Remington 700 or Win 70?

[5Shot]

I figure this will get a million looks...

Looking at a couple rifles here local and have this burning question:

1990's Era Remington or a Pre-Portugal FN Winchester? I figure either of these would be better than either Remington or Winchester new (and no, I am not going to look at a Tikka :P).

Going with 308 Win, will shoot cast and jacketed. It's going to be a 20-300yd hunting rifle, so tack driving accuracy isn't a must, but will be appreciated.

Thanks

[Lefty SRH]

What are the barrel lengths and the twist rates?

[5Shot]

22", 1:10 on the Remington, 1:12 on the Winchester. I know the "Plus" of the 1:12 for cast, and I don't plan on shooting 200+ grn jacketed out of this gun, so I don't need the 1:10. I don't plan on shooting cast at 2800fps, so I don't think the 1:10 is a real detriment.

More interested in the levels of quality for these two. My gut says Rem, since the Winny has the FN changes, but the Winny has controlled round feed, which is a nice plus.

[country gent]

Both are good rifles and will acomplish what you want to do (from your description) with some load testing and or work up. Handle both and see which one "feels" right to you. Some stock desighns length of pull and forearm shapes just seem to fit better than others. Wieght may factor in also depending on the type of hunting you do. A walking rifle you may want a lighter rifle, A rifle used from a blind or stand you may want something a little heavier weight. Also heavier weight will reduce recoil somewhat. Also if possible try the triggers and see which one feesl best to you. If a bore scope is available a look in the bores may give an idea which is the better rifle from the wear use standpoint. Seeing the throat lead and the erossion may be a deciding factor.

[northmn]

Don't have first hand experience with Winchester 70's but shot a 270 700 Remington for years and took a lot of deer with it. It was a good rifle and took game at the ranges you mention. Many like the W70 due to its double claw extraction. Brother in law had one in 308 and sold it because someone else "wanted it more than he did". Were I to pick between the 2 I would pick the one that took my fancy at the moment.

DP

[fatnhappy]

winchester. I've had a dog in each flavor but both have been very good to me. I've always enjoyed the subjective feel of the winchester action over the remington. FWIW, I particulary like the winchester featherweights.

my 2¢

YMMV

[Pens402]

Get both, decision done.

[MT Gianni]

I prefer the Winchester safety.

[runfiverun]

I'd have no problems looking at a new Winchester.
I was actually looking at one the other day and I'm actually impressed with them, I wouldn't hesitate to buy one.


I like the featherweights too.
I didn't know the Winchesters had a 1-12 [shrug] I woulda probably bought one by now if I had.
all these 10 twist rifles are only shooting cast to 2400 fps and holding realistic groups comparable to their jacketed loads.
If only I had a 12 twist rifle I could rule the world and magically shrink my groups by 50% dang the luck.

[5Shot]

The Winchester is a Featherweight, as I am looking to build a very lightweight woods gun. I plan to swap out the stock on which ever gun I buy to a McMillan Compact Edge in the future.

[Scharfschuetze]

I certainly would buy the Winchester if it is in good shape.

I've used the Remington 700 in both the M24 and the Mk 13 SWSs as well as match rifles in 40X guise. I used the Army's and my rifles hard and experienced a few failures that I've not seen in the Winchester Model 70 design. My main complaint with the Remington design is that the cams that govern primary extraction and final chambering are not as strong as the Model 70's cams. I've actually worn through the face hardening on a Remington match rifle from rapid fire on the National Match course of fire. It now sits forlornly in the closet. I've also had a few issues with the extractor on Model 700s. It just isn't as strong as a Model 70's (push or controled feed designs) and I've seen not only one of mine fail but also a couple of them fail on Army M24s. I ended up having a Sako extractor installed on my old 40X NM rifle to solve that issue.

The Winchester in addition to having robust cams on the bolt (a la Mauser and Springfield) and strong easily replaced extractors has a trigger design that will last just about forever too. I can't speak for their new Model 70 trigger, but the one you are considering will have the older bullet proof design. With good match bullets, my two Winchester Model 70 match rifles (308 and 30/06) will both stay 1/2 MOA through 300 yards and further and will easily shoot cleans at 600 yards if I read the wind right. I have worn a barrel or two out with them.

If both designs are trued (squared) up, bedded properly and shot well, there probably isn't much difference between them as far as accuracy goes. On the other hand, the Model 70 was derived from a military rifle and the Model 700 was designed by engineers trying to reduce production costs for Remington.

One final note: Stay away from Winchester rifles produced between 1964 and 1968. On model 70s, they will be sans the "G" prefix found on Model 70s produced from about 1968 on. The Winchester rifles produced during this short span of time are just not worth spending a dime on. Broken firing pins, extractors and followers are legion among them. Harvard educated MBAs at Winchester were probably behind that mess.

[5Shot]

Unfortunately, this particular Winchester is from S. Carolina, so it will have the MOA trigger, and not the more simple design. It will likely be switched to a Timney if I go with the Winchester. It is from 2011 I believe, and is unfired, so I don't have to worry about abuse.

[pietro]

.


IME, the Remington 700 will be more accurate than the Winchester Model 70; but (being the Rifleman's Rifle) is the better fitted gun.

My 1980's FW's have all weighed about 6-1/2lbs, bareback (w/o scope) - which should be plenty light enough for a .308 (if it were a .243, then I'd like it even lighter).



.

[Bigslug]

I think there's a great deal of wisdom in Country Gent's post #4. . .For your intended purpose, it really is kind of a Ford/Chevy sort of argument. Comfy/cozy issues are probably more important than the mechanical ones.

Since we're not talking about a true pre-'64 on the Winchester, there's stuff I like and dislike about both:

The Winchester safety actually grabs and locks the firing pin to the rear independent of what is going on with the trigger.

I really don't like the post-'64 extractor system. I also REALLY don't like the original Remington extractor that was held in with a rivet (still is on the magnums). i've seen a number of them break at the rivet hole. The new Remingtons are a snap-in piece of spring steel that, while you have to destroy it taking one out, you can at least replace fairly easily - though I've never seen one break.

Barrel-to-receiver threads are tighter on the Remingtons I've seen taken down. Overall, there's possibly more accuracy potential on a factory gun from Big Green simply because it's easier for a robot to turn a square face on a round action than it is a flat bottomed one, but the short version is, factory hunting rifles are a **** shoot. Sometimes you get the Monday morning or Friday afternoon one.

Triggers. . .I can't tell you a thing about the new Winchesters. Remingtons - They've had so much bad press that a lot of guys replace them before they even fire a shot. As Scharfshuetze says in post 11, a lot of the 700 was designed specifically to make a cheap hunting rifle. Much of what they came up with also makes it a potentially very good rifle, but the trigger system seems to continually be a pooch they insist on screwing. I run the stock trigger in my hunting 700 - one of the discontinued, externally adjustable X-mark Pro's that possibly was in the recall for the potential of having too much sealing glue placed on the internal screws. It works and pulls nice, but it's not one of those engineering masterpieces of Mauser or Browning that you'd go to war with.

[Pb Burner]

I've had a M700 for a long time, I really like it.
A few years back a coworker was hard up and sold me a new in box M70 featherweight classic. I wasn't in the market right then for a rifle, just kind of doing him a favor as he needed money quick. I'm really glad I did!
Its a long action(30-06), and has become my favorite hunting rifle. I like it much more than the M700 now. Smoother action, easily adjustable trigger, and I much prefer the three position safety over the Remington safety now that I've used it for awhile.
I'd go with the Winchester if they are equal in price and condition, probably even if the Winchester was a few more dollars.

[Mauser48]

The winchester model 70's they are turning out now are excellent. They are made by FN which is an excellent company. For the 90's ones your looking at I would get the 700 if you plan on customizing it.

[5Shot]

Ended up going with the M70. It was within $100 of the 700 and was NIB vs used. I'll know if I made the right decision in a week or so.

[Artful]

Good Choice - give us report back on how you do with it.

[Lloyd Smale]

my two favorite brands. If you would have asked this 15 years ago I would have probably answered Remington. Seems that remingtons have gone down hill a bit and Winchesters have gone up the hill. Right now id say the Winchester is the better of the two but does cost a bit more.

[Larry Gibson]

Ended up going with the M70. It was within $100 of the 700 and was NIB vs used. I'll know if I made the right decision in a week or so.

Excellent choice. The 12" twist will stabilize a 200 gr jacketed or cast RN just fine. The .308W (civilian version of the 7.62 NATO) first came out with a 12" twist in the M70 and they stuck to that twist. Remington went with a 10" twist because they didn't want to manufacture and inventory other than the 10" twist. The 10" twist certainly works fine for jacketed with the exception that slower twists are preferred for most match rifles. Remington now uses a 12" twist .308Ws on some models because of that. I also have weaned several M700s out of my gun safe and have increased the number of M70s. I don't find the M700 sporters to shoot any better or more accurately than M70 sporters. Odds are your M70 feather weight won't shoot 10 shot groups as good as a M700 PS but that's apples to oranges. Good choice again.

Larry Gibson

[GabbyM]

I have two Remington's from back when they're reputation was still good. One M70 Sporter in 30-06 from a couple years ago.

I lost my love for Remington's a few years back. Stuck a case. It had been fired in an old barrel and I just installed a new Shillen on this 243 M-700 V. Smacked up on the bolt handle and it broke off.
They are supposed to be silver soldered on but all I could see was yellow plastic looking stuff. Either flux or they used glue.

[5Shot]

I've got scope mounts & brass on the way and will be ordering a mold after I make a pound slug for it.

[singleshot]

I figure this will get a million looks...

Looking at a couple rifles here local and have this burning question:

1990's Era Remington or a Pre-Portugal FN Winchester? I figure either of these would be better than either Remington or Winchester new (and no, I am not going to look at a Tikka :P).

Going with 308 Win, will shoot cast and jacketed. It's going to be a 20-300yd hunting rifle, so tack driving accuracy isn't a must, but will be appreciated.

Thanks
I would not overlook a new winny...sweet fit, finish and machine work.

[MapleHill]

5Shot, I have 6 Mdl 70s and 5 Mdl 700s, including 2 Pre-64s, and a S.Carolina Win. My favorites are the Winchesters. I have had 2 featherweights (still have 1) and they are simply beautiful rifles. Fit/Finish, accuracy is as good as anything I have. The Rems are nice, just more utilitarian, or plain, than the Winchesters, especially the Featherweights. Not that that is a bad thing, but the FW are gorgeous. I have shied away from the Portugal 70s. They look spectacular, it is just the idea of them moving them overseas that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I have a FW in 6.5X55 from the last yr. of the New Haven Manufacture...too nice to take to the woods, but I shoot it some (I am not rich enough to be a collector!)

[Petrol & Powder]

Ended up going with the M70. It was within $100 of the 700 and was NIB vs used. I'll know if I made the right decision in a week or so.
Good deal!

[cuzinbruce]

Good luck on the Winchester. I have been hunting with one for 20 years and it is great. Featherweight, .30/06, post '64 but not real early. Beech stock stained to look like walnut, aluminum trigger guard. Accurate, holds it's zero, never done anything to it other than clean it. I have never had the action out of the stock.

[GabbyM]

5Shot, I have 6 Mdl 70s and 5 Mdl 700s, including 2 Pre-64s, and a S.Carolina Win. My favorites are the Winchesters. I have had 2 featherweights (still have 1) and they are simply beautiful rifles. Fit/Finish, accuracy is as good as anything I have. The Rems are nice, just more utilitarian, or plain, than the Winchesters, especially the Featherweights. Not that that is a bad thing, but the FW are gorgeous. I have shied away from the Portugal 70s. They look spectacular, it is just the idea of them moving them overseas that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I have a FW in 6.5X55 from the last yr. of the New Haven Manufacture...too nice to take to the woods, but I shoot it some (I am not rich enough to be a collector!)

Where are you reading this propaganda? FN does not make these M-70's in Portugal.

[5Shot]

Where are you reading this propaganda? FN does not make these M-70's in Portugal.

Uhhh...yeah they do.

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x401/chiefbsa/imagejpg1_zpsc57afa90.jpg

[MapleHill]

Where are you reading this propaganda? FN does not make these M-70's in Portugal.

I've had them in my hand. Made in Portugal stamped in the barrel

[5Shot]

Mine says "Made in USA"...one of the last. Won't buy one with Portugal anywhere on it. Gotta have some principles!

[MapleHill]

IIRC, they moved the manufacture of the mdl 70 to Portugal @2013 or so. I have to agree with 5Shot, just the principle of the Model 70 Winchester being made overseas is gut wrenching...What is more American than Baseball, Apple Pie and Winchester! I suppose it will be like anything else, eventually people will forget about it. They are absolutely beautiful firearms...what a shame.

[Uncle R.]

I got to shoot an FN model 70 in .243 a couple of years ago. It may well have been the most accurate out-of-the-box bolt rifle I've ever fired in a light sporter configuration. I shot several groups at 100 yards and they all ran very close to 1/2" with factory ammo. It was an outstanding rifle in every way and I wished it was mine. I got to shoot a brand new .300 Win Mag model 70 about the same time and it was similarly accurate, again with factory ammo.

I love my 700 Remingtons but I doubt you made a mistake with that FN. I hope you like it.

Uncle R.

[MarkP]

IIRC, they moved the manufacture of the mdl 70 to Portugal @2013 or so. I have to agree with 5Shot, just the principle of the Model 70 Winchester being made overseas is gut wrenching...What is more American than Baseball, Apple Pie and Winchester! I suppose it will be like anything else, eventually people will forget about it. They are absolutely beautiful firearms...what a shame.

I agree! I try to avoid buying foreign manufactured items, not always possible.

FWIW -- I bought a Rem 700 ADL Varmint in 308 Win (2014 Dick's Doorbuster) This finish was much better than I expected it to be and is actually fairly comparable to my 1990 - 1994 circa Remington custom shop rifles & XP100's. Some of the new matte finishes have the appearance of a sprayed on finish. The finish on the 700 V looks like a blued bead blasted finish. Now the newer 11-87's finish is pretty ugly and rough especially the top surface of the vent rib. Anyway I just got around to shooting the 700 V for the first time a few weeks ago. With the cheap 4 -12 x scope and rings that it came with I was holding 2.5" groups at 225 yds with vintage Hornady (Frontier) 190 gr BTHP match ammo. Also shot some factory 165 gr SP Light Magnum ammo with similar results. I was fairly impressed, maybe since I had lower expectations and I paid right at $414 including tax.

I own both Rem 700's and Win M 70's post and pre 64. I like the Win safety but the Rem is easier to release quietly in a hunting situation. In my opinion I feel the Rem 700 is more like a small block Chevy of rifle with several choices of parts and aftermarket options as compared to the others.

[GabbyM]

Uhhh...yeah they do.

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x401/chiefbsa/imagejpg1_zpsc57afa90.jpg

Well that's just plum depressing.
Glad I got one still made in USA.

[5Shot]

Well that's just plum depressing.


Totally agree.

[MapleHill]

I agree! I try to avoid buying foreign manufactured items, not always possible.

FWIW -- I bought a Rem 700 ADL Varmint in 308 Win (2014 Dick's Doorbuster) This finish was much better than I expected it to be and is actually fairly comparable to my 1990 - 1994 circa Remington custom shop rifles & XP100's. Some of the new matte finishes have the appearance of a sprayed on finish. The finish on the 700 V looks like a blued bead blasted finish. Now the newer 11-87's finish is pretty ugly and rough especially the top surface of the vent rib. Anyway I just got around to shooting the 700 V for the first time a few weeks ago. With the cheap 4 -12 x scope and rings that it came with I was holding 2.5" groups at 225 yds with vintage Hornady (Frontier) 190 gr BTHP match ammo. Also shot some factory 165 gr SP Light Magnum ammo with similar results. I was fairly impressed, maybe since I had lower expectations and I paid right at $414 including tax.

I own both Rem 700's and Win M 70's post and pre 64. I like the Win safety but the Rem is easier to release quietly in a hunting situation. In my opinion I feel the Rem 700 is more like a small block Chevy of rifle with several choices of parts and aftermarket options as compared to the others.

New machining process' have made it cheaper to build a better shooting, or as good as, rifle that cost significantly more in the past. A perfect example are then newer Ruger Americans and Savage Axis, for <$400 you get MOA out of the box, or better with some handloading. Compare that to 15yrs or so ago it would cost $600+ for a rifle to shoot like that, and maybe it wouldn't shoot that good. Nowadays with CNC machining other advancements in manufacturing it is commonplace for MOA accuracy in a entry level rifle. Where they save money is fit and finish, some of the stocks are very cheap and the finish is also less than...pretty!

[Scharfschuetze]

I agree! I try to avoid buying foreign manufactured items, not always possible.

Sad that our manufacturing capability and capacity is on the wane. Some of the best Winchesters and Brownings made came from Japan over the last 30 years or so and I'll wager that the Portuguese rifles will be just as good. I'll just hang onto my Pre-64s and call it good I guess.

When I was on a Federal agency, one of my cohorts was from New England. He used to say that if you ever saw the riffraff that got off of the bus at the Colt factory, you'd never buy another Colt. I used to laugh at that, but then look at the issues that Colt has had the last few decades. Management and unions have about run 'em into the ground.

My Pre-64s from the vault. These rifles were the ultimate in drop forged technology and a good work ethic in the factory which produced properly fitted up rifles with assured accuracy. Period scopes or period aperture sights on them enhance the fun factor.

[GabbyM]

Sad that our manufacturing capability and capacity is on the wane. Some of the best Winchesters and Brownings made came from Japan over the last 30 years or so and I'll wager that the Portuguese rifles will be just as good. I'll just hang onto my Pre-64s and call it good I guess.

When I was on a Federal agency, one of my cohorts was from New England. He used to say that if you ever saw the riffraff that got off of the bus at the Colt factory, you'd never buy another Colt. I used to laugh at that, but then look at the issues that Colt has had the last few decades. Management and unions have about run 'em into the ground.

My Pre-64s from the vault. These rifles were the ultimate in drop forged technology and a good work ethic in the factory which produced properly fitted up rifles with assured accuracy. Period scopes or period aperture sights on them enhance the fun factor.

It has nothing to do with our manufacturing capabilities. We invented about all of it.

Has everything to do with the GD Communist trying to ruin this nation.

I had a business about up to speed here in Illinois. Then the state decided to up taxes. Including ordering me to collect sales tax from out of state mail order customers. That shut me down right there. We put that SOB Governor in prison But so what. I seriously get sick and tired of people who can't do 2nd grade math. Then Vote for Communist.

[Scharfschuetze]

Deleted.

[Artful]

Deleted.

- Gone

[jlchucker]

Without a doubt, the handiest Model 70 that I've ever had is the one in my gun safe now. It's a compact model, in 7mm-08. This was a scaled down model, produced just before Winchester folded. This is a little gun with a 20 inch barrel, and I think it holds a round or two less than the full-size models. It came in 308, 243, and 7mm-08 and looks like a shrunken Featherweight. I mostly use leverguns, but for hunting in the open areas, where I might have to take a long shot, that little 7mm-08 is a pleasure to carry around. I used to have one of the lightweight models, in 30-06, and also a full-size, left-handed stainless 30-06. The full size gun, when you put a scope on, is quite heavy. The lightweight is a nice model but they no longer make that configuration. They don't make the compact ones either and I feel fortunate to snap on to a hardly used one that I'm keeping.

[tygar]

That's easy. Dangerous game, M70 "classic" type action. Anything else 700.

[duckey]

Well I love my 700 in ott 6. Have done a few tweaks to it but nothing serious. The mod 70 was used by Carlos Hatcock for some amazing shots. Either of these would make a nice rifle.

[Clay M]

For me, the Mod 70. I have a late 90's Winchester Mod 70 heavy varmint in .308 win, and it is the most accurate centerfire rifle I have ever owned..
It will shoot in the threes for five shots.
I did put a Jewell trigger on it, and have a Leupold MK4 scope.

[tygar]

I like Pre64 type actions & have built many hunting guns on them. But if you want to make an accurate rifle most gunsmiths use M700 actions, for a reason! Now Batt actions or similar are used on a lot of top 1k BR guns but the 700s are still them most prevalent like one of my 1k guns that won the Nationals back in the 90s. (I didn't shoot it).

As for the most accurate, out of the box rifles, Savage is #1, Rem #2, but the Savages are being used in top competition by some exactly as they came out of the box. Hands down on the Savage for accuracy.

[Artful]

When I took a long range tactical shooting class, the instructor told us that Savage put the money into the barrels and that Remington put the money into the action. He said if you envisioned shooting enough to go thru multiple barrels buy the Remington but if you were going just buy one to shoot as is buy the Savage.
And later when he brought in his personal rifle it was a Savage but the Dept issue ones were Remington.

[tygar]

When I took a long range tactical shooting class, the instructor told us that Savage put the money into the barrels and that Remington put the money into the action. He said if you envisioned shooting enough to go thru multiple barrels buy the Remington but if you were going just buy one to shoot as is buy the Savage.
And later when he brought in his personal rifle it was a Savage but the Dept issue ones were Remington.

Absolutely. I buy complete rifle Rem 700s all the time just for the action. Looking for one or 2 right now. Have a 25" heavy brl 308 just looking for a nice snug home. Couple other barrels also looking, can't remember the calibers.

My running mates are always saying I should quit making guns & just buy a Savage & be done with it. For non BR guns I agree, would be way cheaper, but I just like making guns. Don't get me wrong, I have a couple Savages HB varmint & tacticals that are very nice & shoot extremely well but I just prefer the 700s.

[5Shot]

My coyote guns is a Savage and it shoots under 1/2" @ 100yds. I'll see if I like the M70, since this will be my first. Need to get my Talley rings ordered and a Leupy for it.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8649/16389110559_2387d46a61_b.jpg

[GabbyM]

Natchez has some VX3 on sale for $299. I ordered a 1.75x6 for an AR15. They have the VX3 2.5x8 for that price also.

[Artful]

My coyote guns is a Savage and it shoots under 1/2" @ 100yds. I'll see if I like the M70, since this will be my first. Need to get my Talley rings ordered and a Leupy for it.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8649/16389110559_2387d46a61_b.jpg

I would ask if you'd put up a little more full length picture so I can see your camo better.

[5Shot]

I would ask if you'd put up a little more full length picture so I can see your camo better.

This is my HS Precision stock - I may be selling this one in the near future though (the stock).

https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7349/16272699807_fb57d4b0cf_b.jpg

[Artful]

Oh, what are you thinking of changing too?

[5Shot]

Oh, what are you thinking of changing too?

A chassis of some type. This one is great though.

[5Shot]

Picked it up today - it's a really good looking gun, with some nice wood. I do have one question though, as this is my first CRF Winchester.

When I run a dummy round in, it doesn't snap up under the extractor until the bolt is almost full closed - is that how it is supposed to be? I thought it was supposed to pop up into place as soon as it cleared the magazine. If you lay a round loose on top of the magazine, it is a long way from being where it is supposed to be, so even a really stout mag spring wouldn't make a difference.

Not complaining, just wanting to make sure I understand how it is supposed to work.

[waksupi]

Manipulate your bolt faster. They don't like to sneak into the chamber.

[5Shot]

If I do it fast it works great - just wasn't sure if it should be snapping under the extractor sooner.

[GabbyM]

Not clear on your timing description.
What I will recommend as an M70 owner and Ruger M77 plus a CZ-527 owner. Is to push your round down into the mag then let the bolt load it up. As you would be forced to with the old M-98 Mauser. Modified extractor will allow loading with click over. But save that for hunting with five plus one load out.

Insert story here.
My shooting buddy and I. Both bought Ruger M77-VT in 243 then proceeded to blast prairie dogs for a couple years in South Dakota. First thing is to consider white chalky dust. WE would drop a round in then close bolt. Third year out we both encountered the same issue. Our neck sized rounds sometimes did not chamber. We got to looking at our rounds held up to the moon. Yep a bulge on one side. So we had to time them by holding them up to the clouds t see a bulge. Then orienting that to the left. Seams we had worn our chambers out lopsided by the claw pushing the case to the left up against the chamber. By the time we finished up shooting those last 400 rounds the bores were worn clear out so barrels were junk anyway. But a 243 is a 1200 round bore and a 308 is a twelve thousand round barrel. That dust up in SD is some nasty stuff too. But I do not load my Mauser type actions click over head anymore.

[too many things]

the old pre 64 W70 the 2 I have will not "click " over, the round will not eject unless fired.If you just lay a round on the mag and close bolt. extractor wont pick it up I have 2 one in 270 and 06

[5Shot]

I am not trying to do it with a round laying on the mag - that was just for a reference. It would appear that the round doesn't snap under the extractor until it is in the chamber. As the round is pushed forward, and becomes aligned in the the chamber, it is forced up under the extractor. This doesn't happen until the round is almost completely chambered, as there is enough slop with the tapered case to let the back end droop until it is almost home.

[Artful]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZZphk6JWfQ

[Artful]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFtvz_79G9A

[fouronesix]

Just like most Mauser type CRF actions, they like to be cycled with authority. While not obvious in real time….it's common for the round to skitter along half out of the mag and between the rails as it slides into the chamber and still not be fully engaged by the extractor. Matter of fact if studied in detail, almost every one I've seen cycles a little differently…. IMO the variations are normal and different reasons for the variations. There is always some difference as to when the round pops out of the mag and into the full engagement of the extractor. Also common for there to be a difference in that "timing" between last round in mag subjected to minimal follower spring pressure and that of a full mag of 2-3 rounds pushing up with full spring pressure.

As to the question of popping over the rim like a push feed extractor? Some CRFs do and some don't. Most all such extractor faces can be modified to pop over but there's little need for it, IMO. For single round firing, as has been posted, it's best to place fully in mag then cycle the single round into the chamber. Even with a modified CRF extractor that will pop over, there is a chance it could be introducing some headspace into the cartridge if that pop over is a bit stiff. Also, if the strength of the extractor is compromised during the modification and happens to break during cycling then the advantage of reliability is out the window.

[5Shot]

Ready for the range. Mounted a spare Leupold 1-4 in Talley Detachables, but will probably replace with a 1.5x5 VX3 or a 1-4 with a Firedot. Brass showed up yesterday, so it is time to start loading and see what this thing will do...

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1633/24415499212_45e9e651b9_b.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1509/23895627804_09d26b02cd_b.jpg

https://c2.staticflickr.com/2/1502/24497664096_c25eb950c1_b.jpg

[Artful]

That's a nice looking rifle - I hope it shoots as good as it looks

[Scharfschuetze]

Wow! Nice piece of hardware 5Shot.

[Sam Casey]

You have a beauty. I have gone thru same comparisons and concluded that I will buy a controlled feed M70 type rifle in 308. Have not decided which yet .... Winchester, Kimber, Montana, etc. IMO the Montana seems to be the most evolved.

[Motor]

You know I read the first couple posts just now and was thinking about what to say because I've had a few Remington 700s a model 7 and a couple of push feed Winchesters. All were good rifles. Then around 1995 I won a Winchester Classic Sporter. Right out of the box this was the slickest smoothest bind free bolt I have ever worked.

The rifle was a .338 Win mag with BOSS and shot great. Then like like an idiot I traded it in after using it for a few years. :(

OP: That is a NICE rifle. I think you will enjoy it immensely. :)

Motor

[fouronesix]

The M1999 Montana action is very good. The ads are correct- it's kind of a hybrid between a Mauser 98 and a Win 70. Whether its design has great advantage over a Win 70 CRF… who knows? One thing Montana did which I like is retain the old type Winchester trigger. Also, it's slightly easier to chamber ream and set headspace for the Montana than for the Win 70 CRF because of the breeching.

[Sam Casey]

I like the extra heft of M1999 as well. My days of climbing the "foothills" in Wyoming & SD with a pre-64 FWT are past and any new M70 will be used on paper & critters.

[5Shot]

I looked at getting a Montana Rifle, but the only local dealer said they sent everything back due to issues. That and the additional $$$ made me pick the Winchester.

[Sam Casey]

When thinking new Winchester, I had narrowed consideration to M70 Extreme Weather in 308 with thought I would give MOA trigger a try and switch to Timney if I liked the rifle & not trigger.