30 cal handgun cartridge

[cumminsnut76]

Here in the near future I am looking at getting a short barrel (13-15") 30 cal barrel for my encore to shoot as a pistol during alternative methods deer season here in Missouri. What I am wanting to know is what cartridge should I get the barrel chambered for? I am looking for something in a shorter cartridge design such as the 30 herrett, or the 30BR or possibly the 30 Bellm that is lower on recoil. I know the 30 Bellm was specifically designed for handgun deer hunting out of encores and contenders, however I don't have any idea how it will perform with cast boolits and its short neck. I will be reloading for this and am not afraid of wildcats as long as brass and dies are available to form. I would like to have an effective range of 150 yds 200 max but most shots will be a lot less. any advice is appreciated.
Thanks
Cumminsnut76

[roverboy]

The .30 Bellm and Herret are both good cartridges. I had a friend (deceased now) that had a .30 Herrett and said it worked good in his 14" Contender. I think he killed a few deer with his.

[Nobade]

30-30?

-Nobade

[P Flados]

I went to the state website & found that the rules are pretty loose:

"Centerfire pistols or revolvers using expanding-type bullets, such as lead or copper"

For 30 cal hunting with an encore pistol, the 308 is the obvious standard choice. However, it does have excess capacity and I really would prefer a rimmed cartridge as it minimizes the chances of fumbling at a bad time.

I got my first 30 Herrett (a 10" contender barrel) back in the late 70s. It is a great little round for a 10" pistol. It is still a good round in a longer pistol, but it is more work than a 30-30 and there are other drawbacks.

For a 200 yd hunting round, I would want a 14" or 15" barrel. With long barrels, there is really not a lot of reason to avoid going with a 30-30. The "excess" case capacity of a 30-30 in a pistol is really only "excess" in the shorter barrels (10" - 12"). Also, with handloads and the encore platform, you should be able to push pretty hard (it will handle 308 pressures just fine) and you should be able to optimize powder choice and loads for the barrel length. For boolits, the extra long neck can be a real plus.

[bearcove]

Hard to beat a 30-30 for that. or a 30-30AI

[rking22]

Another vote for the simple 30-30. I have a 14 inch 30-30 as well as a 10 inch 30 Herret. I like both, but with the 14 inch barrell, the 30-30 is ideal. The 10inch 30-30 was kinda loud so when I found a 14 I grabbed it, haven't looked back. My 30Herret shoots the 311466 very well, and I have found that several of my new NOE 30 boolits fit, but that is not always the case with the 30H chambers. I have had both 10 and 14 barrells in both calibers and this is my chosen pairing, and I have had them since the mid 80s! Herrets are fun, but the 30-30 will do everything the 30H will do and then some (in a 14 inch tube).

[btroj]

309 JDJ. Easy to make cases. Lots of quality in barrels and chambering. Ability to shoot a 165 at 2350-2400 fps from a 15 inch barrel.

Shot an antelope at 235 yards in 2000 out in Wyoming. Lots of range work went into that. 2 inch or better groups at 200 aren't that hard off the bench.

[C A Plater]

There is also the 300 blackout if you want to play with suppressed subsonic loads and fairly cast friendly. I've got a Bergara Encore barrel I'm thinking of shortening to pistol length.

[cumminsnut76]

OK so now you all have me really thinking. I like the idea of a little extra powder in the 30-30AI but is it going to work effectively enough with boolits. Also prob only shooting 150 gn cast and lighter? Or would the plain 30-30 be better.

[Tatume]

309 JDJ. Easy to make cases.

This does not coincide with my experience. I've been shooting the 309 JDJ for many years, and I absolutely HATE making cases for it. Yes, the steps are simple; just lube RP 444 Marlin cases with Imperial Sizing Die Wax and run the cases into a 308 Winchester FL die. The frustrating part is the high rejection rate.

RP 444 Marlin cases are difficult to impossible to get, and are expensive. Throwing them away with neck creases troubles me.

If anybody were to make me a reasonable offer on my blue 14" SSK Contender barrel, I would let it go, with dies. Good cartridge, frustrating to form.

Take care, Tom

[ShooterAZ]

The .30-30 would be my 1st choice. I have it in a 14" barrel for my Contender, and it is a tack driver. There are faster more powerful rounds out there, but for simplicity the 30-30 is a great choice. Brass is readily available, and it's easy to cast and load for.

[sundog]

I'm thinkin' smaller case like a 30x35Mag, 30x357Max, 300BO, or 7.62x39.

Just a thought, if you do not want a smaller case, then why not bigger, like a 300 Win Mag :grin:

[RP3543]

I've got a 10" Contender barrel in 7.62x39 that was rechambered from a 32-20(.308 Dia). Very accurate and effective rig for deer hunting. I've always found the 14" barrels a bit cumbersome to carry, compared to the 10".

[Hamish]

While I have zero experience with any of the JDJ's except the 300 Whisper/BO, (100 yard deer pistol max imo), I would echo Tatumes thoughts regarding .444 Marlin brass and necking it down. The .308 Bellm has been wonderfully accurate, but when the last of the initial brass made for it goes, I will install a regular .308 extractor and be done with oddball expensive shenanigans in that barrel.

That said, as bt says, the 309 JDJ is a daisy for spanking a bullet,,,,,,,

While I have a long neck version of the .30 Bellm built on an XP, hands down, no BS, first, funnerest, and simple to procure and load in the Contender/G2 platform is the 30-30.

But since you're saying it's going to be an Encore, my advice would be a .308 barrel, in as long a length as you could stand it, over the .30 Bellm, long neck or not. WHOLE lot less hassle, dies are cheap and readily available, (CH4D Bellm set is right at $100 shipped), and it ought to be fairly easy to out perform the Bellm with the .308, ESPECIALLY when the projectile weight gets above 150 grains or so I would think.

IF I could have the choice here in Illinois that you have in Missouri, that would be what I would do.

On the other hand,,,,,,,. If the initial investment is not as critical a factor, then a more cast friendly necked .30 Bellm using un trimmed 7BR brass or better yet, the .444 brass option at whatever neck length you prefer, to be able to grab a rim in the cold with gloves on, would be a pretty cool option. That's just a question of ironing out reaming and throating with the barrel maker.

[leadman]

I have a 30-30AI barrel that with the muzzle brake it is 14" long for my Contender. I shoot cast in it all the time. The neck gives good support to the boolits and the cases seldom need to be trimmed. I would not hesitate to use it for a 200 yard shot on a deer. I haven't used cast in it for hunting but do use the Nosler 125gr Ballistic Tip and it works fantastic. Even with my short barrel I can get around 2300 to 2400 fps out of it.
Some of the members of Specialty Pistols have gotten over 2,600 fps with custom 14" to 16" barrels.
For years I would neck size with a Hornady 30 cal neck size die and when the cases need to be full length sized I used a 375 Win die. Lee starting making the 30-30AI so I bought a sizer die from them.
It works great for cast loads from 1,100 fps to almost 2,000 fps depending on the boolit.

[M-Tecs]

For an Encore I would go 30/30 or 308. I have Contenders in 30/30. In the past I owned both the 30 and 357 Herrett. Fun at first but I shot them a lot and I got tired of the brass forming. For a small capacity case I would look at a rimmed 300 http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/05/09/interesting-300-aac-blk-357-wildcat/

The 30 Bellm uses 444 brass and that is currently very hard to find.

[Hamish]

157536157537 Sorry about the upside down. Don't know how to fix it.

OK, left to right:

Short empty is a fire formed an trimmed, 1.4" .30 Bellm, originally R-P 7 BR REM.
6mm Norma BR, necked out with fire firm load, 1.52".
Formed case, un trimmed, 1.505" (shrinkage when blown out).
Original dummy case, formed from .308 W, used in chambering my long neck variation of .30 Bellm using 30-06 AI reamer, 1.5315".

I went about the project kind of bass ackwards, (no offense bass!) knowing that
I had to shoot 1.4" brass to be legal to deer hunt in Illinois, but I wanted a cast friendly neck the rest of the year. I knew going in that accuracy with the shorter brass with jacketed would suffer, but, so be it.

imho, you've got two good choices.

1. Ask Mike Bellm to cut you a .30 Bellm chamber to accommodate full length BR brass. (IIRC, nominal is 1.6"). I think this is your smartest choice as you can discuss throating for specific projectile(s).

2. Either I or Mike supply Match Grade Machine with fire formed full length cases to make a barrel.

Anything I can do to help, just ask,,,,,,,

[M-Tecs]

Thanks. I was not aware of the rimless version. http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=106

[nannyhammer]

Another vote for the 30-30AI. I've only shot mine using 125 grain Ballistic Tips but I easily get 2450fps with my loads and based on some other folks data I'm don't think I'm pushing them hard. Furthest I've shot a deer with it was 102yds and it performed well. Brass is easy to find/form and tons of bullets to try.

[Hamish]

nannyhammer, could you give some more on your set up and load info? I've wondered about improving my 30-30's.

[Tatume]

Another vote for the 30-30AI. I've only shot mine using 125 grain Ballistic Tips but I easily get 2450fps with my loads and based on some other folks data I'm don't think I'm pushing them hard. Furthest I've shot a deer with it was 102yds and it performed well. Brass is easy to find/form and tons of bullets to try.

Is this with a rifle-length barrel?

[nannyhammer]

No this in a 14" contender.

[Tatume]

No this in a 14" contender.

Using the standard 30-30 case, Hodgden can only make this level with a 24" barrel. I would be worried about going that fast in a short barrel, even with the AI case. The AI case holds about 5% more powder than the standard case, and I would expect about 1.25% greater velocity as a result. Any more than that must be attributed to higher pressure.

In a 14" barrel Hodgden data run between 2000 and 2200 fps. Holding the same pressure level and barrel length, I would expect the 30-30 AI to achieve velocities in the range of 2025 - 2230, with most powders in the lower to middle portion of this range.

[nannyhammer]

Hamish, mine was an original TC barrel that was rechambered by JDJ. Have had it a few years and I am happy without although I don't get to use it much as I would like since most public land near me is archery only with limited gun tags.

Tatume, Before I decided to rechamber my barrel I was torn between the AI and the 309 JDJ. Based on all the info I could find the AI was a better choice since I had plenty of brass, less powder needed than the 309, lower recoil without needing a brake and could still gain enough fps to make it worthwhile. If all I was looking at gaining was 25-30 fps I wouldn't have bothered. As far as book velocities, both Speer and Sierra have 14" data with 125 gr bullets at 2300. Also depending on who provided the info, the AI is listed as increasing case capacity from 5-10%. Who knows maybe I have a fast barrel or a tight chamber but those are the velocities that see. Maybe one day we'll see enough interest for pressure testing some of the loads so we'll all have the best info.

[Tatume]

Hi,

One reason I like the Hodgdon site is because their data include pressure. The 7-30 Waters is a good cartridge to compare to the 30-30 AI, because it does have additional powder space. However, max charges for both are about the same for my favorite powder (H or IMR 4895), at 35.0 grains or a few tenths under. Pressures are about the same, 37,000 for the 30-30 with 125 grain bullet, and 39,400 / 39,500 for the 7-30 with 120 / 130 grain bullets, respectively. The 30-30 makes 2200 fps, and the 7-30 makes 2400+ or 2300+ with 120 or 130 grain bullets. Based on all this, I wouldn't condemn the 30-30 AI as being unsafe at the levels you're achieving, but I do believe pressures are at maximum or a little more. If it was me, I would back it off about 100 fps.

Take care, Tom

[leftiye]

Folks at T/C back in the day told me that the Contender could handle rifle pressures in cartridges with 30-30 headsize. I've done that with good success for 40 years with my 30-30 14 inch barrel. 34,000 psi is standard for lever actions.

There have been cases of stretching contender frames with 30-30 headsize cases I know, but I suspect much higher pressures than 48000 in those instances.

[BAGTIC]

SAAMI limits for the 30-30 are 42,000 psi. 7-30 Waters limits are 50,000 psi. I believe the increased pressure for the 7-30 are permissible because it was only chambered in late manufacture guns made of modern steel. In a short barrel pistol the extra powder capacity of the 30-30 AI will largely go to waste increasing muzzle noise. A 30-30 case loaded to the same pressure would be so close to the 30-30AI nothing shot with either would know the difference.

[Moonie]

The OP was discussing the Encore, I'd suggest a 30-06 barrel, but then I have a 15" Encore in 270 so I'm partial to the 06 size cartridge. My first pistol I ever purchased was a Contender in 7-30 Waters, still hate selling it.

[Nicholas]

I too vote for the 30-30 for simplicity, easy brass availability, and effectiveness. I shoot mine in 14 inch contender using the discontinued sierra 135 SSP bullet with good results on the few deer taken with it in the MO alternative weapons season. No long shots yet in my hunting venue, but accuracy is quite good and longer shots could be taken with confidence. I use a premium 2x pistol scope.