357 Cast for deer questions

[Elbow]

Im getting a NEF 357 SB2 single shot rifle from a friend. I have never used the 357 for deer but I intend to with this rifle. Does anyone have suggestions on what is a good cast bullet, maybe help on a decent load, any advice or experience appreciated. Thanks, Craig

[jmort]

I'm using this in my Handi rifle

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=35&products_id=869

[GhostHawk]

I actually very much like the new Lee .360 200 grain gas checked mold.

With the .357 mag it is not hard to reach speeds of 1200 to 1700 fps with good accuracy.

Personally I only shoot paper targets, my load is 4.6 grains of Red Dot under the .358 158 gr round nose tumble lube.
But for most deer hunting the 200 grain would be my #1 choice. Perhaps not quite as accurate, or perhaps I have simply not yet found what it likes.

[NSB]

Just stay with any bullet 158g and up. I've shot over fifty deer with the .357mag handgun and I've never lost a deer with it yet. I've found over the years that any bullet lighter than this doesn't penetrate as well and neither does anything over 180g beyond seventy-five yards. In my .357MAX I can use bullets of 180g - 200g and get decent penetration, but the mag loads are a bit less potent. I'd start with some 2400 powder for where you're going.

[jmort]

For the $$$ the new Lee mold looks like a good place to start.

[chutesnreloads]

My Handi really likes the Lee 358-158RF.You may consider looking in the swapping selling threads....there's been some 360DW brass for sale...your Handi will almost certainly chamber this and the 200 grain boolit mentioned above would be a good choice since you can load it higher than .357mag loads if you seat the boolit long enough to reach the lands.

[Blammer]

the lee 358 158 will work well for you.

I would recommend the NOE 360180 as it has worked well for me in my 357mag for deer.
I like lilgun and buledot for good loads.

[quilbilly]

As mentioned above, the 158's are more than adequate for deer at a terminal velocity of 1000 fps on up in my opinion. The SWC's make quite a "wack" sound when hitting a deer and give good penetration. That new 200 from Lee is an excellent boolit and if you may hunt bear with your weapon in the future, consider it as an all-around good for deer at a terminal velocity of 900 fps (huge penetration).

[Orchard6]

I'll second the Lee 358-158 for deer. My Rossi 92 likes a charge of 17.6 grains of Lil'Gun with this boolit. I've only used it for 2 years but the 4 deer I've taken with it have all dropped in their tracks with high shoulder/spine shots from 30 to 130 yard ranges, so far I'm really impressed with it.

[farmerjim]

I like the RCBS 200 in mine, but it is reamed out to a Max. I have the lee 200 loaded in a 38 sp case loaded to 357 mag tables but have only shot it in a 357 mag pistol so far. ( it is too long to chamber in a 38 sp, and is too long to chamber in a 357 mag with 357 mag brass)

[Djones]

The Noe 360-180 wfngc on top of 14.5 grains of lil gun.

It is on sale this week!

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=35&products_id=2369

[Viper225]

I agree NOE 360-180 with Gas Check, and the new Lee 200 grain is another very good choice. I have the NOE 360-180 5 cavity mold, and may still buy a Lee 200 grain just to play with. The new style Lee 2 Cavity is much improved. This bullet is also available in a 6 cavity mold.
As was said above get some 360 Dan Wesson brass to try. It is between a 357 Magnum, and a 357 Maximum in length. Use Small Rifle Primers.

If you are thinking of getting it rechambered to a 357 Maximum later.
Something to look at. Check the firing pin on your Handi Rifle. My local dealer has a 357 Handi Rifle that says SB2 on the barrel. The action however has the huge Shotgun firing pin indicating it is an SB1. Look at the firing pins on other hi power centerfire Handi Rifles, like a 243, 7-08, etc and you will see a small firing pin. The shotgun version is much bigger, and easy to tell apart. I would skip having an SB1 rechambered to 357 Maximum.
The 360 Dan Wesson with only slightly hotter than 357 Magnum loads should do just fine.

Bob

[Pumpkinheaver]

The only bullet I have used for deer in a .357 carbine is the Lee 158 RNFP. I pushed them with a healthy dose of H-110. Not good for the health of the Missouri deer heard.

[harley45]

I like the NOE 180gr on deer but that is only because it is more accurate in my Marlin than my 158gr mold. I have the MIHEC version of Ray Thompsons 158 gr gas check bullet and my son has taken two deer an 1 boar with it and it does well also and he is running them at about 1000 FPS. On a side note I have a NOE mold for 9MM that casts a 150GR flat nose. Then ELCO I believe it was called and I've been considering trying that on some smaller hogs.

[Lonegun1894]

I used to use the Lee 158gr SWCGC and it worked great on deer and hogs. I have since switched to the Lyman 358156, and the same bullet out of either the Lyman or the Mihec mold works just as well as the Lee did on meat, but seems to be a bit more accurate. Maybe half an inch smaller groups at 100yds or so out of my Rossi 92 and Contender. I don't notice a accuracy difference with my revolvers, but I'm thinking that is a matter of the combination of iron sights and a short sight radius.

[chutesnreloads]

Here we go.....new Lee 200grain PC'd
.360DW brass

seated long where boolit just kissing the rifling then in a few thousanths 2.050 in my Handi
Loading 2400 @ 11.5 grains up to 14.5 ....see where it goes from there
158618

[hornady308]

I have the Handi 357 Mag and use a load of 15gr 2400, 175gr hp bullet from an NOE 359-190, 357 Mag case, COL=1.945, standard pistol primer. I've also had good accuracy with 20.4gr H110 with a small RIFLE primer and strong crimp. I have not shot these over the chrono yet, but I bet they are fast. I recently got the Lee 200gr, but have not had a chance to try them yet.

[glockky]

Here we go.....new Lee 200grain PC'd
.360DW brass

seated long where boolit just kissing the rifling then in a few thousanths 2.050 in my Handi
Loading 2400 @ 11.5 grains up to 14.5 ....see where it goes from there
158618

Is your handi reamed to max?
360DW brass just barely works in my factory chamber. I haven't loaded any of it yet but I didn't figure you would still have to seat the bullet out that far.

[rjathon]

I've had good luck with the 175 Ranch Dog and Lil Gun.

[220]

Another one for the NOE 360-180WFN, has worked well for me in my marlin

[GhostHawk]

Glockky IMO it all depends on exactly how your chamber was reamed.

Only way to be totally sure is to do a chamber cast or a pound cast.

With a Handi Rifle both are pretty straightforward.

I am using the .360dw brass for my best loads, including some of the lee 200 grain. Mine are not set quite that long. All depends on exactly where the ogive kisses the rifling.

I am not pushing mine hard but so far it has been my most accurate rifle.

3 in a one hole smaller than a dime at 50 yards, 2 touching at 100 yards with the third I managed to pull it an inch up and left. Shot at a golf ball at 100 yards they all 3 would have hit. Not quite MOA, not that day. Not guns fault, its doing what it needs to do. Blame is all on this old shooter.

[smoked turkey]

Here is another +1 for the NOE 360-180WFN. I have limited experience with the boolit on whitetail compared to others here, but my experience is that if I do my part the boolit performs well. I usually shoot for the heart/lungs and the deer seem to to about 30 yards and its over. That has been my experience whether I am using my 357 Mag rifle load, 35 Remington, 308 Win, or 7x57 Mauser. My load for my 357 Mag rifle is 6 gr. Herco or in 38 special cases, I use 4.0 gr Herco.

[Blammer]

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Cast%20boolits%20fun/DSCN7697.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/blammer8mm/media/Cast%20boolits%20fun/DSCN7697.jpg.html)
for my levergun
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Cast%20boolits%20fun/DSCN7631.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/blammer8mm/media/Cast%20boolits%20fun/DSCN7631.jpg.html)

[Tailhunter]

Another one for the NOE 360-180WFN, has worked well for me in my marlin

kills deer, dead.

[chutesnreloads]

Is your handi reamed to max?
360DW brass just barely works in my factory chamber. I haven't loaded any of it yet but I didn't figure you would still have to seat the bullet out that far.It is not reamed to max....Don't NEED to seat it out that far but that's where the boolit meets the rifling in MY Handi......BTW,after some load work it seems best groups with 2400 is only at 13.5 grain......Not a whimpy load but will try a different powder next

[Lead Freak]

I actually very much like the new Lee .360 200 grain gas checked mold.

With the .357 mag it is not hard to reach speeds of 1200 to 1700 fps with good accuracy.

Personally I only shoot paper targets, my load is 4.6 grains of Red Dot under the .358 158 gr round nose tumble lube.
But for most deer hunting the 200 grain would be my #1 choice. Perhaps not quite as accurate, or perhaps I have simply not yet found what it likes.

I see a .358 200gn Lee rifle mould, but not a .360. What would be your starting load behind that? Does anyone have any ballistics on this?

[HiVelocity]

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=71_78&products_id=460

HV

[Black Chrome]

I was just looking at this mold on NOE's site. I have a beginner question though. In the options it says drill for probe for an additional $2.50. Is this to make 1 cavity a hollow point? If not then what are they talking about. Thanks.

[Black Chrome]

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Cast%20boolits%20fun/DSCN7697.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/blammer8mm/media/Cast%20boolits%20fun/DSCN7697.jpg.html)
for my levergun
http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/Cast%20boolits%20fun/DSCN7631.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/blammer8mm/media/Cast%20boolits%20fun/DSCN7631.jpg.html)

I really like the look of these HP's. May I ask what mold and the specs on the bullets please and thank you. :)

[tja6435]

Pretty sure they're the NOE 360-180-WFN from a RG mold. The RG molds are the hollow point and hollow base captured pin setup NOE uses

[MT Gianni]

I was just looking at this mold on NOE's site. I have a beginner question though. In the options it says drill for probe for an additional $2.50. Is this to make 1 cavity a hollow point? If not then what are they talking about. Thanks.
No that is for their temperature probe.

[davidheart]

What's the weight of the 180gr boolits with the hollow point? Is it still 180 or is it something closer to ~160-170? How well do y'all thing these would perform in a handgun as opposed to rifle for deer?

Looking for a heavy woods hollow point and I saw this on NOE's website. Now I found this thread! Looks promising...

[Lead Fred]

I like the Elmer Keith 160gr hollow point mould. It seemed to have stopped men for the FBI for 30 years.
Good enough for bambi

163871

[davidheart]

I like the Elmer Keith 160gr hollow point mould. It seemed to have stopped men for the FBI for 30 years.
Good enough for bambi

163871

Wow that's some good expansion. Who makes that mold?

Read earlier in the thread a 180gr boolit at 900fps will be plenty fine for deer (assuming <50 yards?). I have a SP101 2 inch and chrono 158gr loads at 1250fps 10ft from the muzzle. I hit a 2 inch target at 25 yards. Does this mean even my 2 inch SP101 will work for hunting?

[Lonegun1894]

Yes, your SP101 will work as long as you hit where you need to. I know I have used mine for hogs and it worked just fine. Now I had to pass up shots that were out beyond the limit I set for myself, but that happens with any weapon, so no big deal.

[Blammer]

sorry I'm late to the party, :)

the HP's bring it to about 170gr. A bit too much HP if you ask me or maybe I don't have my alloy right. The first picture shows the "dish" or "cup point" and with the expanded bullet in the picture you can't get better than that IMO. :) If I recall it went through 3 1 gallon jugs of water and landed in the 4th. :) The Dish or cup design is really close to 180 still, say 178gr or so.

I can only speculate in the hand gun as I've never shot them in my handgun, but if you get accuracy and velocity in your handgun I don't see how you couldn't drop something within your range and ability.

[Blammer]

as an aside note. I cast up some HP's with a really deep HP, they weighed about 155gr. Loaded them in my 35 whelen, full tilt load, no I don't have any idea what the velocity was.

anyway, there was this ground hog see.... lets just say, I had to get a shovel and pick up the pieces... :)

[44man]

I never fell for the .357 for deer. Nothing wrong though except bullet/boolit choices at the time. People bullets.
A survey done long ago showed a 50% loss on deer with what you bought. It is solved with cast now.
Same as the .41 long ago, poor choices for a boolit. Expansion too fast and loss of penetration.

[TXGunNut]

I'm on the fence here. I've hunted the Nail Ranch here in TX and the guide (Tim?) I hunted with both times had a low opinion of 357 0n hogs, not sure how he felt about them on deer. OTOH I've done quite well with the 35 Rem on deer and hogs. I doubt my guide had much experience much with good lead boolits. There isn't much difference between a stout 357 rifle load and a moderate 35 Rem load.
As we've seen over and over again, it's about boolit placement and boolit design. I've flattened large hogs with a RD 359-190 @ <2000 fps (in a 35 Rem) so I suspect a 180 gr boolit from a 357 rifle at 1800 fps is good for most deer, but I honestly don't know.
Bedtime, backspace key very tired. ;-)

[outdoorfan]

Although I've never hunted hogs, I would probably not hesitate to grab my Rossi 92 loaded up with 190 grainers at 1800 fps. Pretty bad medicine. A water-dropped 50/50 alloy 190 grainer with .28 meplat (MP 358-180-rf) will shoot through 7 1-gallon milk jugs (filled with water), bursting and launching the first 3 jugs off the table. Or, the same bullet at 1150 fps will penetrate 11 jugs, bursting and throwing the first two (although not as violently). Just to clarify, the above testing was with the solid flat-nosed configuration, not the hp. I've ran tests with the hp, as well; and also with the solid bullet at 9 bhn (50/50 alloy).

Interestingly, the 9 bhn fn bullet at 835 fps penetrated 11 jugs.

[Blackwater]

For deer, 4" barreled handguns with many 158 gr. and heavier bullets have killed plenty of deer. However, if the shoulder's not hit, even the 125 gr. HP's will do them in rather well IF ONLY they're placed well. I'm not saying every 125 will do it, but the ones that give decent penetration to the vitals will. That's with Jbullets, but in cast, penetration is less of a problem. A friend of mine shot a number of deer over time with the Lee 150 SWCHP's I gave him. It worked pretty darn well, but he's a fine shot and all bullets hit where they'd do the most good. In .357, they'd almost always exit on a broadside shot. Cast of straight WW's, the nose would expand, then break off and form collateral damage in the organs, but the base would look like a full WC with the nose smushed out a bit when and if they could be recovered.

So I guess you'd have to count me among the ones who are, to a point, ambivalent about bullet wt., PROVIDED you're placing your bullets well on broadside or nearly broadside shots. There's no doubt, of course, that if you typically have to take angling shots on jumped deer, a heavier bullet would be better. So some of it depends on HOW you hunt - stalking vs. hunting from a stand. Hunting from a stand, if you pick the spot well, usually gives you the option of waiting for a broadside or nearly broadside shot, and then, an expanding bullet just behind the shoulder does really well. For jump shooting, not so much. There, a heavier, deeper penetrating bullet would get the nod. There's just no doubt that the heavier bullets penetrate better. The real question is whether you'll benefit more from the penetration or from the expansion, and it CAN go either way.

Based on my experience (limited) and what I've seen in others' kills, All I'd say is that for general all around use, I think I'd go with a 158-170 gr. bullet with as broad a flat on the nose as possible for your gun and it's funtioning (pretty wide open deal with a SS), and drive it as fast as you can and still get really good accuracy. Given that, I wouldn't worry about your results much. The Keith bullet and the 358156 have killed an awful lot of deer VERY effectively for a very long time, but RNFP's and LBT style bullets don't have a single fly on them, either, and some have bigger flats on the nose than those 1st two. I'd worry more about shot placement, and I'd also play with alloy and try to use the softest alloy for deer that would give me good accuracy and little leading, but both of those CAN be affected by lube, so some experimenting in that area might not be a bad idea, too.

Deer just aren't that hard to kill, generally, though strange things can and do happen. We still don't have it all figured out yet, and probably never really will, but we DO know quite a bit, and simply applying all of it as best we can should give you some joy when you get your shot.

[44man]

Cast just works but you still need to get them right.
I can NOT say what to do with a .357 for deer since I only shot chucks with them. I would not be shooting deer with boolits I used back then. Even the .44 mag can be sad with the wrong choice.
The mistakes I have made would fill pages. I have made mistakes with much larger guns too and things never work from imagination or test media. A deer's lungs are not water but mostly air that will compress. Hit bone with the wrong boolit and you eat your rawhide laces.
A deer shot with about anything can survive or die but you must have it in hand at the end. I have killed many, many deer with .22 bullets healed in and 6" of arrows and broad heads healed in the chest. I learned that a heavy arrow with complete penetration killed faster then the new bows with light, fast arrows that stop inside. My first bow kill was with a weak bow and the arrow could be seen going in as she ran off. 200 to 300 yards to recover and a stupid carry to get out. Wrong boolits and 200 yard runs and maybe no blood to follow made me stop stupid.
I don't like to read that "deer are not hard to kill." Most untrue statement anyone can make. I have a respect for the tenacity of the animal so get it right.
I might have found several hundred lost deer in the spring when I look for shrooms. Not to mention when I am hunting.

[ChristopherO]

Deer aren't that terribly hard to kill, with enough boolit and in the right place. That seems to be the stickler, doesn't it? It can also be said, "Deer aren't that hard to wound" too. I try my best to create fatal wounds that leak well.