CA Condor Study

[TXGunNut]

My brother wants to build a dedicated hog rifle but one of his parameters is lead free bullets as he has read an article about the condor study in CA. I told him the study I've heard about has been discredited based on links I saw here. He's something of a scientist and an environmentalist so I will need to have cites to support my position.
Haven't found the links that helped me form my opinion; a little help, please?

[M-Tecs]

http://www.huntfortruth.org/5-year-lead-ban-fails-to-reduce-blood-lead-levels-in-california-condors/

http://www.huntfortruth.org/wildlife-and-species/california-condor/

[trapper9260]

I know someone down the road from me,told me about they did a study on Eagles and lead, the demo he watch in live that the one that gave the demo ,had some meat without lead in it and lead in it . he said what he seen and show that the Eagle did not touch the part of the meat that had some lead or discard it from the meat.So when they say birds will swallow the lead did not stand up to what is really going on and I know it has nothing to do about the Condor. But if they eat there food the same way. It will kill what they try to make up they want us to think. Birds are alot smarter then the ones that write this stuff up.

[birddog]

Can't talk for the birds but I will tell you I can thhrow a hand full of gravel in the horse feed and when he's finished there is a hand full of gravel in the feed pan. I've watched them pick their way around sand burs in the hay and not have a single one stuck in their mouth or lips. I have a hard time believing that anything will eat or swallow foreign objects.
Charlie

[M-Tecs]

Birds have to eat stones for their digestion. That is the function of the gizzard.

[quilbilly]

From what I read it was never positively determined that it was lead that killed the condors but the birds they autopsied were road killed. One thing about condors is that they live a very long time and they are often dependent on wounded deer by hunters in California so lead will be in their system after glutinously they eat carcasses small bones and all. I used to hunt next to the condor refuge and nesting area in the cliffs above Ojai, California (a fine, backpack-in deer hunting area) so saw them all the time even when there were fewer than 2 dozen left of the majestic bird.
I think cars are more of a threat than lead to the condors since they feast on road kills and are not exactly fast at taking off. This is all about hysteria over lead by anti-hunters masquerading as greens.

[montana_charlie]

Birds have to eat stones for their digestion. That is the function of the gizzard.
True primarily for those that eat seeds and whole grains.
If you feed grain to your chickens, you have to provide grit.
If you feed prepared feed (pellets or crumbles) the grit can be omitted.

I don't know how necessary it is for meat eaters to get grit for the gizzard.

Having watched a heron eating fish, it didn't seem like those trout were staying in the gizzard for processing.

[M-Tecs]

I don't know how necessary it is for meat eaters to get grit for the gizzard.


Not for breaking the food down but they still eat grit for fat removal.

http://www.featheredphotography.com/blog/2012/11/05/american-kestrel-eating-grit/

"Hawks, falcons and eagles do not eat grit or small stones to digest their food like most other birds do. The flesh they consume is turned to liquid in the crop by strong acids and indigestible materials (teeth, fur, feathers etc) are regurgitated as pellets. So grit is not needed by these birds as a digestive aid.
But these raptors still consume stones and there’s a very good reason why. The diet of these birds (plump rodents, grasshoppers etc) is very fatty and eventually a thick layer of greasy fat builds up in the lining of the crop, which becomes a hindrance to the proper functioning of that organ. So they swallow small stones, which scour out the greasy lining of the crop and eventually they will be cast out, just like pellets. And when they are, they’re covered in heavy grease.

Mark goes on to say that old-time falconers used to gently force small stones (called “rangle”) into their falconry birds until their crops were about half full. The indigestible stones were later cast out, covered with a heavy layer of grease (called “gleam”). Modern falconers have mostly abandoned this practice and focus on “whole body nutrition”, where the bird is allowed to eat food with lots of casting material (bones, feathers, etc) which, when cast out, carries with it much of the fat from within the crop. Falconers also occasionally provide their captive birds with small, smooth, round stones".

[W.R.Buchanan]

This was all perpetrated by the Audubon Society. They are the ones responsible for hunting regulations in CA. The head of the Bird Watchers Society is also the head of Fish and Wildlife now appointed by Brown.

These people are well organized and get virtually everything they put forth in the CA Legislature.

But what you really need to know is the fact that it is coming to your state soon. There are already movements to ban lead ammo in MN, CO, WI and NY because the lead is killing the Bald Eagles!

All this was backed up by a slowmo video of a bullet disintegrating inside a Jello block. Never mind that it was a Varmint bullet and since the people behind all this have no understanding of guns, bullets or anything else for that matter, it doesn't matter as all they have to do is convince the base which they have trained to show up at Representatives Offices and threaten the hell out of them.

The Condor thing was based on this evidence and was not properly disputed. The proposed sequence of events that had to occur in order for this to be feasible was so flawed it defies logic. But they convinced enough people and that's all it took to be come law. Add to that,,, No Condor has ever died of Lead Poisoning? And you case easily see the only reason for the ban was to make it more difficult to hunt.

This is very effective for them and so far it has been working so well that their membership is expanding daily. Add in the Hollywood Guilt Factor, PETA the ASPCA and others and you have a large block of voters that politicians are not willing to dismiss. You also have well known spokesmen on TV pushing the agenda forward and they actually show up,,,, unlike the people on our side!

We as shooters don't have these spokespeople. WE have the NRA, SCI, DSC and the Left is very good at vilifying these groups to gain power. Just look at how they demonize the NRA. I get a kick out of it everytime I hear them because the NRA was originally founded to gather weapons to arm Blacks in the South after the Civil War so that they could protect themselves against the KKK and others. This never seems to get brought up.

One last point. If you think these people are nuts you are right,,, however if you think they are going away you are stupid. They are dedicated and they are coming to your state and they are looking to take your Hunting and Gun Rights away,,, just so they can feel good. They never know what they are talking about, and will spout "statistics" to argue against you, but they aren't trying to impress you,,, They are trying to impress the other stupid people out there so they can gain control and it looks like they are being pretty successful !

There are plenty of stupid people out there. How do you think Obama got elected? Also what do you think he's going to do after being Pres? Just bet he'll be the biggest mouthpiece for these left wing causes the world has ever seen.

Go ahead tell me I'm wrong?

Randy

[Duckiller]

Condors are scavengers. Their gizzards contain all sorts of trash. Some of the lead they eat is from boolit, some is natural occurring lead. The brilliant scientists have not analysed the lead to see where it came from. The whole world knows that lead is only found it boolits. So much for my respect for people that live off looking at condors. As scavengers they will anything dead , like whale or sea lions. Instead of letting them eat these dead animals California tows them out to sea and blows them up. Can;t have dead animals stinking up Ms Streisand's beach. TxGunNut do you have condors in TX? Why is your brother worried about lead free bullets? Barnes, Hornady and others make lead free bullets. These all shoot reasonably well out of most guns. They are not cheap nor are they available in all calibers. Finding ammo may be a problem if he didn't take enough handloads with him on a hunt. California would not have a problem if hunters would bury entrails to a reasonable depth or take them out of the field. To the best of my knowledge lead free and jacketed bullets shoot about the same.

[gwpercle]

You just need a common sense link for him , unfortunately there isn't one. A like minded CA, environmental, condor hugging scientist isn't about to reason the truth out, he's going to run with the environmental pack. Does he live in a state with condors ?
Here in Louisiana we have a great population of vultures, they eat everything , the leftovers from all the deer and hogs shot in the state, most killed with bullets containing lead and guess what....none of them are dying, except the ones hit by cars...that's the biggest danger to them.
Gary

[montana_charlie]

If condors in California are dying from heavy metal poisoning, it might be mercury ... from the fish.

[Uncle Jimbo]

My brother wants to build a dedicated hog rifle but one of his parameters is lead free bullets as he has read an article about the condor study in CA. I told him the study I've heard about has been discredited based on links I saw here. He's something of a scientist and an environmentalist so I will need to have cites to support my position.
Haven't found the links that helped me form my opinion; a little help, please?


This is not a smart *** post, but why not just let him build the rifle and shoot lead free bullets. It might save a lot of argument. And I have meet some of these people and no matter how many facts you present to them, they won't believe you. Sometimes the fight isn't worth it.

just my 2¢

[popper]

It's about money and agenda, nothing real about it. Most Condors die from being fed trash by the parents, choking, not poisoned. They are just buzzards anyway, plenty of them here.

[44man]

It is not about lead, it is back door gun control. I have many hundreds of kills and NEVER found a boolit in any. They are deep in the ground that I can't even dig up.
We have thousands of buzzards here and I never, ever found a dead one. It is a liberal hoax and lie, plain and simple. They can prove nothing with facts. Global warming is your car or wood stove but one volcano can ruin the earth so why are they legal? kali needs the big one to free the country from stupid.

[Markbo]

I see dead buzzards all the time. Right on the side of the road where they got hit. And no we dont have condors in Texas.

[popper]

no we dont have condors in Texas. Yes we do, they are buzzards/vultures (turkey). Ca Condors are very small population of a specific offshoot of the buzzard family (supposedly) only found in a small region at the Ca border. Only real reason to keep then from extinction is $$$. No more loss to the environment or us than the DODO bird.

[Markbo]

Correct, they are vultures. They are not Condors. Condors are a sub species of Vulture living only in CA in the U.S. though there are South American sub species as well.

[TXGunNut]

Where he and I hunt it's generally turkey vultures, caracara, coyotes and other hogs that eat carrion. I've been loading his hunting ammo for over 20 years but I'm not buying into this nonsense to provide him with a lead-free bullet. He's also leaning towards a .308 and I don't have dies or brass for this cartridge, let alone a rifle for testing loads. I load J-words for his 30-06 but a 308 will be new territory for me, as will the AR10 platform.
Thanks, guys. I'll pass along the info.

[Markbo]

.Just FYI .308 is easy to load for, as are AR 10s

[44man]

It still comes down to bureaucrats that know nothing at all except how their butt feels. Notice how demoncrat practices have ruined the state. Fires from poor forest practices. Rich building where it is not safe so tax payers are on the hook.
The worst thing ever is to buy anything to see it is not safe in Kalfornia. I am a full length of the country away. Why do I need your regulations.
I understand about you fellas trapped but you can move. Kally has lost more business then any state. Pack up and move to America.

[TXGunNut]

.Just FYI .308 is easy to load for, as are AR 10s


Understood, just not ready to take on any new projects....OK, real reason? Because I'll probably buy one too, just so I can work up a load for him. New cartridge, new dies, new brass, maybe even a few new powders. Oh yeah, a rifle, scope and mags too. And I can assure you I need another rifle like a need a hole in my head, lol.
Gee, wonder what happened to that nice 30-30 I gave him awhile back?:kidding:

[Rufus Krile]

TX...It's been awhile but... 30gr of H335 behind a gc'd 200gr Lee RN was fun to shoot and would cycle the action of my HK91. And shoot into 4" @ 200yds if I did my part.

[popper]

And those leverguns will get lonesome sitting in the safe -- mine does. 41 gr H4895 @ 2400 fps from a carbine, 20 rnd mag.

[10x]

Just for information, between 1923 and 1973 an average of 20 million tonnes of lead came out of the tailpipes of automobiles in the U.S.A. Over 50 years that is 1 billion tonnes of tetra ethyl lead - lead that is biologically active and gets soaked up immediately by living organisms.
There is NOT ONE STUDY on lead poisoning in wildlife that accounts for this lead in the environment. Tetra ethyl lead does not break down but stays active and spreads up through the food chain very quickly, the lead being concentrated in the top hunters and scavengers of the food chain. Compared to the amount of tetra ethyl lead put into the environment - and still going in from gasoline in some exempted catagories (aviation and marine) the solid metal from Bullets is a long way behind.
There were up to 3 grams of lead per gallon of regular gasoline. This has been replaced by modern anti knock additives that science has no inkling of what will happen in the food chain.

[Markbo]

Now dont confuse the.issues with facts.... that just muddies up... errr.. leads up the water!!

[Viper225]

I am surprised the politicians from the Granola State have not put a ban on cars. They are the real killer of Buzzards. I forgot saving Buzzards is not the real agenda here.

Other than shotgun pellets, I almost never have a lead projectile stay in an animal I shoot.

Quillbilly is 100% correct, it is not about saving Buzzards, it's about messing with gun rights any way they can.

Bob R

[crash87]

Wow, quite a debate, I would like to go on record as stating that, I love Condor!! Not quite as tasty as Eagle, but...............

[Duckiller]

CA Condors a native to the SW USA. That includes Arizona, New Mexico Nevada, Utah and California. Only Ca politicians pass stupid laws to protect birds that can't protect themselves.

[TXGunNut]

One article I read about the condor opined that the bird was about to be a victim of evolution; it simply isn't a good fit for today's conditions. Not sure I understood all I read in that article but I know evolution is a slow process, condors could outlast us...if we'd quit running over them.

[BAGTIC]

I would not expect to find the truth about the issue on any internet forum, pro or con.

[BAGTIC]

As a native California ex-patriot I would have liked California better if it had a thousand times more condors and a thousand times fewer people. California has become a paradise lost and it wasn't the condors that caused it.

[quilbilly]

As a native California ex-patriot I would have liked California better if it had a thousand times more condors and a thousand times fewer people. California has become a paradise lost and it wasn't the condors that caused it. You have it right. When I grew up in S. Cal., it was a great place but until last week I have said for 30 years the best view of california is in your rear view mirror. Then I found out a week ago that Lake Sherwood has been refilled. I grew to love bass fishing in that lake. Maybe one more trip might happen to relive those very old memories then it will be back to somewhere else again.