1894 44 mag. cast bullet

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I got a new project going on. I bought a Marlin 1894 in 44 magnum. I need a good cast bullet for deer hunting. The bullets I cast for my 44 mag pistols are SWC's sized to .431" but their groove dims are .429" so the lube/sizer die is good for them. However,I slugged the Marlin's bore and it is a groove dia. of .431",pretty normal for the rifle 44 mags as they are different then the pistol specs. I've looked at NOE's and Accurate's website and the moulds for say a RNFP of like 265 grains cast bullets at .432". Now I plan to use a gas check but sizing bullets to .002" over groove diameter looks like it might be a problem. I heard the 44 mag in the rifle is hard to get good accuracy out of unless everything comes together.I want accuracy with minimal or no leading. Anybody have any suggestions? I might add that it is a new Marlin ( Remlin) with the ballard rifling.

[Tatume]

You're probably right to use a mold dedicated to the rifle. Before you buy the mold, you should make a "pound cast" of your chamber. Abundant instructions may be found here, so I won't repeat them. Then plan on using bullets that are the largest diameter your chamber will accept, or only a little less. Remember to take into account the thickness of your case necks with bullets seated.

Also be careful about overall length, as they have to feed through the mechanism. You may want to make up a couple of dummy rounds before you order the mold, to check length and diameter in your gun.

[Ricochet]

I found with my old Ruger Super Blackhawk that .433" boolits made loaded cartridges that were very tight fitting and sometimes hard to get in the chambers. Didn't notice that with the 1894, but if you have a minimum chamber you could have issues. The bigger problem with my 1894 is that it's fussy about OAL and nose shape. The good old Lyman #429421 seated to the crimping groove jams when the elevator tries to lift it up to chamber. #429244HP and Lee 429-255-SWC (which has a short truncated cone nose like the current TL429-240-SWC) feed just fine.

[Bjornb]

You should read this article: http://castpics.net/subsite2/ByCaliber/Cast%20in%20the%20.44%20Magnum%20Rifle.pdf

Written by Beagle, one of the first members of this forum, it describes how he and Felix collaborated on several loads for the 44 Magnum rifle, and how they arrived at the perfect twist solution for a rifle in this caliber. Very informative and not a long read.

An issue with the Marlin lever guns in 44 Mag is the factory twist rate; 1:38. Many shooters have problems getting good accuracy with the heavier cast bullets.

[shoot-n-lead]

This is just my experience, but mine shoots .430 bullets pretty well. Matter of fact I was shooting it at the range today, it was shooting spot-on( hunting spot-on) with a variety of different cast bullets sized .430. But, a lot of folks say their's requires larger bullets. While mine will shoot them well enough for hunting...if I want to get the best accuracy the gun is capable of...it requires jacketed bullets.

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You should read this article: http://castpics.net/subsite2/ByCaliber/Cast%20in%20the%20.44%20Magnum%20Rifle.pdf

Written by Beagle, one of the first members of this forum, it describes how he and Felix collaborated on several loads for the 44 Magnum rifle, and how they arrived at the perfect twist solution for a rifle in this caliber. Very informative and not a long read.

An issue with the Marlin lever guns in 44 Mag is the factory twist rate; 1:38. Many shooters have problems getting good accuracy with the heavier cast bullets.

Thanks for the link. That was interesting.

[edler7]

NOE has a molds section titled Ranch Dog. RD was a forum member who developed boolits for the lever action 44, with good results. They are definitely worth considering.

I don't know if search will turn up any old Ranch Dog threads, but it would be worth a try.

[Thumbcocker]

avoid heavy boolits and they can surprise you.

[paul edward]

Results with cast in my .44 Magnum 1894 Marlin (microgroove) were disappointing. With 225 grain gas check cast in an RCBS mold and sized 430, accuracy was very poor and the load was too long to function through the action if crimped in the crimp groove. This load works fine in my Ruger SBH. Plain base 214 grain boolits from a Lee mold and sized .430 will function through the action, but accuracy is poor. This load also works fine in my SBH. After a while I gave up on cast through the Marlin and went back to expensive factory jacketed bullets which work well. All of this was before I found this list. Now I need to slug the barrel and go from there. It is annoying that my cast loads for the SBH won't give decent accuracy in the Marlin carbine.

[wv109323]

I have a Marlin 1894 with the MG barrel. I have got two bullets to shoot well and two bullets with terrible accuracy.
The accurate bullets are a Hornady jacketed bullet and a commercial cast 240 gn. SWC sized to .429. Groups with each is about 1/2 to 3/4" at 50 yards.
The two bullets I have not been able to shoot well are a Lee 240 SWC and a Lee 200 gr. SWC. Sized at .430 these bullets keyhole and will not group on a 8 1/2 X 11" paper at 50 yards.
Apparently, the difference between my cast and the commercial cast is the alloy hardness. The commercial must be hard enough to grip the rifling where my softer cast are not.
When I get around to it, I am going to powder coat my bullets to see if the increase in diameter will solve the problem. I have had more pressing issues to pursue and this project is on the back burner.

[Static line]

You're probably right to use a mold dedicated to the rifle. Before you buy the mold, you should make a "pound cast" of your chamber. Abundant instructions may be found here, so I won't repeat them. Then plan on using bullets that are the largest diameter your chamber will accept, or only a little less. Remember to take into account the thickness of your case necks with bullets seated.

Also be careful about overall length, as they have to feed through the mechanism. You may want to make up a couple of dummy rounds before you order the mold, to check length and diameter in your gun.

I did the search on the pound cast and read it through and looked at the pictures and I've got to tell ya,even though you bring up good points of why this should be done,in my hands,it would be a disaster.And on a rifle that a bullet hasn't been through yet excepted for the manufacture's test,and with my shakes,oh boy,that gives me the hee bee gee bees.I understand that the Marlins have a generous chamber and throat so at least I have that going for me.I have made a dummy round usung one of Crazy Deery Old Coot's 465 gr.with wide meplate cast bullets for my 1895 Marlin GG and it fed and cycled like butter.I am hoping this little 1894 will also be generous.I hate the thought of shooting the " J" bullet to obtain mediocer results.The largest dia. factory" J" bullet I know of is the Hornady 240 gr.XTP of .430" dia.I used to shoot them out of my 629 Classic berfore I found the magic of a cast bullet.Same discovery with my Marlin GG 45-70,it is an honest 2 inch/100 yard gun with Hornady 350 gr. RNFP bullet and a pretty good 1-1/2" or better gun with my home brew 350 grain Ranch Dog bullets sized .002" over.

[44man]

It is the twist rate. It is plain wrong for anything but a RB so use a very light boolit that can get to spin. I sold my Marlin after too much frustration.
Marlin made the .444 with a 1 in 38" and so many complained they changed to 1 in 20" for it. I called Marlin and was sent the Greenhill formula that does not work. I wanted a .444 barrel installed chambered for the .44 but they asked if it was still under warranty, only 2 years so I was out of luck.
If a .444 can't work, why keep a .44 the same?

[Char-Gar]

The Marlin 94 in 44 Magnum is a problem for some folks and a dream come true for others. Some claim good success with cast bullets and others that it is all but impossible to get one to shoot case bullets well.

I have such a rifle and am well pleased with the accuracy. I use a now discontinued RCBS 225 grain GC bullet sized .432 over 10/Unique in the 44 Magnum case. Accuracy is outstanding and power is just fine for any of my uses.

1-38 was the rifling twist for the 44-40 round and Marlin adopted it without giving much thought to the issue. I load my rifle like it was a 44-40 and have great results.

[Kraschenbirn]

The Marlin 94 in 44 Magnum is a problem for some folks and a dream come true for others. Some claim good success with cast bullets and others that it is all but impossible to get one to shoot case bullets well.

I have such a rifle and am well pleased with the accuracy. I use a now discontinued RCBS 225 grain GC bullet sized .432 over 10/Unique in the 44 Magnum case. Accuracy is outstanding and power is just fine for any of my uses.

1-38 was the rifling twist for the 44-40 round and Marlin adopted it without giving much thought to the issue. I load my rifle like it was a 44-40 and have great results.

Hmmmm...very interesting. I load Lee's 200 gr. RNFP, sized .433 over 9.8 gr. Unique in my "JM" 1894 but don't expect "tackdriver" accuracy from a 20"-barreled lever action, either. 1 1/2"-2" iron-sight groups at 50 yards are 'good 'nuff' for my needs.

Bill

[44man]

I have a boolit that works at 50 but at 100, forget it. I did not know where it would go. Here is a lube test at 50.158184 I have the perfect 50 yard boolit but spin is not right for longer ranges. I shot a deer at 65 yards with it and hit 10" from POA. Killed her by luck. The Marlin .44 is best at 25 yards.
I loved the little gun, feel and looks. But it would not shoot.
I have owned marlins that would poke a gnats eye out at any distance like the 39 Mounty or the 35 Rem and 30-30 but the .44 is wrong.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have a 1894 CB 24" rifle. I have gotten "Good Accuracy" using 250-260gr Lyman 429244 GC. Mine only got sized to .431 as they were only .4315 to begin with.

By "Good Accuracy" I mean "Acceptable Accuracy." In my case that's about 1.5-2" at 50 yards. This is more than adequate for my shooting at Short Range Silhouette which is 50-200 meters. I've shot 26/40 with that gun and the misses were mine not the guns.

Others have unrealistic ideas of how well one of these guns should shoot. They are not tack drivers by any means!

As stated above the main problem is the twist rate at 1:38". In order to get anything to shoot right you will have to run the boolits as fast as you can and that means heavy loads at 1600fps and up. Longer boolits aren't going to have enough spin to shoot well, although people here claim good accuracy with the Lee 310 gr Boolit..

In order to get any SWC type boolit to feed right thru the action you will need to chamfer the mouth of the chamber to remove the sharp edge. The edges of the boolits will be gouged and stopped everytime if you don't.

I have to load a bunch of these up today as I'm shooting tomorrow.

I also got a Mihec Mould for this boolit that drops at .434 so they will be sized to .432 which might improve the accuracy somewhat.

The Greenhill Formula result that was used here was for the .44-40 using short fat boolits of @200gr. Everyone and their dog has been trying to get Remington to change the twist rate on the Marlin barrels to 1:20 for years now and they just won't do it. Another part of the problem is that the 1894 action is good up to about 45,000psi, and they are covering their butts incase someone tries some hot loads. The slower twist and larger bore size cuts down on pressure so the Lawyers are holding it there.

By contrast the Ruger 77/44 has a 1:20 twist and shoots a little better. It also has a bolt action which is much stronger than the Marlin.

But here's the main point: The 44 Magnum is a 150 yard cartridge! And as such accuracy is a relative thing. My 2" gun at 50 yards is a 6" gun at 150 and that is more than adequate accuracy for anything I would do with it.(including Silhouette) Also the type of hunting most people would do with these guns is relatively close range shooting in the woods or brush. 25 to 75 yards is probably the realistic ranges you'd be shooting.

As you can see the Accuracy of these guns is more than adequate at those ranges. Some are more accurate than others but most of the limitations are in the cartridge itself and not the gun. Rifles in .357 and .41 Magnums are no more accurate for the exact same reasons.

Short Fat Boolits aren't as accurate as Long Skinny ones. Simple as that.

However that doesn't mean the guns aren't useful. If you can't hit a deer or man sized target at 100 yards offhand using open sights with one of these rifles,,,, It won't be the guns fault,,, I'd say you need to practice a little more!:Fire:

Randy

[44man]

Greenhill has never worked for anything but BP cannons. I have so many twist calculation pages based on it that do not work.
Sorry but more practice will not make the gun shoot. I get better accuracy at 200 with a revolver then a marlin .44 does at 50. The group I showed was never duplicated either. I just held my tongue right. I have too many shots from the gun that were not on paper at 100 to ever trust hunting deer with it. To hit a deer at 150 with it is not in the cards, better buy lottery tickets.
Disney Land and pixie dust is not in the box the gun came in.

[nicodiesel]

some guys don't like them but i have a marlin 1894 in 44mag and well pleased with it. 310gr. Lee with h110 shoot in 2" at 100 yds

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Well friends,I just read all your replies and they are quite helpful.I appreciate the time you took to help me out.After a long day of honey do stuff and cleaning out the horse stalls,I had a chance to go to the man cave and loaded up some of my left over Hornady 240 gr.XTP's from 20 years ago over 22.5 grains of W296 in some new Starline. I'll check it out for accuracy with those and then if they shoot well,I'll have to clean the copper foulings out of it real good as the Crusty Deary Old Coot is sending me some 275 gr. GC cast bullets to try.Hopefully I can come back to you with good results. I will however let you know of the bad results to but right now,just got to think positive.

[longbow]

I shoot all plain base in mine with no leading at all... anymore anyway. When I started out I had the Lyman 429421 that cast at 0.429" using wheelweights. My bore slugs out at 0.4315" groove diameter. I got leading though not horrible but accuracy was mediocre to poor. Once I got a mould that cast to 0.433" life became good. Leading disappeared and accuracy improved dramatically.

Mine also didn't like SWC's and had to be modified to handle them. RNFP's on the other hand always fed well.

Mine likes the Mihec 434640. In solid it casts at 270 grs. and stabilizes just fine and gives good accuracy. I could not get any heavy (read 300 gr.+) boolits to shoot well. I tried a few but not all designs. I finally settled on 270 gr. max. weight that stabilized to any reasonable distance I wanted to shoot.

A proven design for the Marlin is RanchDog's 265 gr. RNFP and I think you would be hard pressed to do better. NOE has a standard lube groove version or you could go to Tom at Accurate Molds and he will make what you want in tumble lube groove or standard grease groove design. Not sure if NOE do PB or just GC in this design but Accurate will make what you want.

Longbow

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I shoot all plain base in mine with no leading at all... anymore anyway. When I started out I had the Lyman 429421 that cast at 0.429" using wheelweights. My bore slugs out at 0.4315" groove diameter. I got leading though not horrible but accuracy was mediocre to poor. Once I got a mould that cast to 0.433" life became good. Leading disappeared and accuracy improved dramatically.

Mine also didn't like SWC's and had to be modified to handle them. RNFP's on the other hand always fed well.

Mine likes the Mihec 434640. In solid it casts at 270 grs. and stabilizes just fine and gives good accuracy. I could not get any heavy (read 300 gr.+) boolits to shoot well. I tried a few but not all designs. I finally settled on 270 gr. max. weight that stabilized to any reasonable distance I wanted to shoot.

A proven design for the Marlin is RanchDog's 265 gr. RNFP and I think you would be hard pressed to do better. NOE has a standard lube groove version or you could go to Tom at Accurate Molds and he will make what you want in tumble lube groove or standard grease groove design. Not sure if NOE do PB or just GC in this design but Accurate will make what you want.

Longbow
Yep,I have my eye on that NOE Ranch Dog 265 gr.bullet in the GC. He does offer it in the PB version also but as plain base,I would imagine that I'd have to keep it down in the 44 special velocities to keep from leading.Don't know that for sure though.Tom's Accurate has a similar mould of the 265 gr. RD also and I sure like his iron molds.I shoot the NOE ranch Dog 350 gr. GC and PB out of my 45-70 1895 Marlin GG for awsome results on target and on deer.When it comes to choosing molds,it's a hard choice between NOE and Accurate.