Perfect(balanced) cartridge for caliber?

[nekshot]

The less hair on my head the differant I am looking at life on all levels. One thing that I often muse over, what is the perfect cartridge in a caliber for its bore size. I think of speed required for bullet to perform, amount of powder to get it going, generated recoil and such. I am amazed at the easy shooting of my 7mm mauser over our 7-08's. The 257 Robt over my 25-06. The 6.5 carcano is really looking good to me against my 6.5x55 , and the 6.5-06 I just took off a gun after 40 some years. I am not judging high performance just good solid economics and proven performance. Hope to hear your input if you ever think like this!! The newer the cartridges that are coming out the smarter Good Ole Paul Mauser looks to me!

[David2011]

The 6.5s have a sweet spot for me. IMO the Carcano is not a good choice because of unreliable barrel diameters unless you're talking about recent firearms with standardized bores. Again, my opinion, the 6.5x55 loaded for modern firearms is hard to beat for performance downrange vs. recoil.

I've been amazed by the people that will take the punishment of a 7mm Mag to take 80 pound East Texas white tail deer when a 7mm Mauser would have been equally effective. The push for just 200 more fps is everywhere. I've never shot anything that would have been any more dead with a .300 Win Mag or .458 Mag than my little 6.5x55 has killed it but I shoot mostly whitetail and pigs.

David

[Hogtamer]

There's just something elegant about a 130 grn spitzer atop a long and lean .270 and so much gentler than its rough and tumble 30/06 cousin.

[runfiverun]

7X57 with 140-150 gr bullets.
it's about as balanced as you can get.

[shooter2]

For me it comes down to three.

in order of my preference: .257 Roberts, 7 mm Mauser, .308 Winchester

[TXGunNut]

To complicate your thesis I think a boolit and a j-word may very well have different "optimal" cartridges for each caliber. BP and SP further complicate things. But yes, many cartridges seem to be perfectly balanced to a given caliber under given conditions. There's truly something magical about the 44-40, the 44 Special and the 44 Mag. Same caliber, three legendary cartridges. 45 Colt is an all-time great BP cartridge, a very accurate SP plinker and a pretty awesome hi-performance SP cartridge in appropriate guns.
Yes, there are certain cartridges that seem to be almost magical in their suitability to a certain caliber but when all the variables and conditions are taken into account we realize why there are so many cartridges. Most of today's cartridges are ideal for that caliber under some conditions, understanding and predicting the conditions is the tricky part.

[brstevns]

With all the new bullets out there for reloaders the 243 Win and 6mm Rem are hard to beat. Here in MO I have killed deer with the 223 rem up the 375 H&H mag. I still find myself going back to a 243 win or a 250 Savage.

[Hick]

I'm convinced there are optimal cartridges-- but they don't always fit the intended design of the rifle. Playing with single shot loading I've discovered that the Hornady 165 FTX they make for the Marlin Express seems to perform better in my 30-30 than the Hornady 165 FTX designed for the 30-30. Unfortunately, the Marlin Express is longer and the COL that works best is too long for loading from the magazine-- I have to use it single shot. I get similar improved results with a 150 grain BT, but its too pointed for the tubular magazine.

[waksupi]

I think a person could be well served by three rifles, all based on the .308 case. .243, .308, and .358 Win.

[jmort]

The .308 case is perfectly balanced as a .338 Federal, 3200 ft lbs of energy.
The .30-06 case is perfectly balanced as a .338-06 , 3600 ft lbs of energy.
Go bigger on either one and power/energy goes down.
Go smaller, and power goes down.

[Hannibal]

Good point ^^^^^^^^^ IMHO.

This all depends on what one is trying to accomplish. If looking for J-word expansion at distances of 300+yds, one must be very careful. Many say this is not hunting, but sniping. Perhaps. But it is a skill set, none the less.

If one is a long action aficionado, I believe the same case can be made for the 26-06, 30-06 and 35 Whelen as for the .243, .308 and .358 Winchesters. One day soon, I plan to own a pair of switch barrel rifles in these exact calibers.

[Lonegun1894]

Everyone has their preferences, but for my use, I can't decide between a .357 Mag firing a 158gr SWC out of either a 4-6" revolver or a 20" Win '92 clone, a .45 Colt firing a 250-270gr SWC out of similar guns, or maybe a .30-30 or .45-70 out of the levergun of your choice. See I am no help, unless you want muzzleloader caliber choice, in which case, the answer is always something that launches a .54 round ball.

[Hickok]

I have a liking for the 7-08 and the .308 Win. Have rifles in both calibers, and can't decide which is "best." Both are excellent.

[Artful]

Interesting discussion - probably every caliber has an optimum case capacity. With todays powders you can get the same velocity out of cases smaller than the "classic" cartridge. And as I get older I like to be punished less. Lets look at a couple of calibers -
Starting with 7mm
http://kwk.us/cases.html


7mm TCU volume in H2) : 31 grains
7mm-08 Remington (R-P): 56 grains
7x57 Mauser (W-W): 59 grains
.280 Remington (R-P): 67 grains

7mm TCU based on 223 cartridge -
http://www.loaddata.com/members/search_detail.cfm?MetallicID=5449
168gr going 2252 fps
140gr going 2322 fps
115gr going 2675 fps

Lets go to a larger case 7mm-08
http://accurateshooter.net/pix/sierra708.pdf
100gr going 3300 fps
140gr going 2900 fps
168gr going 2700 fps

7x57 is next in volume but down loaded in pressure so same velocity as 7mm-08 or slightly less

280 Remington
100 gr going 3200 fps
140 gr going 2900 fps
168 gr going 2700 fps

So with current powders the optimum size is 7mm-08 as the increased case capacity didn't gain much going to 280 aka 7mm'06 - but the 7mm TCU will work well for a lot of us in closer work and cast loadings.

Let's do 35 caliber
Case Capacity
357 mag 27cc
357 max 34 cc
35 Rem. 51cc
358 WCF 57cc
35 Whelen 71cc
358 Norma Mag 88cc

38 spl
180 gr going 850 fps
158 gr going 1,000 fps
125 gr going 1,150 fps

357 mag
125 gr going 1,500 fps
158 gr going 1,250 fps
180 gr going 1,050 fps

357 max
125 gr going n/A
158 gr going 1,765fps
180 gr going 1,560fps

35 Remington
125 gr going n/a
158 gr going 2,357fps
180 gr going 2,224 fps

358 wcf
180gr going 2603 fps

35 Whelen
180gr going 2891fps

358 Norma Magnum
200 gr going 3001 fps

So in 35 caliber it looks like 35 Whelen is about perfectly balanced
but I'm happy to stop at the recoil level of 358 WCF

[dragon813gt]

I think a person could be well served by three rifles, all based on the .308 case. .243, .308, and .358 Win.

Hard to disagree w/ this. Only problem w/ the 243 is that it's overbore. The 257 Roberts is about the most perfect cartridge. It's hard to explain to someone that's never shot one. Loaded to it's full potential it's hard to beat.

[osteodoc08]

Are we talking about cartridge efficiency of internal volume vs velocity produced? There is certainly some mathematics involved. And I'm sure the answer starts with, it depends.....

To me, a balanced cartridge is one of size and velocity enough to get what I need done at the distance I'm trying to do it in. I've never had much use for über magnums. The new 26
nosler doesn't stir the soul for me.

Ive always been been a fan of the 308 case family. I started off as a young boy shooting a 243. I have since had a 7-08 which I felt was an excellent all around cartridge for up
to and including elk. I also shoot a 308.

My hunting rifle is in 30-06 but I'll likely pick up a Kimber 84M sometime this year when finances allow and it will be in 308. My only other 06 is an 03A3, P14, and M1 Garand.

I foolishly turned down a pristine 257 Bob Ruger tang safety 2 years ago and still regret it.

I I have been eying the 6.5mm class and have been investigating the 6.5 Creedmore.

[Petrol & Powder]

I have never understood the people that select a 7mm Remington magnum to hunt deer in the eastern woods. Bragging rights about the rifle is all it seems to be. Even if they had a shot across an empty field most of them lack the skill to get a hit beyond 200 yards.

There are some great cartridges out there and several have been noted on this thread.

The 7 x 57 Mauser and 7mm-08 are near the top of my list but for logistical reasons the .308win edges them out slightly. I've never cared for the longer .30-06 class cartridges and think tradition and nostalgia keep those long actions alive more than performance.
The availability of cheap .308 brass and a larger selection of newer rifles landed the .308Win above the 7mm Mauser on my list but by the slimmest of margins. Frankly, the 7mm-08 may be the perfect compromise.

[Fishman]

OP, I get what you are saying and it is an interesting exercise. I would say that it depends on what you need.

I originally bought my .300 mag for long range target shooting. I haven't been able to do that, but I find it accompanying me into the deer blind frequently. Why? Because it is extremely accurate and I don't always know what kind of shot I'm going to be presented with. I know that I'm covered with this combo, no matter what.

Now for absolute efficiency in the .30, it's hard to beat the .30 Herrett or its rimless cousin the .300 blackout. 15 -17 grains of several different powders yield a full case of powder and 1800 fps with a 150 gr cast. This is often cited as the sweet spot for cast velocity.

Interesting discussion so far.

[nekshot]

I share all your sentiments for the 308 based family. I really love the 7-08 but this fall as I was getting my new 7mm mauser barrel broken in I was shocked at the lesser felt recoil it has over our 7-08's. The rifles all weigh very close to same weight. That got me to thinking again of how and why the original designs developed. And I do thank God for the abundance of choice in each caliber, but I am returning to the more "efficient" cartridge in each caliber. I understand this is opinion based to a large degree but still interesting to muse over.

[popper]

For all around hunting/plinking at typical ranges, some variant of 300BO. Can be loaded for wide range of target terminal ballistics but not a 243 barrel burner. Low recoil, cheap on powder, etc. Definitely not a long range elk/p.d. gun most anything in between. Second choice would be 10MM. Both are efficient, effective even though not Mil/LEO choices - I'm not in either - any more.

[Blackwater]

Interesting subject and good comments all. When I think of a "balanced" ctg., I usually view that in terms of what powders I have and the performance level I want to reach for the purpose intended. That being said, when I look at a mission I want to accomplish, I tend to view that in terms of what MIGHT happen, such as seeing a huge boar unexpectedly while pig hunting as my cousin once did, or maybe a bear in bear country when you're only intending to hunt deer. Like the Boy Scouts say, it's wise to be prepared, and that includes the calibers and rifles you carry afield.

For deer, I'm with Hogtamer on the .270/130. It'll never fail unless bullet placement is pretty poor. The only thing that might be better on our little Southern whitetails is the .25/06/100 gr. Yet, my son's 6mm. Rem took over 30 deer, all with a single shot with the 85 gr. Speer BTSP, and two were just over 350 yds., too.

For big hogs that CAN, if they get a mind to, hurt you, I'd really prefer my .45/70 guide gun, or at least the .44 carbine. They're in the woods here and long shots aren't likely at all, and mostly impossible, but up close and nasty would always be a possibility. We're also getting some bears in my area now. 3 have been killed on the bypass by cars in my town, so any time I go to the swamps, I like to carry a .44 pistol, just in case. Never know when you might blunder into a sow with cubs. Not likely here, but certainly not impossible.

As to what constitutes a "balanced" ctg., it all depends on the performance level you want, and what powder you want to use to get to that level. In 7mm, if you want to use any of the med. burn rate powders, the 7x57 and 7/08 like my grandson's area about ideal. Good velocity, great killing power, and a nice balance of bullet wt., hole size and usability on a huge variety of game just by picking the right bullets for the purpose. For deer, our little southern whitetails always seem to respond most readily to the lighter, thinner jacketed ones. We almost always hunt from tree stands and generally have time to wait to get a broadside shot, or nearly so, and don't need a lot of bullet wt. or penetration go get through their back ends, etc., so it just works best to use the lighter, faster expanding bullets and just place them well forward of the diaphragm, preferably right on the little crease behind their front leg, about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom of the chest. If one takes one of these and runs off, it's probably because you hit the heart, and it'll run out of blood & O2 in about 50 yds. It really doesn't take a "controlled expanding" bullet on these smallish deer. The .308 is a great caliber, expecially if you want a short barreled rifle, as is the .30/30 on deer. The great thing abou the .30/30 is that every RN or FN bullet made in .30 cal. is made expressly for the .30/30's performance level and velocity. They penetrate and expand very well in all makes that I've seen, and they've been all the standard makes.

If anyone can figure it all out, they're a lot smarter and more experienced than I am, and I have no problem at all with that. A lot of what I know also comes from a friend who has shot more deer than most people have ever seen. He's done an awful lot of cropping problem herds for farmers, and I've hunted with him often, and he's also the best natural shot I've ever seen. He's a big fan, for deer, of the .25/06, .270, 7x57 and 7/08. He doesn't like the magnums, and his experience mirrors my own in that they tend to have more deer run off after the hit due to the "controlled expansion" nature of the bullets used in them. And all the while a .25/06 or the others will almost always put them down in their tracks with a good hit. It seems counterintuitive, but when you think about it, it makes at least some sense. Maybe there really IS a thing called "overkill" after all????

I do also think that when all's said and done, it's the hunter, and not the arm or caliber, that makes the most difference. A good hunter with a .22 RF will eat venison, and a tyro with a .458 will go hungry, most likely.

When I go into the woods now, I always like to carry something that'll deal effectively and very quickly with a wild or rabid dog or coyote, and in the swamps, with up to a bear at close range. They normally shy away from people, and are almost never heard as they make their escape, but they're there, whether they're seen or not, normally. For me, it just winds up being a matter of choosing what it might take to survive and come home and do it all over again. For me, I guess that'll always be what I regard as a "balanced" caliber choice.

[brstevns]

Guess it all comes down to the level of recoil you feel comfortable with and knowing your cartridge of choose when perform up to your expectations .

[MT Gianni]

I bought a 7/30 waters contender bbl in '15 and am very happy with it. It is a perfect step down from the 7x57 .

[marlin39a]

I'd have to say the .223 Rem. I have it for home defense and as a go to for a back country walking varminter. Brass is cheap. Bullet selection is broad. Low powder use. Low recoil.

[dtknowles]

The .308 case is perfectly balanced as a .338 Federal, 3200 ft lbs of energy.
The .30-06 case is perfectly balanced as a .338-06 , 3600 ft lbs of energy.
Go bigger on either one and power/energy goes down.
Go smaller, and power goes down.

I don't think you have this right, .35 Whelen has 3760 Ft. LBs of energy.

http://www.hornady.com/store/35-Whelen-200-GR-SP-Superformance/

Tim

[jmort]

If they made a Superformance .338-06 it would exceed that. Look at some reloading data. I thought the same thing at first. But since there is no factory .338-06, I will agree that the 35 Whelen/.35 caliber is the perfect balance for that case.

[bear67]

Some of us drive Chevys, some Fords, Dodges, Caddys and I guess there are still Yugo drivers, so everyone has his opinion and his favorites.

In balance if I had only one centerfire rifle it would be the old O6, but my favorite cartridge and rifles are in .257 Roberts. It was my first and surly will be the last. I have killed over 150 whitetail including deer management harvests, mule deer, 2 elk, one black bear with the used Rem 722 I bought in '58 and have had lots of fun with bullets from 87 to 120 g. I own other Bobs, but that old 722 is a trusted friend.
The 7 x 57 fits my needs for 7mm.
The .308 Win is great in .30
I still enjoy the .35 Rem
Maybe being old has moderated my need for power and punch. Heck I once had a .375 H&H--don't remember why now. My eyesight won't kill at 400 yards or I just won't try. The oldies are still goodies--Heck I just might be one of these "Oldies."

[perotter]

If there was a perfect one, it would be the only one any of us had. Plus as we are reloaders, we get to make them into something that isn't available from the store.

[jmort]

This not a discussion about a single cartridge/caliber. It is a discussion about balance. Makes sense to me. An excellent thread to read.

[JWT]

I'm surprised the 375HH hasn't been mentioned. It's been a do everything gun for a long time.

[Artful]

Guess it all comes down to the level of recoil you feel comfortable with and knowing your cartridge of choose when perform up to your expectations .

While very true - as a reloader I can take a cartridge and load it down but it's hard to get better performance out it than factory ammo. I have cartridges from 222 to 375 Weatherby, and I usually shoot those that are more efficent - 9mm vs 357 mag, 45 acp vs 44 mag, 308 vs 300 win mag etc.
I have picked the ones for category of use, and those get the most range time.
9mm, 45 acp, 44 mag for pistol plinkers
223 & 7.62x39 cheap rifle plinkers.
243 & 308 for long distance in good conditions.
338 or 300 win mag for long distance in less than ideal conditons.
358 or 375 BB for short range thumpers.
45-70 & 375 weatherby magnum for real thumpers.

[bearcove]

I think a person could be well served by three rifles, all based on the .308 case. .243, .308, and .358 Win.

I could reduce this to 7-08 and .358 win and never want for anything else for hunting.

But I like complication so would prefer a 35 rem and a 45-70 both very efficient with a cast bullet.

[bearcove]

I don't think you have this right, .35 Whelen has 3760 Ft. LBs of energy.

http://www.hornady.com/store/35-Whelen-200-GR-SP-Superformance/

Tim

Ft. LBs of energy. Another form of hot air. Pointless statistic in my opinion.

But I am a Whelen fan and user.

[dtknowles]

What are we balancing. Recoil vs. Killing ability? That is what the OP seemed to be driving at. Something that would take a white tail at reasonable ranges without a lot of kick. Did not seem enough gun for Moose or Big Bears or Big Hogs. Maybe not enough gun for 600 yard shots on Elk or Mule Deer. Personally for big game hunting where you don't shoot a lot of rounds, the recoil from even a lightweight 30-06 does not bother me at all even if I am only wearing a tee shirt. Can't say how I would feel about a 7mm mag. or 300 mag. Anything bigger than that I would want a shooting jacket and a gun with some heft.

There is no perfect cartridge, everyone is a compromise but very many cartridges are good enough. Just pick one of the many that will do the job.

Tim

[Lonegun1894]

That is a very good point. Nothing is perfect for everything, or we wouldn't need the variety we have. For instance, most of my hunting is in close, almost always inside 100 yards, and probably 90% of it inside 50 yards, bu that is because I have come to see the challenge in seeing how close I can get. So while today I can feed me and mine with a .357 revolver, back in my long range "hunting" days of using a heavy barreled scoped .308, I saw that as the absolute minimum caliber that was even worth hunting with. Now for some here, the range capability is an absolute must due to terrain and conditions, but I still think most of us use more than is needed. And I include myself in that. I have taken many hogs with a .22 LR pistol, but still enjoy chasing them with a .44 Mag, .45 Colt, or .45-70. I just get closer when hunting with the .22, but they die just as quick and taste just as good.

[GabbyM]

For 22's I like the 222 Rem. Optimal case capacity for 22 bore. If you load it up to the same pressure level as a 223 performance is about the same on a 50 grain J bullet. For cast shooting it's plum better than the 223.

[bayjoe]

My opinion is 308 for jacketed 165/168 grain bullets and 30-30 for cast 150/180 grain bullets

[David2011]

I'm convinced there are optimal cartridges-- but they don't always fit the intended design of the rifle.


To complicate your thesis I think a boolit and a j-word may very well have different "optimal" cartridges for each caliber.

When I revisited the thread something came to mind and the I read this:


I'm surprised the 375HH hasn't been mentioned. It's been a do everything gun for a long time.

Yeah! I have a .375 H&H waiting to get a stock. For the game I hunt there is no need for full bore loads but with cast 250 grain boolits reduced with H4895 to under 2000 fps it would be a sledgehammer for pigs. The load would be about equal to what I'm shooting out of a Contender handgun in .44 Mag with 4 times the firearm weight. It should be far more pleasant to shoot.

David

[dead dog]

I would say the 300 Savage is balanced better than most for power verses recoil.

[Wolfer]

Even back when I played considerably with long range shooting I still didn't like overbore cartridges.
I found that if I spent the time at the range and maximize POA I could do all that I needed to with standard cartridges. 338 win mag or 338-06, 30-06, 7x57 etc.
Nowadays I find that it doesn't matter much. My 30-30, 30-40, 7x57, 8x57, 30-06, all shoot a cast boolit of about 175 gr to about 1800 fps.
My two 338 rifles run a 220 gr to about the same speed.
I don't seem to need the power or recoil that I once thought I needed.

If I ever get to go back out west hunting I'll revert back to my old ways for a little while.

[nekshot]

appreciate your input and again I am looking at the amount of powder "needed" not gun writer inspired for a given cartridge in a specific caliber to get the job done most efficiently. I often heard oldtimers say the gun is good for women or kids, or they would say the cartridge's recoil is more of a push than a snappy punch, and then there were those who reloaded and extolled a cartridge for its efficieny of powder and still be with in 150-200 fps of the "enough gun theory). Just interesting to think about and I don't expect an agreement but fun never the less! I often heard the term "most balanced cartridge" in the 70's but I was on the speed wagon and never listened to their conversations to my regret!

[shooter2]

I guess "balance" means different things to people. I always though of it as the ratio of case capacity to bore size 10:1 being optimal. The 257 Roberts fitting that perfectly. My Ruger #1 puts 7 shots into .4**" with boring regularity.

[ShooterAZ]

223, 30-06, and 50 BMG.

[dtknowles]

I guess "balance" means different things to people. I always though of it as the ratio of case capacity to bore size 10:1 being optimal. The 257 Roberts fitting that perfectly. My Ruger #1 puts 7 shots into .4**" with boring regularity.

What is magic about 10 to 1. I would think that as powders improved that the ratio would go down. Still, don't know why any ratio would be optimum. Optimum for what?

Tim

[dragon813gt]

I would say the 300 Savage is balanced better than most for power verses recoil.

I will agree. But the 308 has better performance w/ only a small increase in recoil. And then we get to the short neck of the 300 Savage but that's another issue.

There is no doubt the 375 H&H is an excellent round. If I lived in Africa it would be my knock around rifle. But I don't live in Africa. It takes a lot powder and lead to feed the 375 H&H and in return you get a lot of recoil.

I personally prefer soft shooters. Which is why I typically hunt w/ a 300 Savage or 35 Remington. Both are more rifle than I need.

[fouronesix]

"Efficiency" is a quantitative term but seems to defy most definitions. I think it'd be something like the ratio between amount of powder and muzzle energy or amount of powder and muzzle momentum or something along those lines. "Optimum" seems to be more subjective (kind of like the term "favorite") so will likely defy any attempt at consensus.

For my optimum cast and black powder, I like cartridges like the 45-70 or 43 Spanish. For lower power range jacketed smokeless- something like the 260 Rem, 7x57 or 7-08 seem right. For mid power- something in the range of the 338-06 to 375 HH suits me. For heavier work I like the 416 Remington pushing a 400 gr solid or tough bullet at 2400 fps or one of the 3.65" 458 designs pushing a 500 gr solid or tough bullet at 2400 fps.

[Lonegun1894]

If we're talking the least powder, then I stand by the .357 Mag. I mean, my two biggest animals I hunt are deer and hog, and I have taken plenty of both with a 158gr SWC pushed by 7.0 grs Unique. How's that for optimum and efficient?

[white eagle]

for me its the 280 Ackley Improved

[fouronesix]

Or how about the 22 lr :)

[Clay M]

I have a liking for the 7-08 and the .308 Win. Have rifles in both calibers, and can't decide which is "best." Both are excellent.

These two would be my choice as well.
I always considered the .308 win the most perfect cartridge ever designed..

[seaboltm]

Well, its a wildcat of sorts, but the 6.5x55 Ackley is a beast. Factory loads fire fine, kill fast, and make great looking Ackley brass. In a 21" barrel, using Ackley fireformed cases from Norma brass, my hunting load is a Nosler 140 Accubond that shoots an honest 2800fps over my Chrony. In my 6.5x55 Ackley with a 26 inch tube it approaches 3000 fps. That load shoots as flat or flatter (probably flatter) than a 270 Winchester and hits like Thor's hammer.