General question on gas checks and brands . . . thanks

[bedbugbilly]

I've never used gas checks . . . the more reading I do on them I keep asking . . . "O.K. Why not?"

I bought some aluminum 35 gas checks from a member here who sells them to use in making some 38 Spl. shot shells. I'm getting ready to get an order in to Titan and want to get one of Lee's newer 358-200 molds which is a GC mold - will try the heavier boolit and use the aluminum GC in my 357 Handi Rifle.

I just picked up a 30/30 . . been wanting to reload that caliber for years. I have one lighter weight Lyman mold that is a GC and will get a Lee 150 grain GC mold to use as well (Winchester 94 Ranger). Not going to push them hard but figured I might as well add GCs to my experience. I will also be playing with some PB boolits with light plinking loads.

I had a chance to get a box of Hornady .30 caliber copper gas checks from an acquaintance to use in the 30/30. I looked them up in MidwayUSA and I see that they carry both Hornady and Lyman. In looking at the 30 caliber GCs for example . . . Hornady GC run $34.49/1,000 and the Lyman GC run $48.49/1,000. Hmmm . (And had I not had the opportunity to get these GC, I would have just gone back to where I got the 35 aluminum checks from the member here and ordered 30 GC as I'm sure they would be just fine for what I'm doing - and will do so when I use up the Hornadys I got).

Looking at the illustrations, both look the same - copper - crimp on with what I will describe as "teeth" to grip the base.

So what is the difference between a Hornady and a Lyman copper gas check? i.e. what justifies the higher price on the Lyman gas checks? Made from thicker material? A higher "profit margin" or wholesale cost? Can you really tell a difference between the two in use?

I'm not complaining about the price of them, etc. nor what a company charges . . it's their perogative and "profit" is not a dirty word. But it just seems like when a person pulls them up (on Midway's page or any other catalog) . . . the difference in the price per 1,000 would direct 99.99% of the buyers to the Hornady gas checks. If there is really no difference in quality, materials and performance . .. seems like a "no brainer" which one you'd want. Or is there a difference?

Thanks for educating me on this . . . I'm just curious.

[Bent Ramrod]

Ideal was the first company to apply gas checks to their mould designs. The company's owner, John Barlow, had invented the gas check in order to make cast boolits viable in the new era of smokeless powders and higher pressures and velocities. Originally, it was a small brass cup which slid over the gas check shank at the base of the boolit.

Barlow's notion was that the check was to stay on the boolit until it had cleared the barrel, and then was to fall off in the manner of a black powder wad. What happened, given the variances in dimensions of the cavities in moulds and the punches and dies in the check making machines, was that some checks fell off and some stuck on the base of the boolit until it impacted on the target. This degraded accuracy somewhat, but Ideal, and later Lyman, continued to sell the straight shanked gas checks of the original Barlow design. They did allow higher velocities when smokeless loads were used, which was the reason for the invention in the first place.

Hornady invented the crimp on gas check, which presses into the gas check shank and cannot be removed afterwards. I always had better average accuracy from the same boolits and loads using Hornady checks rather than Lyman/Ideal checks, although I'm not opposed to using either. Other people must have had the same experiences, because the Lyman/Ideal Barlow designed checks disappeared from the market a few years back and Lyman started selling crimp on checks.

All I can surmise about the price differential is that Lyman is trying to pay off the new check making machinery and may have to pay Hornady a license fee for using their patented design. I've used the Lyman crimp on checks and found them indistinguishable from the Hornady checks. I'd go with the lowest price, myself, but I also am not averse to the original Barlow checks if the price is "affordable" enough.

[high standard 40]

I don't have proof to back it up, just going from what I heard some time ago, but I heard that Hornady produces the checks for Lyman and then Lyman has to add in their profit. Like I said though, no solid proof of this.

[TCFAN]

I have been told that the Lyman and Hornady gas checks are the same. They are both made by Hornady.I have no idea why the Lyman gas check cost more.I make my own aluminum gas checks and buy Gator checks for the calibers that I don't shoot as much.............Terry

[Boolit_Head]

I'm trying a small bag of the Gator checks I picked up somewhere if I like them NOE sells them for $24/1000 for 30 cal.

[SniderBoomer]

Can the home-made checks have some process applied to form on them a crimp-edge so they 'bite' in and stay on like Hornady? One for you toolmakers to think about? Even something that has to be done low-volume and slow by hand for Target loads would be great.

I love Hornady checks, but they are becoming un-affordable now. Where I live, the big 45's are over £61 a 1000 now, that's around 9 cents a pop added to the cost of a round.

[bedbugbilly]

Thank you everybody for your replies - greatly appreciate it. I'm anxious to try them once I get them. The "history" on the gas check was great and some very interesting information!

Bent Ramrod - where are you at in southern AZ? We have a place in Sahuarita - between Tucson & Green Valley. Haven't been able o get out there yet this winter as my wife has had some health issues - hopefully we'll be able to leave here in a couple of weeks . . . now if the weather will just cooperate between here and there as we drive to and from.

Thanks again everyone.

SniderBoomer - that's a good question. If a crimp of some kind couldn't be applied to those - I wonder what would happen if you put a small drop of lock tite or similar on the base of the boolit before you stuck the gas check on and ran it through a sizer? Just thinking out loud from someone who has no idea if it would work or not . . . of it the heat on the base would make the lock tite worthless?

[MT Gianni]

I am of the opinion that checks are not needed until you run over 1600 fps if fit is good, or if the mold has a check base. I have a few I have run barebottommed but very few, 358156 being the big exception. If I am not pushing a bullet over 1600 fps my mold does not need to be one with a gc. I am of the opinion that a checked base on a 38 special is throwing pennies downrange unnecessarily. On a 357 it can make some sense with a blackhawk at heavy loads or out of a rifle.

[Blammer]

I have gator checks for sale, 30 cal $22 per 1,000. :)

[mike69]

I was thinking of getting some gator gas checks are they as good or better than the hornady checks I have seen them cheaper than hornady prices

[Ole Joe Clarke]

I've used Hornady gas checks for years, on .357, .41 and 44 mag. I want the crimp on type and don't want them flying off a bullet. I'd rather pay for something that works and not have to didle with it.

[Ben]

If a g/c has to have adhesive to stay on, the g/c material isn't thick enough ( or the g/c shank on the bullet is too small ) . If it were thick enough the sizing process would lock it in place and there would be no need for adhesive.

[dragon813gt]

Can the home-made checks have some process applied to form on them a crimp-edge so they 'bite' in and stay on like Hornady? One for you toolmakers to think about? Even something that has to be done low-volume and slow by hand for Target loads would be great.

There is no need for this. Hornady makes a one size fits all check. The material is typically thicker than it needs to be. When you make your own checks you control every aspect of it. W/ the proper material thickness the checks are crimped on during the sizing process and won't be coming off. The sizing die is all the crimp you need if you made the checks properly.

[runfiverun]

the difference is lyman puts hornady checks in a lyman box and hornady puts hornady checks in a hornady box.
lymans box is fancier and cost 10 bucks more to make [maybe,, just speculation on my part]

[robg]

in my .357mag ive used gator and hornady checks ,the gator checks are a little harder( the copper ones) both work well.

[6622729]

in my .357mag ive used gator and hornady checks ,the gator checks are a little harder( the copper ones) both work well.

I am using copper Gator checks on my 30 caliber for 300AAC supers until my PatMarlins Check Maker dies arrive. The Gator checks have been absolutely flawless. They pop on my Lee 312-155-2R cast bullets perfectly and lock on for good going through the Lee .309 sizing die. Tumble lubed with 45/45/10, gas check applied and sized, relube with 45/45/10 and load. Obviously you let the lube dry overnight each time. I'm shooting about 1850fps.

[robg]

i found same load boolit etc shot 2" higher with gator checks compared to hornady.i think there upping the pressure due to being that bit stiffer

[WILCO]

Can the home-made checks have some process applied to form on them a crimp-edge so they 'bite' in and stay on like Hornady? One for you toolmakers to think about? Even something that has to be done low-volume and slow by hand for Target loads would be great.

This might help:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?83357-Disk-Maker-GC-Forming-Die-and-GC-Trimmer




http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89922&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1403144154 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89922&d=1386506649)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89923&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1403144154 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89923&d=1386506686)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89924&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1403144154 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=89924&d=1386506693)

[Maven]

I have gator checks for sale, 30 cal $22 per 1,000. :)

Slightly OT, but Blammer's GC's are well worth it. I've been using them for years (several different calibers) with nary a problem.

[Don Fischer]

So what is the difference between a Hornady and a Lyman copper gas check? i.e. what justifies the higher price on the Lyman gas checks? Made from thicker material? A higher "profit margin" or wholesale cost? Can you really tell a difference between the two

Hornady gas check's are made and/or distributed by Hornady. Lyman's are made and/or distributed by Lyman. :-)

[Bent Ramrod]

Bedbugbilly,

I'm west of Tucson, almost to Robles Junction.

[krems]

I have used hornady and Gator checks only.....I havn't checked for a while but does hornady make a check for a 40 cal rifle yet...such as 40-65, 40-82 etc. When I was loading for these I had to use the Gator checks because hornady didn't make a proper sized one. I like to use gas checks when shooting smokeless CB loads out of rifles. Probably not necessary but most of my molds require a check. I find it odd that Lyman would charge more for the same GC as Hornady.