Mud Torture Tests!

[Artful]

AK47
https://www.full30.com/video/753d617d16a9cb6c09526519a0740313

AR15
https://www.full30.com/video/30a1f036a5143172f5da39cf50f46360

M1 Garand
https://www.full30.com/video/a9145047584c659d45aacc4e1392d2e3

MORE
https://www.full30.com/video/9eef6b3a4eb6c8846a4c8dc4b8968bc4

[JSnover]

"George Patton is going to kick your ***."

[M-Tecs]

Cool videos but I would like to see tests of more normal type challenges like riding in a convoy all day and than firing with heavy dust and sand contamination . Until you have been in the sandbox it's hard to comprehend how fine some of the sand is. Some is like talcum powder. It gets everywhere and it's impossible to keep out. Under those type conditions lub. is a huge factor in the results.

I do not have first hand experience but the rep from Afghanistan is the M14 EBR rifles are more reliable than the M110 (SR-25/AR 10) rifles.

[Artful]

Actually when I moved from Oregon to Arizona I found that the HK system was more fragile in dust and move the the FAL platform.

[w5pv]

I saw a demo of m14 when I was in the Army where they were pouring a thick mud into the breech of an m14,It kept on firing.Being the m14 is a smaller version of Grande I would suspect that it would be close to the same.

[jmort]

Very Interesting. AR done good, AK, not so much. There you go, one reputed to be finicky and the other, the one that allegedly runs no matter what, and the conventional wisdom is turned on its head.

[Artful]

Every test is different - you just have to try and see - I know someone that had a captured AK in his locker - he'd shoot it - not clean it put it back in the locker and the next time he went to use it, it would be frozen closed and he'd pogo the action and reload and it would shoot fine - this was back in '67 he told of this. Too bad he didn't get to bring it home. :lol:

[W.R.Buchanan]

the Mini 14 does well under adverse conditions as well.

As side note: I would bring to everyone's attention that the San Bernardino Police Dept. is using all Mini 14's now in an effort to not look "Military." They have given up exactly no firepower but are feeling more warm and fuzzy with the new guns.

Also all the French Police are using them and have been for a long time .

Randy

[Artful]

So Randy what are they doing with all their old AR's? Selling them to the civilians in CA? :lol:

[Hickok]

I have AR's and AK's (47 and 74) like many of you here. I have had jams with all of them on occasion using Mil spec ammo. (using good mags also).

I haven't really ever seen where the AK system was the mythical feed every time under all conditions rifle. Just my findings, using the rifles in the woods, or slung on a 4 wheeler. (Nothing like use in combat or in the sandbox, and I salute you guys and gals who have been there) And I am no firing hundreds of rounds in succession until the entire rifle is super hot.

I always kinda' raise an eyebrow when I hear someone tell how bad an AR is for jamming, and an AK never fails to feed. Just not the experience I have had with both rifles. My AK's are not junk either, they are quality made Arsenal inc.

My results may go against common wisdom, but I am reporting my experiences truthfully.

I did own a Garand at one time, and now have an M1A, and they are excellent rifles.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

OH NO! Not with my beautiful M1 you don't! :wink:

[tbx-4]

... the FAL platform.

Oooo, he said PLATFORM!

[Windwalker 45acp]

the Ak was a parts gun....

[Lloyd Smale]

I have to agree. My ars have been every bit as reliable as my aks have been. Now granted ive only had two aks but both were quality guns. There actions are more exposed to mud and sand then an ar with a port cover. Now get dirt into either and they both can stop running right. The m1s and minis don't surprise me there action is right there in the open. To many people still poo poo on the ars because of the rep it got in the beginning in nam. Later guns even in that war ran just fine and theres not to many GIs today that would swap there m4 for a slapped together parts ak that is about all your going to run into over there. Not to many rag heads have brand new ak47s. Don't get me wrong a ak is a fine weapon but the newer ar designs are just as good and hands down more accurate.
I have AR's and AK's (47 and 74) like many of you here. I have had jams with all of them on occasion using Mil spec ammo. (using good mags also).

I haven't really ever seen where the AK system was the mythical feed every time under all conditions rifle. Just my findings, using the rifles in the woods, or slung on a 4 wheeler. (Nothing like use in combat or in the sandbox, and I salute you guys and gals who have been there) And I am no firing hundreds of rounds in succession until the entire rifle is super hot.

I always kinda' raise an eyebrow when I hear someone tell how bad an AR is for jamming, and an AK never fails to feed. Just not the experience I have had with both rifles. My AK's are not junk either, they are quality made Arsenal inc.

My results may go against common wisdom, but I am reporting my experiences truthfully.

I did own a Garand at one time, and now have an M1A, and they are excellent rifles.

[richhodg66]

Over my Army career, I carried several M16s, the dust in tactical vehicles at places like Fort Bliss or Fort Irwin is truly unbelieveble if you've never experienced it.

I had an old, well worn M16A1 as my assigned rifle in Desert Storm and had a daily routine of breaking it open, brushing out dust with a toothbrush and running a patch through it, then lightly lubing with CLP. Kept the muzzle covered and magazine well covered when it wasn't loaded and never had any doubts that it would work perfectly every time.

I don't own one now and likely never will, they just don't interest me, but I believe the M16 family of rifles are better than a lot of the old timers want to believe, they don't have to be meticulously maintained to work.

[303Guy]

The French MAS did OK. I'm impressed by the AR! No weapon is supposed to be able to fire with wet sand poured into it! Yet they did.

[Artful]

The Dust/Sand test


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrPjlcJ3rtY

[303Guy]

I am very impressed with the AR15. The MAS isn't too shabby either but the AR is just plain impressive!

[Artful]

DSA FAL mud test
https://www.full30.com/video/583b9d4ac5e2d4913d067dc84be6b6df

Japanese Type 38 bolt action mud test
https://www.full30.com/video/5309802c8ff79140b598f7b2f995ad49

Winchester 1895 mud test
https://www.full30.com/video/2084c0d03050c244adabe84e2fc0e685

Mosin-Nagant bolt action mud test
https://www.full30.com/video/48e5145edc1ca4d8f03435de91211ecf

VZ-58
https://www.full30.com/video/2433e21e96a5be6f3b1633ba509c5e59

Handguns

Luger P08 mud test
https://www.full30.com/video/5cb4ce7929149d32aaf7975b1c548f0b

Colt 1911 mud test
https://www.full30.com/video/d0bacb8b0c464870cceddcba532bf2b4

Styer-Hahn 1912 mud test
https://www.full30.com/video/9cfdf8acad4a6ebbe0bb203793aa9c1e

[Ballistics in Scotland]

the Mini 14 does well under adverse conditions as well.

As side note: I would bring to everyone's attention that the San Bernardino Police Dept. is using all Mini 14's now in an effort to not look "Military." They have given up exactly no firepower but are feeling more warm and fuzzy with the new guns.

Also all the French Police are using them and have been for a long time .

Randy

The Northern Irish police used the M14 in extremely dangerous times there, and kept as close to conventional police uniforms as they could, for that very reason. But they operated almost entirely in ordinary streets and vehicles, with a normal building at the end of every shift. Full auto isn't as useless as some people claim, for nobody wants to break a twig in cover where that is liable to come in his direction. But you can't do that in a normal city, where you hope to patch up the grudges someday.

[Adam Helmer]

Artful,

As a serious military arms collector I cannot understand why any sane person would take a perfectly serviceable Garand, load it and then put it in a wheelbarrow of gooey mud and heap on more mud with an entrenching tool. What was the point? Obviously such mud torture tests were performed BEFORE the Garand was adopted, but why would any gun owner "reinvent the wheel" for a weapon system that won WWII?

None of my military surplus arms will ever see your mud test. In actual military use most military arms never take a "mud bath." Crossing creeks, arms are held high above the water. The military issued clear plastic sleeve gun cases for dusty or rainy days out of combat. The "mud test" causes me to wonder about the tester. To each his own.

Adam

[Artful]

Rack Grade M1 Garand if you viewed the video - And I think they are doing it for objective data - not because it's what they expect the gun to face that exact test on a battlefield unless as they said you tripped and sank into a mud bog.

[Mk42gunner]

The military issued clear plastic sleeve gun cases for dusty or rainy days out of combat.

Which military would that be? I spent twenty years in the Navy as a Gunner's Mate, most of it directly involved with small arms; and I never saw or heard of any clear plastic gun sleeves.

Robert

[charlie in s/w mo]

Which military would that be? I spent twenty years in the as a Gunner's Mate, most of it directly involved with small arms; and I never saw or heard of any clear plastic gun sleeves.

Robert
I spent 23 years in the marines ---three at Coronado ca teaching among other things waterproofing equipment for landing on beaches from the sea. we had plastic sleeves for rifles and also pistols in our training materials (as I remember they were green) and not clear. that said I never saw them at any other time even during three trips to nam. I would bet theres a hellof a bunch of them stored at Barstow ca

[B. Lumpkin]

As Artful said, the U.S. Government spent a whole mess of money torture testing guns for us. I take their word for it, lol.

[Adam Helmer]

charlie,

Thank you, I stand corrected. The plastic rifle sleeve is a light green and is in a OD canvas wrap a little bit bigger than a pack of king size cigaretts. I only have one left and all the GI nomenclature has worn off since I purchased it, and 19 more, for a nickel each at K's Army-Navy store in 1960.

I see these plastic gun covers in the Sarco ads in "Shotgun News" to this day.

Webley

[Artful]

Clone of HK G3 mud test
https://www.full30.com/video/abe80197c42f7023c13e3408235100a1

[Adam Helmer]

Artful,

I viewed the HK G3 Mud Test; so what? What was proved? I think the guy in the video should not skip taking his Meds? ALL the "Mud Tests" are akin to drinking 8-year old Scotch from a paper cup or making love to a debutant on an Army cot. Something is "Missing" in the process in my humble opinion. I have nothing to add to the "TESTS". What a tough act to follow!

Adam

[Multigunner]

The original mud tests of bolt action rifles circa WW1 and earlier involved submerging the rifle in loose mud and pea gravel for several hours. No one expected any soldier to attempt to fire a rifle with mud in the bore or action. The tests were on how quickly the rifle could be cleaned enough to be safe to fire using only two canteens of water poured over the action and down the bore.

The quick takedown feature of the Garand action allows all moving parts of bolt and trigger group to be sluiced off with water very quickly.

[JSnover]

The whole point (I thought) was to dispel the myth of the "100% reliable rifle," that "you could drop it into a mud-filled ditch and it would work just fine."
I don't know how anyone could believe that, even if they hadn't seen the video.

[Multigunner]

"or making love to a debutant on an Army cot"

Don't knock it till you've tried it. It beats heck out of the hood of a volkswagon.

[Hamish]

Those retards need a mud hole stomped in their backsides.

[Artful]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4Ljh5zLBpY

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2015/02/20/the-m1-garand-dust-mud-1950/

[Artful]

You would think that the US Army seemed to think the M1 Garand only ran when clean

[Bigslug]

They make a good point if you watch enough of their vids - it's not about how well the gun runs with mud IN it (none of them do), it's about how well the gun does at helping you keep mud OUT of it. Even the rattly loose ones are tight-tolerance bomb-containment devices - put bigger and bigger rocks inside, EVENTUALLY it's gonna quit.

I've seen AR's choke from bits of a single primer floating around in the action after blowing out of the pocket, brass shavings under the extractor, fouling built up in the ejector plunger tunnel. All that's relatively little and internally generated. Fall into the goo with the bolt back or the magazine out, and it'll crash like the rest. The good news is that once open, it's pretty accessible and would probably do well with the single canteen / pee on it approach.

Funny that the winners seem to be the Luger and the AR (which have a reputation for not being that kind of player) and the '95 Winchester (which was sort of a "Let's try THIS" approach to a military rifle).

[Artful]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0msFCTY7hI

[Multigunner]

Early on when dust covers fitted to the bolt of the Enfield rifle proved more trouble than they were worth and were dropped from rifle designs or removed in service, soldiers in the field found they could keep mud, dust and dirt out of the action by cutting the toe off an old sock and pulling it over the action. Later snap closed canvas covers were used.
The old sock method was sometimes used with the Thompson SMGs in North Africa. Only problem there was you could only protect the action fully if no magazine or drum was in place.