Barrel Break in

[brad925]

I just bought a new baikel 45-70 double rifle and i want to shoot cast boolitts out of it. It came with break in instructions but doesn't say if i can do the break in with cast or have to do it with jacketed. If anyone has an answer to this i would appreciate hearing about it.

[petroid]

Most say to use jacketed and clean after every shot or two for the first ten to twenty rounds. If there are machining burrs, this is supposed to smooth it out. cast may or may not do the same thing, but I would think any burrs are more likely to strip lead from a boolit, than copper from a jword. FWIW, I have a Ruger 308 that has never seen a jacketed bullet.

[JSnover]

Firing twenty jacketed bullets won't hurt your bore but I imagine burrs would be very thin and easily removed with properly sized cast boolits.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Nowadays, I would think the best way to deal with a barrel needing break in is to fire lap it with fine grits. Quick, painless and effective.

[John Taylor]

I would just start shooting it. Clean after every 10 shots, checking for lead build up. After 100 rounds of lead there should be no problem. If there is a leading problem after 100 rounds then think about fire lapping. Pope thought that lapping a barrel was pre-mature ware.

[Outpost75]

In my experience more barrels are worn out by improper cleaning than by shooting.

John is 100% correct!

Start with a clean barrel. The bore should not be dry. A light wet brushing, followed by a wet patch to flush out any loosened debris, followed by two dry patches is adequate. Any good standard bore cleaner will do, Mil-C-372B, Hoppes, Ed's Red, Kroil.

After ten shots simply wet patch and inspect the patch. If you see lead particles on the patch, or deposits in the bore, then wet-brush, wet-patch, two dry patches, dry the chamber go back to shooting. By the time you have done this ten to a dozen times, you will know the answer.

Personally, if leading or metal fouling were a problem, I would repeat the clean and shoot ten times using JB + Kroil before I would consider lapping. JB and Kroil produces uniform results through the entire barrel. Fire lapping works mostly on the throat and causes premature wear.

[Clay M]

With most new rifles I always run several hundred jacketed bullets through them.
I shoot both jacketed and cast, and like to see what each are capable of.
I clean the barrel between every five shots.
Bore Tech Eliminator works great to keep the copper out.
I do not fire lap as that can put excessive wear on the throat.
Usually after 100 rds I find the copper is easier to remove.

The Eliminator is the best product I have used so far.

My Sharps, High Walls, and my Ruger #1 .45/70 have never had any jacketed bullets.

[EDG]

But you have to take what Pope said into the context of him shooting his own very superior barrels.
He would probably refuse to shoot some of these inside out corn cobs that most of us shoot on a regular basis.
I suspect that Pope would not mind a lapped 4140 barrel compared to a barrel made of chewing gum soft steel.

Depending on how smooth the barrel feels with those tough synthetic patches, I may wipe the bore after every shot to see if there is any fouling building up.
If not I keep shooting. If there is fouling I try to get it out with patches and solvent. If not I use a worn brush about 2 passes with solvent. This proceeds to about 20 rounds. After than I may clean after 5 rounds until about half the bluing is gone from the grooves at the muzzle. That might take 75 to 200 rounds. After that I shoot it as normal.
If there is little to no fouling I may skip much of the fooling around. If the bore is rough and fouls I will keep cleaning it even longer.



I would just start shooting it. Clean after every 10 shots, checking for lead build up. After 100 rounds of lead there should be no problem. If there is a leading problem after 100 rounds then think about fire lapping. Pope thought that lapping a barrel was pre-mature ware.

[country gent]

I normally use the procedure I was given many years ago of shoot 1 rounnd and clean for 10 rds then 2 round groups and clean for 10 rounds, 3 round groups for 9 shots then 5 round for 20 shots and clean from here 10 shot grouos and clean to 100 rds. Jacketed bullets in appropriate firearms and lead in BPCR. the Idea is to keep fouling build ups out of the rough areas so the bullets can smooth them. One thing I have noticed is on my big bores that see Paper Patched bullet the bores are exceptionally shiney and smooth after 50-100 rounds. Maybe buy 100 slicks from Buffalo arms around 450 dia and wrap up to .458 -.459 and use these to smooth and break in the barrel. Paper is a very fine abrasive and should do a great job with the above procedure.

[montana_charlie]

I just bought a new baikel 45-70 double rifle and i want to shoot cast boolitts out of it. It came with break in instructions but doesn't say if i can do the break in with cast or have to do it with jacketed. If anyone has an answer to this i would appreciate hearing about it.
I bet the manufacturer of your new rifle knows the answer to your question.
Why haven't you asked them?

[EDG]

I do not know of any company that will warranty a firearm fired with handloads. Most factory ammo is jacketed.
So breaking in (2) 45-70 barrels would be expensive with jacketed bullets unless you handload. You could use cast bullets but break in might take 200 rounds per barrel because the lead is so soft.


I just bought a new baikel 45-70 double rifle and i want to shoot cast boolitts out of it. It came with break in instructions but doesn't say if i can do the break in with cast or have to do it with jacketed. If anyone has an answer to this i would appreciate hearing about it.

[JSnover]

The barrel will break in no matter what you shoot, the main thing is to keep it clean. It shouldn't take long to get any burrs out and if you're satisfied the the bore is clean, you won't do any harm by taking it hunting before you've fired the often-recommened 50 - 200 rounds.

[CHeatermk3]

Brad, I have a Baikal O/U 12ga/30-06 combo gun; it's bores are chrome plated. Does your double have chromed bores?

[Mauser48]

Don't do the barrel break in procedure its a myth. It does absolutely nothing good for your barrel. Go read gale mcmillans comments about it. The barrel break in procedure was created to reduce the life of your barrel so it wears put faster and you have to buy a new one. Just take it out and shoot it.

[ironhead7544]

Most new bores come filthy from the maker. I run a soaked patch down the bore a few time to get it soaked with solvent. Leave it overnight and rebrush. Use one of the spray gun cleaners until the spray comes out clean. Then rebrush and clean with patches. 20 rounds of jacketed in each barrel should smooth it out. Then remove the fouling with copper solvent. Slug the bore for cast bullets. I would check and find out what ammo they recommend. Then try to match the weight and speed with the cast.

It will be a fun project and I wish I had one of those.

[EDG]

>>>The barrel break in procedure was created to reduce the life of your barrel<<<
Now that is a myth. I am going to shoot the rifle anyway to work up loads. It is not just a brain dead process running bullets through the barrel. For me break in does not involve one single extra shot. Not even 1. All I do is wipe the bore a little more often and look for fouling. If fouling is found it is removed before continuing. If you want to run over existing fouling with another bullet it is ok with me because it is your new barrel. But to know if your barrel needs break in or not you have to look. It costs nothing to look and looking does not wear the bore.

You might check to see if McMillan laps his barrels because it makes a difference.
Earnie Stallman who made the well know Badger barrels for Browning BPCRs also lapped those barrels - and he advocated a short break in too.



Don't do the barrel break in procedure its a myth. It does absolutely nothing good for your barrel. Go read gale mcmillans comments about it. so it wears put faster and you have to buy a new one. Just take it out and shoot it.

[Tenbender]

http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/Barrel_BreakIn.asp

[EDG]

I think that McMillan knows his own barrels and does not necessarily know what the rest of us shoot.
He may have never fired a cast bullet in his life and his first comments were about a guy that served the benchrest market ie jacketed bullets.

[waksupi]

Two of my best shooting rifles have never had a jacketed round fired through them.

[M-Tecs]

Krieger's view on barrel break-in.

https://www.kriegerbarrels.com/faq#breakin

BREAK-IN & CLEANING:

With any premium barrel that has been finish lapped -- such as your Krieger Barrel --, the lay or direction of the finish is in the direction of the bullet travel, so fouling is minimal compared to a barrel with internal tooling marks. This is true of any properly finish-lapped barrel regardless of how it is rifled. If it is not finish-lapped, there will be reamer marks left in the bore that are directly across the direction of the bullet travel. This occurs even in a button-rifled barrel as the button cannot completely iron out these reamer marks.
Because the lay of the finish is in the direction of the bullet travel, very little is done to the bore during break-in, but the throat is another story. When your barrel is chambered, by necessity there are reamer marks left in the throat that are across the lands, i.e. across the direction of the bullet travel. In a new barrel they are very distinct; much like the teeth on a very fine file.

When the bullet is forced into the throat, copper dust is removed from the jacket material and released into the gas which at this temperature and pressure is actually a plasma. The copper dust is vaporized in this plasma and is carried down the barrel. As the gas expands and cools, the copper comes out of suspension and is deposited in the bore. This makes it appear as if the source of the fouling is the bore when it is actually for the most part the new throat.
If this copper is allowed to stay in the bore, and subsequent bullets and deposits are fired over it, copper which adheres well to itself, will build up quickly and may be difficult to remove later. So when we break in a barrel, our goal is to get the throat “polished without allowing copper to build up in the bore. This is the reasoning for the fire-one-shot-and-clean procedure.

Every barrel will vary slightly in how many rounds they take to break in For example a chrome moly barrel may take longer to break in than stainless steel because it is more abrasion resistant even though it is a similar hardness. Also chrome moly has a little more of an affinity for copper than stainless steel so it will usually show a little more color if you are using a chemical cleaner. Rim Fire barrels can take an extremely long time to break in, sometimes requiring several hundred rounds or more. But cleaning can be lengthened to every 25-50 rounds. The break-in procedure and the cleaning procedure are really the same except for the frequency. Remember the goal is to get or keep the barrel clean while breaking in the throat with bullets being fired over it.

Finally, the best way to tell if the barrel is broken in is to observe the patches; i.e. when the fouling is reduced. This is better than some set number of cycles of shoot and clean as many owners report practically no fouling after the first few shots, and more break-in would be pointless. Conversely, if more is required, a set number would not address that either. Besides, cleaning is not a completely benign procedure so it should be done carefully and no more than necessary.

[M-Tecs]

Gale McMillan's view on barrel break-in.

http://www.6mmbr.com/GailMcMbreakin.html


How to Break-in a Barrel

-- A Dissenting Point of View



Gale McMillan, of McMillan Stocks fame, was one of the finest barrel-makers and benchrest shooters of all time. Here he argues that elaborate barrel break-in procedures do more harm than good.

Comments collected from Gale's Gun Forum postings.

As a barrel maker I have looked in thousands of new and used barrels with a bore scope and I will tell you that if every one followed the prescribed [one shot, one clean] break-in method, a very large number would do more harm than good. The reason you hear of the gain in accuracy is because if you chamber a barrel with a reamer that has a dull throater instead of cutting clean sharp rifling it smears a burr up on the down wind side of the rifling. It takes from one to two hundred rounds to burn this burr out and the rifle to settle down and shoot its best. Any one who chambers rifle barrels has tolerances on how dull to let the reamer get and factories let them go longer than any competent smith would.

Another tidbit to consider--take a 300 Win Mag that has a life expectancy of 1000 rounds. Use 10% of it up with your break-in procedure. For every 10 barrels the barrel-maker makes he has to make one more just to take care of the break-in. No wonder barrel-makers like to see this. Now when you flame me on this please [explain] what you think is happening to the inside of your barrel during the break in that is helping you.

Consider this: every round shot in breaking-in a barrel is one round off the life of said rifle barrel. No one has ever told me the physical reason of what happens during break-in firing. In other words what, to the number of pounds of powder shot at any given pressure, is the life of the barrel. No one has ever explained what is being accomplished by shooting and cleaning in any prescribed method. Start your barrel off with 5 rounds and clean it thoroughly and do it again. Nev Maden, a friend down under that my brother taught to make barrels was the one who came up with the [one shot one clean] break-in method. He may think he has come upon something, or he has come up with another way to sell barrels. I feel that the first shot out of a barrel is its best and every one after that deteriorates [the bore] until the barrel is gone. If some one can explain what physically takes place during break-in to modify the barrel then I may change my mind. As the physical properties of a barrel don't change because of the break-in procedures it means it's all hog wash. I am open to any suggestions that can be documented otherwise if it is just someone's opinion--forget it.

It all got started when a barrel maker that I know started putting break-in instructions in the box with each barrel he shipped a few years ago. I asked him how he figured it would help and his reply was if they shoot 100 rounds breaking in this barrel that's total life is 3000 rounds and I make 1000 barrels a year just figure how many more barrels I will get to make. He had a point; it definately will shorten the barrel life. I have been a barrel maker a fair amount of time and my barrels have set and reset benchrest world records so many times I quit keeping track (at one time they held 7 at one time) along with High Power, Silhouette, Smallbore national and world records and my instructions were to clean as often as possible preferably every 10 rounds. I inspect every barrel taken off and every new barrel before it is shipped with a bore scope and I will tell you all that I see far more barrels ruined by cleaning rods than I see worn out from normal wear and tear. I am even reading about people recommending breaking-in pistols. As if it will help their shooting ability or the guns'.

More from Gale McMillan: http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/Barrel_BreakIn.asp

[M-Tecs]

My view on barrel break-in (toolmaker by trade and part-time gun plummer)

I mostly do installs for NRA Match,Palma, Long Rang and Service rifles with a few brenchrest thrown in. I prefer Krieger barrels and I use carbide reamers 100% of the time specifically for the superior finish on the throats.

Very few of the accuracy crowd will disagree that new barrels take X number of shots before they reach maximum accuracy (settle in). Depending on the barrel and throat this could be very few rounds and in extreme case as many as a couple of hundred.

The borescope coupled with testing has proved to me that barrels with smooth throats will reach their maximum accuracy (settle in) sooner that ones with rougher throats so I believe barrel break-in has some merit.

The above is directed towards the accuracy crowd using jackets.

The OP's question was if he can use boolits in lieu of jacketed. If it was mine I would use boolits and not worry about unless I saw specific leading issues.

[EDG]

I think you can wind up with almost any sort of answer given the variability of barrels and bullets.

None of the accuracy type guys would have much of a clue about a rough unlapped barrel shooting cast bullets.
Would any of the top barrel makers know a thing about breaking in a Marlin Micro-groove that grows a layer of copper fur with just 2 or 3 shots?
The McMillan barrel making business was sold to Bill Wiseman. I used to work with one of Wiseman's former employees.

Quote
Bill Wiseman and Co., designs and manufactures a complete line of pressure and test barrels for all certified SAAMI calibers .17 through .50 or 20mm. All Bill Wiseman Company barrels start out as 416 stainless steel bar stock and go through a manufacturer process. Each and every barrel is button rifled, heat treated and hand lapped. Bill supervises the entire process and personally performs the critical steps for each and every barrel.

When Wiseman was making barrels for the general public (does not look like he does that anymore) the designer that I worked with did a lot or most of the barrel work including lapping of the barrels. The barrels were lapped with 240 grit abrasive. Did they make barrels for cast bullets? I don't think so but neither does Marlington.

I think the real answer is look through the bore of a new rifle while you are shooting it to see if it is fouling - if you even care.

[Mauser48]

>>>The barrel break in procedure was created to reduce the life of your barrel<<<
Now that is a myth. I am going to shoot the rifle anyway to work up loads. It is not just a brain dead process running bullets through the barrel. For me break in does not involve one single extra shot. Not even 1. All I do is wipe the bore a little more often and look for fouling. If fouling is found it is removed before continuing. If you want to run over existing fouling with another bullet it is ok with me because it is your new barrel. But to know if your barrel needs break in or not you have to look. It costs nothing to look and looking does not wear the bore.

You might check to see if McMillan laps his barrels because it makes a difference.
Earnie Stallman who made the well know Badger barrels for Browning BPCRs also lapped those barrels - and he advocated a short break in too.

Go read about it, youd be surprised.

[EDG]

I read that at least 15 years ago. McMillan sold his business to Wiseman and I believe McMillan is dead now so you will not be hearing more from him. McMillan was talking in reference to his own barrels and another guy's bench rest barrels. He did not have to deal with everyone else's hunting rifle barrels. The superior accuracy life a competition bench rest barrel is limited, I hear, to a few thousand rounds or less. I doubt that anyone cares about the extra barrel wear in a hunting rifle or a military rifle barrel. I don't think anyone can make a blanket statement since they are unlikely to know the full range of rifle barrels that are used by millions of shooters. Bore finishes vary, groove diameters vary and bullet metals vary. No one can guarantee that some barrels don't need a little extra attention to prevent fouling.

Like I said above, what I do does not add one single round to the number of rounds that I fire. The break in rounds happen while I am working up my first loads. I just clean a little more if the barrel is fouling. It is not hard to figure out. You just look in the bore. It is especially easy with a single shot like a Highwall, Sharps or Ruger because you can get your eye so close to the breech end of the barrel.
Another way that I evaluate a barrel is to just wipe it with a few barely wet patches at the range and again when I get home. Then I check it again in a week or 2 after the solvent has worked on the fouling. If there is almost no crud the bore does not need much attention. If you see stuff growing in the barrel where the solvent has attacked metal fouling then bore still needs some attention. Nothing McMillian ever said can make me ignore fouling when I see it. You can also find that Ernie Stallman of Badgers the former proprietor of Badger Barrels (the maker of the Browning BPCR barrels) recommended that his lapped BPCR barrels be lapped with a few jacketed bullets. I have several Badger barrels and I wiped them between shots to see if they fouled for the first 20 to 30. No big deal. They were cast bullets and I was working up loads.



Go read about it, youd be surprised.

[Menner]

Ran across this awhile back interesting read

http://www.6mmbr.com/gailmcmbreakin.html
Tony

[toallmy]

:target_smiley:I am breaking in a new 26 in. 223 now just found out my cleaning rod Is to short. You always need one more thing. I usual just clean it every 5-10 shots for the first 100 or so. After that 50-100 or until groups get opening up With jackets. I want to wear them out shooting not cleaning them. But I have some that want to be shot less between cleaning or thay start to open up the group a little. Most of my guns are low maintenance as far as cleaning goes. But I think you shoot them in at first to hone in the bore . Just always done it like that.

[brad925]

Not sure sure. I will look into that.

[EDG]

From Krieger's web page


https://www.kriegerbarrels.com/faq#breakin

BREAK-IN & CLEANING: With any premium barrel that has been finish lapped -- such as your Krieger Barrel --, the lay or direction of the finish is in the direction of the bullet travel, so fouling is minimal compared to a barrel with internal tooling marks. This is true of any properly finish-lapped barrel regardless of how it is rifled. If it is not finish-lapped, there will be reamer marks left in the bore that are directly across the direction of the bullet travel. This occurs even in a button-rifled barrel as the button cannot completely iron out these reamer marks.
Because the lay of the finish is in the direction of the bullet travel, very little is done to the bore during break-in, but the throat is another story. When your barrel is chambered, by necessity there are reamer marks left in the throat that are across the lands, i.e. across the direction of the bullet travel. In a new barrel they are very distinct; much like the teeth on a very fine file.
When the bullet is forced into the throat, copper dust is removed from the jacket material and released into the gas which at this temperature and pressure is actually a plasma. The copper dust is vaporized in this plasma and is carried down the barrel. As the gas expands and cools, the copper comes out of suspension and is deposited in the bore. This makes it appear as if the source of the fouling is the bore when it is actually for the most part the new throat.
If this copper is allowed to stay in the bore, and subsequent bullets and deposits are fired over it, copper which adheres well to itself, will build up quickly and may be difficult to remove later. So when we break in a barrel, our goal is to get the throat “polished without allowing copper to build up in the bore. This is the reasoning for the fire-one-shot-and-clean procedure.
Every barrel will vary slightly in how many rounds they take to break in For example a chrome moly barrel may take longer to break in than stainless steel because it is more abrasion resistant even though it is a similar hardness. Also chrome moly has a little more of an affinity for copper than stainless steel so it will usually show a little more color if you are using a chemical cleaner. Rim Fire barrels can take an extremely long time to break in, sometimes requiring several hundred rounds or more. But cleaning can be lengthened to every 25-50 rounds. The break-in procedure and the cleaning procedure are really the same except for the frequency. Remember the goal is to get or keep the barrel clean while breaking in the throat with bullets being fired over it.
Finally, the best way to tell if the barrel is broken in is to observe the patches; i.e. when the fouling is reduced. This is better than some set number of cycles of shoot and clean as many owners report practically no fouling after the first few shots, and more break-in would be pointless. Conversely, if more is required, a set number would not address that either. Besides, cleaning is not a completely benign procedure so it should be done carefully and no more than necessary.


End Quote

Krieger laps their barrels so they probably need little break in
But if you have an ordinary factory barrel it will probably be rougher and if not lapped it will take longer to smooth out the tool marks.

[Clay M]

One day I will own a rifle with a Kreiger barrel.
It is amazing how rough the bore looks on my Savage 112 BVSS. It shoots great, but I am careful to keep it clean.

[country gent]

My M1As NM rifles both have had kriegers installed on them. One was short throated for 155 sierra palmas to touch rifling from magazine length. But now thats probably history LOL. Both these barrels are very good barrels. My ars service rifle and match rifle are krieger 1-7 twists in 223. ANd The ar 10s 243 upper and 22-250 upper both wear krieger barrels. I have a spare match upper that is wearing a lilja. My Model 70 match rifle wears a Hart. ANd a long range wildcat has a 3 groove Pac-Nor on it. All are good barrels but I do perfer kriegers. Expensive yes but never gotten a bad one from them. The one M1A is on its third krieger barrel and the other is on its second one. The Ar flat top is on its second krieger barrel. I would really like to have a krieger Alex ander henry rifled blank installed on one of the BPCR shillouette rifles. Maybe someday.

[lefty o]

another thing i always laugh at, your taking 1 more round of life off a barrel every shot for break in. do people really think that those who do any kind of break in are just firing the dang things off into space. i have my own thoughts and beliefs about it, but the facts are simple , unless you are a hack with a cleaning rod, doing a break in procedure will not reduce the life of a barrel, nor waste any ammunition. now if your a hack that just saws away at a barrel with a cleaning rod, then youd be best served by not cleaning the thing at all.

[Static line]

In my experience,I have found no advantage to barrel break-in procedures and God only knows how many different break-in procedures there are.Just shoot em,enjoy em and they will take care of themselves.