What's up with copper plate pricing vs. scrap?

[alha]

I am in the market for some 1/8" plate copper that I need in 5/8" strips to used as spacers for a copper coil. I know that pretty much all commodities are way down in the last year or so, including copper. I just checked locally, and #1 bright copper is at $1.70 or so a lb. Knowing that, I went to my local metal supplier (Discount Steel) and saw that they had what I was looking for available. They couldn't cut it that narrow, but I can make strips out of it, so they'd sell me 2" wide by 48" long. It is 3/16", so slightly thicker than I need, but they had it in stock. I was looking for 2, the quote lists them as about 11lbs. And the price for 2? $154, or $77 each! So, that works out to be a low low price of $14/lb! or over 7 TIMES the price of the highest quality scrap! I went to an online metal dealer, and it worked out to be a little better, but still was about $13/lb. What the heck is going on with this? There seems to be a crazy disconnect. I might expect 2 or even 3 times the cleanest scrap price, but 6-7 times? Am I off base here? It seems egregious, especially since the price of most metal has dropped so drastically recently. Or, am I just looking in the wrong place for it?

[Dave C.]

You are not buying scrap.
You are buying finished goods.

[Sweetpea]

Agreed.

You should price out some copper rain gutters!

[alha]

Yes, finished goods, I agree, but the cost of materials vs the finished price I feel is Way out of line. Not that I can do anything about it, other than keep trying to find a better source. Possibly drops, I guess, but I feel that this is gouging at it's finest. The value add isn't justified in the price. So if I would have been looking at this last year (2014?), the same 2 small pieces would have been $300? For 11lbs of copper? Wow. Again, maybe it's just me, but that isn't justifiable. /rant off

[labradigger1]

Try sourcing local roofing contractors, they oftentimes have 20 ounce copper left over from copper roofs.

[Cap'n Morgan]

Just for the heck of it I checked the price of brass at a local scrap yard, and the scrap price was roughly half the price of new round bar.

[alha]

And this I feel is more than fair, I'd even pay up to 3 times the scrap price, but 7 times? Not even close to reasonable. I have contacted one company that does copper gutters, and unfortunately I found out that the gauge used for gutters is too light for my application, otherwise that would have probably have worked out well for me, he was happy to help me out if he could. I'll just keep my eyes open, I'm not in a time crunch to get it done, so I have this in my favor.

[Sasquatch-1]

Remember that copper had to make a trip by truck, train or both to a harbor port. Then by boat to China. Refined in China and sent back in either finished form or as bulk ingots by ship again. Trained and trucked again to the finish mill if in bulk. Milled in some manner to the finished straps that you are looking for. Put on another truck and sent to a distribution center and then trucked to the final retailer. You have to pay for the people at the scrap yard, the transportation people, the longshoremen, mariners and factory workers. Along with all the cost of shipping and refining.

It is just like the cost of primers or brass. Why does something you may get a dollar a pound for as scrap get, (primers) $3.00 a 100 in usable form Brass $30.00 to 50.00, or more, a 100 or less.

It's the cost of doing business.

[alha]

What you've said is currently true (it being more cost effective to process it in china), which I find kind of amazing when you think about it. Taking heavy materials like scrap copper, and then transporting it half way across the world, processing it, then sending it back again, often in bulk form, is less expensive than processing it here, says something sad about our current situation here in the US. And what I am looking to buy is just one step past the ingot stage, my guess is that it was an ingot that was rolled out to a plate. Nothing special or highly processed about it, it's the basic raw material for the next step of making products. Today it's just a flat plate of copper. Primers are highly processed, and have been thru a highly value added process - complex manufacturing, adding explosive ingredients, paying what must be massive liability insurance, etc. I can see how that humble piece of copper can get a significant value add. I have a harder time seeing it in my flat piece of copper, because as people who promote recycling say frequently, the biggest cost of the virgin product is getting it from the ore to the ingot, once it's been made, the cost of remaking it is significantly less. I know we're kind of going around in circles here, and I don't want to be seen as beating a dead horse, because it's pretty much me just venting a little. I've heard what you guys have said, and it's obvious that there is nothing I can do about it other than to be smart in my purchases.

[LuckyDog]

As a business owner tells me time and again...

You charge what the market will bear.

If enough people refuse to pay that amount, the price will come down. (Deflation) But sellers will be very reluctant to sell at a lose.

[bedbugbilly]

Which is more expensive? A brand new manufactured car . . . or a scrapped out car that's been in an accident?

You are looking at a new finished product that has bone through a manufacturing process, then to a wholesaler/distributor, then to a retail seller to be sold to the consumer . . . there are mark-ups all the way along as they are in business to make a profit on a manufactured item. If you buy copper at a scrap yard . . . that's what you are buying . . scrap. It's been used and recycled to the scrap yard.

[mold maker]

By your logic you should buy a brand new perfect weapon for 2X it's scrap value.
Dream on.
You don't always get what you think you pay for, but you will always pay for what you get.

[alha]

Apples & Oranges to me, because all the examples are highly processed and/or precision/complex products, this is a basic commodity with minimal processing (with a 7x upcharge), but I get the gist of the comments I've been receiving. I'll bow out of this one now, and thanks for the replies guys and putting up with my venting.


You don't always get what you think you pay for, but you will always pay for what you get. True, very true. This is why my hunt continues... ;-)

[WILCO]

You are looking at a new finished product that has bone through a manufacturing process, then to a wholesaler/distributor, then to a retail seller to be sold to the consumer . . . there are mark-ups all the way along as they are in business to make a profit on a manufactured item. If you buy copper at a scrap yard . . . that's what you are buying . . scrap. It's been used and recycled to the scrap yard.

Life would be easier if every consumer understood economics.

[btroj]

This is a manufactured product vs scrap. He said it goes thru minimal processing. How does he know what processing it went thru? Met was made to meet certain specifications. It was handled by many people and much energy was used to process the copper sheet.

When you buy scrap you get what you get. When you buy a finished good you get what you paid for. You also asked a business to cut a product to your desired dimensions, that costs money. Those people don't work for free and the equipment they use isn't free either.

I pay a premium to buy steel stock for turning in 3 foot chunks because I don't care to deal with a 12 footer. I'm not being screwed, I'm making a decision.

[LuckyDog]

... I'll bow out of this one now, and thanks for the replies guys and putting up with my venting. ...


Ain't it grand how we all put up with each other?

Gotta luv it here.

[alha]

Ain't it grand how we all put up with each other?

Gotta luv it here. Yup! :D

[dtknowles]

Lets say the sheet was made from scrap. Picker takes scrap to the yard, get dollars. Yard sells scrap to smelter for dollars +, Smelter makes ingot and sells to rolling mill for dollars ++, Rolling mill rolls into sheet and sells to wholesaler for dollars+++, wholesaler sells sheet to retailer for dollars++++, Retailer sells sheet to consumer for dollars+++++. Each of those plus signs could be a times 2 and probably never less than times 1.5, they all add expenses plus profit. A dollars worth of scrap makes $20 to $30 worth of sheet. My math is crude, I could see it being $77.

Tim

[ddixie884]

Prices of scrap were higher a while back. Maybe the lower prices haven't made it through the supply line, yet. If a vender bought at a high point, he may be tied to a price from a higher time. If he has paid taxes and interest and must now pay labor to produce the finished product you desire, he may see that as a break point for your desired commodity. Or, maybe I'm wrong and he is trying to get over on you.

[hiram1]

next time let me know you need it and i will help you out

[alha]

next time let me know you need it and i will help you out
Thank you, that is very kind of you.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

As a business owner tells me time and again...

You charge what the market will bear.

If enough people refuse to pay that amount, the price will come down. (Deflation) But sellers will be very reluctant to sell at a lose.

It's more like "You can't charge what the market won't bear". On one level the selling price of sheet copper includes the cost of transport, administration, taxes, labour and a small slice of the machinery used to process the stuff. On another level there isn't enough of a profit margin in that price, to let someone else step in and capture the market with a lower but viable price.

If someone tries to sell 2x4 timber or even standard plumbing pipe at a really desirable profit, items available from a host of sources, he has painted a target on his back. It might be even more so with 6-32 screws, of which you can buy thousands by mail. It is a bit less clear with something like 3/16in. copper plate, which might be a near-monopoly, and sells in far smaller quantities than the above examples. It costs just as much to transport, per pound, and demands just as expensive machinery. But my guess is that there is no exploitable gap between cost and retail.

[alha]

That sounds like a reasonable explanation, and the last few sentences summarize the situation pretty accurately I believe.

[Jon]

I think that the supply lines are still flushing out at the higher prices. Prices always go up quickly, but take a long time to come down.

[bangerjim]

We mine Cu here in AZ......TONS of it....yet it is expensive to buy. I can see tons of plated-out electrodes coming down the highway from the mines to the smelters. Scrap price you get paid is pretty low, but try to buy some and it is $6.00+/#. But that is FINISHED plate/rod/sheet, not range scrap jackets!!!! Big difference.

Last time I bought some 4x4x1/8" plates they were $5/pound. Clean, bright product.

Do not compare what you are paid for scrap to what you will pay for finished materials!

banger

[jonp]

All this talk of copper prices reminds me of a roof I replaced for a lady in AZ when I was in college. She needed a roof replaced and offered to let our University Chapter of The Wildlife Society have it if we did the work and she also bought the new shingles. IE: all the stuff was ours. Her roof was solid copper. Sheets of it and it also used copper nails. First one I'd ever seen like it. Several pick-ups of copper roofing, nails, flashing, gutters everything. OY!!!

[bangerjim]

Many government buildings are copper roofs. A lot of state capitol domes are copper. And they are now starting to use it in commercial architectural designs again due to the beautiful green it turns. And it is almost a "forever" roof!

How about a pure TIN roof! I remember when I was a kid the old government fish hatchery outside of town was torn down and the roof was real solid TIN "sheet metal". Not that hot-dipped Zn plated steel stuff we have today. But back then (the Dark Ages!) Sn was not worth what it is today. There was probably a quarter ton of the stuff hauled away to the scrap yard. I managed to get some to cast tin soldiers with!

banger

[jonp]

Many do and the dome on our state capitol is gold leaf but you ever heard of someone that just gave it away to git rid of that "$**&$%^#" roof?

[hiram1]

i have a lot of .010 cu in sheet up to 16 in.we just scrap it so if some one needs a little of it let me know

[bangerjim]

Living here in the Silicon Desert and with all the semiconductor industries, I see rolls of copper foil at the junk yards. Nice stuff. I have gathered up different sizes and thicknesses of it. Never know when one may need some!!!!

I remember back when I was a young kid they replaced the gold foil on the Iowa State House dome. The entire thing used only a small amount of 24k gold. I have many books of real 24k gold leaf I use in antique restorations and it IS very thin! Very tricky to use. But fun.

bangerjim

[Ballistics in Scotland]

We mine Cu here in AZ......TONS of it....yet it is expensive to buy.

Most of a house is sand, clay, lime and gravel, but just try having one built for a reasonable selling minus buying profit on those.

[bangerjim]

Most of a house is sand, clay, lime and gravel, but just try having one built for a reasonable selling minus buying profit on those.

You go it. Most people do not stop & think of the hundreds of pounds of Cu pipe & wire that are in the average home! The economy in several mining towns around AZ is directly tied to the housing and construction market health....strictly because of Cu prices. Many hundreds of good jobs are in there.

[dtknowles]

Most of a house is sand, clay, lime and gravel, but just try having one built for a reasonable selling minus buying profit on those.

I accept your point but the contents of a house vary by design. You ever heard of a log home. They were very popular in Maine when I was growing up both the traditional and modular log homes. Down south here we have houses on stilts because of storm flooding and they are also almost all wood with metal roofs. If you count gypsum as clay or lime they have some if they have drywall interiors but other interiors are common.

Tim

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The economics are the same with logs. The purchase price of logs, and the profit your builder takes on them, is greatly inflated by a host of legitimate production costs and overheads. This also applies to 3/16in. copper plate, except that many of the cost of producing an item in very limited demand are just as great as for one that every builder uses every day. The customer always pays those (plus profit), and it will be a smaller number of customers, and capital tied up for longer waiting for them to turn up.