.450/0.452--paper thickness of 0.0015 to say 0.0017

something in your numbers seems amiss 2 wraps of 0.0022 paper is 0.0088 which should be around 0.450 with a 0.442 bullet ?

Hope this helps a bit

Dave

[MIEagle]

Dave, Thank you for your comments. I remeasured everything and the only thing different was the thickness of the paper. I believe it to be 0.0020 using my old Mitutoyo micrometer. Last June I made a Cerrosafe chamber casting. The bore measures .4515 and the groove diameter .4615 using my Midway dial calipers. The bullets are .442 and .0080 should mike out to .450. However, I measure the wrapped bullets at .4475. Subtracting .442 from .4475 gives .0055, divided by 4 gives .001375. Perhaps my micrometer measuring paper thickness needs work. I will try a different paper or a larger bullet. Thanks again.

[dave roelle]

Hi Eagle-------------did you by chance wrap these wet ?-----shrinkage could be the culprit

I dry wrap and so don't have that to contend with

You might try measuring say 10 thicknesses of paper and divide out to the 1 sheet thickness


You'll find the combination----study wad stacks and bullet hardness-----size, hardness and wads all effect the success of PP shooting------------there are many combinations that work

Stay safe

Dave

[Don McDowell]

Have you tried just resizing your cases and then see if the bullets are a tighter fit?

[MIEagle]

Thanks to all. I reread Brent Danielson's blog and he mentioned cooking parchment paper. The wife happened to have some! Using that as a patch, I dry patched several .442's and the diameter came out to .450+! I pushed one through the bore with my wiping rod and it went through easily with a wee bit of friction. It also fits much better in my cases so I may not have to worry about messing with the cases necks. Just loaded 'em and shoot 'em. The next batch of bullets I order will be .444 and see how they come out with the Staedler 8# sketching paper as I have a roll of the stuff.

[Gunlaker]

If you find that your new .444" bullets are a tiny bit too large with your paper, you will do no harm by uniformimg them with a Lee .451" push through sizer.Chris.

[dave roelle]

Glad your on the right track Eagle------Chris makes a very good point !!!!

Have fun stay safe

Dave

[Lincoln Creek]

Questions are: Do you keep brass separate for greasers and the PP bullets to possibly prevent work hardening the case necks? Do you folks bother to turn case necks, inside case reaming and check for concentricity of the loaded round, like the bench rest shooters do?

I have the same questions. Anyone do these things?

[Lead pot]

I've been shooting greasers for the past several years in my .45-70 Browning 1885 Hiwall BPCR and have just started interest in PP bullets. Country Gent has been kind enough to give me some tips on this stuff. I thought I'd throw this out for general discussion to see if there is a consensus. I bought some 500 gr pure lead .442 slicks from BACO and a roll of Staedler 8# sketch paper measuring 0.022. My finished wrapped bullet measures 0.4475. To hold the PP bullet, I run my brass up into a .45 cal taper crimp die just enough to loosely hold the bullet, maybe an 1/4 inch, making a little bottle neck. I'm going to get the proper neck sizing die from Meacham when my fun money comes in. Questions are: Do you keep brass separate for greasers and the PP bullets to possibly prevent work hardening the case necks? Do you folks bother to turn case necks, inside case reaming and check for concentricity of the loaded round, like the bench rest shooters do? And, when inserting a PP bullet nose first into the muzzle, I notice a slight wobble. I think I need an alloyed bullet, a bigger diameter bullet, or thicker paper. Thank you for your thoughts.


Some of my rifle chambers don't except a GG bullet because they are to tight and the brass never needs sizing to hold a bore diameter PP bullet. The rifles that have a "standard chamber" that is very large even for a GG I don't keep separated for patched or grooved bullets. Those I use a taper crimp die and I have neck expanders I make at the proper diameter for the bullet diameters I use that expand the inside neck diameter enough to hold the bullet so it does not drop out when you hold the shell upside down.
I have a Meacham bushing dies, but I will not use it because the way it is designed. It has to sharp of a entrance of the bushing unlike a taper crimp die. The bushing gives the case mouth to a chance to get nicked down eccentric, it's not concentric like a taper crimp die will give you. Just put the case in a V block and put a 1/2 thousands dial indicator on the case neck and you will see the needle go pin to pin a lot of times. The die is good but the shell holder is mostly the problem from dirt or the variances in rim diameters or slop in the ram movement in the press. Plinking loads this does not matter but it does at extended range match shots.
I don't worry about split case necks, I never found one yet shooting my black powder rifles, straight wall or bottle neck cases.

As far as the patched diameters of my bullets. This I regulate rifle to rifle by the action it has. Falling block like a Sharps or the Stevens. The sharps does not cam in a round and those rounds I patch a little looser so I can seat it by thumb with out to much strain. I patch them at bore or not more then .001" over if the chamber has a 45 degree chamber end because the steep transition is not to friendly seating a over sized patched bullet. The chambers I have a 4 and less to 5 degree transition funnel shaped chamber ends like most of the vintage rifles had and with those I can seat bullets patched two thousands over bore and more with the Stevens action that will cam a round unlike a Sharps action will. The Sharps action a case like Norma that has a tapered case head I can use a tighter patched bullet. I think this is why vintage rifles like the Maynard and some of the military rifles used a case like the Maynard that has a very pronounced slope in the case head that would help seating a shell in a fouled chamber.
There is nothing worse then being a right handed shooter loading a tight fitting round in a rifle with a side hammer like the sharps has. Worse yet when the rifle is scoped. :)
Again I don't separate my brass for PP or GG. And I patch to the diameter as tight as I can and still seat the round with out a struggle for best bullet/bore alignment.