rebarreling a No4 Mk1 Enfield to 30-40 Krag or 35-303

[bruce drake]

Alright everyone,

I've got DeHaas' book "Bolt-Action Rifles so I know what the pitch rate on the threads of an Enfield Rifle is and I've got a decent BSA action that was made in 1944. The barrel leaves a lot to be desired and I would like to put a fresh barrel on it.

Since new .303 barrels are getting scarce, I'm thinking of buying a .308 blank and having a machinist thread the barrel and chamber it for 30-40 Krag. Dimensionally, I know the two cartridges are similiar, does anyone know if there are any feeding issues with this conversion?

Secondly, I am also debating on a 35-303 wildcat for another #4 that I have but I need to get in touch with someone in the former British Empire it seems to find that chamber reamer and access to a set of dies. I think I might be able to cobble something together from a 35 Whelen die set and a 303 Brit die set but I'm thinking RCBS might have a set built already.

These are the thoughts of a gun nut stuck in Iraq.

Bruce

[wiljen]

This looks like a guy doing what you are thinking of. Might be worth shooting him an email.

http://www.statusguns.com/status_35_303.htm

You might also look at the Martini-Henry forums as more than a few of those were done in 375/303 and other similar rounds.

If I recall OKSMLE here has converted a few to 35-303 and might be good to ask as well.

[Scrounger]

Elwood Epps, a Canadian gunsmith, did a lot of wildcatting on the .303 case. Have you checked to see if he had a .35 Epps or something interesting?
http://www.ellwoodepps.com/
http://tjilpi.typepad.com/tjilpi/2005/11/a_rascals_rifle.html (Not really relevant but an interesting Australian excursion.)

[exblaster]

Check out .35 W.C.F. aka 35 Winchester it is slightly longer than a 30/40 Krag but I have used the Krag cases in my rifle . Brass and dies are available from Buffalo arms.
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,1422.htm

Exblaster

[bruce drake]

Elwood Epps I believe has gone to see the Great Gunsmith in the Sky and his articles and 303british.com was what got me thinking about the conversion.

I hadn't thought of 35 Winchester as it's not a popular round but I could see about doing some internet research on it.

Bruce

[bohica2xo]

I was thinking of opening up the 303 case to .410, and loading the 410660, or 410663 ... Since I have a couple of P14 Enfield actions collecting dust.

B.

[oksmle]

bruce drake .... About 15 years ago a cousin brought me a bunch of pieces of an Enfield #4 Mk 1 & asked that I put them all together but in a .30-40 Krag short rifle. Then he told another cousin about it & cousin #2 also wanted one. But cousin #2 didn't donate any pieces to the project. I had already ordered a .30 cal barrel for cousin #1's rifle & went through three of them before I got one that had the bore dimensions I needed to match an old set of Lyman #311284 molds that I had changed from base to nose pour. Not wanting to go through the same process for cousin #2's barrel, I let them send me a 1 in 12 twist instead of the 1 in 10 like cousin #1's. To make a long story a bit more concise, I'll just say that both rifles were assembled in the proper manner with minimum head spacing & proper wood contact. At 100 yards I wouldn't give you a dimes difference between the two rifles. But the 1 in 12" twist could reach 2000 fps with only a little "tweaking", whereas the 1 in 10" s accuracy would open up after about 1800 fps with WW boolits. We didn't have any feeding problems after the magazines tabs were adjusted properly. About five years ago I did the same thing with another #4 Mk 1, but made it into a "fake" Jungle Carbine with a 1 in 12" twist. I had actually forgotten about the carbine until I read your post. I went out to the garage just now to look in my files for targets fired with that rifle (to give you some current info), & discovered that I have never even fired the carbine. There's a bag of 100 new .30-40 Krag cases marked ".30-40 Enfield Carbine" that has never been opened. The damn thing has been sitting in the gun closet for at least 5 years....
Concerning the 35/303: Check the info listed by others in their posts. It's all good stuff. The only feeding problem I have ever experienced is due to the magazine tabs. With the .30-40 cartridge a bend & a twist will take care of it. But with the 35/303 I have almost always had to relieve the front tabs with a moto tool just a bit. Then follow with some polishing. Just make sure the magazine is always seated firmly & dosen't drop down in the front as the bolt is closed on a cartridge. If that condition exists either replace or repair the magazine so that it has no movement after you snap it into the well.

oksmle

[45 2.1]

I was thinking of opening up the 303 case to .410, and loading the 410660, or 410663 ... Since I have a couple of P14 Enfield actions collecting dust.

B.

What you would have there is about the old 40-60 Maynard round. A conversion i've thought about for years.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Perhaps 10 years ago I spoke with McGowen's in St. Anne, Ill. on rebarrelling a Mark III. The have done a fair number of these in different calibers. They recently sold the barrel making part of their business but are still doing general gunsmithing of a wide variety. I could recommend them without reservation. BvT

[bruce drake]

BvT,

Could you send me the Snail Mail address and a phone number to McGowen's Gunsmith Shop. I'd like to start a dialogue with them as I am about 6-7 months out from leaving this dustbowl and if I have the wife send them the rifle now, it might be ready by the time I get home.

OkSMLE,

Great post. You've let me know to ask for a 1-12 twist barrel blank to be fitted to the action.

Bruce

[bohica2xo]

What you would have there is about the old 40-60 Maynard round. A conversion i've thought about for years.

Yup. I figure it would shoot like my 40-82 does, but without exposing a nice '86 to the rigors of hog hunting...

B.

[Wicky]

I have a mate here who replaced the barrel on his 303 with a 30 cal barrel and rechambered for 303, smaller dia neck of course. This way he can use 30 cal projectiles and still keep the 303 brit case.
Another option.

[newfoundlander]

I'm a proud owner of a DCRA #4 chabered in 7.62 NATO and am about to aquire another. The DCRA rifle is an amazing piece of kit and a real tack driver with jacketed or cast. Although mine is kitted out with Parker Hale/AJ Parker sights, tuned trigger and fairly complex bedding job a friend "rolled his won" #4 in 7.62. and with issue sights and wood it does very well indeed.

Assuming you have a gunsmith lined up to turn your barrel for all you need is a decent action. A MKII action is preffered as a target platform due to its trigger and stiffer bolt but hardly essential. DCRA and others such as the L42 series were fitted with boltheads proved for 7.62 NATO but only because of state law and/or military procedural requirments (change the caliber and the gun must be proved for that calibre). You will need a 7'62 extractor but these are not hard to come by. Unless you mill your receiver to accept a Sterling or L42 mag the rifle will have to be fed singly with the standard mag operating as a loading platform

http://www.telusplanet.net/public/philqgbr/dcra.html

http://www.enfielditis.net/DCRA_PAGE.htm

http://enfieldrifles.profusehost.net/ri15.htm

http://enfieldrifles.profusehost.net/ri15a.htm

[nicholst55]

Alternately, several firms offer .311" barrels, too; you could always make it into a too-expensive .303!

[bruce drake]

I've got no problems with the original caliber. It was the first Military Surplis rifle I bought. I've since bought four others. I just want to experiment a little on one or two.

I've got no hang ups between rimmed and rimless calibers. 30-40 Krag is a viable option for me since I won't have to change anything but the barrel to be up and shooting again.

35-303 or 35 Winchester are still projects in mind. I've only seen 1-20 twist barrels in 35 caliber which I feel would limit the weight of the bullets fired to under 200gr. I'm looking for a 220-250gr bullet in that caliber should I build a rifle like that.

Bruce

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Hi Bruce. It's McGowan Gunsmithing, 5961 Spruce lane, St. Anne , Ill. 60964, ph. 815-937-9816. I don't think they have a website, but you could get wifey to call for a brochure and ask your questions.
I forgot also that a friend here had extensive discussions with them about somewhat duplicating the Aus sniper rifle, heavy barrel, 308/311 barrel on the lithgow action and all was feasible, but expensive decisions are harder to make than cheaper ones.
I was advocation for a "sleeper" in 30-40, heavy barrel under the handguards, kind of thing, but not all great ideas fly. LOL! Regards to you. BvT

[newfoundlander]

Alternately, several firms offer .311" barrels, too; you could always make it into a too-expensive .303!

Actually turning a new .303 barrel could save you some coin. A barrel made with a chamber reamer built to SAAMI specs would alleviate the problem of shortened case life caused by oversized military chambers. I'm actually shopping around right now for a blank for that very purpose.

[Bigjohn]

I believe Lawrance Ordnance received a shipment of No. 4 .303" British barrels in almost new condition.

http://www.lawranceordnance.com

You could enquire if they have any left.

John.

[bruce drake]

What would be the optimal twist for a 35 caliber 200grain boolit to move from 1600-2000fps?

I haven't found any wildcat 35-303 dies on the web yet. Would the sizing and seating dies from a 35 Whelen or 35 Remington die set work to reload the cartridge?

For chambering, I'm thinking I'll have to use a 303 Brit to start and then use a 35 Whelen reamer to finish the neck and throat area.

Again, I'm still 6 months or so from leaving Iraq but I'd like to stage all the components for a nice weekend project during my planned vacation time.

Bruce

[Scrounger]

Have you ever considered a wildcat .35 Whelan using .444 Marlin brass? Rimmed to work well with your action, brass is readily available, just run it through standard .35 Whelan dies for forming and reloading. Data is available, just try to keep it in the 40K range. SSK did a .35 caliber wildcat using .444 brass but I think using the .35 Whelan dies is much preferable to trying to find SSK dies.

[bruce drake]

Scrounger,

Are we talking about marrying a 444 Marlin shell holder with a cutdown 35 whelen sizing and reforming die? I'm not familiar with the length of the 444 or the rim diameter. Is it close to the same diameter as a 303 Brit? Once it's reformed would it be a straight walled case or would it have a bottle neck like a 35 Whelen?

I am interested on what it would look like. Either straight walled or bottle necked it certainly sounds like a viable project. I guess SSK would have the chamber reamer for sale on this.

RCBSand MidWay are looking for $160 for the 35 Winchester dies right now. 35-303 dies are still out there somewhere so this is very interesting swing on what can be done for an Enfield. I intended to keep the heavy loads under 40K which is the original 303 Brit SAAMI limit for the action.

Bruce

[Scrounger]

The .444 rim is the same as the .44 Magnum or nearly so, a little smaller than the .303, so that might be a problem. The .444 is about a quarter inch shorter than the .30-06 so you'd have a shorter neck. Now that I think about it, maybe using .303 or .30-40 Krag brass in .35 Whelan dies might be a better way to go.

[leftiye]

.375 Jdj? .444 brass is almost identical to .303 in head size. Rim is a little smaller IIRC. Check with Brownell's for clymer, and Manson reamers (about $100 for the non wildcat variety). Watch evil bay in the hunting/ accessory/smithing tools section, something might come up cheaper.

[Scrounger]

I've never bought a reamer but I wouldn't hesitate to buy one if I had a use for it. I'd buy it at dealer's cost from Brownell's, use it, then sell it on Ebay and probably get 90% of my money back.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Actually you are getting close to the 9.5 X 56.7 M-S of 1910, of which the 375 JDJ (with rim) is a virtual clone, and in the contender works at the same low 40K psi level of the original M-S round. It was also known as the 375 rimless N.E. 2 1/4 in Brit speak. I have a custom reamer by Dave Manson specified to work with Redding custom dies and cases to be formed from Remington 35 Whelen brass. It is a very accurate cartridge in my custom Rem 700 Classic, 12 inch twist, 375 grain spire point bullet.

Unfortunately I never played with it looking at Enfields when I had Enfields to play with. I could send you a dummy if you were serious. It does not have 453 base diameter like the 303, rather 473, but the length is right for the enfield mag, and the rim is ok too.

BTW McGowen can do the 35 and others on the 303, and likely make you dies too. BvT

[bruce drake]

I'll likely call McGowans after my wife tells me my IRS rebate check has returned from President Bush's Jumpstart Plan. At least the money will be used to by a local prodict and not something built in China.

Right now, I'm looking at a barrel, dies, reamer and a chambering. I can pull the old barrel and put the new one on myself and mill the extractor slot for the end of barrel.

I primarily will need the proper threads put on the barrel blank and a reamer made to chamber the new barrel. A good thing about the Enfield is the replaceable bolt head that controls the headspace. I've got several sizes to choose from already from 0-3.

Bruce

[S.B.]

I've got an original magazine, clip guild, and extractor for a conversion to .308 NATO, if interested email me?

[bruce drake]

S.B.

Thanks for the offer but I intend to keep this in a rimmed caliber. Someone else might want to convert to a rimless extractor though.

Bruce

[CptnBarney]

Bruce,
First post on this site ... hope this helps as I'm a bit of a 35cal "nut"! The 303/35 was one of the least popular of the 303based wildcats in Australia but two versions nevertheless existed. A straight necking up of the 303British, plus an improved version with greater shoulder diameter and sharper shoulder.

Once I can finance it I'll be building a 303/35 on a No4 donor action. Most 'smiths can do the chambering using a 35cal neck/throater and the 303British reamer ... so it doesn't require the expense of a custom reamer. Dies are best done using a set of Lee dies in 303British with the neck opened ... any competent smith can do this. Avoiding the need for custom die and reamer saves a fair bit on what is essentially a cheap conversion.

A friend has just completed the conversion as described above but hasn't found time for load development. My fiddling with the cases however showed a lesser capacity than a 358Win ... I'd say it would be closer to a 356Win when we finally get it up and running. Perhaps closer to a 35Rem if you used a SMLE action ... but with 10 in the magazine box and the slick Enfield action ... its a lot of firepower, plus can be recharged with the stripper clips!

Another option if you wanted to chase more 'horsepower' is to use the 7.62x54R case as the basis for a 35cal. Necked up, from memory, the larger case gave a capacity between the 358Win and 35Whelen.
Cheers and I hope that helped!
CB

[bruce drake]

CB,

THanks for the good first post and welcome to the party. Good Forum to be in with.

I was comparing the case diameters of 35 Remington and 303 British and just like you said, I can do it two ways.

One way is to add the 35cal pilot to a 303 Brit Chamber Reamer which would give me a 303 Brit chamber with a neck expanded to roughly .387. I would have to have the throat worked on a little bit in front of the neck for .359 to allow some room for chambering the 220gr bullets I'm thinking of using.

The Second and probably easier if you measure twice and cut once, would be to run a 35 Remington chamber reamer 2.222" into the chamber. This will definitely make the case be a blown out nearly straight 35 caliber case after fireforming as the original 303 Brit case is .401 in diameter and the 35 Rem case .405 in diameter. If I do this I'll basically be shooting a 35 Remington case that has been extended and is rimmed as the 35 Rem case is 1.920" in length versus the 303Brit cases' length of 2.222". This second versus would have the same neck length as the 35 Rem (.337") which is .005" longer than the 303 Brit.

I figure I could fireform with a mild load of Unique and a wax pellet and then neck-size and reload with 35 Remington dies after that. Of course, after fireforming a couple of cases, I intend to have LEE make a custom die for me so that the entire cartridge can be reformed when needed or when I need to make new cases from 303 Brit or 30-40Krag.

Now I just need to buy the parts and have them stacked up at the house until I get back from Iraq this winter.

Bruce

[S.B.]

I'll likely call McGowans after my wife tells me my IRS rebate check has returned from President Bush's Jumpstart Plan.
Bruce


Harry is right in my neighborhood. St. Anne is just up the road from me.

[smokemjoe]

dupage parts company in SGN has new barrels in 303 for $40.00

[exblaster]

Bruce I am back with the 35 WCF . I looked on http://www.buffaloarms.com/ and the die set is $67.19. This die set will load the 35 WCF full length or the 30/40 necked up.
I shoot everything as far as boolit weight, from 125 gr to 250gr in my 95 Win. the 125 shoots about min of grouse at 30 yrds. The heaver over 165 to 200 will knock most black tail deer down and thy stay down. The 200 to 250 do a good job on elk. I do favor J bullets for elk as I am old and fat and don't like to carry an elk very far now days.
Well enough of my prattle.


Thank you for your service.
Exblaster

[Frank46]

Bruce Drake, ok how about a 375 flanged 2 1/2 for your enfield project?. Get to launch big gobs of lead and have a blast. Or neck up the 303 to 375 and have a set of dies made up. The brits did something like that with the #1MKIII when some were converted to sporters. I have seen a few on the auction sites and at the british militaria forums. Usually have a 5-6 round mag and all sorts of sights on the bbl. Since the origional conversions still used the origional magazines feeding was not an issue. Food for thought while you're in iraq. You probably get a good 300gr 375 dia bullet mould made up. NEI or Mountain molds could certainly do that.,Frank

[bruce drake]

Exblaster and Frank46,

Sorry for the delay on getting back to you. Lost track of the thread for a little while. I'm about 3 months out from coming home and I'll push the rifle out to the gunsmith when I get home.

Bruce

[sav300]

Bruce drake.am building a 444marlin on a smle #1 mk111 action and the pressure is less than the 303 and gunsmith is happy to do the work.Try Jansu Arms for Simplex master dies in 303/35.
www.janse.com.au

[Southern Son]

Sav300, is it Jansa Arms or Jansu Arms, this is the one on Bexley Road somewhere near Hurstville, is it? Not trying to be picky, but if Bruce starts searching for the wrong one, it could take a while.

[CptnBarney]

sav300,
Who is the gunsmith? I've just ordered a No4Mk1 in 303/270 to be rebarrelled as a 303/35. Interested in who can do a 444Marlin or 45/90 on another No4. I've only ever seen one 444Marlin in a No4 and getting it to feed required some creative 'smithing. 'smith doing it at the time basically said if you were paying for the work, you wouldn't be doing it. He was building it for himself so it was a labour of love.

My 'smith on the 303/35 will be opening a set of Lee RGB 303British and Lyman 303/25 dies for $50.
Cheers...
Con

[bruce drake]

I've found a barrel maker that is willing to thread a blank for an enfield here in the States. Now I have to convince them to let me thread a 35 caliber blanks as he stated he was only willing to thread a .311 barrel. I told him that I was willing to buy it only if he threaded it the way I wanted it.

PAC-NOR Barrels by the way. They have a good reputation among highpower shooters here in the States. I'm looking forward to having the barrel made. THey even said they could thread for an Arisaka if I sent the stub of the old barrel along for them to measure. I might make a 358 Winchester out of an old T99 Arisaka I have.

Bruce

[exblaster]

How short are you Bruce? I hope you are not still in the field.


Exblaster

[bruce drake]

Still Blasting,

Roughly 100 days left of one of the wonderful 15 month deployments. Made the year marker this week. Can't you tell how excited I am about reaching that milestone...

Yeah, I'm looking forward to getting back to casting.

Bruce

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have a mate here who replaced the barrel on his 303 with a 30 cal barrel and rechambered for 303, smaller dia neck of course. This way he can use 30 cal projectiles and still keep the 303 brit case.
Another option.

This is pretty much the easiest way of getting the thing going. A lot of guys get second hand full bore/Palma style barrels off target shooters and use them, the target guys give them the flick weay befpre they run out of useful life.

Personally, I'd be looking for a genuine Bbl (I have a newbie in teh safe, but I'm in Australia and I ain't selling it). Bit of a hassle getting one, but you can relax and not be worrying about making a mistake and firing a factory round and pressure, etc.

How bad is your Bbl? Maybe you could set it back a ways and re-chamber it.

Four Fingers.

[sambar hunter]

G'Day, just joined. I have a303/35 and a 444 marlin on smle #3 actions. Both work well. If you weld a 410 mag in 303 mag it will hold 3 444rounds and feed ok.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have a mate here who replaced the barrel on his 303 with a 30 cal barrel and rechambered for 303, smaller dia neck of course. This way he can use 30 cal projectiles and still keep the 303 brit case.
Another option.


This is occasionally done here, mostly using discarded Full Bore Target Barrels (Long range Palma style matches) which always have plenty of hunting / informal target shooting life left. They generally have 1 in 12 twists, but the 1 in 14 1/2 was also popular. They are generally free, but usually need to be reduced in thickness. The beauty of doing this is that there are no feeding / ejection issues as the only difference is neck/bullet diameter.

I'm thinking that 303 Bbls would be pretty easy to get in Afghanastan, got any buddies serving there?

Hurry home.

Mick, aka Four Fingers.

[hunter64]

Funniest conversion of a Mark4 was a .410 shotgun. I was out at the trap range part of our gun club and I couldn't believe my eyes, here was a kid with a .303 on the the trap line. He had to prove that it wasn't a rifle and was indeed a shotgun to the amazement of all that were present he did very well with his new found shotgun. It feed and extracted just perfectly and he mentioned that they had to be precise reloads or new only, couldn't be flawed in anyway or they wouldn't work thru the action. Funny as all get out.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I believe Lawrance Ordnance received a shipment of No. 4 .303" British barrels in almost new condition.

http://www.lawranceordnance.com

You could enquire if they have any left.

John.

Simon is a good ol' boy thats for sure. Speaks like a toff, because he obviously went to the right schools, but loves his military rifles. When the aussie equivalentof the NRA went around the shops trying to raise money to fight the proposed gun laws in 1996, Simon pulled his chequebook out and wrote a cheque for $10,000.

If you visit the 303 page, you will see an article about re-chambering to 7.62x54R. Solves a lot of the problems that crop up with the 303.

[StrawHat]

If you visit the 303 page, you will see an article about re-chambering to 7.62x54R. Solves a lot of the problems that crop up with the 303.


FFoD,

To which 303 page are you referring?

Thanks

[Four Fingers of Death]

It used to be called the 303 page. I can't find it at all now, which is disappointing. They had good articles on reloading the 303, neck sizing, etc, building a scope mount out of angle iron, the 303 Epps also featured pretty heavily.

steve@303british.com

This is another 303 site, not bad either, but doesn't mention the 7.62x54R.