22-250 cast adventure, coyote

[birdadly]

Hello everyone, I've been out of casting/reloading for the past 2 years but I hope to be back! I'm venturing into my first rifle rounds and it's been frustrating. I'm currently not feeling well so figure I'll write to you all about it as I know in the past that always made me feel better :)

I want to hunt coyote with a lead bullet out of my Savage 22-250; I believe 1:12 barrel. Before I took a break I bought the NOE 55 grain FN mold (hoping that will do the trick). I was having trouble with good fillout both times I tried to cast. The 2nd time went better, hotter mold helped, but still lots of rejects. Weight was random, from 60.4 to 61.3. I gathered a group between 60.4 - 60.7 to use. I used 9.5lbs of pure lead, 9.5lbs of COWW and 11oz of pewter.

I size them in my Lyman 4500 with a .225 die. This is my 1st time using gas checks. I put a check into the die, then the bullet, then sized it (using the top punch that came with the mold) and it smooshed/rounded the bullet. The pic below shows some. The far right bullet is NOT sized, showing the flat nose. Too much force?

I tried putting a check on by hand, then drive it into a Lee sizer, and that seemed to work. That's a reasonable way to put them on right? I still need to put into the 4500 though to lube and when I did that, they came out less deformed, but the couple i tried I believe did shrink a little bit in length.

Frustrated, I decided to at least start some brass prep... only to realize that I never bought the Lyman M die for 22!!

I'm not going to ask for load info, but I'd at least like to mention my plan of attack. I believe I can use the Lyman 225646 info, it sounds like Accurate 5744 would be good, so I will start at the low end of 16.2 and work up. Reading about that powder makes me believe I don't need to use a filler(which I've never used), so I don't plan to.

I'm using my own once fired WIN brass. My understanding is that I re-size it and then use my Lyman case length gauge to see if it needs trimming. If it fits in there, then I don't need to trim it this time around?

I think that's all I want to throw at you all this time around. I know it was already too much to read :)
Thanks in advance for any advice, input, critique, etc. -Brad

[35 shooter]

Pop those checks on the shank first and get them started straight before sticking them in your sizing die.

[vzerone]

You may be trying to size to soon after casting them They are still soft then. Wait a day or two. Sounds like almost a 50/50 alloy except with the pewter added. If you water drop them right from the mold they will age harder. You should let them age at least two weeks. I know that's a long time to wait, but if you have a good alloy that works for you, you just cast a whole bunch of them and then the waiting leaves you with bullets that will last a long time. Next you cast a bunch more before that first batch runs out. Get the idea?

Like 35 said you seat your gas check all the way before sizing. There's a gas check seater made for the Lyman luber/sizer. You may want to purchase one. If you're handy at making things you can make one easily. Again don't do anything to the bullet till a day or two.

Good luck on your hunting.

[wmitty]

Your alloy is very soft and is deforming when you attempt to size the boolit (notice the meplat being deformed by the concave shape of the nose punch). Probably would help to anneal the checks but I fear you are going to need an alloy which you can harden by water dropping from mould or possibly heat treating. I got into this with some 7mm boolits I cast (7mm soupcan) and didn't realize how soft the alloy was until I tried seating gas checks and sizing in a Lyman 45. They looked just like your boolit on the left.

[runfiverun]

you do have the option of the lee sizer to seat the checks and then lube in the lyman.
if you just want to seat them in the cases you can bump the case mouth against a 24 cal neck expander ball and give the case mouth a little flair.
that's how I do it any way [I don't own an M anything nor a lee or an rcbs spud thingy]

[JWT]

I have a Remington 700 in 22-250 that I plan to load using a NOE 225-55-FN GC 55gr. I cast them just before Christmas and plan to size and load next weekend. I am looking at the data in the Lyman #4 book and planning on 5744 or SR4759.

[birdadly]

Thanks for reading and replying fellas!

This isthe softest alloy I have ever used (only have used COWW before), and smallest bullet I've used too, so new territory. I'll let them sit for another week and hope they get a bit tougher. I didn't water-drop because I thought air-cooled would be better for hunting?

I do have the check seater that came with my 4500. I'll pull that out and try seating them before running them thru the sizer. That sounds ideal to me.

JWT, I believe I've read as much as I could find on the 22-250 here and some on other places. That's the exact mold I am working with too. If you'd like to share your experiences they would be more than welcome. Feel free to write them here or message me. I don't know if these will be your first rifle rounds reloaded/casted, but they are mine!

Any more comments, etc. are still welcome as I love getting advice from you guys/gals. -Brad

[jhalcott]

I've used a 55 grain cast boolit for the .223 and 22-250 on groundhogs with great success. MY alloy was straight ACWW with a gas check. I usually cast a few days before checking and lube/sizing the bullets. I found that I saved a LOT of time by tumble lubing (some people do NOT like the FROG SNOT!). I worked up some loads to around 2500 fps with decent accuracy in a couple of my guns. The loads were definetely NOT for ANY gun of the same caliber though. I have a 14" TC Contender that refused to group with any cast bullet. The loads did not work in some of my guns, BUT were very good in another of same caliber. I tried some Linotype alloy that seemed better for all the .22's I have/had but they penciled thru the critters and let them get back into their holes.

[Victor N TN]

Only thing I can tell you about a 22-250... Back in the 1970s I was ground hog hunting with a guy from work. We left one day going to a pasture field where we had spotted several a few days before. I was following in my pickup truck. He was in his CJ-5 Jeep. He started waving his arm out the window and pulled over on the shoulder of the gravel road. I saw him pulling his Rem 700 22-250 out and sighted over the TOP of his convertible top. When he fired the shot... I thought he was going to fall off his "nerf" bars on his Jeep. The concussion from the muzzle blast ripped a section of the canvas a foot wide and half way across the top of his Jeep. Moral of the story, Don't fire a high power rifle while resting it on a "rag" top.

Sorry to hijack the thread.

[vzerone]

Thanks for reading and replying fellas!

This isthe softest alloy I have ever used (only have used COWW before), and smallest bullet I've used too, so new territory. I'll let them sit for another week and hope they get a bit tougher. I didn't water-drop because I thought air-cooled would be better for hunting?

I do have the check seater that came with my 4500. I'll pull that out and try seating them before running them thru the sizer. That sounds ideal to me.

JWT, I believe I've read as much as I could find on the 22-250 here and some on other places. That's the exact mold I am working with too. If you'd like to share your experiences they would be more than welcome. Feel free to write them here or message me. I don't know if these will be your first rifle rounds reloaded/casted, but they are mine!

Any more comments, etc. are still welcome as I love getting advice from you guys/gals. -Brad

If they don't get much harder you can oven heat treat them. One more thing if that pewter has a lot of tin in it I'm afraid your bullets may lead the dickens out of your barrel. The 50/50 alloy that many talk of is 50 % lead and 50 % wheel weights. I don't add any more tin to it then just was is in the wheel weights. If you find you must add tin I wouldn't add very much say like 1 %.

[southpaw]

I use that mould in one of my 22-250's (1-14" 26" long) with 4227. I think I might try the 5744 next time I play with it. I use straight lino (have to check notes to see if I water dropped them). I was getting pretty good groups at 100 yards, < 1.5" some about 1". I didn't do much sorting tho. I also use the m die. It opens the neck up some and gives it a little flare.

You are right about the trimming of your brass, but, I would trim it all to the same length to start. That way they are all the same and should help with consistency.

What size are your boolits dropping at? The one on the left looks like it was sized quite a bit. Mine didn't give me that much trouble sizing them (same mould).

What xzerone is talking about with the sn content is you don't want your sn content to exceed your sb content. Your sb content is probably 1.5% or a little less (just a guess here). I think you may need to harden your alloy but I have not shot anything that soft out of my 22 cals.

When casting the 22's I run my pot on the hotter side and keep the mould hot and cast fast. Works for me. I have some rejects in the begging when the mould is getting hot but once it is there and I find the right tempo all is good.

Jerry Jr.

[MarkP]

Only thing I can tell you about a 22-250... Back in the 1970s I was ground hog hunting with a guy from work. We left one day going to a pasture field where we had spotted several a few days before. I was following in my pickup truck. He was in his CJ-5 Jeep. He started waving his arm out the window and pulled over on the shoulder of the gravel road. I saw him pulling his Rem 700 22-250 out and sighted over the TOP of his convertible top. When he fired the shot... I thought he was going to fall off his "nerf" bars on his Jeep. The concussion from the muzzle blast ripped a section of the canvas a foot wide and half way across the top of his Jeep. Moral of the story, Don't fire a high power rifle while resting it on a "rag" top.

Sorry to hijack the thread.


Remember the old flat bug protectors from the early / mid 80's? I saw one of those get a chunk blown out from muzzle blast. Also know a guy who shot a hole in his buddies tonneau cover while shooting at a prairie dog. Line of sight different than path of flight. Both 22-250's.

[runfiverun]

BTW it's good to see you posting again Brad.

[wmitty]

birdadly

If using the check seater causes the meplats to deform, your alloy is too soft.

[newton]

I cant help you with 22-250, but I am casting the RCBS boolit for my 223.

I decided to make up a like #2 clone, because usually I just use WW or just about anything really, but figured I better be more precise with the smaller boolit. I also noticed in the mold case, the RCBS instructions say they base the weight and diameter of their bullet from a certain alloy. A more pure lead alloy will give heavier boolits and smaller diameter, and a harder alloy will give lighter boolits and a larger diameter.

My recipe is from this page:

http://www.lasc.us/castbulletnotes.htm

I did 5lbs WW and 2lbs Lino. I have very few rejects using this and fill out is great. I only weighed them after gas checks and powder coat was on, but the span is quite minimal. Not sure if its because the boolit fills out so well or if its something else. 57.1-57.6 is what I measured so far of well over 100 boolits. Most fall at the 57.3-57.4 mark. I don't have any issues with the boolit deforming during sizing either.

I'd say maybe take a look at your alloy. I know that softer is what most want with a hunting boolit, but I am not sure that harder is not just as good when it comes to these smaller boolits. I shot a squirrel with mine out of my .223 going right around 2000 fps, and it almost looked like the boolit had exploded/broken apart. I know it did some significant damage, and the squirrel did not move a lick.

[birdadly]

Shoot, I guess i can start over with a harder alloy and less tin. I don't think I've ever read that i shouldn't have more SN than SB, but this alloy surely did. I should have tried to break my pewter into a smaller piece... I'll save this alloy for use when i start casting pistol again and PC them. Did the pewter really soften this too much? or can i simply not do 50/50 (and maybe .25# pewter) for this small of a bullet.

They're dropping between .225 and .226 mostly, FYI.

Is it odd the mold came with the top punch that it did? Should i be using one that isn't rounded on the inside?

run, it's good to be back. Been a busy and tough 2 years. no casting no reloading no shooting...

I've been invited to go coyote hunting with my GF's brother whom I'm just getting to know better and really think it'd be ****** if I can take one with a bullet/reload i made myself! (as he doesn't do any of this stuff)

Thanks again folks! -Brad

[Camba]

I get good results with my 223 rem and my 5.7x28 bolt action and contender rifle barrel respectively, using the RCBS 225-055-fn mold.
I keep my velocities between 1800 - 2000 fps for both.
The 5.7x28 contender rifle is by far my favorite because of the amount of powder (very little) I use to get the velocities and accuracy I want.

[birdadly]

Hi fellas. I didn't recast these little buggers, but I decided to toughen them up with some PC and still give them a try. So i made a jig and I think they turned out well! I set the GC's on by hand and ran them thru a LEE 225 sizing die.

So... first rifle reloads I'm ever doing on my own (had help once before)... I have a new Hornady 2-die set. I lubed the cases and the first de-primed/re-sized and seemed perfect. The second round created the picture below, apparently bending the spindle; I don't recall putting that much pressure on it! So I took the spindle out, de-capped w/a universal de-capper, and sized w/out the spindle.

1. is that ok since I will be using a 22 M die to flare the mouth?
2. after sizing, a few measure too long compared to the max length in the book, so do i use the M die, measure again and THEN trim?
3. does anyone know if these PC'd rounds will still be okay (if they shoot ok) to hunt with? or is the coating too tough?

Thanks a bunch. -Brad
160806

[whisler]

Looks like you hit the bottom of the case with decapping pin, possibly you had an off-center flash hole or the case not straight in the shell holder.

I would trim after sizing but before the M die.

As to suitability of boolits for hunting, I don't PC so will let someone else answer that.

[birdadly]

Yeah, that spindle thing was definitely my fault. I believe it's made so that doesn't happen, but I was having a difficult time finding the perfect tightness for it, either the spindle was too loose and didn't stay put... or apparently too tight, like this.

Anyway, I'm sorry for asking these questions fellas, re-reading them, they do sound a bit rudimentary... BUT, I'm a freaking worry-wart. I research and ask too many questions with everything I do in life. I have a bit of an anxiety issue and believe me, the questions annoy more people than just you :)

whisler, before you replied, I took it upon myself to go ahead with what I felt was right, so (unfortunately) did the opposite of what you said. I used the M die, then trimmed them all. The bullet looks to fit nicely (hopefully to a good depth into the brass), so I believe/hope them to be ok.

I like posting pics, mostly because this is so cool for me still. It's the first time I got to use a trimmer that I traded with someone here for probably 2 years ago! It was real nice to work with.

Now a funny part, so I'm ready for primer, powder and bullet... and I can't find my 10,000+ primers! I don't recall unpacking them when I moved 15 months ago and this is the first I noticed! Yikes! I have some looking to do tonight :)

Thanks for everything. -Brad

[birdadly]

I was hoping my next post would be pics of my targets, but I'm stuck again. I'm trying to find an OAL and these range from 2.148 to 2.323 and they chamber quite hard (i forget, the longest might not have closed the bolt), or at least the bolt closes noticeably harder than a factory round. That's not normal, right? If not, is it possible this bullet just won't work in my gun?

Also I think I have to start over. If my Seating die puts that little circle on the nose just from seating the bullet... my lead must be too soft like you guys said; I was hoping to at least try these.

The silver lead round shows the horizontal markings the bullet gets from trying to chamber it.

Thanks in advance. -Brad

[wmitty]

Do you have a piece of fired brass which will allow one of your boolits to be pushed into the neck and held loose enough to slide back into the case as you close the bolt? This will give you the o.a.l. with the nose just touching the leade, which is where I'd start with load development. The mark on the ogive from the bullet seater depends on case neck tension; and the boolits might work fine. Shoot a few and let us in on the results.

[floydboy]

You can take a hacksaw blade and cut one of you case necks lengthwise down to where the shoulder begins. squeeze the neck tight enough to hold your boolit pretty tight. seat your boolit intentionally too far out. Carefully chamber it, close the bolt and carefully eject it. Measure it and repeat a few times until your sure the measurement is correct. This is your maximum cartridge length. Make up a dummy round and try chambering it. It may be too tight to close the bolt. Shorten this cartridge by .010 and try again. If it closes easily you know you are very close to just touching the lands. most people like to start just touching the lands and shorten the length from there if needed.



I had a savage with a 14 twist barrel I worked with a few years ago. Used air cooled WW alloy. I could get MOA less than 50% of the time. usually 1.5 to 2 inch groups. I strive for minute of blackbird and this wasn't cutting it so moved on to a 222 and did much better. Good luck. 22-250 isn't the easiest to get to shoot cast real well. Some have had good luck. Most seem to have less than spectacular results.

Floyd

[birdadly]

SUCCESS!!! I swear there won't be ANY questions in this post!!!

Here is a pic of my first time out with these, after all the frustration (aka "learning"). This is my 15 and 16 grains of 5744 groups. I also did 14.5, 17 and 18 but they weren't as good.

2 reloading things I had to figure out:

I covered a piece of sized brass in black sharpie and tried to chamber it, found that the shoulder area was being scuffed up while not chambering. This told someone else online that it wasn't truly being FL sized.

My Hornady FL size die instructions say to turn it down to contact the shell holder, then tighten. Others had this issue and were told to give it an 1/8 to 1/4 turn further down after it touches. I did this and MY SIZED BRASS CHAMBERED!!!!

But, then after making 5 rounds I tried chambering them and they didn't go... geesh! Turns out the opening the M die made needed to be brought in a bit, so i set the seater die a bit lower and then... MY FINISHED ROUNDS CHAMBERED!!!

I imagine that means I crimped them slightly, but I guess if accuracy is okay, that's ok because at some point I may hunt with these.

It put a big smile on my face and gave me a sense of accomplishment and relief. And then I got to shoot them today, not even knowing if they'd hit paper! And then to find out they didn't do too badly!! Ahhh, I learned not only from you fine fellows, but also (probably how most of you did it in the first place)... by personal trial and error, research and not giving up :)

So once again, THANK YOU! -Brad

[Jim..47]

I've used a 55 grain cast boolit for the .223 and 22-250 on groundhogs with great success. MY alloy was straight ACWW with a gas check. I usually cast a few days before checking and lube/sizing the bullets. I found that I saved a LOT of time by tumble lubing (some people do NOT like the FROG SNOT!). I worked up some loads to around 2500 fps with decent accuracy in a couple of my guns. The loads were definetely NOT for ANY gun of the same caliber though. I have a 14" TC Contender that refused to group with any cast bullet. The loads did not work in some of my guns, BUT were very good in another of same caliber. I tried some Linotype alloy that seemed better for all the .22's I have/had but they penciled thru the critters and let them get back into their holes.

What is ACWW? melt mix etc.?

2500 FPS with tumble lube. You have my attention! I've never tumble lubed and really don't even know, but I don't want to steel this thread. I can start another when its better weather to cast.

[Jim..47]

-Brad

Great Brad. Congratulations on your success. Do you have any idea what your velocity is?

[dondiego]

ACWW= Air Cooled Wheel Weights.......usually refers to the clip on type.

[birdadly]

Thanks Jim. I haven't invested in a chronograph yet. Just guessing by the same weight bullet in the books, maybe around 2,100 fps. I didn't clean the barrel yet but looking down it I see nothing but smoothness. These I guess we're pretty soft lead and powder coated. -Brad

[SSGOldfart]

Hi fellas. I didn't recast these little buggers, but I decided to toughen them up with some PC and still give them a try. So i made a jig and I think they turned out well! I set the GC's on by hand and ran them thru a LEE 225 sizing die.

So... first rifle reloads I'm ever doing on my own (had help once before)... I have a new Hornady 2-die set. I lubed the cases and the first de-primed/re-sized and seemed perfect. The second round created the picture below, apparently bending the spindle; I don't recall putting that much pressure on it! So I took the spindle out, de-capped w/a universal de-capper, and sized w/out the spindle.

1. is that ok since I will be using a 22 M die to flare the mouth?
2. after sizing, a few measure too long compared to the max length in the book, so do i use the M die, measure again and THEN trim?
3. does anyone know if these PC'd rounds will still be okay (if they shoot ok) to hunt with? or is the coating too tough?

Thanks a bunch. -Brad
160806
Brad the pc shouldn't hurt the Boolits for hunting,I'm also a 22-250 fan.
My FIL had a model 70 Winchester in 22-250 back about mid-60's I put a crease in the hood of my 49 Ford flat
bed shooting ground hogs but that's a long story,I hope the OP will keep trying with his casting and loading,lots and lots of good advice in this thread:cbpour:please keep us updated on this subject

[Handgunr]

birdadly,
If you truly know the hardness of your alloy, you can push those rounds up to some amazing speeds for cast bullets. I just posted it on another thread, but if you use the equation of "? BHN x 1422", you can come to a working pressure for your alloy. Picking a powder like W748, which gives higher velocities with lower pressures, you can easily find a load that will push cast bullets (without destroying their accuracy) up to velocities around the 2500 fps range (or above).........as I said, depending on your alloy of course.

I've had the Lyman 55gr. gas checked round for years and haven't spent a lot of time with it to be honest. Maybe this year I can do more experimenting, who knows......good read guys.


Bob

[birdadly]

Bob thanks for the info. I plan to look for your thread after this post. I know my alloy so for BHN I can go off the alloy calculator estimate. I'm really a novice regarding velocities, pressures, etc. but I want/need to do more learning so I can someday say that I actually know what all this means, and not just that i make a bullet, pull the trigger and look at my targets!

I have a pic of my newest target and I really don't know how much better I could expect! I made 8-shot groups, only changing the amount of powder (5744), at 100 yards, from a rest with minimal wind and sunny-blue skies. Bullets were from previous casting (50% pure, 50% coww and 11oz of pewter), but different color PC (es gun).

So there's 8 shots here... I hope. I have a close-up, hoping one of you will say Yes! there's definitely 8 shots there!!! :) This was on an 18 x 22" piece of card board, so if the 8th shot isn't in this group... that means it was WAY off. I checked my barrel before making the next shot, just in case! I really think there are 2 in the top-left spot.

I still could go .1 and .2 grains different on either side of this group, but as far as everything else, I guess I don't see any reason to change, for now at least. This was meant to be a hunting alloy, but there's no reason it can't be my everyday range alloy if it shoots this good, so I think.

Any who, just wanted to post a new pic :) -Brad

[4719dave]

With that 22-250 ide bet ww plus some tin water dropped is going to be your best bet .Did you slug your barrel ?

[Handgunr]

Birdadly,

Very welcome........Hell, I wouldn't sneeze at those groups at all.....damn good for 8 rounds of cast. More than likely, based on the group and the space around it, the 8th one went through the center not touching paper. To be honest, I wouldn't change a thing.........but as casters and loaders, I know that will never happen.....lol.....we always gotta tweak stuff.

What was the BHN on your alloy btw ?.......

Bob

[birdadly]

Hi fellas. I didn't slug the barrel. It's a new rifle so my plan was to try a .225 sizer and hope it's what it needed. If results were poor, or I had leading I'd slug it at that time.

Per the alloy calculator, I believe the estimated BHN to be about 11.2 -Brad

[GONRA]

GONRA's curious about the inital birdally post.
Picture shows the wrong top punch!
(Maybe this was discussed, if so, just delete this post. Thanx.)

[Jim..47]

Bob thanks for the info. I plan to look for your thread after this post. I know my alloy so for BHN I can go off the alloy calculator estimate. I'm really a novice regarding velocities, pressures, etc. but I want/need to do more learning so I can someday say that I actually know what all this means, and not just that i make a bullet, pull the trigger and look at my targets!

I have a pic of my newest target and I really don't know how much better I could expect! I made 8-shot groups, only changing the amount of powder (5744), at 100 yards, from a rest with minimal wind and sunny-blue skies. Bullets were from previous casting (50% pure, 50% coww and 11oz of pewter), but different color PC (es gun).

So there's 8 shots here... I hope. I have a close-up, hoping one of you will say Yes! there's definitely 8 shots there!!! :) This was on an 18 x 22" piece of card board, so if the 8th shot isn't in this group... that means it was WAY off. I checked my barrel before making the next shot, just in case! I really think there are 2 in the top-left spot.

I still could go .1 and .2 grains different on either side of this group, but as far as everything else, I guess I don't see any reason to change, for now at least. This was meant to be a hunting alloy, but there's no reason it can't be my everyday range alloy if it shoots this good, so I think.

Any who, just wanted to post a new pic :) -Brad

You have 8 shots there. The 8th shot is in that cluster. Very good target! :bigsmyl2: