44 Mag hardness and accuracy

[DAFzipper]

I am casting a hollow point bullet with a Lyman 429640 mold. I have cast with wheel weights with good accuracy over 20 grains of H110. I wanted softer bullets for better expansion. I cast some with a mix of 9lbs WW, 1lb lead and 2oz tin to get a hardness of around 8 BHN. I had to tape the mold to get my size up to .431. When I shoot this Alloy my groups are bigger by 75%. What should I try to get my group size down? They weigh 268 grains with the gas check. The WW bullet weighs 264. Should I change the powder charge or crimp pressure? I have the same problem with a SWC bullet cast from Linotype or Lyman #2 over 12 grains of Unique.

[grumpy one]

I am casting a hollow point bullet with a Lyman 429640 mold. I have cast with wheel weights with good accuracy over 20 grains of H110. I wanted softer bullets for better expansion. I cast some with a mix of 9lbs WW, 1lb lead and 2oz tin to get a hardness of around 8 BHN. I had to tape the mold to get my size up to .431. When I shoot this Alloy my groups are bigger by 75%. What should I try to get my group size down? They weigh 268 grains with the gas check. The WW bullet weighs 264. Should I change the powder charge or crimp pressure? I have the same problem with a SWC bullet cast from Linotype or Lyman #2 over 12 grains of Unique.

I suggest you make a direct comparison, where the only difference between two tests is the bullet alloy. In particular, make sure both batches of bullets are the same size, after sizing. If you then find the same deterioration in accuracy with the softer alloy, try hardening it either by oven heat treatment or water dropping.

There is a minimum required hardness for a particular combination of pressure and velocity, and it is possible that you've dropped below it by softening your bullets. However there are other possible causes as well, so you need more data as described above. If you find you are dropping just below the critical hardness, you will need to go approximately back to where you started or use a two-part bullet such as Bruce B has described.

[leftiye]

If your hardness in them WWs is only about 8, do you have a lot of stick on WWs in there (stick ons are pure lead for all intents and purposes)? Regular WWs go about 14 I think (can't remember, I don't use them straight). So the answer is that your alloy is too soft. Mix it 1/2 and 1/2 with real WWs and water drop it or heat treat it for a hardess of about 23. Air cooled it should run about BHN of 12.

[DAFzipper]

My WW test at 11 BHN. Wanted softer alloy for better expansion and weight retention for hunting load. Seems to me I'm missing something else. As I stated I cast a SWC bullet with Linotype and Lyman #2 Alloys. The Linotype allways group better. They are both sized the same at .431.

[HeavyMetal]

I'm going to make a suggestion that may seem a little left field.

Un tape the mold and use the softer boolits at a smaller as cast or sized diameter.

I think the softer boolits will upset to fill the bore if you size .429 or .430. The pressure with this load should get the softer alloy to "slug up"!

Can you recover a fired boolit? If you can and if it's not damaged look at it under a good magnifiy glass and see if you got signs of "skidding"! You may see the rifling marks on the lead kind of "stretched" but the rifling marks on the gas check are right on.

By sizing .431 the checks may be allowing a little spin on the boolit? Sizing .429 might just hold them long enough to get everything spinning as it should.

Let us know if this helps, if it doesn't maybe it will give us all another clue.

[leftiye]

Zipper, What is your groove diameter? Also your chamber mouth size? (Or, why did you want .431 boolits? Size at chamber mouth, or a thou or two bigger even, my choice is to size at chamber mouth size). With proper boolit fit, and a hard enough boolit for the pressures, things should come close to working correctly. Your load is maybe not maximum for the manuals, but it still makes some high pressures. You seem to be back at the idea that the softer lead is too soft for your pressures. If you want to shoot pure lead or thereabouts, you need to go to a lower pressure load at a lower velocity. Pure lead expands purty violently at 1300 fps. Your wheelweights seem to be of the 2% antimony persuasion (WWs are 4% antimony in some places, and 2% antimony other places). Already soft enough to expand at max. velocities (maybe not much below 1200 fps though, but the same alloy I choose to try to make expanding boolits). If they shoot well, do some expansion tests and see if you like the results (wet sawdust?)

[44man]

I am going to throw in the monkey wrench! [smilie=1: Why do you want more expansion? That soft of a boolit along with the hollow point is going to limit penetration big time. I would use air cooled WW's. That boolit has a large hollow point so you don't want it so hard it sheds petals but you don't want it to open so far it will stop short either. A bone hit would be bad.
Have you killed any deer with it yet as is? Or are you guessing that softer is better?

[Bass Ackward]

Change lube.

[DAFzipper]

Here is some more info. My cast bullet before I taped the mold was .430. My cylinders measured .4315 and barrel sluged at .431 to the best of my ability. Smaller bullets never shot well in this Ruger redhawk. .430 also caused some minor leading in bore.
I used this alloy after reading an article on thes LASC web site.
No I haven't shot anything yet, I am in the trial stages of this bullet and load.

[BABore]

Change lube.


Ditto to that. Try a good lube like LBT soft.

I'm running a 429421 HP out of my SBH Hunter with 24.5 grs of 296. The bullet is cast from 50/50 WW-Pb and air cooled for 9-10 Bhn. Bullet weight is around 240 grains and it is sized to the cylinder throats at 0.4315 diameter. No leading and it'll do an even inch at 50 yards if I do my part. I'm running a Voodoo lube variation made by 357Max. It will equal LBT lube up to high velocity rifle stuff.

[44man]

Now 50-50 is a good mix and I use a lot of it. I water drop to make it harder but it is still ductile and will expand some without limiting penetration.
No matter what alloy I use I want two holes in my game. The only real way to see what a boolit will do is to shoot a bunch of animals.
That is why I gave up the 240 gr XTP, it opened too fast and stopped against the rib cage. It killed OK but left too small a blood trail. Not a bad thing if you can watch the deer but if it goes into the thick, you will have a tracking job. I worried about a quartering shot or a bone hit so I stopped using them.
From what I have seen, I would not use a soft hollow point. In fact I stay away from them and use a large meplat only.
The bigger and tougher the game, the worse the soft boolit is unless the boolit is very heavy. I would not shoot a big hog with a soft hollow point.

[45 2.1]

From what I have seen, I would not use a soft hollow point. In fact I stay away from them and use a large meplat only.
Well, thats fine when your useing a big boomer loaded heavy. When your useing something smaller, for deer, with less cartridge pressure capability, IT DOESN'T AT ALL (you'll have the deer run off with no blood trail to follow usually). For 10mm, 44 specials, 45 Colts and 45 ACP revolvers I use 50/50 WW & Pb with boolit weight anywhere from 180 gr. to 240 gr. dependent on cartridge. I get 8 BHN air cooled and shoot big cavernous cast hollow points for deer hunting. Since 1991 i've killed a lot of deer this way. Put it in the lung/heart area broadside or quartering (no shoulder shots though they do work) and you get expansion, complete penetration and a DRT deer. An exit hole you can put three fingers in too.

The bigger and tougher the game, the worse the soft boolit is unless the boolit is very heavy. I would not shoot a big hog with a soft hollow point. True, and a different thing all together.

[44man]

But I don't gots no little guns! :mrgreen:
I suppose I would use a 320 gr hollow point in the .44 because it has weight and in the smaller calibers expansion is needed.
But it's true that I push the boolits too hard for a light, soft hollow point. They stop too fast.
And you said it yourself, stay away from bone.
It works just like a super light 300 gr arrow going 300 fps. Even behind the shoulder, 6" of penetration can happen while another shot almost in the same spot will go through. No predictions as to what it will do. Hit the shoulder and 1" of penetration is all there is.
Take my 650 gr arrows and 200 fps will go through every time UNLESS the shoulder is hit, then all bets are off. Now speed the heavy arrow up to 240 fps and no bone in a deer will stop it. 300 fps would be the ultimate but even the new bows only shoot fast because of the light arrows used.
A large meplat, HEAVY boolit does not have to be fast to go through anything and kill. But if sped up, the primary would channel gets larger and penetration is increased.
Speeding up a light, soft hollow point will HURT penetration and since I don't have any TOY :bigsmyl2: guns, I aint a usin em.
I hope you like the TOY designation. :coffee:
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[runfiverun]

with the last 4 deer i have shot using the 45. colt and the 250 xtp it never expanded,
even with 1500 fps mv.
consequently the 44mag and 45 colt will now shoot deer with acww at same velocity
with out hollow point.
i spent 3 months this winter shootin various sized h-points at various velocities into various
materials ,
cow hide covered snow, levis and water, sand, paper, snow, cowhide covered wet paper.

i'll just shoot straight cast with a good meplat.

[Lloyd Smale]

that mold is advertized by lyman to work best with #2. Ive shot deer and one buffalo with it. the deer i killed was with a mix of 5050 ww/pure air cooled and the buffalo was with #2 both bullets lost there nose and did penetrate completly. I know they lost there noses because i recovered enough of the lead in the animal to determine that. I really think with that big hollow point lyman has it right. cast it out of #2 and let it work like a nos. partition. That been said ive shot enough animals lately with hollow points and soft nosed cast and have seen some poor results and anything bigger then a whitetail will get a standard hardcast lfn or swc. they actually kill just as well and do it every time at every angle.

[leftiye]

Maybe the thing to look for with expanding boolits is a small mushroom that doesn't shed weight (ends up looking like a wadcutter with a mashed nose)? Maybe tougher alloy, and small HPs, or no HP (round noses, and medium hardness)? Especially with .475s and 50s it looks like (from Lloyd's sheep experience) that at the lower velocities that are necessary for soft boolit expansion (1300 fps), they don't have enough energy to push the mushroomed boolit far enough into the target animal. So, maybe a little harder and correspondingly faster.

[BABore]

Maybe the thing to look for with expanding boolits is a small mushroom that doesn't shed weight (ends up looking like a wadcutter with a mashed nose)? Maybe tougher alloy, and small HPs, or no HP (round noses, and medium hardness)? Especially with .475s and 50s it looks like (from Lloyd's sheep experience) that at the lower velocities that are necessary for soft boolit expansion (1300 fps), they don't have enough energy to push the mushroomed boolit far enough into the target animal. So, maybe a little harder and correspondingly faster.


I think Lloyd was talking buffalo. I don't believe we can discuss Lloyd sheep experience on this forum. :holysheep :razz:

Cutting WW's with 50% Pb, then water dropping or heat treating in the low 400 F range, will give you the hard yet tough alloy your looking for. The lower antimony level helps keep the mushroom intact.

[leftiye]

Twere sheep and a buffalo. That alloy, maybe with some more tin and some copper for toughness would be my guess.

[Lloyd Smale]

dont tell anybody about my sheep fetish!!
I think Lloyd was talking buffalo. I don't believe we can discuss Lloyd sheep experience on this forum. :holysheep :razz:

Cutting WW's with 50% Pb, then water dropping or heat treating in the low 400 F range, will give you the hard yet tough alloy your looking for. The lower antimony level helps keep the mushroom intact.

[DAFzipper]

Raised charge to 21.5 H110 and groups started to tighten up. Very slight leading in barrel. Wish I could recover one to check how it held together!

[Lloyd Smale]

i agree with the others. With that bullet i wouldnt go any softer the straight air cooled ww. Unless its going to be a varmit bullet it just isnt going to be a reliable penetrator.