ruger blackhawk 45/45acp reloading problems

[siamese4570]

Recently got a ruger bisley in 45lc/45acp. Had DougGuy open up the throats, so that is OK now. As you probably know in this gun the 45 acp headspace on the rim. When I shoot lead in the 45acp, the little shoulder that the case headspace on shaves a little lead which builds up quickly and prevents the following rounds from chambering. Anybody loading for a ruger like this and encountered this problem?
Siamese4570

[M-Tecs]

If you are seating and crimping at the same time this is most likely the source of your problem. I use a separate taper crimp die and have no issues.

[Poygan]

I have one in the new model and have no issues with the .45 acp. Perhaps I don't run as many rounds through it as you do?

[siamese4570]

M-Tecs: I'll try seating and crimping in separate steps. Sounds reasonable.
Siamese4570

[DougGuy]

What diameter are you sizing to? If the boolit won't go through the throat with finger pressure it can do this. I size throats to .4525" +/- .0002" so a .452" boolit should go through the throats in both cylinders with finger pressure.

+1 on the taper crimp die in a separate stage.

[contender1]

Correction; 45 acp headspaces off the case mouth,,, not the rim. I fully agree you need a taper crimp to solve the problem,,, if the bullets are the correct size.

[Char-Gar]

Recently got a ruger bisley in 45lc/45acp. Had DougGuy open up the throats, so that is OK now. As you probably know in this gun the 45 acp headspace on the rim. When I shoot lead in the 45acp, the little shoulder that the case headspace on shaves a little lead which builds up quickly and prevents the following rounds from chambering. Anybody loading for a ruger like this and encountered this problem?
Siamese4570

What bullet? Post a pic of a loaded round.

[apen]

Correction; 45 acp headspaces off the case mouth,,, not the rim. I fully agree you need a taper crimp to solve the problem,,, if the bullets are the correct size.

In a revolver

[M-Tecs]

The 45 acp does not have a rim. Moon clips don't work in single action revolvers so they have to headspace on the case mouth. One source for problems is seating and taper crimping in one operation. As the crimp is being applied the bullet is still being pushed deeper. With lead this can raise a lead shaving. In an auto the slide has enough force to push it out of the way. With the single actions you don't have this. With double action revolvers most are chamber deep enough that this isn't as big of an issue.

[apen]

Got it thatnk Mtecs

[Whiterabbit]

I have a few suggestions. two were already suggested. If you are roll crimping (who roll crimps 45 acp??) then taper rimp. Crimp in separate steps.

To this I add, crimp less. that will remove less bell, and make it easier for the case mouth to catch the lip of the chamber. Also make it harder for the case to shave lead.

[contender1]

"In a revolver"

The OP is talking about a single-action revolver.

"ruger bisley in 45lc/45acp"

I was not trying to be a smart alec,,, just pointing out the fact that there is a difference in where it headspaces on. And I didn't need to repeat the good info already posted.

[Char-Gar]

I like the idea of 45 ACP cylinder in a SA revolvers. I have owned several and two still live here. There are some "special issues" involved in loading for them. With factory 45 ACP ammo or jacketed bullet reloads, there is no issues at all. Now here is the "special issue";

The headspace ledge is quite wide and has no taper or leade at the rear end of the throat. Cast bullets that intrude into the throat can be a problem loaded into the charge hole. Cast bullets that do not intrude can hit that sharp wide ledge and scrape lead, which seems to be the issue in this thread.

Here is my solution to this issue. I put a .0005 taper/lead at the rear end of the cylinder throat to guide the bullet into the throat. I use a brass lap with 600 grit emery paste for the job.

This is a big help, but rounds must be taper crimped to preserve the ACP cases ability to headspace on the case mouth.

I like a roll crimp on Keith's 452423 (240 grain PB SWC), so I load this bullet in 45 Cowboy Special cases. This is a special case that is nothing more than a 45 ACP case with a 45 Colt rim. This works well and the round now headspaces on the rim and a roll crimp can be applied in the crimp groove. I load this bullet over 4.5/Bullseye and it is plenty stout for all my needs and shoots to the sights.

Here are pics of my current two SA sixguns that have 45 ACP cylinders.

[Outpost75]

Sometimes you may get a sharp wire edge at the transition of the chamber stop surface and the cylinder throat. This is easily corrected by gentle lapping using 600 grit lapping compound on a .30-'06 case and turning the case by hand with a tap handle. This removes the sharp corner without affecting headspace.

158529
158531

[Whiterabbit]

I like the idea of 45 ACP cylinder in a SA revolvers. .

Coolest part? NRA book load of 300 grain bullet (like the LEE 300 which would never work in a semi auto) with blue dot, works GREAT in revolvers chambered in 45 acp.

I don;t own any 45 acp cylinders for my 45 cal revolvers, but if I did, it would be the only thing I would shoot in them!

[carolina sorillo]

Moon clips don't work in single action revolvers.

This is not totally accurate. I had an extra cylinder laying around that I bought off Gunbroker years ago and sent it off to TKCustom for a little trim.;-) I still have the factory .45Colt cylinder and now I also have a cylinder that will accept .45 colt normally or mooned acp's. Granted, the cylinder does have to be removed to reload the clips but, that's still a faster reload than the conventional SA reload.



C.S.

[M-Tecs]

Before the 45 Cowboy Special brass it was not uncommon to have 45 ACP cylinder counter bored to 45 Auto Rim. I have read that some can get by with .020" thick moon clips and 45 ACP in 45 Colt cylinders without machining.

How is the accuracy with 45 ACP in 45 Colt cylinders?

All my 45 Ruger's and 45 USFA's are dual cylinder. Never really cared for the idea of using moon clips and having to removing the cylinder but I never looked at it from the speed aspect. That's what the 625's are for.

I might rethink that it if I own one of the Sheriffs/Shop Keepers models without an ejector rod. Normally I just hone the chamber so the case fall freely with gravity. Rarely have to use the ejector rod.

[WALLNUTT]

Are the moon clips used for headspacing in a double action revolver? I thought they were for extraction and the case still headspaced on the mouth. I agree with the taper crimp in a separate operation. Is the 45 Cowboy brass thinner? I tried shortening 45 Colt brass but it didn't work.

[M-Tecs]

Are the moon clips used for headspacing in a double action revolver? I thought they were for extraction and the case still headspaced on the mouth. I agree with the taper crimp in a separate operation. Is the 45 Cowboy brass thinner? I tried shortening 45 Colt brass but it didn't work.

It depends on the revolver. Some of the 1917's are though bored and some headspace on the mouth. Most of the old S&W 1955's headspaced on the mouth. The one I owned had excessive headspace without clips. I have two 625. One headspace properly on the mouth and one doesn't.

Most will go bang without clips but you lose accuracy. With the one 625 that requires clips I can shoot it without but occasionally I get a nipple on the primer that will lock the gun up. This is from the primer backing out than being reseated under pressure.

[jblee10]

I shoot 45ACP almost exclusively in a Ruger Blackhawk convertible. And it does headspace on the mouth of the case. I haven't had much trouble with shaving a ring of lead off of cast bullets, but it happens on occasion. I suggest sizing .001 smaller then the chamber throats. Other then that, maybe some brands of brass will be thicker and lessen the problem. If I'm planning a lot of shooting, I carry a brass brush and the occasional twist of the brush in each chamber gets me going again.

[carolina sorillo]

How is the accuracy with 45 ACP in 45 Colt cylinders? I haven't worked up a load specifically for that cylinder but the loads I had for the 1911 showed promise. From 15yards I got a 3.5" group. Not great but good enough for SD.

I never looked at it from the speed aspect. That's what the 625's are for. Getting cylinder machined about $150, Smith 625 about $700, or more!

I might rethink that it if I own one of the Sheriffs/Shop Keepers models without an ejector rod. That's what this is, 3.75" Birdshead Vaquero!


Thanks,
C.S.

[siamese4570]

Thanks for all your suggestions. Loaded 15 rounds seating and crimping in separate operations. That should tell me if that's the problem. I did notice my crimp die won't smooth out all the case mouth flair. The caused the loaded round to chamber hard. Ran the finished rounds into the carbide sizer die just far enough smooth this out. Will go try them out this weekend. Hope it works.
Siamese4570

[CraigOK]

I had the same issue with mine using 230 lrn bullets that I used in my glock 21. Bought 200 pieces of startline brass to use just for the Blackhawk. I just switched over to hornady HAP bullets bc I had some. While that solved my problem short term I look forward to seeing how what you try pans out bc I dont buy jacketed pistol bullets anymore.

[Whiterabbit]

Recently got a ruger bisley in 45lc/45acp. Had DougGuy open up the throats, so that is OK now. As you probably know in this gun the 45 acp headspace on the rim. When I shoot lead in the 45acp, the little shoulder that the case headspace on shaves a little lead which builds up quickly and prevents the following rounds from chambering. Anybody loading for a ruger like this and encountered this problem?
Siamese4570

You know, it took till now, but I can keenly visualize the exact problem. Sounds like a headspace "issue". Of course, zero headspace doesn't sound feasible (or frankly desirable), so the best solution is not readily apparent to me.

Have you considered casting harder bullets to try? I bet if you started using hardball the issue would go away.

You aren't using hard lead now, are you?

[siamese4570]

Nope. Using range scrap. I think it's pretty soft. I tried seat and crimp in separate operations. Seemed to fix the leading problem. Want to try some more just to confirm the problem is fixed. Encountered another problem. The recoil it pulling 5th round (only loading 5). Tried a little more crimp to see if that fixes it. This has been a process. Will keep you posted.
siamese4570

[Whiterabbit]

My two cents:

put somewhere between half a SFRB and a full SFRB of linotype into your MFRB of range lead, and it will be much harder to shave the lead.

Next, pull your expander plug and polish it with some 320-600 grit wet sandpaper. Goal would be to increase neck tension to also help you with bullet pull.

I bet both will also totally fix your issues.

[EDK]

Some info?
I bought S&W 625-2 revolvers, model of 1989, new. They would shave lead and not let lead boolit reloads chamber after 2 or 3 rounds in each chamber. S&W sent out new chamber reamers to service centers to correct the problem. The old time machinists at Smith put a minute radius on the chamber reamers, BUT this wasn't mentioned in the dimensions...just something everyone knew was done. The old guys had retired or whatever and new guys made up the new reamers for the 1989 guns...with a square/90 degree edge. Engineering scratched their ***...er, noses...and finally called a retiree who immediately diagnosed the problem.

On the RUGER single actions, some posters reported on CAREFULLY machining the back end of the 45ACP cylinder so it will accept 45 Auto Rim cartridges. You might want to do some measuring and see how much of the ACP case is not supported.

My NEW GLOCK 41 left a bit of swollen case above the web...once fired would go in only so far in a DILLON case gauge. You could reverse and put it in to about the same point. I cured it with a KKM after market barrel.

A LEE CARBIDE FACTORY CRIMP die is under $20. Opinions differ about its effects on accuracy, but it does help solve the problems associated with brass used in GLOCKS.

[Whiterabbit]

You would not BELIEVE how often problems happen on production lines because someone with 20 years experience retired, and there was no documentation in place with respect to "his way" of doing things that naturally hid or resolved potential issues noone had dreamed of.

Most of the time, access to the retiree or person who moved to another company is not available, leaving the rest of us to fight the fire and reverse engineer the whole issue. The solution is almost always documentation.

And the really sad thing is that documentation is a dying art. prints don't exist anymore, only 3D models. Schematics don't exist anymore, only netlists. And nothing is printed, only stored as a PDF.

[robertbank]

The headspace ledge is quite wide and has no taper or leade at the rear end of the throat. Cast bullets that intrude into the throat can be a problem loaded into the charge hole. Cast bullets that do not intrude can hit that sharp wide ledge and scrape lead, which seems to be the issue in this thread.



This is what I found using my 200 gr LSWC bullets. I found seating the bullets so the mouth of the case just met the start of the olgive prevented the build up of lead. It meant seating the bullets a few thousanths deeper than I would for my 1911. The seemed to allow the 45acp cartridges to seat in the cylinder. Prior to seating the bullets deeper I found every so often, and more often than not the cartridges would not seat flush in the cylinder.

I have the Ruger Lipsey flat top convertible.

Take Care

Bob