Dumb Powder charge/weight question...

[ShooterAZ]

I'm still in the learning curve guys, so please bear with me! I see powder charges listed by grains. My powder measure does not throw the weight it shows on the charge bars on it. Should I adjust it so it is actually throwing the correct charge by weight (not volume)? :veryconfu Sorry for all the dumb questions...

[Petrol & Powder]

Not sure I understand your question. What weight markings on the charge bar are you referring to?

The bottom line is you want a specific charge weight.

[ShooterAZ]

The marks/lines (graduations) on my powder measure indicating volume...80 grains, 90 grains etc. The question is should I adjust for actual weight instead of volume indicated by the lines on the powder measure. Does that make sense?

[NSB]

This is a question related to muzzle loading. You DO NOT measure black powder or black powder substitutes by actual weight, you measure by volume. It's confusing since everyone uses a volumetric measure that says it's measuring in grains when in fact it is not. If you actually put the powder on a scale,it will not be accurate. If your measure says you're pouring 90 grains and you want to use 90 grains, just use what your black powder measure says is 90 grains and don't actually weigh it. Same if you're using 70, 80, 90, 100, etc. I'm not sure how this practice ever got started but that's the way it works. Probably because the old time mountain men didn't carry a scale around in their possibles bag.

[Petrol & Powder]

Assuming we're talking about smokeless powders:

I don't know what powder measure you have but most of the markings do not indicate a weight but are rather just reference markers so that you can quickly get the measure in the ball park. You ALWAYS check the amount thrown with a scale and adjust accordingly. The marks just help you to get close to your goal. So for example if the powder measure is set at 90 and that gives you the required weight with a specific powder, it is easier to get close to that same weight the next time you use that powder. You will still fine tune to achieve the desired weight.

[ShooterAZ]

We are talking about Black Powder, as this is the muzzle-loading forum

[mooman76]

Not a dumb question at all. It actually come up allot from new ML shooters. Consistency is the key. If you measure say 70 but actually throws 68 or 72 it doesn't matter. Your mark of 70 may shoot the best so that's what you want. Small deviations of 1 or 2 gr with BP make little to no noticeable difference for the average shooter. You really can't adjust it anyway. What I mean is different grains of powder, ff or fff will measure different as well as different brands of powder or powder subs. Pyrodex is 25% lighter than real BP but measures(approximately) the same by volume. Some people actually do weigh their own powder but very few and unless you are a bench shooter, it isn't practical or necessary.

There are also a few people that have smokeless powder muzzle loaders.

[ShooterAZ]

Volume...not weight right. I asked because there was a fairly large discrepancy between the two when I actually weighed it on the scale. The scale indicates a lower charge measured in grains.

[Petrol & Powder]

We are talking about Black Powder, as this is the muzzle-loading forum

10-4 but I wasn't sure if that's what you were talking about. Yes, with BP volume is key. With smokeless weight is key.

[Plastikosmd]

Volume, the weight will change with humidity and many more factors. As you have noted the actual weight is lower than the volume. Using weight is how new shooter end up with a much stiffer/dangerous.

[ShooterAZ]

Thanks for the replies...I will get this figured out. I'm enjoying the learning aspect of this, and even more so the shooting aspect. Surprisingly, this is way more fun than I expected.

[ShooterAZ]

10-4 but I wasn't sure if that's what you were talking about. Yes, with BP volume is key. With smokeless weight is key.

Sorry if that sounded snarky...it wasn't my intent! Thanks for the help.

[waksupi]

I'm still in the learning curve guys, so please bear with me! I see powder charges listed by grains. My powder measure does not throw the weight it shows on the charge bars on it. Should I adjust it so it is actually throwing the correct charge by weight (not volume)? :veryconfu Sorry for all the dumb questions...


Just pay attention to what your BP measure tells you. Don't go confusing yourself by weighing it!

[ShooterAZ]

Volume, Volume, Volume. I got confused because I have been weighing smokeless charges for the past 40 years.

[mooman76]

What exactly are you measuring? BP, ff, fff, Sub like Black MZ, Pyrodex R, P or what?

[idahoron]

I am going to be the only one to say both? I developed my load by measuring by volume. After I found the best load I weighed that volume measurement. 80 grains in my powder measure weighs an actual 64.5 grains. I weigh out 64.5 grains for most of my shooting for groups. When I am shooting off shooting sticks getting ready for hunting I use the measure, but I check it regularly to be sure it is still throwing 64.5 grains weighed.
A man started to using my load in his gun and called me saying his gun didn't shoot right. I found out that his measure was only throwing 57 weighed grains. I had him adjust his measure until it hit 64.5 weighed grains. His rifle went to shooting my load exactly like I knew it would.

[pietro]

.

FWIW, I seriously doubt that our forefathers/pioneers overthought their charges of BP (the only propellant powder available to them) , and just adjusted their loads until the gun started to throw unburnt powder out of the muzzle (waste not, want not).

When they wanted more power they changed to a larger bore to obtain the power they wanted/needed - just like hot roding.


.

[triggerhappy243]

I think idahoron should put on a class on how to get the most out of their muzzleloader, so we can spank the inline guys in their own game.

[OverMax]

You can thank the makers of substitute powders for that quandary you find yourself in. FWIW: Always measure loose B/P powder or its Substitute no mater who's by Volume.
Once you find that loose Volume Charge that your rifle likes and you intend to use. Simply weigh that measured amount on a powder scale. Than you know its >grain< weight.
Quite often you can confuse everybody with that littl bit of additional knowledge most haven't got or forgot about. (Volume = Grains)
But than. Yes indeed you can astound or stun others knowing the next mathematical formula: _Volume = Drams. And so it goes on & on. LOL

[LuckyDog]

True Black Powder should be done based on weight. Read the "make your own bp" sticky. The granulation and compression (corning) causes different density.

Several members in that post found their homemade bp worked just as well as commercial when measured by weight. The volume was a awful lot different though. Sometimes much as twice. Their powder measure might say 120 grains, but the scale said 60.

I read somewhere that the standard density was set with Goex FFg many years ago.
Weight=Volume*Density
So different manufactures, grades, and lots will vary density, hence your volume measure will probably not match the indicated weight. But it's close.

I don't, won't carry a scale to the range. :) I see several guys with a tip of antler drilled out for a measure. No markings there.

Find a brand and volume that works for your rifle. Powder measure don't come with NIST certified calibrations. :) once you find your sweet spot, record the brand, granulation, and scale weight. You can reference that when you need change something due to availability.

Day to day shooting, just measure the correct volume of your favorite powder and you're good to go.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Grains are weight, 7000 of them making a pound, and have no official standing as a measure of volume. But most shooters find there is no point in weighing all their charges. So they use measures or flasks which measure the volume. It is quite important for the user of smokeless powder to check the weight of a new load with his scale, because with smokeless a very small variation from what is intended can be dangerous. With black powder it is less critical.

Some measures are graduated in cubic centimetres, to facilitate resetting after doing other loads. Yours is graduated with a typical amount of grains it will throw, but this can only be an approximation, varying for different grain size, manufacturing processes etc. Weigh a few loads when the measure is new, and the chances are that you will find its fake-weight graduations accurate enough to dispense with the scale forever... as long as your powder is black.

Something to be very careful about if you use old flasks or books is the dram weight measurement. The trouble is, there are two of them. The dram in the avoirdupoids system is a sixteenth of an ounce, or 27.32 grains. 3 drams was a common shotgun load. But a dram in the apothecaries' weight system is 60 grains. In the UK we differentiate by spelling the latter "drachm", but I believe Americans don't.

[LuckyDog]

There is also a volumetric dram. Also 1/16 of an oz.

Gotta love it.😝

[Petrol & Powder]

Sorry if that sounded snarky...it wasn't my intent! Thanks for the help.

I didn't take it as snarky at all. No worries, just wasn't sure about the question.

[Boogieman]

In the Black Powder Loading Manual.,Sam Fadala tested 2 adjustable BP measures to see how close to the volume compaired to the weight of powder thrown . He checked every 10 grains from the min. to max. With fg ,ffg, & fffg. the max. deviation was 1.5gr. (at the top end) ffffg it was 3gr. With THIS 2 measures the thrown weights were very close to the volume marks

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Pretend for a moment the grains were 1/16in. or 1/10in. spheres. If you filled all the space to the end of the universe with them, the ratio of powder to empty space would be the same for any grain size. But if they were fitted into a given length of 1/10in. tube, the weight of those two powders in a given length of that tube would be very different. The bigger the quantity being measured, and the nearer its cavity comes to being as broad as it is long, the less the weight it throws will vary for different granulation sizes.

[rfd]

it's simple and easy ...

black powder muzzleloaders - VOLUME measure of real black powder
black powder cartridge rifles - WEIGHT measure of real black powder

smokeless and subs do NOT apply.

[LuckyDog]

Awe, come on RFD.....

That makes it too simple. :target_smiley:

:Luvcastboolits::cast_boolits:

[fouronesix]

For muzzleloader charging I use a simple VOLUME measure of some type- either adjustable or fixed. But I know how much the black powder charges WEIGH.

For high pressure smokeless centerfire rifle cartridge charging I use a VOLUME measure that drops into a pan. It is then trickle WEIGHED on a balance beam scale and dropped into the cartridge.

For black powder cartridge charging I use a VOLUME measure that drops down a tube and into the cartridge. But I know how much the black powder charges WEIGH.

For most low pressure smokeless cartridge charging I use a VOLUME measure that drops into the cartridge. But I know how much the charges WEIGH.

For most smokeless handgun cartridge charging I use a VOLUME measure that drops into the cartridge. But I know how much the charges WEIGH.

[dondiego]

Once the weight of a volume is established/verified, it is just easier to use that volume for loading.

[Motor]

The black powder section of my Hodgdon reloading manual does have a chart showing volume vs weight of black powder. Typically we use volume because that is what our measure is calibrated with.

Some people do load by weight not volume but and this is the "BIG BUT", you can't use the same data because as you found out they are not the same.

You shouldn't dispense black powder with most powder dispensers made for smokeless powder either. There are dispensers made for black powder.

Motor

[koehlerrk]

You shouldn't dispense black powder with most powder dispensers made for smokeless powder either. There are dispensers made for black powder.

Motor

Correct sir. Ye Holy Black if very easy to ignite, a static spark is sufficient. So tools for handling it are non sparking, and usually made of brass.

[fouronesix]

Static sparks and powder ignition…. hhhm. An incandescent spark (particle) of iron is one thing. A spark of electricity is something else entirely.
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/electric_ignition/eignition.html
An understanding of the concept of "specific heat" is required to understand the issue.

[hpdrifter]

The marks/lines (graduations) on my powder measure indicating volume...80 grains, 90 grains etc. The question is should I adjust for actual weight instead of volume indicated by the lines on the powder measure. Does that make sense?

those graduation correlate to what black powder would weigh at that volume, or very close.

[hpdrifter]

In the Black Powder Loading Manual.,Sam Fadala tested 2 adjustable BP measures to see how close to the volume compaired to the weight of powder thrown . He checked every 10 grains from the min. to max. With fg ,ffg, & fffg. the max. deviation was 1.5gr. (at the top end) ffffg it was 3gr. With THIS 2 measures the thrown weights were very close to the volume marks

one reason to reduce 3f loads from 2f loads

[Omnivore]

Don't fall into the trap of making it complicated. The grain is a measure of weight only. It is one seven thousandth of a pound. Or rather, a pound was originally defined as the weight of "seven thousand plump grains of wheat". That goes back a bit in time as you might imagine.

We talk in real grains for real black powder, and a volume-for-volume substitution when using substitute powders. That's all there there ever was to it.

It makes sense, because that way you can use the same field measure whether you're using real black powder or a substitute powder. It's simplicity itself, and yet for some reason it confuses the heck out of people. Don't be confused.


YOU DID NOT SPECIFY WHETHER YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT REAL BLACK OR A BLACK POWDER SUBSTITUTE - THERE IS A DIFFERENCE IN THE ANSWERS.

Usually the factory powder measures are pretty close, or "close enough for jazz" as the saying goes, but it can be interesting to use a scale to compare one company's measure to another, or to see how consistently you can throw your charges from the same measure.

You'd need some real black powder to weigh, to tell if your measure is accurate. I've compared the densities of several brands of real black, and although there are differences, they are not great.

Anyway, chances are that you can throw three charges of the same powder from the same measure, and they'll all weigh different by several grains, but still close enough. That's the way it is unless you're using a precision, mechanical powder measure such as for cartridge loading (but they're supposed to be rated for black powder, for safety reasons, so be careful) I use a Lee Perfect Powder Measure, for example, when loading my paper cartridges at home for revolvers. It's easier and faster, and gives very consistent throws, compared to a spout on a flask or to one of those adjustable field measures.

So there are several ways to skin a cat but let's not ever be confused as to the definition of a grain.

[big bore 99]

It may help to get a Lee dipper set and use the reference card supplied with it. I just accept it and don't wonder why.