Cost vs practicality

[toolz568]

I started this post 3 times now and killed it as I am not trying start a tirade. I own BT's 40 and 45 dies and I will never sell them. My 45 dies have paid for themselves more than twice over as my son thinks 45 ammo grows on trees. I figured about a 1000 bullets was my break even point and I did that the first year. So with that, 1000 .224's are under a $100. Essentially there is no break even point. I am trying to justify buying a set of dies or 6,000-10,000 .224's which could possibly last me a lifetime. Your thoughts?

[Hickory]

I pickup my swaging press & dies (.224 caliber) when I was 26 years old.
I'm now nearly 65, so in the nearly 40 years I have gotten my monies worth from them.
I quess it depends on how much you shoot and how long you live. I've shot my share of prairie dogs in that time and have made over 80,000 bullets with my outfit.
It's always been fun to make bullets, and anytime I'm having fun it's worth the price of admission.

[MrWolf]

I look at it this way. Is it a business or hobby? I will spend extra on my hobby because of the enjoyment it brings me. I also purchased BT's 45 dies that I will not even see again for at least a year, but I know how much pleasure I get from doing this stuff. That is really what you are paying for; the pleasyre derived making vs the cost of actually buying the item. Have fun.

Ron

[Artful]

I have a swage setup for turning 22LR brass into .224 proj's but at the current cost, I just buy them - If prices continue to climb I will get them out again. You have to figure not only your material costs but the investment of time in making them. Your time is worth something!

That said - Everything I have bought a lifetime supply of has run out at some point - so either my estimate of how long I'm going to be here is way short or my activity has been above my estimates.

Oh, and if you or your son decide to do competitive shooting (sounds like he's doing it with the 45) expect your consumption of .224's to be well above 10k. - just saying as I've shot high power and 3 gun.

[ncbearman]

Cost? not even a factor for me. My Dad showed me how 40 years ago how to cast and load. I haven't stopped since. BUT if the reason one does it is strictly for the cost then you are on the right track. artful is correct in saying your time is worth something. Is it worth it if it takes you away from the higher priority items in your life such as family. Thats huge. I was on a 20 year break from it all as I didn't have time while raising 4 kids. On the other hand it can be a great bonding experience once they become of age to do it along side you. Now thats quality time. Your accomplishing 2 things. Cheap loads and time spent talking to your kids/grandkids :)

[kc3ak]

Just to add my little bit here. I have a .224 bullet swaging set up that will never "pay" for itself since I'm all but 70 years old. But those $12-$13 per 100 .224 bullets are no where near as accurate and the ones I get from fired 22 rimfire cases. The factory bullets give me about 1.5 to 1.75 inch groups from my sporter weight Ruger American. My home made bullet give me .75 inch or slightly smaller (if I do my part). Maybe that is not worth the money to some, but it sure is to me. I guess that is what it boils down to. It has to be "worth it" to you. Actually, I have 2 more sets of dies on order from Richard Corbin right now. Will they pay for themselves? No way. Will I enjoy using them? You betcha! And when I'm too old to use them (I guess that COULD happen) I can always sell everything and get back a good bit of what I have in them.

[runfiverun]

I do it cause I like doing it.
I also never run out of 10 cent projectiles,,, ever. [unless I run out of jackets or cores]
I use sierra match jackets and still make varmint bullets for 10 cents.
they shoot better than some discount fmj ever will and I can shoot varmints and stuff with them too.
did I mention they group well? as in consistent near 1/2" 100 yd groups well.

[MUSTANG]

Only a decade ago you could find surplus "Pulled" 5.56, 7.62, and .311 seemingly everywhere and at a cost equal to or less than the cost of the lead. You could also find large amounts of surplus ammunition that was only slightly more than the cost of the projectiles. Now what we are seeing available again are manufacturers over-runs or seconds sold in bulk (or possibly the occasional individual selling off the treasure trove they stored away years ago). Cost for these are twice what they were 5 to 10 years ago.

I swage because I enjoy it and have control over projectile weight. If we go back into a bullet drought, I can still shoot. Looking at the cost-practicality-availability mix; it makes good sense for me. Getting into/staying in swaging depends on how much one enjoys swaging, and how often one shoots.

[clodhopper]

I calculate costs on what I could be paying if my time was spent drinking tequila down at the bar.
Booze, tips, DUI, insurance.
Bullet swaging is cheap!

[mckenziedrums]

I had this debate ad nauseum with myself before I started down the swaging path a couple weeks ago. Right out of the gate I knew I wasn't doing it to save money but because I wanted to expand my hobby and learn more about projectile design, etc. So I went into it with my eyes open at least...

My first step was to pick a caliber... and I looked at all the guys swaging .224 and decided it wasn't for me. Why? Well because of exactly what you stated... bullets are CHEAP right now. My precision shooting isn't with 22 caliber rifles right now so I decided that I'd buy a few thousand bullets and stash them away and then pick a different caliber.

I decided on 30 caliber first... I shoot a number of rifles in various 30 cal varieties and it just makes sense to be able to make precision bullets in this caliber. Additionally I ordered up some rounder nose profiles for heavy subsonic work. To me this is probably the most versatile rifle caliber to be able to use and I'm surprised more people don't start out with it. In many ways I think it's easier than handling tiny little 22 bullets as well. Considering the cost of a Berger 30 caliber match bullet, this actually might be cheaper than buying at some point ;) For an additional "money savings" I am getting the dies to make jackets from 5.7 brass that is relatively cheap.

Those particular dies are still on order and I was in a hurry to get swaging.... Since then I decided to pick up the 10s 6mm dies that RCE happened to have in stock ready to go. These will work well in a number of 6mm calibers and I have a few rifles here to use them in. These aren't as money saving as say a 30 caliber set but I like the idea that I can make these jackets from 22 win mag brass in a pinch.

My next purchase will be 6.5 dies... My thinking here is I'll have the major rifle calibers covered between 6, 6.5 and 30 caliber. One day I may add the .224 stuff but for the moment I have enough cheap bullets here that I feel like it's not worth my time to do that particular caliber. Of course, a few years back when 224 was impossible to find I suppose I'd have wished I had the dies had I not had a good supply here.

[rolltide]

Well I started with a 50 cal set from Brian for my 500 S&W. Since jacketed projectiles are about $1 each, the break even point is way less than a thousand. For 223, I picked up a jacket maker from RCE ($100) and a reloading press point forming die from Dave Corbin for about $200. I have a small lathe Hardinge lathe ($250 on CL) now so I can make my own core swage and core seating dies and punches. So there are ways to greatly reduce your initial cost. It will still take me a few thousand to break even for FMJ ammo. I like the thin jackets made from 22lr brass because I keep a 223 pistol for a house gun and those thin jacketed 223's break up quickly in sheet rock, so it is about the safest option to avoid over penetration and unintended collateral damage in suburban self-defense situations. I can also use birdshot and cornstarch to make my own "magsafe" type frangible loads. So if I were only shooting gophers with FMJ's, I would probably just buy surplus bullets. Since I use my 223 with specialty defense rounds, my break even point is actually much lower if you look at Magsafe rounds at $30 for 6 rounds, my break even point is about 200 rounds and I can afford to practice a LOT with my actual carry rounds. If I ever have to use these rounds and it keeps an over-penetration from injuring someone, PRICELESS. I just say that because there are many ways to look at economics, value and breakeven points.

Though I had been reloading for decades, I really never got into swaging until the last ammo shortage which was really historic. I never thought I would see that in the USA in my lifetime. By getting into swaging, I can now make my own projectiles for pennies, and I have made sure I will ALWAYS be able to enjoy my shooting hobby, hunt and protect my family regardless of factory availability, as will my children and grandchildren. PRICELESS :grin:

[mckenziedrums]

Brian sent me one of the 50 cal sample bullets for the 500... If I shot that hand cannon I think swaging those would be an absolute no brainer. While I do have a 45 set now it was more of a bargain hunting deal than something I figured I'd make money back.

One thing I'm discovering is that at 35 years old I think I'm one of the younger guys getting into swaging lol Guess I'll have more time to recoup my costs ;)

[Hick]

Its all about having more fun for less money. Before I caught the disease I spent nothing on shooting sports. Now I spend lots, but since I started reloading I spend less than half per shot of what it would cost from the stores. The point is well taken that for some loads there isn't much savings. But for rifles in larger calibers or unusual calibers (think 32 WS) the savings is huge because the factory ammo is so darned expensive. The way I look at it, since I know I've got to shoot, I want to get the most "bang" for my buck, and reloading and using cast does that for me (and the challenges of reloading just make the shooting all the more fun!)

[mckenziedrums]

Its all about having more fun for less money. Before I caught the disease I spent nothing on shooting sports. Now I spend lots, but since I started reloading I spend less than half per shot of what it would cost from the stores. The point is well taken that for some loads there isn't much savings. But for rifles in larger calibers or unusual calibers (think 32 WS) the savings is huge because the factory ammo is so darned expensive. The way I look at it, since I know I've got to shoot, I want to get the most "bang" for my buck, and reloading and using cast does that for me (and the challenges of reloading just make the shooting all the more fun!)

Ah but Hick... you're in the Swaging forum! Here in this forum we put those nekkid boolits back into some proper metal clothing. (Typically at great expense to our wallets lol)

[rolltide]

I bet you never thought you would be considered a youngster at 35. :lol:

[mckenziedrums]

That's why I hang around this forum... Keeps me feeling like a kid!

[guywitha3006]

Mckenziedrums, if it is any consolation I am only 26...I figure I have a good 40 to 50 years to recoup the initial costs. :D

Brian sent me one of the 50 cal sample bullets for the 500... If I shot that hand cannon I think swaging those would be an absolute no brainer. While I do have a 45 set now it was more of a bargain hunting deal than something I figured I'd make money back.

One thing I'm discovering is that at 35 years old I think I'm one of the younger guys getting into swaging lol Guess I'll have more time to recoup my costs ;)

[mckenziedrums]

Well great... back to feeling old again! When I was younger I was blowing all my money on go-fast parts and entry fees for various tracks. To think of all the swaging tools I could have bought.

[toolz568]

Thanks for all your input as I needed a push to justify this next set of dies.

Ok, so I guess I should be following this forum more closely, I did not know the swaged .224's were out performing the average bulk buy but it makes sense. And to Mchenziedrums, my next purchase is a 30 cal set. I got stupid and bought a AR-10 After someone tries to tell me I may not be able to have one later.

I agree the best chance of pay back is in your big calibers, but accuracy is important so I just my rethink my .224 Swaging dies. And yes I still am going to buy the 6k of .224's but the .224 Swaging dies are definitely back on my want list.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

my 2¢
If you can afford the 224 die setup, a cost/benefit analysis isn't really necessary. Bottom line is, even if you can't count on the dies paying for themselves in X amount of time, they are a capital expenditure, which you you will likely be able to recoup (much of the investment), at most any point in time.

BUT, when we enter another cycle where it's nearly impossible to procure 224 projectiles, like it was just two/three short years ago...you will be extremely happy you invested your time and money into swaging your own.

[BT Sniper]

There is one more benefit as well that hasn't been mentioned, maybe because it is a grey area, but when others know you can make bullets the trade value can be very good in a times of need. In a time of need that grey area becomes more black and white, there will be those with bullets and those without, hopefully it doesn't come to that but.......

I have always said it is a hobby and one is free to spend as much or as little on their hobbies as they wish, there is certainly worse things we could spend our money on.

Good shooting and swage on!

BT

[Hickory]

1000 .224's are under a $100. Essentially there is no break even point. I am trying to justify buying a set of dies or 6,000-10,000 .224's which could possibly last me a lifetime. Your thoughts?

No matter your age or how much you shoot you can justify buying a swaging out fit in several ways.
1) Making bullets is fun.
2) Make the best bullets you can, having fun doing it, and as many as you are up to making, so that when you pass on your children can realize a monetary gain not only from the bullets but the press & dies.
3) If one of your children becomes interested in swaging, it can be a great money saver for him.
4) Looking at from another aspect, swaging press & dies are cheap, compared to buying a fishing boat & motor, motorcycle, travel trailer/camper, snowmobile that only have seasonal uses and cost money to operate.
You can swage bullets anytime, year round and save or make money with an occasional sale that won't make the ATF react like a kicked hornets nest.
Just some thoughts that might have been overlooked.

[Faret]

my 2¢
If you can afford the 224 die setup, a cost/benefit analysis isn't really necessary. Bottom line is, even if you can't count on the dies paying for themselves in X amount of time, they are a capital expenditure, which you you will likely be able to recoup (much of the investment), at most any point in time.

BUT, when we enter another cycle where it's nearly impossible to procure 224 projectiles, like it was just two/three short years ago...you will be extremely happy you invested your time and money into swaging your own.

Which is why I already have a set in hand!

[DukeInFlorida]

My thoughts:
1) I started swaging a bit later in life than most of you. I'm 64 now, and started swaging within the past 10 years. I've already saved tons of money, when all of the tooling and accessory costs are taken into consideration. And, the tools will last well beyond my lifetime. My son is also getting interested, and he's only 30.
2) I can adjust the tools, and produce a whole range of bullet weights and nose configurations, from XTP style hollow points, to solid nose bullets. I can make .22, .30. .40, .44, .45, and .500 sized bullets at this point. So, no matter what task I want the bullets for, I can make them in a variety of weights, etc. And, never worry if the store has what I want.
3) God forbid..... but if our government ever shuts down all the bullet manufacturers from selling bullets retail, I don't give a damn. Between castings for everything that I shoot, and swaged bullets which cover 80 percent of what I shoot, I can keep in practice, regardless.
4) If the end of the earth as we know it ever comes, I can make bullets with available on hand raw materials, without ever worrying about if the retail stores are even open or in existence.
5) Even if the zombies never attack, or the govt never interferes with commercial manufacturing and retail sales of bullets, I am all set, and saving money all the way.

I have several shooting hobbies, and love them all equally: shooting, casting, swaging. I don't golf. I don't scuba dive, or jump out of airplanes. I don't play softball, or football. Shooting is my basic hobby, and has been for decades. The casting and swaging hobbies support my shooting hobby. I'm a very happy guy.

[Hick]

Ah but Hick... you're in the Swaging forum! Here in this forum we put those nekkid boolits back into some proper metal clothing. (Typically at great expense to our wallets lol)

I stand chastised for mentioning cast in a Swaging Forum (lol)-- But I also reload FMJ and save a lot over factory loads for all three of my rifles (32 WS, 30-30 and M1). Even with the 32 WS I can load for 1/3 of what the factory ammo costs. Also, being able to try lots of bullets that the factories won't sell adds to the fun-- like using long pointed bullets in the Model 94 30-30 as single shot loads. I guess I need to study up on swaging.

[MrWolf]

There is also the most important reason - I want it. My money, I earned it.

[Artful]

In a time of need that grey area becomes more black and white, there will be those with bullets and those without, hopefully it doesn't come to that but.......

Good shooting and swage on!

BT

An Excellent point and not to be taken lightly in this day and age. But you will still need empty brass, primers, powder to use the bullets.

[pertnear]

I like to make .224 from RF jackets. Yes it is fun & they shoot good but justifying the cost of the set-up would be difficult with bulk .224 bullets being pretty reasonable in cost. But I too, without being too paranoid, see this as an opportunity to keep me shooting while our government tries to choke shooting out of existence any way it can. My other justification (i.e. rationalization) was the resale value of the dies/equipment. Look around at the prices for used bullet swaging dies, assuming you can find any. Yes you can look at swaging dies as a luxury, but the value will always remain high or even profitable if the anti-gun climate chokes all gun items into scarcity.

FWIW...

[goblism]

I look at them as investments and also simply part of a hobby. I got into swaging because I wanted more control over my ammuination, i link to tinker with stuff, as well as "save money." Like all of my hobbies to save money I end up saving nothing and get to enjoy the hobby more. Don't try and rationalize the costs involved in something you enjoy doing. If you are doing swaging to truly save money I would advise to pick up a few extra hours at work and buy bulk bullets, you will save nothing if you don't enjoy the swaging process.

[BT Sniper]

An Excellent point and not to be taken lightly in this day and age. But you will still need empty brass, primers, powder to use the bullets.

True!

When I started, I traded a lot of what I made for things I didn't have a lot of. Now I have more scrap brass components to make bullets with then I know what to do with. So if the day comes I'll have to find the guy that has a lot of powder and primers to trade projectiles for :)

Swage on!

BT

[fredj338]

I bought a set of BT's 224 dies, love making the bullets, but I won't ever get ROI on them. Even at $800, that is like 10,000 bullets. I've made right at 1000, satisfied I could make a bullet at least as accurate as bulk 55gr FMJ, then set them aside. I have the knowledge & ability, about 10k 222lr jackets, lead is only a parking lot away. So if I have to make my own, living in Kalifornistan one never knows, I can keep shooting when others are scrounging bullets.

[plus1hdcp]

I bought a set of BT's 224 dies, love making the bullets, but I won't ever get ROI on them. Even at $800, that is like 10,000 bullets. I've made right at 1000, satisfied I could make a bullet at least as accurate as bulk 55gr FMJ, then set them aside. I have the knowledge & ability, about 10k 222lr jackets, lead is only a parking lot away. So if I have to make my own, living in Kalifornistan one never knows, I can keep shooting when others are scrounging bullets.

Well said. Also, during the last downturn I had the ability to roll my own and take my dad and son out to the range without rationing bullets. It was also nice to simply have the bullets. Good luck on your endeavors.

[tenx]

there's the cost break even factor but also consider your time involved. Also a big factor for me is I can sit on a quantity of powder and primers and make boolits when needed. Boolits are normally the most expensive single item so that allows more funds for primers and such. Besides it allows me to do more shooting without affecting family finances and keeping peace in the house with the better half. I cast most all pistol boolits and swage 22's from rimfire and make 35 cal rifle boolits using 9mm brass. I'm careful to minimize the time spent away from the family playing with boolits.

[rbuck351]

I don't think I have put $100 worth of jacketed rifle bullets down range in the last ten years and I probably haven't shot $5 worth of jacketed pistol bullets in the last ten years that I paid for. I don't see much point in covering a boolit for a pistol as they don't seem to work any better. I have shot a bunch of cast boolits and have them working well enough to shoot anything I need shot within 200 + yds. I don't think I will live long enough to make a set of swaging dies cost effective. I retire soon and will probably make a die set for making .224 from 22lr cases just to see if I can.

[Prospector Howard]

It's not rocket surgery for me. It's all about how fast you're shooting the bullets, how cheap and easy it is to get the jacket material, and how much work to make the jackets and the bullets. .223's from .22 cases makes the most sense by a long shot. Cast is a waste of time at the velocities that make sense for the round, and the jackets are free, easy to make, and very plentiful. .243's from .22 magnum and 17 hmr cases comes in second, for mostly the same reasons. Just a little harder to source cases for jackets and a little more work trimming them the right length. The .44 bullets I make from .40 s&w cases comes in third because they're pretty easy to make, I find alot of free .40 cases, and I shoot most of them in my Win lever rifle. If I was shooting pistol only, I probably wouldn't go through the effort to swage them. I'm also making 8mm bullets from drawn 9mm and trimmed and drawn .223 cases but it's alot of work. I see some on here working their tails off swaging pistol bullets for 9mm, .40 cal and .45 and it doesn't make much sense to me. It's neat to say look what I can do, I can make bullets that look just like XTP's; but with the cost of the dies and work involved, I really don't get it. Just buy a box if you need some, how many will you need anyway? For general pistol shooting, practice, and range time; cast makes the most sense for the velocities you shoot those rounds. Just my 2 cents. That and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee.

[guywitha3006]

Another reason for going swaged over cast is supressor use. My 30 caliber can is sealed and not user serviceable, as is the 45 can I want to get in the near future. I have shot powder coated subsonic through my .30 caliber can but I think I have more accuracy potential with swaged. Also the thought of hollow pointed cast boolits seems way to tedious to make enough to practice regularly with.

[rbuck351]

I haven't tried swaging, but I'm thinking it would be much less tedious and faster to use an NOE 4cav HP mold and a Star sizer to make a bunch of HP boolits than buying a set of swag dies and jackets and core cutter and lead wire or core mold then seating the core then swaging one bullet at a time. I have never swaged so am I missing something here. i understand the can thing but why would you buy a non serviceable can. Don't they eventually fill with crud even shooting jacketed. Can you shoot a 45 good enough to need the better accuracy of a jacketed bullet? if you can, you are a better shot than I. Best I can do is about 2" at 50yds with cast in my 1911. Rifle is a bit different as sub MOA is not easy with cast. I don't have bench guns and with my hunting rifles, about 1 1/2" @100 is about as good as i can do with cast. The 20 or 30 jacketed rifle bullets I shoot in a year just wouldn't pay off for swaging stuff.