10 shot groups

[Hannibal]

Curiosity question : How many readers of this post shoot a 10 shot group @ 100 yds on 3 different days/occasions to determine the accuracy of their rifle/load/techniques? Ya gotta count all 10. No cold/clean bore foulers. Not 11. 10 and only 10. Every one measured for group size. For the record, I do.

[dtknowles]

Nope not me. I shoot foulers, I shoot five shot groups. I shoot way more than 3.

Tim

[fast ronnie]

I have shot 10 shot groups, but prefer to use 5 shot and cool between groups to minimize throat erosion.

[Hannibal]

Nope not me. I shoot foulers, I shoot five shot groups. I shoot way more than 3.

Tim

I understand. Nothing at all wrong with MORE than 3 outings. But I still shoot 10 round groups and count them all.
My findings do not support those regularly found regarding accuracy claims for factory rifles. So this is a 'fact finding mission' for me, if you will.

[Hick]

I shoot ten shots for each step in a ladder and count them all, but to try to randomize the factors I shoot five of one load at one target, then five of the next load at a second target, and so on, then come back and shoot the second five of each group at the original target. This makes my groups bigger, but is more representative of what would happen as the day goes on or the temperature of the barrel changes (and the fouling). My shot groups are bigger this way, but I can be sure that what groups I get I can get under any conditions.

[Hannibal]

I have shot 10 shot groups, but prefer to use 5 shot and cool between groups to minimize throat erosion.

How long do you allow for cooling? I find that many factory sporter weight barrels require that one waits until barrel heat is essentially indetectable with the palm of the hand. Turns into a tedious process taking upwards of an hour. Groups are likely larger than they should be due to this.

[tygar]

FWIW I shoot 3 shot groups when starting to test a load. If all are good, I may try 3 again but generally try 5. If 5 are good then I will repeat the 5, sometimes multiple times. I only shoot 10 shot groups after 5 shot groups in bench rest, tactical, F class, etc rifles have shot .5 MOA at 500yds as these will then go on to 1k range & then not often. Hunting rifles are only done in 5 shot groups max, even though I have a couple that I also shoot out to 1k. Too hard on skinny barrels.

[M-Tecs]

In my NRA Highpower rifles I always shoot 10 shot groups since that is what the rapid fire is. For these I start with a fouled bore. For hunting rifles I always start with a clean bore and I shoot 1, 3, 5 or 10 shot groups depending on how the rifle will be used.

[Lloyd Smale]

when i get down to two or three loads to choose from i shoot a 5 shot group of each on at least 2 different days and don't allow for any fliers.

[lotech]

Perhaps another perspective worthy of consideration...

Multiple five-shot groups, with time allowance for barrel cooling only between groups (not shots) would be at least as good an indication of average accuracy potential as a ten-shot group where the barrel is allowed to cool between shots. Several small, round five-shot groups would provide evidence that all is right with load, gun, sights, and shooter's bench technique.

[dtknowles]

Yes, are we testing the gun, the load, a bullet, the shooter, a scope installation, bedding change, new lube, new alloy. I when I was testing a new bullet in my .22 hornet and playing with seating depth and bullet diameter. I had 20 rounds of each configuration, shot 4 five shot groups. I then overlayed the targets so that I could measure the three 10 shot groups, you ask how can you get 3, 10 shot groups from 20 rounds, shots 1 thru 10, shots 5 thru 15 and shots 10 thru 20.

One thing that I learned doing this is that when I measured the 10 shot groups there were only a couple shots that determined the group size. I would not call them flyers they were just the ones that were farthest from the point of aim. There might be some 5 shot groups without a shot that opened up the group but rarely was there a 10 shot group without a shot that did. 5 shot groups were running just over an inch with the best load but the 10 shot groups were and inch and a half or a little more.

Tim

[dtknowles]

Barrel cooling between shots or groups was not required and actually a cold barrel would sometimes cause a flyer. I started firing a fouling shot after the cold range to check targets.

Tim

[imashooter2]

My findings do not support those regularly found regarding accuracy claims for factory rifles. So this is a 'fact finding mission' for me, if you will.

I hear an awful lot about under moa lever actions. I've never seen one at any range I've ever been to though. :-)

I generally shoot five shot groups since the local range where I do most of my shooting has a five in the gun maximum rule. I do average multiple groups to get what I consider to be the guns accuracy. How many trips that might take varies quite a bit. I will also throw out groups where I make gross errors in technique. That isn't anything with a flyer, that is Dale yanked that one off the paper. I'm looking for the potential of the gun, I already know my shortcomings.

[M-Tecs]

I hear an awful lot about under moa lever actions. I've never seen one at any range I've ever been to though. :-)



Come up to MN and I will show you (at the range) a Marlin Guide gun in 45/70 that will. I have several lever guns that I would not put money on in a 3 MOA bet but the Guide gun I will put a $100.00 for five shot 1 MOA groups anytime.

[imashooter2]

Oh, I believe there are a few out there. But on the internet, you can't swing a dead cat without knocking over a dozen of them. Call me a skeptic. :-)

[dtknowles]

Come up to MN and I will show you (at the range) a Marlin Guide gun in 45/70 that will. I have several lever guns that I would not put money on in a 3 MOA bet but the Guide gun I will put a $100.00 for five shot 1 MOA groups anytime.

We talking about a 5 shot group measured center to center of the two most widely space holes under 1 moa on demand not average of many groups? That is awesome. Did it come from the factory like that?

Tim

[chutesnreloads]

Barrel cooling between shots or groups was not required and actually a cold barrel would sometimes cause a flyer. I started firing a fouling shot after the cold range to check targets.

TimJust why I keep a target and shoot 1st shot into it on as many different days as possible for all my hunting rifles.A couple will have a seperate group for that 1st shot from a cold barrel and I want that shot to hit where I aim when hunting.Seldom need a 2nd shot in the field but its nice to know what the rifle is going to do

[M-Tecs]

We talking about a 5 shot group measured center to center of the two most widely space holes under 1 moa on demand not average of many groups?

Yes, single shot or levered from the magazine. I know it will do it from a cold barrel to hot but I don't remember it it needs a fouling shot or not. This is one of the first SS Guide guns with the ports. It predates the 450 Marlin. When the 450 came out they stopped porting the 45/70 barrels. Wish is was not ported but the way it shoots I will never sell it.



Did it come from the factory like that?

Tim

Only thing done was a trigger job and mounting a 2.5 x 8 Leupold. Only conditions on the bet is needs to be a reasonably calm day (under 12 mph).

[tdoyka]

since most of my rifle shooting is done with a tc encore, i put into three catagories.

1. three shots at 100 yards - deer/bear(6.5 creedmoor, 444 marlin)
2. five shots at 100 yards - groundhogs, foxes....(20 vartarg, 22-250ai)
3. 10 shots at 100 yards - targets(20 vartarg, 22-250ai, 6.5 creedmoor)

i like to keep my barrels cool. so the 10 shots is rather time consuming, so i'm lucky that i have a 100 yard target of my own.

all of my barrels(MGM barrels) can go around 1/2" or better at 100 yards, esp the vartarg and the ai(.1-.3" at 100 yards with 5 and 10 shot groups). my 444 goes 3/8 - 1/2" at 100 yards(3 shots) using the 275gr ranch dog with rel7 while the 6.5cm gets .3 - .5" at 100 yards(3 and 10 shots) with 120gr ballistic tips and superformance.

[tygar]

I hear an awful lot about under moa lever actions. I've never seen one at any range I've ever been to though. :-)

I generally shoot five shot groups since the local range where I do most of my shooting has a five in the gun maximum rule. I do average multiple groups to get what I consider to be the guns accuracy. How many trips that might take varies quite a bit. I will also throw out groups where I make gross errors in technique. That isn't anything with a flyer, that is Dale yanked that one off the paper. I'm looking for the potential of the gun, I already know my shortcomings.

My 450 Marlin would shot 1" at 100 with Wild West peeps back in the 90s when I could still see good enough but the best lever I've had was a Savage 99, 18000 serno somewhere in the teens, 1918, I think. It would consistently shoot 1" with 130s & would still shoot 2" at 200 with tang mounted peep site. One of those "kick myself in the az" for selling it guns.

[fast ronnie]

I usually wait about 10 minutes or so between groups. FWIW my newest one is a 30-06 #5 Shilen on an Argentine action. I don't completely cool, but try to let some of the heat out. I also leave the bolt open while doing so. One other thing, I don't use real hot loads. No sense in destroying a barrel just for numbers (velocity). I want repeatable accuracy for the life of the barrel.



How long do you allow for cooling? I find that many factory sporter weight barrels require that one waits until barrel heat is essentially indetectable with the palm of the hand. Turns into a tedious process taking upwards of an hour. Groups are likely larger than they should be due to this.

[C. Latch]

For things that are cheap to shoot, easy to shoot (meaning light recoil) and not grossly overbored, I shoot ten-shot groups for load testing and multiples for experimentation's sake.

For things that kick hard and are more expensive to shoot, I stick with five shot groups. I'm well aware of the statistical weakness of 5-shot groups, I just don't really care. I don't want to shoot a .300 weatherby ten times in a row. I don't even want to shoot a 30-06 that much, from a bench.

I don't have endless hours to spend at a range. My range is in my yard but I'm doing good to get 30 minutes at the bench per session. Too much other stuff going on in life.

[JWFilips]

10 shot groups always: Otherwise you're fooling yourself

[toallmy]

Multiple 5 shot groups , some times it will add up to 50+ rounds when I am at the end of load development. Then I will trust it , but that is with jackets. Ashamed to admit it , but haven't taken the step of cast in the long guns yet. By the way I haven't bought a box of store bought riffle ammo since the mid 80".

[dtknowles]

I usually wait about 10 minutes or so between groups. FWIW my newest one is a 30-06 #5 Shilen on an Argentine action. I don't completely cool, but try to let some of the heat out. I also leave the bolt open while doing so. One other thing, I don't use real hot loads. No sense in destroying a barrel just for numbers (velocity). I want repeatable accuracy for the life of the barrel.

I can't say this applies to your rifle and I don't know much about that action and its strength but some benchrest guns shoot their best groups at pressures that are over what some people consider maximum. The idea that handloads are most accurate a little below the max load is just a generalization and a kind of wisdom that is maybe appropriate advice to beginners.

Tim

[dtknowles]

10 shot groups always: Otherwise you're fooling yourself

Exactly how are would I be fooling myself? If I am shooting a bench rest match that shoots 5 shot groups for the record, then practice and load tuning with 5 shot groups seems appropriate. Trying to run a condition for 10 shots when the match is just 5 is foolish.

Tim

[DeadWoodDan]

Unless I missed it; I am wondering if and how many of us use a chrony? I believe this would factor in how many shots are being taken??

[MT Gianni]

I always shoot a fouler before shooting for group. To quote the late Bruce Bannister " when did a group become less than 10 shots? It might be something but it certainly isn't a group".

[lefty o]

10 shot groups always: Otherwise you're fooling yourself

the real accuracy nuts out there would say a single 10 shot group is a joke.

[M-Tecs]

I never ceases to amaze me with this type of discussion how many folks believe there is only on right way. Depending on how you use the firearm 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10 or more may be the best method for you.

Some of the long range hunters only shoot 1 shoot groups. They start with a clean bore and fire one round at the zero distance. They clean and let the barrel fully cool and fire one more shot. It may or may not be on the same target. The point is they are mostly interested in point of impact from a clean cold barrel for the first shot.

Double rifle shooters are mostly interested in two shot groups.

Lots of big game hunter are very well served by 3 shoot groups since they almost never fire more than three shots hunting. I have a Savage 99 that shoots well for the first 5 but it walks badly as it gets hotter. 10 shot groups are of zero use with this rifle. The only way I am fooling myself is too believe that a 10 shot group would be of any use with this rifle.

Wheel guns tend to like groups based on number of chambers so they use 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 or 10 shots.

For my competition pistols I want to know if the first and the last round out of the mag shoot to the same POI as the rest so that may require a 15 or 17 shot group. For my Bull's-eye pistols it 5 shot groups.

Some of the Benchrester's only fire 5 shot groups since that is what they shoot in competition.

I shoot NRA Power across the course so I prefer 10 shoot rapid fire groups for these rifles since that equals a rapid fire string. I want to know if the barrel walks from heat. I also want to know how the first 10 shot group compares to a group shot after the barrel has fired 90 or a 100 rounds without cleaning. Normally you don't have time to clean during the match and the long range is normally at the end so the barrel has to perform with 80 or 90 rounds through it. For my long range rifles I want to know what they will do for 22 rounds fired in 22 minutes since that is how they are used in competition. For 1,000 yard it's 20 rounds for record in 30 minutes with unlimited sighters. For CMP Leg matches no sighters are allowed so you have to know cold clean bore verse cold fouled bore verse hot fouled bore. Normally you start at 200 yards than 300 yard and last 600 yards but sometimes it's reverse order. Starting with standing at 200 yards it's normally not a big deal but starting from 600 yard prone it could cost you the match.

For my prairie dog rifles I want to know what they do from cold clean to very hot and very dirty so I test accordingly.

Same for barrel cooling. The firearm gets tested the way it will be used.

The best method is what gives you the most accurate information that you need for your style of shooting.

[rking22]

What M-Tecs said !! When I shot hi power it was always 10 shot groups, but no barrel cooling and not from a clean barrel, and prone! I never discount a shot unless I called it, before looking at the spotting scope, for a process error on my part. And that only for load testing. If I am testing the rifle/me system, if I can't shoot the thing cleanly from a rest, the system dosen't work, so all shots count, always. When I shot silliwet with a revolver I shot 6 five shot groups on 6 different targets. I wanted to KNOW where the load/revolver would put a shot out of each chamber and if I needed to "avoid" a chamber. Other times I shot 5 different groups of multiple shots on targets spaced like the chickens to make sure I was shifting position correctly. Since I no longer have the drive to compete, I can't imagine doing that again. I hate shooting from a bench, so 10 shot groups for my present (non competing) use is pointless. I shoot my hunting rifles 1 shot groups over multiple days from different positions at 200 yards, then measure the group. I will not keep a rifle that continues to shoot the first shot "strange" ! Useless to me, that's the only shot that counts (for what I do). I have a 10-22 that puts the first shot 3/4 inch from the rest of the group at 50 yards. It shoots the next 9 into 5/8 at 50, but is going to be a friends range toy as I have tired of experimenting with it. Life's to short to fool with agravating toys! Once I have a load that is accurate enough to suit my purpose I am done testing the load, and on to working on my performance ( the weak link in the system).

It really does come down to what the test group is to be used for, 10 shots is more "true", 5 is almost there and 3 is good if you shoot several 3 shot groups and overlay into 9 shot group measurment. That is what I generally go to avoid my ADD nature having too much influence, and I shoot them at a longish range. 200 for rifles rather than 100 keeps me more on my toes! It's just a hobby now, so I want to have fun too!

[Fishman]

You guys think too much.

[220]

All my pistol ammo testing is 10 shot groups simply because of the number of shot and time matches are shot in.
Most of my rifle loading is for hunting, so cant see the point in 10 shot groups, 1st shot is the one that counts so have found myself going to 3 shot groups more and more.
I think multiple 3 shot groups from clean and dirty barrel over different days and weather conditions is probably the best indication for a hunting load.
If I need a 4th or 5th shot or 9 or 10 then obviously in a hunting situation I cant take advantage of the accuracy I have so how they shoot becomes irrelevant.

Moa lever guns, yeah I have one that stands up to my 3 shot groups over numerous days and distances.
Will it do it for 5, I don't know as I haven't tried, like I said if I need more than 3 then I don't need moa accuracy.
Should see the looks on peoples faces when you pull out a 30/30 and ring a 4" gong at 300 1st shot or put a sub 3" group on paper.

[Gofaaast]

It depends in the firearms purpose. For my deer rifle testing I used to shoot one round at least every other evening for a couple weeks preceding deer season to check my rifles and loads. I would get home and sit my rifles outside for at least an hour, to adjust to real conditions and fire one round. Targets were always the lid to a five gallon bucket with a 1/2" black dot sharpied in the center. I screwed the lids to posts at 200 yards (the last year I did it, I stretched it out to 350 yards) so if it rained or snowed the target did not deteriorate. After a couple weeks I had my (real world) group. I would not adjust for wind and the prevailing wind was usually a cross wind so I took a mental note of wind speed and drift. At 200 I was always under 3 inches, side to side and half that vertically. My 2 most accurate 5 shot group rifles, could never keep pace with my 25-06 sendero. My 112 savage in the same caliber could out group it if you fired a couple fouling shots first but the first shot fired was always 1-3" higher at 200 than the shots fired shortly thereafter.

Any rifle I usually shoot 5 shot groups. Pistol lets just say 100 or less. I am still learning the proper technique to become as proficient shooting pistols as I am at rifles.

[Hannibal]

You guys think too much.

On the contrary, I am QUITE interested in each shooter's techniques. If you have a rifle that only shoots well with a cold barrel, that is telling you something. Likewise, if you have a rifle that only shoots well with a warm barrel, that tells you something, too.

And if you have a barrel that shoots well cold, hot, and everything in between, you should be taking notes and asking yourself WHY.

By well I mean sub-MOA.