Over powder wad/card

[peter72]

I'm after peoples opinion on what the benefits of using an over powder card are in muzzleloading rifles.
Does card thickness, and lube make much difference?
Is it to help with even pressure when firing?

[rfd]

a lubed over-powder wad - why?

for shot, a must have.

for ball, well that's primarily patched and no wadding required or needed.

for a smoothbore, some tow on top of the powder and then a ball pressed in, instead of a patched ball, or just a ball on top of powder.

lotsa variations for experimentation.

[barnabus]

I shoot a wad over my patch round ball in my TC Renegade flintlock and found it closed my groups considerably.My twist rate is the 1:48 compromise but i wanted to shoot PRB.

[oldracer]

Depends on what you are shooting as mentioned above. Patched round balls are self explanatory but slug guns such as a Gibbs 45 caliber are another matter. If you check equipment lists from long range (1000 yard) matches then you'll see some use a .030 or .060 thickness wad and some use none. Pedersoli in their instructions for their 45 caliber Gibbs copy say to NOT use a wad so you have to check accuracy on your own. I recently tried the Pedersoli molded bullet both with and without a wad........found no difference at least at 200 yards?

[fouronesix]

I'm after peoples opinion on what the benefits of using an over powder card are in muzzleloading rifles.
Does card thickness, and lube make much difference?
Is it to help with even pressure when firing?

Painfully obvious a wad is required for shot loads :)

For a flat base conical- yes usually an advantage using either a fiber card or felt wad. Maybe some advantage to lubing the wad for keeping fouling soft for loading next shot. I usually have increased accuracy using a dense, 1/8" felt wad, lightly lubed under solid base conical like the T/C Maxiball. I think it helps seal bore and helps protect bullet from gas blow-by in the short time it takes for the base to fully obturate into the grooves.

For Minié- not needed or advised except that a wood or clay base plug is sometimes used to advantage in the Pritchett design.

For patched roundball- maybe some advantage. I don't know about being 18th century historically correct, but most likely 19th century historically correct with some evidence of the use of wasp nest material to protect and seal the patch in patched roundball load. I sometimes see an advantage in using a lightly lubed dense felt wad for patched roundball load.

Common to use lubed wad in cap & ball revolver to keep fouling soft and to help prevent chain fire- some shooters do this, some don't.

Still scratching my head about why the muzzleloader historically correct bar standard is 18th century and not 19th century. :)

[rfd]

... For a flat base conical- yes usually an advantage using either a fiber card or felt wad. ...

Still scratching my head about why the muzzleloader historically correct bar standard is 18th century and not 19th century. :)

yep, yer right about conicals and the need for a wad in rifles/revolvers - i think there it's important, same as why we use wads for bpcr.

imo, history is history. there is no 'bar', it's all good, and each era will find that muzzleloaders have evolved somewhat - pick one (era and firearm) and run with it! :)

in most cases of folks posting about ml's, there's typically no mention of type or ignition system or what it's to be use for.

flintlock trad ml's abound in all of the 18th century (mostly fowlers). in 1807 the caplock was born and that was a significant change, and with westward expansion the short barrelled heavy hawkens took hold on horseback, which is the rifle type mostly kinda sorta replicated by the commercial side lock manufacturers today.

then there's those dang new fangled abomination ml zip guns ... HAH! :D :p :drinks:

[johnson1942]

the wad behind a bullet is really the perfect base of the bullet. i use a 60 thousands thick hard fiber or poly wad in my 45/70s , paperpatched muzzle loaders and my two cowboy revolvers. so this is the purpose of a hard fiber wad behind a lead bullet. it becomes a perfect base for the gasses to bounce off of at the muzzle in equal directions. next it gas seals so no leading on a cast bullet or burning of the paper on a pp bullet. i use no lubes on the pp bullets and in my cowboy handguns i also use no lube on the lead bullets. i never ever have leading in the bores of my guns, with out wads i have. now as to a round, a patched roundball needs no wad behind it if your useing the right patch. i have shot over sized roundballs with out patches and then i used a 60 thousands thick wad behind the ball to prevent leading. to my surprise they were very very accurate in a rifle. you wouldnt want to over charge as they would strip out but they do seem to take a fairly decent charge. ive tried felt and for me they were too much baggage behind the bullet but some get good results. when the weather warms up again a 1/30 twist 45 cal of mine i shoot paperpatch in is going be be tried with a over sized ball and a wad behind it. it will be used for target and small game. i expect good results in it. of course i wouldnt do deer with that set up and go back to the 335 grain pp bullet. have fun

[peter72]

Painfully obvious a wad is required for shot loads :)

Hence my mention of rifle not smoothbore.
I'll try a wad in my hawken and see how that go's.
I've read of some people using leather as an over powder wad. The sealing the bore on ignition idea sounds logical.

[waksupi]

I've not tried it in a rifle, but did experiment with it in smoothbores. I did seem to have more consistent accuracy with the card wad, but not enough to make me use it all the time in competition.

[johnson1942]

if you use leather, make sure it is very firm leather. i tried it for patching material and what i used didnt work for me. i really believe keeping the gasses from getting to any kind of bullet is what is needed. i read once that antelope skin thinned out was used for patching material in the days gone by and worked very well. next time im to the hardware store that sells roundballs around here im going to get some oversized ones and try them in my 45 cal rifle. i punch out my own poly wads from 60 thousands poly material. i was lucky enough to buy the pro loading press wad punch before he stopped makeing them.

[mooman76]

Are you talking about a conical or PRB? All kind of things can be used for wads. Some even throw an extra patch as a over powder wad. Like stated I believe for conicals it helps with the pressure. PRB it helps if you are getting patch burn out but as stated also best to get the proper patch/ball combo so sometimes it is a shortcut to make things easier or if you have a slightly rough bore that is tearing up patches, it may help tighten up groups. Basically it's a try and see thing. Sometimes it helps, sometimes it doesn't.

[smoked turkey]

I seem to get more consistent groups with an over powder wad than without on my muzzleloaders and my BPCR shooting. I use a wad punched from a sheet of gasket making material available at auto supply houses.

[johnson1942]

smoked turkey, i had a neighbor boy years ago who got him self a 45/70 and had me teach him how to load it. i had him use the cork rubber gasket material from the auto store as you do and he would get 1 inch groups at 100 yards with it. the auto store is a good source of wad material.

[bubba.50]

a well-lubed bullet has no need for a wad. yer just addin' unnecessary steps to yer shootin'. I shoot mostly T/C Maxi-balls & Lee R.E.A.L.'s in my guns and have never seen the need for or benefit of usin' a wad of any kind.

[OverMax]

Because you asked:
One of my 54 cal renegade rifles is a dedicated Medium weight Maxi Ball shooter.(430 gr.) Been using T/C lubricated bore button wads over its powder charges for quite a few years. Not because I shouldn't. But because I can. Some fellows would say the practice is unneeded. I say its always good to have a little extra bore to bullet base sealing. Don't know where as doing so gave my rifle any better 100 yard accuracy. But its nice to think doing so did help. When I think back to the days when T/C made their Break-a-Way sabot. I do recall it had a lubricated dual purpose felt dougnut band installed on the sabot base. That little felt ring not only helped keep the sabot from dismantling during its loading but no doubt it also reduced gases ess blow by. That's my explanation and opinion of why the use of over the charge felt bore buttons can be used in certain circumstances in a rifle.

[johnson1942]

i used a well lubed bullet in my 45 long colt years ago and got bad leading with out a wad, but with a wad, none. the powder was real black powder. i agree that the back of a bullet can have too much stuff behind it but a 60 thousands hard wad isnt too much. its an insurance policy that works.

[Maven]

I've not tried it in a rifle, but did experiment with it in smoothbores. I did seem to have more consistent accuracy with the card wad, but not enough to make me use it all the time in competition.

My experience as well, Ric.

[SirMike1983]

I use a 1/8" overpowder card plug in both my rifles and muskets. It improved accuracy in both, especially the muskets. It is also helpful to those who go heavy on liquid patch lube by preventing the excess lube from over wetting the main charge in the bore. Some people really love to wet the patch, though it is not usually needed. However, if you're one of the people who like a really wet patch, the overpowder plug may help keep the powder dry.

[scattershot]

I used a Lubed Wonder Wad in my rifles, and it added lube and improved accuracy. Sometimes I rammed a lubed patch down on the charge before loading the patched ball, for the same effect.

Apparently, others don't feel this is necessary,,or have had different results, but it worked for me.
I didn't use the extra wad hunting, however.

[barnabus]

Well after much work I finally found a load for my Renegade Flintlock. Took some work but she likes a Speer .495 PRB with a .010 OX Yoke patch lubed lightly with Bore Butter over 80 grains 3F Goex.This is 4 shots at 50 yards. Im pleased!

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b253/billstallings/renegade.jpg (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/billstallings/media/renegade.jpg.html)
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b253/billstallings/Mobile%20Uploads/image.png (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/billstallings/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image.png.html)

[Squeeze]

then there's those dang new fangled abomination ml zip guns ... HAH! :grin: :razz: :drinks:
Or those guys who get on a computer and spew about the "correctness" of their blunderbuss. HAHA
Mine spits a 300 grn at over 3000 fps with 5000 foot pounds of energy. A little north of 40k psi, and no wad needed. I usually tone that down for deer, unless far shots are needed.

[rfd]

Or those guys who get on a computer and spew about the "correctness" of their blunderbuss. HAHA
Mine spits a 300 grn at over 3000 fps with 5000 foot pounds of energy. A little north of 40k psi, and no wad needed. I usually tone that down for deer, unless far shots are needed.

or folks who seem to need to turn a muzzleloader into a rocket launcher. :bigsmyl2:

it's all good, do whatever makes ya happiest. [smilie=p:

[54bore]

a well-lubed bullet has no need for a wad. yer just addin' unnecessary steps to yer shootin'. I shoot mostly T/C Maxi-balls & Lee R.E.A.L.'s in my guns and have never seen the need for or benefit of usin' a wad of any kind.


I agree bubba, i have some ox yoke wonder wads for both my .54 Cals and .58, so far i cant tell any difference when i use them, i have tried them with Maxi balls, Minie balls, and Lee R.E.A.L but see no difference in my groups, i wont be buying anymore of them