History of the 38 Special so-called "FBI Load?" [Archive]

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Naphtali

01-01-2016, 05:36 PM

Recently I bought a case of Remington +P 38 Special 158-grain LSWC-HP ammunition, all manufacturers' versions being referred to as the FBI Load. Prior to making the purchase I wandered the Internet for information and pricing pertaining to 38 Special and 357 Magnum ammunition used in snubnose revolvers. Information evaluating the many selections available, and their comparative prices, caused me to make my purchase among the three versions of this ammunition, specifically choosing Remingon's.

I've been wondering:
- How this ammunition got its moniker;

- When the FBI began using it, and when its use ceased;

- What revolver the FBI used for it - that is, revolver's chambered caliber, its barrel length;

- Why it was selected rather than choosing among 357 Magnum ammunitions;

- In short, what is the history of the 38 Special "FBI Load?"

Wayne Dobbs

01-01-2016, 06:10 PM

I don't have the whole story, but the load was originally adopted/used by the St. Louis PD and therefore the alpha characters SPD were included in the Winchester, who first developed the load, product code. It showed up in the early 1970s and was quickly adopted by lots of PDs: Dallas, Miami, Albuquerque, Chicago and the Bureau. My understanding of the FBI adoption is that it was one of those internally engineered processes done because the lead firearms boss at Quantico didn't want to change ammo from RNL, but was maneuvered into doing so by making it look like he'd had "a great idea" that got moved along into formal adoption.

The revolvers the FBI used were S&Ws in .38 Special (various 2.5" and 4" K frames) and .357 Magnum (Model 19s in 2.5 and 4"). The Bureau adopted the Model 13 round butt version in about 1981, but still issued the LSWHP load, because the load worked. On SAC approval in various field offices, the Winchester .357 145 grain Silvertip HP was authorized.

The load got used for real by the many PDs using it and it showed itself to penetrate well with good expansion and that the load was also a good performer in the various 2" guns in play all over the place. The Dallas PD launched literally dozens of bad guys with it and there was little complaint. Allan Jones, now retired from CCI-Speer, was a firearms examiner in the Dallas Crime Lab (SWIFS) and his research showed the load's effectiveness before DPD even adopted it. He wrote a couple of articles describing the process and what they found during their lab testing using 20% ballistic gelatin. His testing was correct and what we found in the Dallas area (and that everybody else discovered) was that that load worked very well, assuming decent placement. It's been loaded by all of the big ammo makers, but I've found that the Remington load was the best of the bunch from several different angles. I still like it and use it.

Outpost75

01-01-2016, 06:27 PM

Wayne has it right, I can add a bit more info. I first saw the X38SPD ammo loaded in plain white boxes, nickle commercial Winchester case with red primer sealer, in 1974 at the FBI Academy at Quantico, VA. It was already being used by numerous local PDs, St. Louis, Chicago and Washington, DC among them. The bureau became interested when the FBI Laboratory started receiving requests to process and handle evidence from officer involved shootings around the country, where the ammunition was being used. They were impressed enough with it that samples were requested from Winchester for evaluation.

Once the bureau starting buying the ammunition, additional suppliers were needed to enable competitively bid contracts. Remington quickly jumped onto the bandwagon with its R38S12. Federal was late to the party and had problems getting the bullet cavity geometry, alloy hardness and lubrication right and has trouble meeting the functioning, accuracy and terminal performance requirements. Alot of Federal 38G was sold in normal commercial channels which failed contract acceptance and while some batches of Federal performed OK, it was not consistent from lot to lot. The Remington and Winchesterr stuff was always good in my testing.

At the time the FBI was moving away from the 4-inch Colt Official Police, maintaining those still being used by agents in the field offices, but issuing to new agent classes heavy barrel 3" or 4" S&W round butt Model 10s, (usually 10-6 or 10-8s) with Tyler T-grip adapter. Later they went to .357 Model 13s in similar configuration and held onto those well into the mid 1980s when they started transitioning new agent classes to 9mm autopistols.

Wayne Dobbs

01-01-2016, 07:02 PM

Outpost 75,

Did you ever see some of the fairly rare 2.5" RB Model 10s the FBI issued in the 70's? The Michigan State Police also issued them. Had one once that I sold. It's on page one of my sold guns "Book of Tears".

I was close friends with the Dallas Division's Police Training Coordinator agent in the 70s and 80s and then spent nine years on an Organized Crime Task Force in the Dallas Division of the FBI. Got to be in the loop of lots of changes and investigations regarding firearms, ammo and training by virtue of that placement.

9.3X62AL

01-01-2016, 07:04 PM

Wayne Dobbs

01-01-2016, 07:13 PM

Thank you, sirs. I heard bits and pieces of this account from FBI folks during training gigs I attended, but until now had not read or heard the full story. I agree that the ammunition is excellent for the 38 Special, and I wish my agency had used it instead of the 110 grain +P we used during our 38 Special-required period.

I always thought it was a much better choice than those lightweight JHPs in .38 Special too. The FBI/Metro/Chicago/Dallas load (it was called all those and more) would reliably penetrate through arms, fatty or over muscled torsos, etc. and generally be found under the skin of the shootee on the back side or in their clothing. The bullet generally expanded to .55 - .60 caliber and retained nearly all it's weight. It shot to the sights on the prevalent fixed sight service revolvers and the recoil and blast were manageable by decently trained shooters. It didn't do well on sheet metal but overall, it made a .38 Special work very well. I'd carry the combination today if required and not worry about it being adequate, if not excellent for the task intended.

Outpost75

01-01-2016, 07:18 PM

...Did you ever see some of the fairly rare 2.5" RB Model 10s the FBI issued in the 70's?...

Yes, I got in on some of the testing with that one, validating some of the field office complaints. The 2-1/2" barrel guns were rebarreled almost immediately to 3" and the buy spec changed to a 3" barrel because the shorter 2-1/2" barrel precludes installation of a full-length ejector rod.

Naphtali

01-01-2016, 07:35 PM

I think I've been making an assumption - that the load was developed for the FBI, probably because of its moniker? Silly assumption in the absence of any pertinent information.

Many Thanks, guys for cogent history. At 33¢ per cartridge, I believed I had an acceptable cartridge at a price low enough that I could afford to practice with the ammunition I would use. Thanks to you, I am pleased as punch. Among the pleasant features are its bearable muzzle blast and relatively modest recoil. In my S&W 640-1 I don't know how fast its 158 grains is "coming out the door," nor do I know how severe is its muzzle flash in dim light.

Outpost75

01-01-2016, 08:08 PM

The people who came late to the party called it the FBI load, because the bureau became the largest purchaser of it, and having government procurement and QA provisions influencing its production resulted in a superior round than had it remained an obscure line item in the Olin Law Enforcement catalogue.

The lead HP was later replaced by a 147-grain JHP, and today there are better. 38 Special loads, the 135 Speer Gold Dot and the Winchester Ranger HXT being notable. But if I found a buy on X38SPD or RS38-12, I would not pass it up.

FergusonTO35

01-01-2016, 11:09 PM

I once chatted with a retired cop whose career spanned from the 60's to the 90's and he was issued just about every common LE sidearm during that time. He said the FBI load was the most effective handgun round he had ever seen, even more so than the .45 Auto or .357 JHP. He had sat in on some autopsies of perps whose careers were cut short with that round and was impressed with the results. "One per customer is all you need" he quipped.

My standard load is 3.4 grains Bullseye under a 150 grain LSWC. It clocks 840 fps out of my S&W 10-5 and 730 from my little 637, a bit slower than the 850 fps advertised for the Remington factory load. According to my data this is a heavy standard pressure load. if I bumped the charge into the +P range I could probably speed it up considerably, however I am happy with it as is.

ReloaderFred

01-01-2016, 11:16 PM

When I was at the National Academy in 1978, we shot heavy barreled 2" Model 10's for all the handgun work. It was a treat shooting the PPC course with a fixed sight, short barreled revolver! We used them on both the indoor and outdoor ranges, but I don't remember what the ammunition was at the time.

Al,

Your department even loaded their own duty ammunition for a period of time in the 1970's. If I remember correctly, they were loading Sierra 110 gr. JHP bullets. Someone pointed out to them that there "may be a liability issue" involved in that practice, so they stopped loading the duty ammunition. They only loaded the practice ammunition. At the time, my department was buying Speer 125 gr. SP Lawman ammunition for our Model 19's, but had problems with hard primers and occasional misfires when we shot up our duty ammunition at the end of each year. When I became rangemaster in 1977, I had the department change over to Winchester 110 gr. .38 +P ammunition, and then when Winchester introduced their Silver Tip ammunition in 1979, we changed over to that for both .38 Special and 9mm, since we were issuing both Model 19's and Model 59's by that time.

Hope this helps.

Fred

9.3X62AL

01-01-2016, 11:59 PM

Right you are, Fred. IIRC, the use of reloads for duty ammo ended about a year prior to my hire (late 1977), though we still used hand-cast and hand-loaded practice wadcutters, poured and assembled primarily by sentenced trusties at the Training Center. That practice ended after a few years, and the practice wadcutters were all W-W factory fodder thereafter. GOOD AMMO. "Alibis" came to a screeching halt.

That W-W 110 JHP was reliable in function, and did good work for me one evening in August 1981. It stayed on as our 38 Special duty load for much of my career, only getting changed to 125 JHP +P right around the time I retired (mid-2005). That remains the 38 load at the present time. I used a 2" Model 10 as a back-up war toy to the issued 4" Model 64, since they both ate from the same HKS loaders. I regret selling that M-10 after the conversion to autopistols, it was VERY accurate.

ReloaderFred

01-02-2016, 04:41 AM

I loaded all our .38 Special practice ammunition, but I loaded a 158 gr. SWC over a stout charge of SR-4756, which approximated the recoil of our duty ammunition. We had an AmmoLoad machine and I loaded about 60,000 rounds on that machine per year, but we bought our 9mm practice ammunition. One outfit got all their 9mm ammo back, with a note from me saying the only possible use I could see for their product was to put it in a 3 pound coffee can, pour concrete in it, and use it for a boat anchor. The purchasing agent for the county told me I couldn't tell a vendor his product was only good for boat anchors, so I told the agent to read my memo again, because that's exactly what I told them. Rounds shouldn't hit the target sideways at 7 yards, and make it impossible to hit a B-27 target at 50 yards!

Last year I picked up a very nice 2" Model 10 for $250.00, and then Early this summer my UPS driver knocked on my door about 2 weeks before he retired and asked if I wanted to buy his 4" Model 10 for $275.00? I about broke my wrist reaching for my wallet, figuratively, but he was more than willing to wait while I got the cash out of my safe.

Back to the OP's question. The practice load that I loaded for the department approximated the FBI load, but without the hollowpoint. It was very accurate out of our Model 19's, and since we used the PPC course of fire for qualification, it had to be accurate out to 50 yards. We had a Ransom Rest on our range, and I had 10 rounds of our practice ammo at 50 yards that produced a group just under 2" from my Model 19. That's not bad for some ol' "practice" ammo.

Fred

Petrol & Powder

01-02-2016, 10:08 AM

Most has been said already but I'll chime in on the name. The "FBI" load is simply the label that most people assign to that load but it has been known by many different handles. Its use was very widespread and it stayed in use for many years.
The cartridge has some real strengths and is often disparaged by idiot gun store commandos due to its low tech appearance. The self appointed idiots couldn't be more wrong. The round shoots to the sights of most fixed sighted revolvers but one of its best strengths is that it has proven to be almost as effective out of 2" barrels as it is from the 4" duty revolver. While it is a little slower when launched from a short barrel, it still performs well.
The FBI load, Treasury Load, Dallas Load, whatever you want to call it; had an excellent track record in the LE days of the 38 Special.
The soft lead bullet equipped with a hollowpoint helped the projectile expand at lower velocities, which probably helped it when fired from short barrels. The fail safe aspect of the round is that is always penetrates well (for a 38 Special) regardless of expansion.

Winchester, Remington and Federal all played with alloys along with the shape and size of the hollowpoint cavity. IIRC, Winchester used a smaller HP and harder lead to maximize penetration but I could be wrong about that, perhaps Outpost can comment?

In any event, the round gets a lot of performance out of the 38 Special.

Thumbcocker

01-02-2016, 10:48 AM

Maybe some of you can ID some ammo I have in my assorted stuff. I have worked around law enforcement for 26 years and have on occasion benefitted from assorted clean outs of odds and ends. I have two different types of .38 special loads. One is loaded in LC and WCC brass dated 77 and 78 with crimped in primer the projectile is a JHP but the hp portion is made of some sort of reddish brown fiber stuff. I remember shooting a few into a mud bank at about 15 yards and recovering the projectile with no expansion. The other cartridges are in nickel plated WCC cases from 80-81. The case head says .38 special +P+ with a tapered JHP projectile with a lead nose and small slits around the jacket. Just some interesting stuff I have acquired over the years.

Hickok

01-02-2016, 11:00 AM

I pack the Remington .38+P 158 LDHP in my 3" Model 60. I like the idea of a heavy boolit over the .38+P 125 gr. loads.

9.3X62AL

01-02-2016, 11:19 AM

Fred, that "practice stuff" you assembled sounds like fine ammunition. I was never real impressed with the work product of inmate labor in any venue. That cons were casting bullets and assembling ammo was.......well, you knew our leadership at least as well as I did.

I appreciate the wide range of caliber choices available currently. I have done away with both 38 Special and 9mm due to the load choices offered for carry; the 357, 40 S&W, and 45 ACP loads are first-rate, though. One of those gets the nod nowadays.

johniv

01-02-2016, 11:33 AM

Good info , thanks to all.
John

ReloaderFred

01-02-2016, 01:22 PM

Thumbcocker,

The nickel plated brass marked +P+ is what's known as the "Treasury Load". If you have the boxes, there will be a Q at the beginning of the product number, as there was for all Winchester's specialty ammunition. Since there isn't a SAAMI spec for +P+, it was simply used by Winchester to differentiate these loads from their regular product line.

The ammunition was loaded with a 110 gr. JHP bullet to an increased velocity which slips my mind at the moment. I was in negotiation with Winchester for buying this ammunition for our dept. in 1978/79, but they required a liability waiver be signed holding Winchester harmless in any use of the ammunition. County Counsel wouldn't sign the waiver and they wouldn't let the Sheriff sign it, so we waited for the Silver Tip ammunition to become available, which Winchester promised was going to be just as effective. The Calif. Highway Patrol was using the Treasury Load at the time and they were having pretty good success with it.

The CHP had an excellent high speed film of the tests in gelatin blocks that had been made by the Air Force.
When I showed the film to the Sheriff, he thought it was great and that we needed it, but when County Counsel saw the film, their response was, "why would you need such powerful ammunition?", which just reinforced my belief that attorneys undergo frontal lobotomies in law school..... No amount of explanation to County Counsel would change their minds. When the CHP went to other ammunition, their local rangemaster got rid of what they still had on hand by giving it to me. I still have several hundred rounds of it in an ammo can in my shop. The boxes have a red stripe across the top, and are labeled, "for Law Enforcement use only".

Al,

I shot PPC matches at the SBSO range in the 70's while on the dept. pistol team. Nice rattlesnake country, as I remember. We couldn't believe they were loading their own duty ammo, but there it was. Our county had used IL's to cast bullets in the early years, but the practice had stopped quite awhile before I was hired in 1971, and we were buying all our bullets, first from Gilbert Berry (Berry's Manufacturing today) when he was in Colton, and then from Ron Gromak (Gromak Industries) when he was in Santa Maria. We required our bullets be packed into tubes for the AmmoLoad and Ron had a packing machine that would do that, but Gil had to put them in tubes by hand, so he bowed out. Ron was swaging his bullets, and Gil had a bunch of laborers casting in H&G 10 cavity molds in an old chicken ranch. We laughed about that a couple of years ago when we were talking about the old days at the SHOT Show. Gil used to deliver his bullets in an old gray van, with the bumper almost dragging the street from the weight of the bullets. He said he'd threatened to put his son in a van like that several times over the years when sales had slumped for one reason or another........ We did use IL's to recover bullets from the backstop on our range and to smelt them down into 90 pound ingots. We traded those ingots back to Ron Gromak for credit on our next bullet order.

Hope this helps.

Fred

Scharfschuetze

01-02-2016, 02:12 PM

The nickel plated brass marked +P+ is what's known as the "Treasury Load"

I shot a lot of the "Treasury Load" while at the Federal Academy (FLTC) in Glynco, Georgia. It was pretty snappy stuff, but I didn't trust it to penetrate very deeply. Fortunately in the early 80s, my department's duty ammo was changed to the Winchester Silver Tip round which was a bit heavier.

While not mentioned yet, that I noteced, was that Federal also made a "Nyclad" version of the FBI load.

336A

01-02-2016, 02:19 PM

Maybe this will be of some help to you.
http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/ammunition_st_crimelabtests_200807/

RJM52

01-02-2016, 02:56 PM

I was with Dallas PD from 1977 to 1988 and the 158 +P load was our issue load. Can tell you from on the street experience and interviews with friends who used the round 8/9 switched to something bigger after their critical incident. One other officer who was using a .38 Special but loaded with 125 grain Federal Nyclad ammo also switched, in that case to a .44 Magnum or .45 Colt, can't quite remember which.

In addition to the .38 Specials I knew officers who shot people with 9mm, .357 Magnum, .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .45 Colt and .45 ACP....not one officer ever switched caliber, gun or load except the ones who used a .38 Special.

Sorry to be such a downer on this but I talked to too many real people who have danced with this round and only one asked for a second date....

Bob

9.3X62AL

01-02-2016, 03:38 PM

I haven't collected much in the way of exotic 38 Special ammo over the years. I do have a box of the Nyclad 38 +P, and it lists bullet weight at 125 grains.

Practice ammo supplies were always hit & miss, so one early development for me was to reload my own ammo for the purpose. The wadcutters we got infrequently were good ammunition, but differed in recoil/report/trajectory from the 110 +P war shots. Might as well duplicate The Real Bullets, so that's what I did--and practiced with very close clones of the carry ammo. I still do this today, and cast bullets get the call in 40 and 45 calibers. I got a killer deal on 125 grain Rem HPs for the 357 Mag dupers a few years ago. and likely have a lifetime supply of those on hand.

johniv

01-02-2016, 06:31 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd3v_fssabI
Interesting info on calibers, .44 included.
This may have been posted here before, but worth a listen.

FergusonTO35

01-02-2016, 07:11 PM

Federal and Remington also made the FBI load with a solid nose SWC, Remington still does. I think this load might offer a better balance of expansion and penetration, especially with a shorter barrel.

Thumbcocker

01-02-2016, 07:46 PM

Supposedly the fiber point stuff was Secret Service ammo. All I remember is that it doesn't expand for beans. Not sure what the fiber was for.

Outpost75

01-02-2016, 07:49 PM

Supposedly the fiber point stuff was Secret Service ammo. All I remember is that it doesn't expand for beans. Not sure what the fiber was for.

This was a frangible load developed for interior guard at nuclear plants, executive protection and air marshall programs.

Treetop

01-02-2016, 09:14 PM

This is an excellent thread topic, IMO. Many thanks to all of the posters who contributed. Now I'm subscribed.:bigsmyl2: Tree.

Groo

01-02-2016, 09:35 PM

Groo here
As was told to me the "FBI" load was higher pressure loads in 38 spec cases and shot from short barrel 357's.
The 38 case was shorter and worked better with the shorter ejector rods.
The "bureau" was not to give out these loads as the pressures were higher then factory spec.
Those with short barrel 357's can witness a difference ejecting 38 cases V 357 cases.

Outpost75

01-02-2016, 09:41 PM

The 158-grain lead HPs were within industry standards for +P. There were enough barrel leading and cylinder binding issues with them that higher pressures were not feasible.

The 110-grain JHP Winchester Q4070 loads used by Treasury, Secret Service, etc. were loaded about 15% over industry +P standards and sometimes had a +P+ headstamp.

The first lots were accepted on waivers relieving the manufacturer of liability for gun damage.

Naphtali

01-02-2016, 09:42 PM

While it is unaffordable, Buffalo Bore offers a steroid-enhanced +P 38 Special 158-grain LSWC-HP (SKU: 20A/20 - Heavy .38 Special +P Ammo - 158 gr. L.S.W.C.H.P. --G.C. (1,000fps/M.E. 351 ft.lbs.) - 20 Round Box).

For those who choose to handload ammunition intended for self-defense - I'm not among them - I have a link to a thread on another forum that describes an emulation of Buffalo Bore's SKU: 20A/20.

I gotta tell ya, if Buffalo Bore's ammunition were to have the same point of impact using the same point of aim as Remington's FBI Load in my S&W 640-1, I would probably buy two boxes (40 rounds) at its ridiculous price. I prefer to believe that the modestly priced Remingtons would become practice ammunition and supplementary back-up ammunition while 40 rounds of Buffalo Bore ammunition would last a lifetime of shoot-outs.

What is not mentioned in Buffalo Bore's blurb is quantification of bullet's penetration-expansion, especially versus winter clothing.

Advertised ballistics are as follows:
Item 20A: 158gr., very soft cast, semi wad cutter, (Keith) hollow cavity, with a gas check. This bullet will mushroom violently on impact and will penetrate roughly 14 inches in human flesh. Again, this bullet is gas checked and will not lead your barrel.
S&W mod. 60, 2 inch- 1040 fps (379 ft. lbs.)
S&W mod. 66, 2.5 inch- 1059 fps (393 ft. lbs.)
Ruger SP101, 3 inch- 1143 fps (458 ft. lbs.)
S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch- 1162 fps (474 ft. lbs.)

9.3X62AL

01-02-2016, 09:51 PM

I have certainly learned a great deal from this thread. I appreciate all who have contributed so far.

FergusonTO35

01-02-2016, 10:21 PM

You can duplicate factory FBI loads and even Buffalo Bore with ease as long as you are shooting a strong revolver. The key is to use powders slower than what is usual for the .38. Accurate #5 is the best one I ever tried. 6.3 grains under a Lee 358-158-RF is at the top of published +P data and clocked 950 fps out of my S&W 10-5 with 4" barrel. I wouldn't hesitate to go a bit farther than that in my Ruger Service Six, however I've decided I am happy with 3.4 grains Bullseye/840 fps.

Outpost75

01-02-2016, 10:37 PM

Gelatin trace from X38SPD from Fackler's testing

157098

Outpost75

01-02-2016, 10:42 PM

Here is the Winchester factory spec sheet on the X38SPD load:

While this sheet lists a 1050 velocity from a 7.7" solid test barrel, the Winchester Law Enforcement catalog lists 890 fps from the SAAMI 4" "vented" test barrel which simulates revolver conditions with an 0.008" cylinder gap.

http://winchesterle.com/Lists%2FCatalogAmmo%2FAttachments%2F274%2FX38SPD.p df

Winchester 38 Special +P (158) Semi-WC HP
Symbol: X38SPD – Winchester Super-X Handgun
Shellcase: 38 Special +P nickel plated brass shellcase with cap lacquer
Bullet: 158 grain Semi Wad Cutter HP
Powder Type: Clean burning
Primer: Winchester non-corrosive primer, boxer type
Accuracy: Product Mean of 4.0 inches Extreme Spread
5 shot targets at 50 yards from a SAAMI test barrel
Velocity: 1050 ft/sec nominal at 15 ft
Fired in a 7.71 inch SAAMI test barrel
Energy: 386 ft-lb nominal at 15ft
Fired in a 7.71 inch standard SAAMI test barrel
Pressure: 20,000 psi maximum average
Waterproofing: Lacquer applied to primer annulus

Below is the spec sheet for the 110-grain JHP +P+ load which was formerly produced for the U.S. Treasury Department under the symbol Q4070.

http://winchesterle.com/Lists%2FCatalogAmmo%2FAttachments%2F7%2FRA38110HP. pdf

Winchester 38 Special +P+ (110) JHP
Symbol: RA38110HP+ – Winchester Ranger Jacketed Hollow Point
Shellcase: 38 Special +P+ nickel plated brass shellcase
Bullet: 110 grain (7.1 gram) Jacketed Hollow Point
Brass jacket, lead core
Diameter 0.357 inch (9.07 mm)
Powder: Clean burning, low flash
Primer: Winchester non-corrosive primer – boxer type
Accuracy: Product Mean of 2.5 inch (6.4 cm) Extreme Spread
5 shot targets at 50 yards (45.7 m) from a 7.71 inch (19.6 cm) SAAMI test barrel
Velocity: 990 ft/sec (302 m/s) nominal at 15 ft (4.6 m)
Fired in a S&W Model 15 revolver with 2 inch (5.1 cm) barrel
Energy: 239 ft-lb (324 joules)
Pressure: 23,500 psi max. average (1,621 bars)
Waterproofing: Lacquer applied to primer annulus and Black Lucas applied to mouth of case.

Larry Gibson

01-03-2016, 02:21 AM

Bit of mystery always surrounds such topics. What I know is that it was called the "FBI Load" at the time because that's what the FBI was using. In the mid '70s most police departments were small and seldom researched much of anything regarding handguns and especially ammunition. The FBI agents actually conducted a lot of training for those smaller departments. The COPs of those departments simply went with what the FBI was using thinking it was "best". The department I worked for had a captain and a COP that thought the FBI walked on water so we adopted the "FBI Load" almost immediately when we converted from 5" S&W M15s to 4" M15s.

I had a chronograph back then and chronographed it in '75. It ran 654 fps from my 1 7/8" M36 and 925 fps from my issue 4" M15. We had the shown Winchester 158 LSWCHP +P back then as that's what the FBI was carrying/using. I also pressure tested it 5 years ago (10 shots from the box shown) in a 7.94" Contender barrel. The psi was 17,900 and the velocity was 1036 fps. You can see the "9-75" on the box. A box of 50 rounds was carried in the glove box of the patrol car and rotated out every 3 months. The boxes were marked "old" and then used for testing and training.

Larry Gibson

157110157111

Mk42gunner

01-03-2016, 02:52 AM

I know the FBI was still using this load in the early to mid 1990's, they used to use my range at Pt Mugu on a monthly basis. As I remember, they used it in all of the .38 and .357 revolvers.

They were trying to transition to all agents carrying semi autos, I remember a lot of 230 gr .45 ACP Federal Hydrashoks going down range; can't recall what they used for the 9mm or .40 for sure.

Robert

Butzbach

01-03-2016, 09:17 AM

Thanks for this thread. I carry this round (Remington) in my 3" model 65 Smith. I've learned a lot by reading this thread.

336A

01-03-2016, 10:58 AM

As to handloading to replicate the "FBI" load Unique does a very good job, my M10 really likes 5.3gr with a Hornady LSWCHP. Here is a link to some .38 Special testing that was done on another forum, in the testing the older Win ammo was found to be a little faster than the current version. I hope that it is helpful to the thread.

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/reloading/125541-four-high-performance-38-special-handloads.html

http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum/defensive-ammunition-ballistics/107972-some-38-special-velocity-tests.html

roverboy

01-03-2016, 11:37 AM

A friend years ago, was experimenting with different .38 SPL +p factory loads. He was interested in light weight bullets at higher velocities.
I told him to try heavier loads like 158 gr. or so. He just didn't like the idea much. Oh well....

Larry Gibson

01-03-2016, 12:23 PM

As to handloading to replicate the "FBI" load Unique does a very good job, my M10 really likes 5.3gr with a Hornady LSWCHP.........

That is almost a perfect duplication velocity and pressure wise. I've been using that load since '75 myself with the Hornady and Speer swaged LSWCHPs. That load over a soft cast 358477 is also very good. I also use 5.5 gr under a very soft cast (40-1 alloy) 358156 and HP them with the 1/8" Forster HP tool and then further open the HP with a countersink. I was able to buy my issue 5" M15 when the department switched to 4" M15s. Any of those loads are about the most effective 38 SPL loads I've used.

Larry Gibson

harley45

01-03-2016, 12:25 PM

I bought some of the Rim Rock bullets and had good luck with them, so when MIhec did the run of the Thompson HP GC I bought the mold sadly I haven't used it yet to make a comparison.

Petrol & Powder

01-03-2016, 12:26 PM

A little off-topic but not much.
The NYPD used revolvers for a long time but they never used .357 magnums. They were confined to the 38 Special.
Technically new officers were not "issued" firearms but rather purchased their duty weapon at very discounted prices from the department. The gun became the officer's property. The list of available duty weapons was rather short and towards the end of the revolver days it was a DAO revolver but the one constant remained, was it was always chambered in 38 Special and never .357 mag.

Circa 1992-1994* the revolvers were dropped from the list of guns the recruits could purchase as their duty weapons but the current officers that had revolvers and wanted to keep them were grandfathered in. So that set the stage for the slow removal of the 38 Special from the NYPD by attrition but with well over 30,000 officers that attrition would continue for many years.

The duty load varied over the years but it was a 158gr bullet (158gr Federal Nyclad towards the end) until it was eventually replaced by the Speer Gold Dot 135gr short barrel load in the mid 1990's. The Speer Gold Dot load was provided to officers that still carried a revolver and it was used in both 4" duty guns and snubnose off-duty/back-up guns (often a S&W 640 or 36). The Speer load was a very good round but many officers lamented the loss of the older 158gr loads and horded them for years.
It's interesting to note that many officers developed a strong confidence in both their 38 Special revolvers and the 158 gr load. Even when given the opportunity to switch to a higher capacity pistol or a newer very well designed jacketed hollowpoint; they held onto the older revolvers and old school 158gr loads. Some of that can be attributed to the conservative nature of cops, soldiers, pilots, ship captains and others that tend to stick with what they know works but some of that is the fact that the 158gr +P Lead SWCHP - DOES IN FACT WORK!

*1993 was officially the last year revolvers were provided to new officers but it appears very few, if any, revolvers were selected by officers in 1993. 1992 was probably the last year of any significant number of new recruits selecting revolvers.

Scharfschuetze

01-03-2016, 02:41 PM

A little off-topic but not much.

Seems spot on to me and a nice review of NYPD policies.

Speaking of the NYPD, while I was with a federal agency in the early 80s, one of my comrades was an ex NYPD officer. It was always fun to share "war stories" with him and compare policing in the Big Apple to my experiences in a western state. We are still in touch today regarding firearm questions and post career conversations.

Outpost75

01-03-2016, 03:29 PM

Thanks to all those retired from "the job" who have added learned comments from personal experience.
This thread should be made a "sticky!"

FergusonTO35

01-03-2016, 03:29 PM

I wonder how long the Ruger GPNY and SPNY were issued?

johniv

01-03-2016, 04:32 PM

+1 to Outposts recommendation to "stickyize" this.

Petrol & Powder

01-03-2016, 08:39 PM

I wonder how long the Ruger GPNY and SPNY were issued?

There has long been controversy surrounding the numbers of GPNY's and SPNY's that made it into actual NYPD service. While there's no doubt that Ruger made a special run of GP-100's and SP101's to meet NYPD requirements known as the GPNY and SPNY respectively; there is more than a little dispute as what happened to those guns.
The GPNY was a special GP-100 model chambered in 38 Special, fitted with a spurless hammer, had a DAO action and a dull stainless finish. They were made with 3" and 4" barrels but the 4" models are believed to be a bit more common. The SPNY was a dull grey, DAO, 38 Special version of the SP101. Ruger sold a fair number of Service-Six's (all chambered in 38 Special) to the NYPD but the GPNY came late to the party. By the time the GPNY was on the scene the days of the revolver in police service were in the last stages of decline. During the same time frame the S&W NY-1 (a DAO model 64 made for the NYPD) continued to be delivered to the NYPD. There was a little overlap between the Service-Six and the GP-100 from 1986 to 1988 when both models were in production and it appears that no GPNY's were made until after 1988. It is very likely that new, unsold Service-Six's remained in NYPD's armory after 1988 until they were all purchased. Many recruits would opt for the S&W NY-1. It appears the GPNY's were in the NYPD inventory from 1990 -1992. To complicate the collector's world even more, some GPNY's that remained in inventory after January 1, 1993 may have been sold to other agencies.

The statistics I've seen place the total number of GPNY's delivered to the NYPD below 3000 guns and it's unclear how many of those were ultimately purchased by recruits. The SPNY was not a duty gun for uniformed officers. The numbers for the SPNY's seem to be even more fuzzy. I've talked to a few collectors that believe the SPNY's were never delivered to the NYPD in large numbers. I don't have enough knowledge to offer an informed opinion of true numbers for either the GPNY or SPNY.

Outpost75

01-03-2016, 08:45 PM

I was told by Chris Peters when I attended the Ruger Armorer's School, that the GPNYs were made in test and evaluation quantities only and were mostly bought by other agencies, Port Authority, Transit Police, etc. This may be true of the SPNY also, but that is speculation.

Petrol & Powder

01-03-2016, 09:41 PM

157189157188
Without documentation it's difficult to establish the linage of a GPNY or SPNY but they certainly were some seriously strong revolvers !

A star stamped on the frame under the yoke is a good indicator of acceptance by a NYPD armorer but like any marking, it can be faked. A cautious collector will verify all of the other details before making a final decision. A factory letter is your best insurance. The second photo shows the "star" acceptance mark on a Ruger Service-Six known to have been an authentic NYPD gun.

As for the GPNY and SPNY, I've never seen one with the "star" acceptance mark but I don't know if they were still following that practice in the early 1990's.

As with all collector's type purchases, Caveat Emptor is the rule.

Bigslug

01-03-2016, 11:18 PM

Good thread, and very cool to hear from "those who were there"

It sounds like the 158 grain "FBI load" was so widely accepted because it was already doing what the research conducted as a result of the 1986 Miami shooting concluded that a duty round should do:

1. Assuming you put the bullet in the right place. . .
2. . . .it has to penetrate deeply enough to hit something important. . .
3. . . .and ONLY after you manage to accomplish those two things, take any any all expansion you can get.

I frequently giggle about ongoing spillage of ink over the supposed advantages of one big company's efforts to accomplish those things over another's. When the bore diameter and bullet materials are pretty much set, and SAAMI dictates your pressure curve, your glossy magazine ads don't go far to impress that cold, indifferent bitch known as Physics. At the end of the day, Chevron's 87 octane is indistinguishable from Shell's

I was only a gun-rag reading teenager through the 1980's when all this transition was going on, but I remember the school of thought that reasoned in favor of light, fast-expanding, "energy dumping" projectiles that the FBI eventually concluded didn't reliably make it to the Tootsie Roll center of the Tootsiepop. The thought of going "into battle" with a 110 grain .38 HP load is one of those things that just gives me the screaming willies. While I'm sure they take more that a couple sheets of wet T.P. to stop them, the Mythbusters episode of trying to get a lethal impact out of a ping-pong ball comes immediately to mind. . . Curious to hear of firsthand experiences from those who survived that fad.

Petrol & Powder

01-04-2016, 12:09 AM

Well said Bigslug.

The bullet must penetrate deep enough, to reach something important, in order to damage something important enough, to stop the fight.
Expansion is just the icing on the cake at that point.

The "FBI Load" [or whatever you want to call it] was just an early method to get as much performance as possible out of the 38 Special. It turned out to be a pretty good method, even after all of these years! It's interesting how sometimes people disregard old methods simply because they are aren't new or cutting edge.
Handguns in general are poor tools to stop a human attacker but they are often the only tools available. There are better self-defense cartridges than the 38 Special but if the 38 Special is the tool on hand, the FBI load is still a very good choice. If you're dealing with a short barreled 38 Special the FBI load might be your best choice. Despite all of the years, all of the ink, all of the marketing hype and all of the fads; that simple 158grain, +P, LSWCHP has a lot going for it.
It doesn't have to be new to work.

Wayne Dobbs

01-04-2016, 02:59 AM

336A

01-04-2016, 11:52 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd3v_fssabI
Interesting info on calibers, .44 included.
This may have been posted here before, but worth a listen.

Thanks for posting this, I got a chance to listen to it last night. Very informative.

9.3X62AL

01-04-2016, 12:06 PM

. . . Curious to hear of firsthand experiences from those who survived that fad.

Well said, sir.

2230 hours/08-03-81, Desert Hot Springs, CA. I engaged an armed drug store burglar behinf the Drug King market/pharmacy in its back alley. 39 year old drug addict armed with sawed-off H&R "Topper" 20 gauge shotgun (later found to have fired #4-#6 shot in high-brass "duck load") took position barricade-fashion behind a garbage dumpster as I took position crouched behind open driver's door of patrol car and its spotlight. Burglar fired first, bulk of shot charge was deflected by spotlight (thankfully) but several pellets hit me in face and head. I immediately returned fire (S&W Model 64 x 4" HB, 38 Special +P 110 JHP W-W), striking the shooter's left wrist and through the plane of his left palm, severing his index finger. 2 hits out of five rounds fired, distance 26 feet. The shooter was disabled from further operation of the shotgun, but not "stopped" per se. He took cover behind same dumpster, and was obliged out from behind it at shotgun-point by 2nd deputy on scene. Shooter went "Condition Black" after being shot, screaming and yelling, but offering no further resistance through the point of custody. I walked to the ambulance, I would be G-- d---ed if I would get on a gurney in front of that druggie SOB. The immortality of 26 year olds, full-on. It turned out that one of those shot pellets fully penetrated my brow--traversed the sinus cavity--penetrated the sinus back wall and was lying on the inboard surface of the brain case, allowing CSF to leak for a couple days. Close one, that. 8 days at Desert Hospital, 8 weeks off, then back to work full duty.

Bonz

01-04-2016, 12:33 PM

I bought some of the Rim Rock bullets and had good luck with them.

I do the same and load .357 magnum cases to a touch over .38special +P loads and carry in my Ruger LCR 357 magnum.

157216157217

Scharfschuetze

01-04-2016, 01:06 PM

Curious to hear of firsthand experiences from those who survived that fad.

I engaged an armed drug store burglar behinf the Drug King market/pharmacy in its back alley

Glad you're still with us 9.3X62AL! I had a very similar incident, although the details are a bit different: Armed liquor store robber (already shot one citizen) with a stolen Browning Hi-Power, dark night and in an alley. I tracked him a few blocks through an industrial area on foot during a light snow so I didn't have a car for cover or light. He had a heavy jacket on and 110 grain bullets may have been challenged by that, but four center mass hits with 158 grainers ended his little spree.

I did learn a few things from this and that is when you're in a gun fight with a handgun, you'll always want a more powerful gun than the one you have and that even center mass hits don't always instantly stop a hopped up and determined opponent. My PD's policy allowed .41 Magnums and I bought a Model 58 S&W shortly afterwards.

ReloaderFred

01-04-2016, 01:58 PM

Scharfschuetze,

What ammunition did you carry in your Model 58? My carry ammo was dictated by the dept. while carrying my personal handgun. I had to purchase "non-standard" ammunition myself, so when we had Winchester ammunition for the dept. issued handguns, I had to carry Winchester in my personal Model 57, which was the excellent 170 gr. Silvertip during that time. When the dept. changed over to Federal ammunition for duty use, then I had to buy Federal 210 gr. JHP .41 caliber ammunition for my use. That was also some pretty good stuff.

The times I was shot at by a "fellow citizen" were once with a .30-30 rifle, once with a .22 rifle and once with a .44 Magnum handgun. They were all at distances beyond reasonable handgun range, and I was carrying a Model 19. In fact, when shot at with the .30-30, the rangemaster at the time had just sent us our new handguns the week before and I had never fired it....... Very bad policy, which changed after that. My main concern was getting something solid between me and the shooter, and they were taken into custody later in the shift, after help responded from over 30 miles away in the case of the .30-30 shooter.

Right after that incident, I put the dept. issued 4" Model 19 back in the box and went back to carrying my personal 6" Model 19 until we changed Sheriffs and was able to carry my Model 57, which had previously been a Ventura PD gun, but I had it rebarreled to 6" by Cheshire & Perez.

Fred

Scharfschuetze

01-04-2016, 02:02 PM

What ammunition did you carry in your Model 58?

We were issued the 210 grain LSWC "Police Load" for some time. When out of the city helping the sheriff's office with traffic, I found it to be and excellent load when needing to drop vehicle accident injured livestock. It just poleaxed 'em. I guess it was the .41 Mag's version of the FBI load.

Later on when the Winchester Silver Tips came out, we were issued those and they also proved to be a good load, although they didn't penetrate like the LSWC.

As you know, that .41 Magnum "Police Load" was really just a mid-level load for the .41 and many of us on the department really liked it. It was the .41 Mag's version of the FBI load for the Models 57 and 58.

I still load the 210 grain LSWC boolits over Unique powder to duplicate the old "Police Load" in my Model 58. Whether it needs it or not, I get it out once a year to shoot: if only for the memories.

ReloaderFred

01-04-2016, 02:50 PM

Thanks for the reply. The Remington loading of the "Police Load" leaded horribly, due to the almost pure lead bullet and inadequate bullet lube. It was effective on target, but the rounds that I shot almost obscured the rifling in my barrel after only a few rounds downrange.

I really liked the Silvertip round. It was accurate and easy to control.

I had to furnish my own range ammunition for my "non-standard" caliber, so I loaded the 210 gr. SWC over a pretty stout load of SR-4756 for that. I could nail the center of the B-27 target off the barricades with that load at 50 yards all day long.

When I was a patrol sergeant, I stayed on the graveyard shift, even when I had enough seniority to work days, simply because I liked catching burglars. My crew were all seasoned Deputies and all of them could have bid "better" shifts, but stayed with me for a number of years until I promoted to Lt. We were champion burglar catchers! I have some funny stories about those days, but one of them involved a burglar from LA who thought it would be easy to drive to Bakersfield and pull a drugstore burglary in "the sticks". We searched for him for over an hour and 45 minutes before I found him hiding in a small space on the roof of the shopping center, and when I found him down in that hole behind the façade, I told him I'd put a .41 caliber hole through the top of his head if he made any move I didn't tell him to make. After we got the fire dept. out with their ladder to get him (and us) off the roof, as he was being put in the back of a patrol car, he asked, "what's a .41?" One of my Deputies explained that it made a .357 Magnum look like toy, and his eyes got real big. The only other thing he said was, "you sho is persistent. They's never looked for me that long befo"..... It was another good night!

Fred

PS: I always enjoyed getting the fire dept. out in the middle of the night for a ladder. They got paid for sleeping, but if my Deputies got caught sleeping, they'd get fired..........

dualsport

01-04-2016, 03:16 PM

Just to stir the pot...I have a very old box of Remington Kleanbore .38 Special 158 gr. STEEL jacketed roundnose ammo. I won't shoot it, it's old old and too interesting to shoot it up. But, somebody back then saw a need for extreme penetration from the .38 Special. It might expand if it hits a brick wall, maybe not. I still think the SEALS have it figured out and they use (must use) FMJ. Get it in there, I say. Like the man said, "P is for Plenty". And placement.

ReloaderFred

01-04-2016, 04:09 PM

The Metal Piercing ammunition was brought out in the 1930's, during the heydays of the gangster era. The motorcar was the method of choice for driveby's, bank robberies, etc. The soft lead bullets in common usage during that era when the .38 Special was king just couldn't penetrate the body of a car. The steel used for building cars in those days was more than the foil used in today's cars. It was actual steel. That's another reason the .38 Super was made with a 130 gr. FMJ during that time. It was designed to punch holes in cars with a SA pistol.

I've got a booklet from Western Ammunition from about 1937 that explains why metal piercing ammunition was brought out in both .38 Special and .357 Magnum. The bearing surfaces were still lead, with a steel cap swaged on top. I'll see if I can scan those pages, but computers aren't my strongpoint, so no promises...

Hope this helps.

Fred

9.3X62AL

01-04-2016, 04:38 PM

This thread DEFINITELY needs to be stickied. LOTS of good stuff.

I think VERY HIGHLY of R-Fred's old agency for many reasons, and their inclusion of the 41 Magnum for their personnel's usage is one of those. I had no small envy for agencies like his that were serious about keeping their deputies safe in this way. Anaheim PD was another shop that took defense seriously, allowing use of 45 Colt caliber "back in the day".

Alluding to Scharf's comments, the complaints about issued ammo came largely to a halt when our approval list expanded in 1987 to include 45 ACP and 9mm, biased toward 45. The 40 was adopted at light-speed, given the usual glacial progress such upgrades usually made, and Glocks were added about the same time. Even 357 Magnum joined the party, as did 380 ACP for some venues. Lots of choices = minimal b*o*tching. The old shop authorizes 5 handgun calibers--2 forms of shotshell--and pretty decent 223 these days. 300+ sidearm variants get the nod, too. Mo' betta', fo' sho'.

ReloaderFred

01-04-2016, 05:57 PM

Can't get the picture to post. I'll try later.

Fred

Hickok

01-04-2016, 07:26 PM

157260Here ya' go Fred!

Scharfschuetze

01-04-2016, 10:12 PM

PS: I always enjoyed getting the fire dept. out in the middle of the night for a ladder. They got paid for sleeping, but if my Deputies got caught sleeping, they'd get fired..........

Ain't that the truth!

the complaints about issued ammo came largely to a halt when our approval list expanded in 1987 to include 45 ACP and 9mm, biased toward 45

As one of my departments FTOs, I was able to revise our firearms policy to allow 357, 41, 44 Special and 45 Colt or ACP (in a revolver). Patrol revolvers could be any quality US made weapon, but S&Ws rulled although a few officers carried Colts.

I never could get the policy to include the 1911 or S&W 39 or 59 semi-autos. I retired and returned to the Army to finish that career just as the semi-auto was being accepted into the police service. I return and visit the department from time to time, although almost all my old comrades are now retired. When I do, I'm always a bit surprised not to see a single revolver on a gun belt anymore. Time waits for no man I guess.

Bigslug

01-04-2016, 10:48 PM

I did learn a few things from this and that is when you're in a gun fight with a handgun, you'll always want a more powerful gun than the one you have and that even center mass hits don't always instantly stop a hopped up and determined opponent. My PD's policy allowed .41 Magnums and I bought a Model 58 S&W shortly afterwards.

I've rapidly drained the cardiovascular systems of two runty deer with 2500 fps+ impacts from a 30-06, and despite blown heart on #1 and lung/big artery tartare on #2, both took about ten seconds to lose their footing. Applying the same effect to the pondering of ending a gunfight, it pretty much got me thinking that foot-pounds are a pretty meaningless thing, and that differences in starting or expanded diameter (usually measured in tenths or hundredths of an inch) are similarly not that big a deal.

Lately have been of the mind that if it can transect an arm or a spine without stopping or deviating, AND the girls and desk jockeys can qualify without a lot of flinchy remediation, little more needs to be contemplated for a handgun (though I'm pretty evangelical when it comes to trying to convince them that a 12 gauge shotgun can be their bestest friend in alllll the world). I think the 147 grain 9mm HP may well be the ".38 FBI Load" of the future.

ReloaderFred

01-04-2016, 11:53 PM

Thanks, Hickock. I scanned the pages from the 1937 handbook, but I made them jpegs, and couldn't get them to download. I'll try it again later tonight as a pdf and see if that works. I know next to nothing about computers, but I can reload 31 different calibers.........

Fred

tazman

01-05-2016, 06:35 AM

Lately have been of the mind that if it can transect an arm or a spine without stopping or deviating, AND the girls and desk jockeys can qualify without a lot of flinchy remediation, little more needs to be contemplated for a handgun (though I'm pretty evangelical when it comes to trying to convince them that a 12 gauge shotgun can be their bestest friend in alllll the world). I think the 147 grain 9mm HP may well be the ".38 FBI Load" of the future.

I have made the statement several times on here that the 9mm is just a high capacity 38 special. When you compare velocities between 38 special and 9mm with similar weight bullets you find the numbers are very close. When you throw in the 38 special +P the 38 special can actually exceed the 9mm velocities.
If you are comparing the performance numbers between the two cartridges, there is little to choose from between them.
I am usually more accurate with a revolver than a semi-auto pistol. The difference isn't a lot. Probably isn't enough to make a difference in a combat situation. The capacity difference probably isn't enough to make a difference either.
You can't be prepared for all situations with a single concealed carry weapon. You pick what you feel will be the best trade off for what you are likely to run into. You use what you feel the most confident with. I have no problems carrying a revolver with the FBI load or a more modern defensive bullet. I also have no problem carrying a 9mm semi-auto pistol with the heavier bullets available.
I doubt I will ever run into a situation where the ammo capacity I have isn't enough to get me out of it.

Hickok

01-05-2016, 08:25 AM

Scharfschuetze

01-05-2016, 09:19 AM

I am usually more accurate with a revolver than a semi-auto pistol. The difference isn't a lot. Probably isn't enough to make a difference in a combat situation. The capacity difference probably isn't enough to make a difference either.

That brings up an interesting side bar between revolvers and semi-autos. When the highway patrol in my home state adopted the Beretta 92, the average score of the average shooters went up a bit and the scores of the really good shots went down. I often shot with or had coffee with the state boys and they all reported the same phenomenon.

Another point is that only hits count and since the rearming of the American police with semi-autos, the number of rounds fired in gun fights by individual officers has climbed significantly. When LEOs were armed with revolvers, the FBI reported that in the average gun fight, the average officer fired four rounds at a suspect in the dark at about four to six feet with a hit ratio of about 20%. I have no idea what it is now, but if the nightly news is to be believed, then I'm no longer surprised to see officers with over 45 rounds on their gun belt between their handgun and two high capacity magazines.

FergusonTO35

01-05-2016, 10:21 AM

I am not a cop, and probably never will be one. So, my needs would be strictly to stop a bad guy from whatever he is trying to do to me and get the heck out of there. I think my best bet is to stick with something I can shoot with good speed and accuracy, meaning nothing stronger than 9X19 or .38 Special. It would be counterproductive for me to load any of my pistols beyond standard loadings. Of course if others can shoot the big guns really well then more power to them!

Larry Gibson

01-05-2016, 11:03 AM

tazman

01-05-2016, 11:31 AM

I think the increase in the number of rounds fired by LEOs is two fold; first they have a larger capacity with semi autos before a reload is necessary and second the training the last 20 +/- years has emphasized "keep shooting until the threat is neutralized". That's my guess as to why we see so many rounds fired. I was a certified firearms instructor for the Board of Police Standards and Training in Oregon. I worked several qualification classes at the police academy and trained and qualified LEOs in a tri-county region. The marksmanship ability and weapons knowledge of most LEOs is greatly exaggerated by the public at large.

Larry Gibson

I have no personal experience that would allow me to verify that statement. I only know what I read about and see in news videos. All the data I have makes me believe what you just stated is exactly correct.
When an officer needs to empty his 15 round magazine to stop a threat that is NOT moving from a range of less than 15 feet, there is something seriously wrong with his weapon handling. This seems to be more normal than one would think.

Scharfschuetze

01-05-2016, 01:28 PM

The marksmanship ability and weapons knowledge of most LEOs is greatly exaggerated by the public at large.

My neighbor commutes to serve on a fairly large metro PD. While he's not a gun guy per se, he does does keep me abreast of developments in law enforcement. He and many of his compadres are turning in their 40 S&W handguns and returning to the 9mm. He claims that it is because the Glock 40 S&Ws are not holding up under extended use.

I also get the impression that most of the officers are not qualifying well with the 40 S&W as it is on a 9mm frame and it probably recoils more than most can tolerate and a flinch is the usual outcome from that. During my tenure as one of the FTOs (both field and firearms) on my department, I saw LEOs flinch so badly that they missed a B27 target at 7 yards. They were generally officers wanting to upgrade from the 38 special to a 41 Magnum and the increased recoil was just beyond their capabilities. Of course I could not sign off on their upgrade to a more powerful handgun until they could qualify with it. These were the guys that Larry is referring to and they really were only just barely 70% shooters through 25 yards with a 38 Special.

ReloaderFred

01-05-2016, 01:54 PM

Those who have never experienced being shot at have no idea what it's like. It's not target shooting. It's survival.

I've always said training should involve something realistic, after the regular "target shooting" is done to establish a baseline for gun handling basics. When I was full time rangemaster for our dept., with over 600 sworn and another 300 reserve Deputies, I tried to come up with something that would create a more realistic shooting experience, i.e.; being shot at while shooting.

I tried to come up with an idea that would include a device shooting tennis balls, or even ping pong balls, at the shooter while they were engaging a target, but my limited funds and lack of equipment and support from administration, pretty much killed the idea. However, just before I promoted to sergeant and left the range, I ordered a device called the "Return Fire". This was used with wax bullets on the impact target. There was a slingshot arrangement that contained a tennis ball aimed at the shooter's chest. It had a trough in which a softball rolled down it to start the time, with an arm that would fall across the trough and stop the softball from tripping the trigger for the slingshot and tennis ball. The angle of the trough determined the time available for the shot. The wax bullet striking the target released the arm, hopefully in time to stop the softball.

Unfortunately, the Senior Deputy who took my place on the range didn't see the need for this type of training and it was never used. He ended up throwing it away after awhile, which really disappointed me, to say the least.

My suggestion is for those who think cops can't handle guns accurately to step up to the firing line and while they're calmly aligning their sights on their known distance target, let a couple of people throw rocks at them and see how well they do under those less than life threatening conditions........

The truth of the matter is more cops are killed in traffic accidents than shooting most years, though there are exceptions. When I was a patrol sergeant, I was much more concerned about my Deputies' driving abilities than I was their marksmanship, simply because they drove an average of over 100 miles per shift, under distracting and often hazardous conditions, but may never fire their handgun "on the job" over their entire careers. That's the reality, and I'd just come off almost 3 years as the department's only firearms instructor. Later, when I was in senior management, it became even more of an issue.

I've been to way too many funerals over the years for fellow officers, and the slight majority of them were killed in traffic accidents.........

As for increased round counts, in our dept., it went way up with the advent of the SA pistol. There have been numerous studies on the issue. One that stands out is the one done by the Washington Post (not my favorite media source) on the increased number of shootings, and round counts in those shootings, by the Washington DC police dept. after the adoption of the Glock pistols. There was a huge increase, as shown by the graphs they published at the time.

Hope this helps.

Fred

Petrol & Powder

01-05-2016, 09:07 PM

There are a LOT of variables involved and it's easy to get lost in the data.

Officers equipped with semi-auto pistols clearly fire more shots on average during deadly force encounters but that statistic doesn't tell much of the story. When you pull a single statistic out of a pile of data you must be very careful when stating what that statistic means.

If you said there were more births during cross country journeys in 1840 than today, one might conclude that woman in the 1840's were very promiscuous ! ;-) The fact that the journey took 120 days by wagon in 1840 and 5 hours by jet now - changes that conclusion. You must be cautious when you look a finite statistic that has a lot of variables that influence that statistic.

Having more rounds available in the gun is one factor. Training is another factor. When the gun fight starts is another factor (officers are now very reluctant to fire first even when they are justified to use that force), etc.
Hit ratios may look abysmal when compared to target shooting but survival rates haven't changed much. It isn't about nice small groups and high scores, it's about survival. People that missed about 2/3 of the time with revolvers will still miss about 2/3 of the time with pistols. The raw numbers change but the outcomes are about the same.
Put a pregnant woman on a wagon train from St. Louis to San Francisco today and she just might give birth before she arrives at her destination ! What does that mean? Does it mean anything?

Handguns in general are terrible tools for self defense but they are often the only tool at hand when needed. It's wise to try to make them as effective as possible before the gun fight and that is what the "FBI Load" was all about. In the end, the difference between a 38 Special and a 45 ACP is probably more about the person behind the gun than the bullet coming out of the gun but that doesn't stop us from trying to get every last advantage possible out of that tool.

tazman

01-05-2016, 10:07 PM

Handguns in general are terrible tools for self defense but they are often the only tool at hand when needed. It's wise to try to make them as effective as possible before the gun fight and that is what the "FBI Load" was all about. In the end, the difference between a 38 Special and a 45 ACP is probably more about the person behind the gun than the bullet coming out of the gun but that doesn't stop us from trying to get every last advantage possible out of that tool.

I agree with that statement completely. That's why I practice so much. It's also why I carry a gun I can control well and shoot accurately. I would prefer a shotgun in most instances but they are terribly hard to conceal. That FBI load is a good choice for the guns I use most.
I hear a lot of excuses about being shot at changes things so much. Perhaps for some people it does. I have been in survival situations before where I was attacked in one case by 3 people at once. I didn't experience the panic that people say happens in that kind of situation. After it was over, I had the shakes badly enough, but not while it was happening. I wasn't carrying a gun at the time but I managed to stay alive anyway. At the time, concealed carry wasn't an option here.
What bothers me is when LEOs, who may be required to live or die by the gun they carry, don't or won't practice with it to where it's use is a natural part of their being. If they panic, they become a danger to everyone.
I personally know a few officers who are superb shots and really work at their skills. I admire and respect them for their dedication. The only problem is when you meet an officer on the street, you don't know if he/she is a good one or one of the ones who might shoot you by accident because of unfamiliarity with their weapon.

Scharfschuetze

01-06-2016, 01:45 AM

I've always said training should involve something realistic, after the regular "target shooting" is done to establish a baseline for gun handling basics. When I was full time rangemaster for our dept., with over 600 sworn and another 300 reserve Deputies, I tried to come up with something that would create a more realistic shooting experience, i.e.; being shot at while shooting.

Very true. During my tenure as one of the range masters, I was able to convince the brass that we didn't need to qualify quarterly but only twice a year. That gave me enough ammo and two days per officer per year to actually train (day and night) in more realistic scenarios applicable to actual street engagements. Administration often suffers from the illusion that qualification is training. It isn't. At any rate, I had junk yards bring out old cars to simulate traffic stops and I instituted an IPSC style course of fire on steel B27 targets that I had the city shop mechanics make. We also trained with instinct or point shooting to supplement aimed fire training. All in all, it was a successful program and one that the range masters that followed me kept in operation.

It isn't about nice small groups and high scores, it's about survival.

True on the face of it, but good shooting on the range will generally turn into good shooting in the field. Good shots are not born, they are trained as well as being self motivated. In this day and age, most recruits have absolutely no idea how to use a firearm until they are trained to do so. If an officer of soldier works hard in training, he will do much better when the chips are down and will likely survive. I can attest to that. Those that don't... well they're the ones not hitting and probably emptying those high capacity magazines. A big part of accuracy is dependent on one's mental outlook and confidence. The ability to shoot well on the training range will build that confidence and competence. I say that with just over 40 years under arms, much of it spent training both LEOs as an FTO and soldiers as an NCO from Vietnam to the Global War on Terror. "Train as you fight and fight as you train" is an old saying in the Army.

Put a pregnant woman on a wagon train from St. Louis to San Francisco today and she just might give birth before she arrives at her destination ! What does that mean? Does it mean anything?

You're right, it doesn't mean anything; but, as an aside, I once delivered a baby while on duty. :)

Larry Gibson

01-06-2016, 11:51 AM

"My suggestion is for those who think cops can't handle guns accurately to step up to the firing line and while they're calmly aligning their sights on their known distance target, let a couple of people throw rocks at them and see how well they do under those less than life threatening conditions........"

The problem with that statement is when a reality check is applied. I'm sure the Chicago PD has all the documentation to prove the officer who shot the knife wielder 16 times was "trained to standard" and had "qualified". And the officer was some distance away (actually it was the officer who was closing the distance) from the knife wielder. There was no overt move toward the officer so he had no "rocks thrown at him" so to speak. Also if you've seen the ME report on the gunshot locations the marksmanship was extremely poor, especially with the 14 shots fired after the guy was on the pavement. Unfortunately such poor marksmanship is quite common among LEOs today.

I appreciate the defense of LEOs in general having been one for a number of years. But unless we put emotion aside and realistically determine what went wrong, accept those as lessons learned and incorporate them into training then this type of scenario will continue. Most of the time when an LEO is killed or even injured it is because they did something wrong, either in action or in judgment. That action and judgment is most often a result of poor training or no training. Too many times I have seen lessons learned ignored by "upper management" because they didn't want to cause dispersion on the officer or because they were afraid of liability issues or that they might be blamed for not "training" the officer correctly. Thus what was excellent lessons learned were often ignored. I always thought that was truly letting the officer die in vain because we may have prevented a future incident by learning what that officer did wrong.

As mentioned by you and several others firearms training is not qualification. Good marksmanship under stress after the officer has learned the basics is a very important 1/2 of it. Unfortunately many officers are put through the "stress training scenarios" before they learn proper handgun marksmanship. The added stress to the officer who knows they can't shoot well and will probably miss only leads to one thing; a spray and pray action. The department that pushes officers to quickly through firearms training are also the ones that will push the officers through stress training, if they get any at all. Those departments also will highly document via paperwork how well trained the officers are. Seen that too many times in too many departments.

The other half that does go hand in hand with good marksmanship is good "officer survival" (read that officer tactics) training. Seldom do we see that. Many gun fights and altercations would probably be avoided if the officers had used proper tactics prior to the shooting.

However, back to the topic of the thread. My own testing and use of the Winchester FBI load is that it's probably the best all around 38 SPL cartridge for LEO carry. There could possibly be some improvement going from a SWC to a WFN HP with a soft silicone type HP filler but that remains to be seen. I still use the Winchester in my wife's M19 2 1/2" as she can shoot it extremely well......keeps me being a "good boy".......:lol:

Larry Gibson

tazman

01-06-2016, 12:10 PM

I have been around a number of women at the firing range and other less formal practice sessions and invariably the women became very good to excellent shots provided they hadn't been brainwashed to believe it was impossible for them. Many had small enough hands and wrists that a 38 special might have been all they could handle recoil wise without some strength training. In any case that FBI load would be an excellent choice for them.
Their ability to shoot well is just one of the reasons I try to be polite to women. They will not challenge you physically and will go for the equalizer first rather than make a macho play.

ReloaderFred

01-06-2016, 05:18 PM

I was fortunate when I was rangemaster. I was open 10 months out of the year and all armed personnel were required to qualify twice a year. The other 8 months were optional, but I made up courses of fire that duplicated past shootings within our dept. At least three of those optional months were night courses, and they were generally well attended.

During one academy class, I had every Deputy in the dept. who had been involved in a shooting come in and tell the recruits their experiences, thought processes, etc. It was an open discussion, and the recruits were free to ask any questions they wanted and they were answered honestly. We video taped the session and it was used in subsequent classes. It was interesting to see the Deputies who had suffered gunshot wounds in the past open up to the recruits and tell them what went through their minds before, during and after the shootings.

One Deputy in particular had been shot with a .30-30, through the back of the car he was using for cover, entered his lower chest at a downward angle, and then exited his lower back. He told the recruits he didn't remember actually getting shot, though he felt like he'd been punched in the chest. He told them he reached around to his back where it felt wet, and put his middle finger into the exit wound. He told the class, "I knew something was wrong, because that hole hadn't been there when I started my shift". He admitted that his first mistake was using the trunk area of the car for cover, instead of the engine portion, but he was scrambling for cover as soon as he arrived, since he was taking fire as he exited his patrol car.

In the two off months, July and August, it was too hot to be on our range, so I used those two months to catch up on loading practice ammunition (60,000+ rounds of .38's per year, and several thousand shotgun rounds), do maintenance on the range and go through all the department's shotguns looking for maintenance issues. I never failed to find at least one broken firing pin in a shotgun during those years, and the first year I did it, I found 4 broken firing pins. Remington 870's shouldn't be dry fired! Other than that, they make a great patrol car shotgun.

In police shootings, rounds have a tendency to be shot low. That's because the officer is looking at the suspect, not his/her sights. I've seen it numerous times in videos of actual shootings. The human tendency is to look directly at the threat, and the brain tells the body to move the object at the end of the arm out of the way so the eyes can see better. That means the shooting hand is usually lowered, even though it's done subconsciously. It takes lots of training to overcome that natural tendency. Like I've always said, the mind is an evil thing..........

As for the FBI load, it's still a good round for the .38 Special revolver. Nothing is perfect, but it does a pretty good job for the power of the caliber. I might also mention that at the time the .38 Special was being transitioned out in the U.S., European Police were transitioning from the .32 acp to the 9x19......

Hope this helps.

Fred

Scharfschuetze

01-06-2016, 10:29 PM

During one academy class, I had every Deputy in the dept. who had been involved in a shooting come in and tell the recruits their experiences, thought processes, etc.

Our State academy also has such a program and I was a guest there. It was very rewarding to do and it was also video taped for future use.

In police shootings, rounds have a tendency to be shot low.

Exactly why we had the instinct shooting in the training schedule. It is also about all you can do at night or in low light conditions without night sights, spot lights or your high beams in support.

ironhead7544

01-07-2016, 01:01 PM

I currently use the 158gr SWCHP +P load in my M12-3 when carrying it. 905 fps from a 4 inch barrel. Cant think of a better one for it. +P loads are not used for practice.

I was issued the 110 gr +P+ load when in federal service. Penetration was speced at 5 and 3/4 inches. Fast expansion was thought to be best in those days.

I knew an FBI Agent who was issued the S&W M13 with 38 Special 158 gr SWCHP +P ammo. Extra ammo carried were 158 gr JHPs. He said that was in case they needed more penetration in some situations.

FergusonTO35

01-07-2016, 04:00 PM

I worked as a criminal records clerk at a large agency for six years and got a lot of glimpses of what LE is like nowadays. Most coppers aren't gun people. I put more rounds downrange annually and had more firearms experience in general than about 95% of them at that agency. Their annual qualification scores were on a drive that I had access to, and I could beat most of them. To be fair though, not everyone can shoot a .40 Glock well (me included), this is all that was authorized for new recruits. More than one cop told me that, out of all the ways you could flunk the academy or probationer training period, no one had ever actually failed the shooting portion although some had to do it over and over until they got 15 out of 20 on the target. They tended to agree that back in the revolver days the average cop was a better shooter, largely due to an emphasis on making shots count and being able to quickly reload, which meant they were required to spend more time on the range.

One copper doing field training said that a rookie fresh from the academy took a revolver off a perp. After putting the cuffs on him and sticking him into the cruiser, the rookie turned the gun over and over in his hands as if he had never seen it before. After a few minutes, he finally asks his trainer how to take the clip out of it.:shock:

9.3X62AL

01-07-2016, 05:13 PM

I was very lucky to have a Dad that enjoyed hunting, and who saw to it that my sister and I--who both had more extensive shooting interests than Dad had--were brought along by knowledgeable mentors.

Makes you wonder when you see new cops so clueless about firearms where their dads/uncles/neighbors were to help them along.

FergusonTO35

01-07-2016, 09:37 PM

My dad, grandfather, and great uncle taught me how to hunt and fish very well. Thing is, none of them were really gun people. To them, guns and ammo were tools for making critters go dead. They taught me to be safe and provided rudimentary instruction on shooting but that's all. Everything I know about reloading and casting has been self taught.

Scharfschuetze

01-08-2016, 09:06 PM

With all the talk of the FBI load, I found an old box of 500 of Speer 158 grain SWCHP boolits and loaded 'em up. Worked pretty well for the memories as well as for groups. As usual, my Model 10 loved 'em.

Group on the left was fired from the bench at 25 yards. Other than the low round on the benched group, 11 of the 12 rounds were just under 2 inches. The right hand group is a composite group from the Model 10 and a model 60 firing my version of the FBI load.

Petrol & Powder

01-08-2016, 09:53 PM

That will do the trick !

Windwalker 45acp

01-09-2016, 11:06 AM

lovely o'l gal you have there Scharf!

I'm just branching out into casting (seriously) for the 38/.357, after spending many years casting only for .45acp, and so far my M28-2 sure does like 4.3 of Unique behind the 358-158-RFs.... not quite the FBI load, but it's hard to argue with the results and makes for a very fun afternoon.

Outpost75

01-09-2016, 11:49 AM

Here is a bunch of old Colts

157637157638157640157644

tazman

01-09-2016, 12:07 PM

I have a 358477 hollow point mold from NOE that throws a 150 grain boolit. I am going to try that type of load with it using air cooled range scrap for alloy. It should be about 10-12 bhn.
Since these will be for home use in 4-6 inch barrels, they should work ok. I need to get some loaded up and tested to be sure though.

Wayne Dobbs

01-09-2016, 12:53 PM

9.3X62AL

01-09-2016, 02:35 PM

Wayne Dobbs

01-09-2016, 02:46 PM

Ah, good old S&W M&P. They hold a special place in my heart, after using one to save my bacon in 1981. I have 5" variants in 32/20 WCF, 38/200, and 38 Special. The latter example is the current "FBI Load Dispenser", my version a short-cut Lyman #358429 that drops at 163 grains atop enough Herco/Unique/WW-231 to prompt about 900 FPS. These hit where the sights look at 25 and 50 yards, and jackrabbits loathe its good work. It won't go in harm's way intentionally. owing to HR 218 and County Counsel over-reaction, but the combo would be quite viable in that venue for someone unhindered by make-work lawyerspeak. It is swinish, how much of what we do is motivated by either the feeding of lawyers, or the attempted avoidance of doing so. Shakespeare was quite correct--"The first thing we do, we kill all the lawyers." (Henry IV, Part II)

My work for Colt's has me traveling all over the country to teach, and when behind enemy lines (the NE and Kommiefornia), I just carry a 3" Model 10 RB, usually loaded with Remington FBI loads on my LEOSA. If in NJ, it's loaded with the Buffalo Bore full power wadcutter ammo, since hollow points are evil there. I love my autopistols for daily carry, but I have to say that a .38 revolver is an absolute comfort zone for me.

Wayne Dobbs

01-09-2016, 02:52 PM

Here is a bunch of old Colts

157637157638157640157644

What a great collection of great revolvers, Outpost! Will that 146 HP open up in real use? I think that the big, fat flat point load looks cool with that gun, too. Looks like it should be in a British holster ready to shoot Nazis, since they had that old .38/200 load way back when.

FergusonTO35

01-09-2016, 03:36 PM

Wow, that 6" barrel model 10 must be what Joker used to shoot down the Batplane in the first Batman flick.

Scharfschuetze

01-09-2016, 04:01 PM

Just got a love 38 Specials.

That 6" M&P is way cool! What load did you use?

My old standby load is 5.0 grains of Unique which is just shy of a +P load or the factory loaded FBI load. It's easy to shoot though and probably doesn't stress my J Frame 38 Specials to any extent.

The loads I was shooting yesterday were loaded with the old Hodgdon's "Clays" powder. I started pretty low and my Chronograph gave an average velocity of just over 700 fps under the 158 grain SWCHP with 2.6 grains. That's a bit light so I'll up things a bit and see how it does on Monday. This powder seems awfully fast as far as its burn rate so I'll probably just keep the caddy that I have on hand for my 12 Gauge skeet and small game loads. It's hard to argue with Unique for upper end 38 Special loads.

Here's my Colt Official Police revolver in 38 Spacial.

dubber123

01-09-2016, 06:15 PM

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh83/dubber123/IMG_3149.jpg (http://s254.photobucket.com/user/dubber123/media/IMG_3149.jpg.html)

My version of the "FBI" load. Cast from 50/50 WW-Pb and air cooled. These were fired from a 1-7/8" S&W, and run a little over 850 fps. Pre-plugging the HP with wax, boolit lube or silicone helps promote consistent expansion.

Outpost75

01-09-2016, 08:48 PM

This is mine, Saeco #358 hollowpointed by www.hollowpointmold.com with .15 diameter core pin having 15 degree draft angle, bullets cast 1:30 tin-lead from Roto Metals, Federal +P cases, Federal 200 primers and 4.2 grains of Bullseye.

157691157693

Scharfschuetze

01-10-2016, 03:45 PM

This is mine, Saeco #358 hollowpointed by www.hollowpointmold.com (http://www.hollowpointmold.com/) with .15 diameter core pin having 15 degree draft angle, bullets cast 1:30 tin-lead from Roto Metals, Federal +P cases, Federal 200 primers and 4.2 grains of Bullseye.

Looks like that Saeco boolit would be perfect for use with speed loaders and might just compete with a SWCHP for energy delivery.

I have the Saeco #385 gang mould which duplicates the military's M41 bullet profile. No HP and it throws 150 grain RN boolits. I used it a lot for action pistol matches with great success as it is accurate and it speed loads like greased lighting during the various stages requiring multiple reloads. With four cavities, I could crank out enough boolits for a fairly aggressive training and match schedule.

It's about the opposite of the FBI SWCHP though and I'd never consider using it for any defensive purposes.

Wayne Dobbs

01-10-2016, 04:31 PM

This is mine, Saeco #358 hollowpointed by www.hollowpointmold.com (http://www.hollowpointmold.com) with .15 diameter core pin having 15 degree draft angle, bullets cast 1:30 tin-lead from Roto Metals, Federal +P cases, Federal 200 primers and 4.2 grains of Bullseye.

157691157693

What is the weight of those bullets, Outpost, and what kind of velocities are you getting from your Colt 2"?

Outpost75

01-10-2016, 05:13 PM

What is the weight of those bullets, Outpost, and what kind of velocities are you getting from your Colt 2"?

They weigh 147 grains. From the Colt DS with 2" barrel and 0.005" cylinder gap 870 fps.

Petrol & Powder

01-10-2016, 06:18 PM

They weigh 147 grains. From the Colt DS with 2" barrel and 0.005" cylinder gap 870 fps.
I would be very happy with that performance. I also agree with Scharfschuetze that it appears to be a speed-loader friendly design.
1:30 alloy makes great bullets. I use that alloy in my downloaded 44 Mag loads and it works beautifully.

RJM52

01-11-2016, 09:40 PM

That brings up an interesting side bar between revolvers and semi-autos. When the highway patrol in my home state adopted the Beretta 92, the average score of the average shooters went up a bit and the scores of the really good shots went down. I often shot with or had coffee with the state boys and they all reported the same phenomenon.

Another point is that only hits count and since the rearming of the American police with semi-autos, the number of rounds fired in gun fights by individual officers has climbed significantly. When LEOs were armed with revolvers, the FBI reported that in the average gun fight, the average officer fired four rounds at a suspect in the dark at about four to six feet with a hit ratio of about 20%. I have no idea what it is now, but if the nightly news is to be believed, then I'm no longer surprised to see officers with over 45 rounds on their gun belt between their handgun and two high capacity magazines.

In the 1970s and 80s the average LE gun fight was 2.5 rounds... The last stats I saw were in the early 2000s and it was now 7 rounds. Average departmental hit ratio nation wide was 29% in 1983....in the early 2000s it had slipped to 19%.

I was in the business from 1972 to 2002...then 5 years as a PI and still qualify yearly for my retired certification. I've also been a firearms instructor since 1991. Personal observation...it isn't the Officers who can't shoot, it is instructors who can't teach. The officers of today are no different than those I worked with....95% of them had no interest in guns either. The difference was the instructors I had in my first job were a) all competitive shooters b) all hunters c) all had killed someone in the line of duty. When a rookie class came out they not only knew how to shoot...they were confident in their ability. Contrast that with the last department I worked with who had a no clue what he was doing chief instructor... 1/3 of the 70 officers struggled to get a passing 75. I worked with 22 of them and all of a sudden these same people are shooting low 90s... I've heard what goes on at our state academy...it isn't pretty and the shooting shows it...

Bob

tazman

01-11-2016, 11:28 PM

In the 1970s and 80s the average LE gun fight was 2.5 rounds... The last stats I saw were in the early 2000s and it was now 7 rounds. Average departmental hit ratio nation wide was 29% in 1983....in the early 2000s it had slipped to 19%.

I was in the business from 1972 to 2002...then 5 years as a PI and still qualify yearly for my retired certification. I've also been a firearms instructor since 1991. Personal observation...it isn't the Officers who can't shoot, it is instructors who can't teach. The officers of today are no different than those I worked with....95% of them had no interest in guns either. The difference was the instructors I had in my first job were a) all competitive shooters b) all hunters c) all had killed someone in the line of duty. When a rookie class came out they not only knew how to shoot...they were confident in their ability. Contrast that with the last department I worked with who had a no clue what he was doing chief instructor... 1/3 of the 70 officers struggled to get a passing 75. I worked with 22 of them and all of a sudden these same people are shooting low 90s... I've heard what goes on at our state academy...it isn't pretty and the shooting shows it...

Bob

From an accidental bystander's point of view, that is scary.

FergusonTO35

01-12-2016, 12:21 PM

LE, like regular citizens, all too often falls under the spell of firepower fanatics and tactical nerds. The PD I worked at no longer allowed anything but .40 caliber Glocks when I left. I'm neither a rookie shooter nor an expert but these guns are not easy to shoot in my opinion. I'm 6'3/290, I can't imagine how difficult it would be for someone half my size to learn to shoot one of these things. I can see alot of flinching and other bad habits develop, which will make shooting under stress even worse than it already is.

robertbank

01-12-2016, 05:22 PM

Since a major portion of this thread is an outstanding history lesson on the 38spl and PD service revolvers the following might be of interest. I own a S&W Mod 686 No Dash. The gun came out of the factory listed as a 4" gun for the US Customs Service. In fact the gun I have has a barrel length of 105.14 mm which is a tad over the 105MM/4" now mandated legal limit for handguns up here. I am not sure how or when the guns were imported into this country but there are a few. I know of three examples of these "4"" guns with barrel lengths in excess of 4" or 105MM.

Were these revolvers common issue and were they in the haqnds of local PD's or was this a Federa Agency only revolver. I understand the gun was never popular among officers due to it's weight. Love the gun and the over 4" barrel is sweet!

Take Care

Bob
PS Thanks to all who contributed to this thread. Some of you may know the 5" Model 10 was the last issued revolver to the RCMP.

9.3X62AL

01-12-2016, 06:24 PM

Bob--the L-frame S&Ws were INSTANTLY popular with our deputies from the time they came out (c. 1981) until the autopistol took hold and took over in mid-1987. The 4" barrels were the most popular length. It remains a very fine 357 Magnum revolver. My own (686 x 4") hails from about 1988 or so and is just too good a firearm to stop carrying. I bought it in 1990, it may have been fired by its first owner--but not very much. I remedied that oversight forthwith, and have continued doing so for 25-odd years. S&W reallu got things right with the L-frames, after some shortcomings on both the N-frames and the K-frames in this caliber.

robertbank

01-12-2016, 06:52 PM

Al when you have a moment would you measure the length of the barrel of your 4" from the face of the forcing cone to the end of the muzzle. I would be curious to know if S&W made all the 686 4" barrels a little longer or not. S&W now makes the 686 "Canadian" Edition which has a 4.2" barrel. Smith did this after Ruger started making the GP-100 4" gun with a 4.2" barrel and posted in their catalog the added length was to conform to the Canadian Gun Laws. Ruger sold a ton of their revolvers up here when it became known among the shooters Ruger produced the gun to allow Canadian to buy it. Smith took a couple of years to respond but they finally did. The GP-100 I have is every bit the gun the 686 is. Identical in size weighing in an ounce less than my 686.

I love my 686 and carry in when in Black Bear country with those 200 gr RN bullets you recommended. Heck of a bullet! A little light for the big Browns but infinitely better than stones and a stick.:o

Take Care

Bob

9.3X62AL

01-12-2016, 07:50 PM

robertbank

01-13-2016, 01:50 AM

Rats, but thanks. I have one and have seen two other Custom Service 686's all with 105+mm barrels. They must have made a special run of them back in the day. The all have CS stamped in the cylinder latch where the serial number is.

Thanks Al and you are right on regarding the .357, always have my Mossberg 500 in hand with a 45 Colt as back up when I am in big bear country.

In any event the L Frame is one heck of a gun. Enjoyed the banter on the 38spl. Good history there.

Take Care

Bob

GabbyM

01-13-2016, 02:47 AM

Brown and grizzly bears are great white sharks for people that don't surf. A 357 Magnum vs. such a critter is about like a kayak paddle to the nose of a GWS--both actually work once in a while.

Length of my 686 example's barrel is 104mm, about 4-1/8". Damn all bureaucrats and apparatchiks.

Al you are a good read. Keep care of yourself. Our President may hate you but we all love you. ;-)

I bought five police trade in 38 specials. Gave one to each of my daughters then kept three. One is already in the will for my first grandchild. Two left. But any of you alls chances of ever seeing one up for sale are less than the moon falling from the sky. I think the days of $250 K frame 38's are gone. When I was a kid we could by like new Springfield 03's for $45. I shoot my 38's because I can hit my target with them. Missing the target is no fun. Don't foresee any gunfights in my future. But I'd imagine the disappointment in missing would be similar. I shoot a solid flat point and wish I had more penetration. Have played with soft HP's and consider them to be extremely inferior to a good TC FP. Unless your target is a tom cat. But my CZ-527 in 222 with cast bullet messes them up big time so I don't load a revolver for varmints. I load my revolvers to shoot through cars. I do cast a hollow point for my 44 magnum.

FergusonTO35

01-13-2016, 11:53 AM

If you look around you can still find police .38's for reasonable prices. One of our local shops got a bunch in last summer from (I think) California DOC, they were stamped CDC on the side. Surprised they weren't sacrificed to Moloch before they made it to the free world. Most were 4" pencil barrels with butt-ugly Hogue grips, I snagged a 4" 10-10 heavy barrel with about 95% finish and wood grips in really nice shape for $300.00. I think the key is to look in the shops off the beaten path.

9.3X62AL

01-13-2016, 12:02 PM

Thank you, Gabby. That narcissistic metro bath house denizen in the White House thinks we are all illiterate knuckle-draggers with par-golf IQs. He and his road dogs can all go pound sand.

Bigslug

01-13-2016, 10:08 PM

Petrol & Powder

01-13-2016, 10:31 PM

The police trade-in 38 Special revolvers are not the great deals they once were but you can still find them from time to time. If you look for them they can still be found.
The history of the 38 Special could fill volumes and yet the guns that used the cartridge were often relegated to the surplus market because they were not "cool".
For decades the majority of U.S. police departments used the cartridge. The Air Force used the model 15 to guard aircraft, bases and even nukes. Snubnose 38 Special revolvers were issued to aircrews. Copies of the K-frames were made in other counties. Federal agencies, including the FBI and the CIA relied on the gun and cartridge. Foreign forces used the 38 Special. The history of the 38 Special is immense.

The 9mm Luger may be the most the widely distributed handgun cartridge in the world but the 38 Special has to be a close second.

tazman

01-13-2016, 10:47 PM

Y'all got me itching to put the HP pins back in my NOE 358429 clone and pour in some 30-1. I think that configuration works out to about 165 grains. Should make for a good M640 load. Only grievance is sorting all my random range .38 brass for length. . .:veryconfu

I am going to try that with my NOE hollow point clone of the Lyman 358477 using air cooled range scrap. Not sure what the weight will be but certain it will be near 145-148 grains. That boolit shoots great in my guns.
Not sure how much difference sorting the brass will make at the distance this ammo is intended to be used. Minute of bad guy at 15-25 feet doesn't require pinpoint accuracy. A 2-3 inch group at those distances would be more than adequate.

Scharfschuetze

01-14-2016, 02:04 AM

Y'all got me itching to put the HP pins back in my NOE 358429 clone and pour in some 30-1. I think that configuration works out to about 165 grains. Should make for a good M640 load. Only grievance is sorting all my random range .38 brass for length. . .:veryconfu

I guess it goes back to my pistol team days on the department where success meant tight groups all the way back to 50 yards, so for serious shooting I still keep my brass sorted out by head stamp. Of course it helps to have a large bucket full or more of Federal 38 Special cases to dip into.

For plinking and for shooting at steel silhouettes, I'm all in with mixed head stamped cases of who knows what length; although still try and keep 'em all in the middle.

FergusonTO35

01-14-2016, 10:35 AM

I spent some time with my Taurus 82 and S&W 637 yesterday. My particular 82 has a really nice trigger both double and single action. Was shooting my usual 3.4 grains Bullseye/150 grain SWC. Both revolvers make neat groups. The Taurus is pretty much dead on, the 637 tends to be one or two inches high although that is likely to be operator error. Taurus seems to have their .38 Specials figured out pretty well, my local fun shop sells a ton of 85's and gets very few back.

I wonder when the .38 Special first entered U.S. military service? I know it was well established by WWII. Were any .38's issued to the Doughboys in 1917?

Windwalker 45acp

01-14-2016, 10:42 AM

sundog

01-14-2016, 10:59 AM

I know this is a .38 Spl thread, but just wanted to clear up that the 45 auto rim (45AR) did not exist prior to 1920. The 45 AR was not a WWI ammo. 45 acp was used in half moon clips in the 1917 revolver.

Windwalker 45acp

01-14-2016, 11:09 AM

GabbyM

01-14-2016, 11:24 AM

Windwalker 45acp

01-14-2016, 11:51 AM

38 Specials were used during WWI by the hundreds of thousands. I'd have to look up the history of the 45 revolvers but don't think they were even produced until after the start of war.

The model 1899 Hand Ejector also known as S&W M&P was produced in 38 Long Colt. After the Philippine American war the round was deemed inadequate. Revolvers were re chambered for what we now know as the 38 S&W Special . New .38 M&P (second model) was introduced in 1902. In 1905, the related S&W Model 1905 was released and production of these alone reached 637,500 units.
I am going by 10th Edition Small Arms of the World and the only calibers that it mentions is .45acp and .455 for our allies, which were also made by S&W and Colt.... so I would be very interested in reading any info you have on that GabbyM.

ReloaderFred

01-14-2016, 12:43 PM

The 1902 and 1917 .45 revolvers were both used in World War I. A good friend has a Colt 1902 in .45 acp that is serial numbered USMC #2 that was bequeathed to him a long time ago. We worked together for many, many years, and he won't sell the gun.

Hope this helps.

Fred

Scharfschuetze

01-14-2016, 12:50 PM

I wonder when the .38 Special first entered U.S. military service? I know it was well established by WWII. Were any .38's issued to the Doughboys in 1917?

Doughboys in the Great War (WW I) were issued the US 1917 Revolver as 1911s were in short supply. Both the Colt and the S&W versions, both in 45 ACP, saw service. WWII saw the issue of the 38 Special on a large scale in what is commonly called the Victory Model S&W. As far as I know it was mostly used by the US Navy, particularly the aviation branch. At one time, 38 Special tracer ammo was quite common for the Victory Model, probably as a signal device for downed airman. I used to shoot these GI tracers sometimes for fun on night qualifications while on the PD. That always brought the rest of the firing line to a halt while I shot the X and 10 rings out of a B 27 target with 'em!

My Dad carried a Victory Model as a Coast Guardsman in WWII. I bought him one once for the memories and it is still his favorite revolver.

As an aside, I saw several Model 10s (virtually identical to the Victory Model) carried by air crewmen in Vietnam. I felt very superior with the 1911A1 that I carried in addition to my primary weapon. The issue M41 FMJ 38 Special load was/is pretty anemic and it doesn't carry near the authority of the FBI load. The 38 Special was on active duty from very late in the 19th Century (1898?) till the adoption of the M9 in 9mm in the mid 80s. The M9 replaced almost all of the 38 Specials still in the inventory once its issue was complete.

Here are the Colt and S&W 1917 Revolvers from WWI as well as the Victory Model from WWII, all from my collection. By the way to keep this on topic, my Victory Model shoots 158 grain SWCHPs to its point of aim at 25 yards with surprising accuracy, although they are standard pressure loads and not +P like the FBI load.

GabbyM

01-14-2016, 12:52 PM

smokeywolf

01-14-2016, 11:11 PM

ReloaderFred

01-15-2016, 12:06 AM

smokeywolf,

I shot PPC matches at the VPD range back in the latter 1970's when I was on the dept. pistol team. If I remember correctly, they had a Camdex loader in their range house for loading their .41 Magnum practice ammunition. One of their team members gave me a .41 Magnum case while there, and the lust was on...

When they traded in their Model 57's to Cheshire & Perez, Henry Perez offered me the opportunity to buy one of the better ones, and then they rebarrelled it to 6" for just the cost of the barrel. At about the same time, a good friend I worked with bought one of the SFPD trade in Model 58's, which he carried for quite a few years.

I believe VPD went to the Model 66 when they traded in their guns. I also bought a trade in Model 39 that had been issued to a Santa Barbara Captain, and I don't think he ever carried it. It was in almost new condition, and still is, though I carried it for awhile as my backup gun when my department forced us to carry the G-22 the last year and a half before I retired. There was a loop hole in our procedure manual that allowed a backup gun that was approved by the rangemaster, and I was in a suit behind a desk by that time, so my duty gun (G-22) stayed in my briefcase and my backup (Model 39) was on my hip. Some jerk snitched me off to the Undersheriff, though...... After that, the G-22 remained in my briefcase and none of the public knew I was a cop, since I dressed more like a businessman due to my job at the time...

I was just looking at my inventory of bullets, and I've got quite a supply of 158 gr. SWC lead bullets. I also have a SWCHP swaging die, so I'm going to convert a bunch of those bullets to SWCHP and load them up to the old FBI load. They're going to be shot through my Model 10's and Model 15, just for the sake of nostalgia.

Fred

Bigslug

01-15-2016, 12:33 AM

Not sure how much difference sorting the brass will make at the distance this ammo is intended to be used. Minute of bad guy at 15-25 feet doesn't require pinpoint accuracy. A 2-3 inch group at those distances would be more than adequate.

It's much more a question of consistent case length for seating depth and crimp groove location than cutting x-rings.

FergusonTO35

01-15-2016, 02:09 PM

From what I can tell, after WWII the U.S. Military augmented their supply of 1911's with .38 Special wheelguns to the point that non-frontline personnel and pilots were more likely to carry a .38 than a .45. Ruger sold them plenty of Service Sixes and Speed Sixes. My BIL is career Army and says there are still quite a few wheelguns in armories, they just are never issued.

35remington

01-15-2016, 02:59 PM

robertbank

01-15-2016, 03:24 PM

Military branches having to do with combat issued the 1911 and its ascendancy for that use was never really challenged by revolvers from WW2 onward. As mentioned above revolvers were used as a way of keeping the peace in peacetime.
Well I think it may go back further. At one time, WW1, officers carried a revolver for a number of reasons. One they were Officers, hence the revolver but more importantly during the war they were there to ensure the men ran in the right direction. To quote my Grand- dad when asked by his young grandson why the Canadians held the line at Ypres when the first gas was released his answer was simple. "Robert if we stayed in the trenches the gas would kill us, if we ran the officers would shoot us so we just got up and fought." Even at 15 I was smart enough not to ask if it ever happened. There are some things better left in the past. The 2nd reason for handguns in WW1 being one of them.

From what I read the revolvers were useless in the trenches along the Western Front when the rains came. The 1911 the Americans had was more useful in the trenches due to it's size and capacity and was less likely to jam up in the mud.

I do agree though by the end of WW1 the revolver as a front line weapon was certainly on the decline if not completely obsolete. My uncle carried a 38 S&W Revolver with him for his time in Italy and NW Europe. Never had it out of the holster, preferring the 75MM of the Sherman when in the tank.

Take Care

Bob

35remington

01-15-2016, 03:32 PM

Bob, I did say "from WW2 onward."

robertbank

01-15-2016, 04:30 PM

Bob, I did say "from WW2 onward."

Yup and I agree. I just wanted to point out the revolver, while issued during WW1 really did not play much of a roll. You see pictures of Officers going over the top carrying them but most would never have got much use out of them other than what I alluded to. The 1911, from what I understand was far more useful in the trenches but even then you folks were really only involved for four or five months at the end so even the 1911 would not have played much of a roll. Someone more famous than I once said no army goes off to war armed solely with a handgun. I suspect gun types like us put way more importance to the handgun than military folks do.

Take Care

Bob

eli

01-16-2016, 03:45 AM

I have to say, this thread has been a real education for me, thanks to all who have contributed!
About a week ago, I put a S&W model 10 on layaway at a local pawn shop; it's my first .38, a 4" beater and I already have an Ideal 358156 mold, from a trade or purchase, here on castboolits, from years ago.

I didn't (don't) know enough about S&W handguns to look for a model number on the cylinder assembly, but I suspect it is a 10-5. The serial is C 371XX, with the 'C' well forward of the number, on the butt.

The finish is gone on this gun, but that may explain why it was dropped in price down to U.S. $200, after waiting for a new owner for who knows how long, on a shelf full of shiny new Taurus .38's, etc, for not so much more money.

I have to ask, are gas checks really needed on these 38's at midrange .38 Special power ratings, at 25-50 yard distances?

Did any of the above mentioned departments try plain base bullets when comparing effectiveness of bullet designs and loads?

mcdaniel.mac

01-16-2016, 03:53 AM

At $200 I'd pick it up too! I'm kicking myself for not grabbing a 10 and a couple of trade-in 64s back when they were cheaper.

dubber123

01-16-2016, 06:27 AM

tazman

01-16-2016, 08:11 AM

No need for gas checks at 38 special power levels. Not enough pressure or speed to warrant their use.

jonp

01-16-2016, 08:32 AM

S&W and Colt were making the large frame revolvers for Briton before the USA entered the war. US started acquiring them in 45 acp after our entry. The M&P revolvers in 38 Special. Either the re chambered ones or new models. Were the revolvers in U.S. Service before the conflict. SSA and Model 3's having been retired. What I don't know is how many of the 637,500 units of Model 1905 went to the US military. Probably not all that many. But there were zero Model 1917 in 45 acp in the hands of the US army before the start of our involvement in WWI. US bought some Colt New Service before WWI in 45 Colt. But I can’t find how many. 1911 was the new sidearm but it was in short supply. The M&P was a US military arm and remained so through both wars. S&W exported it to many nations before the war and knockoffs were produced. Turkey and the Slaves had 38 Specials. Of course we produced millions of various firearms in short order.

Just do a search of history on the M&P. Page after page will pop up.

I just read a history of the 45ACP Revolver last week or the week before on the SW Forum. Your post sums it up pretty good if I remember right. At the start of the war there were not enough 1911's in service and not enough could be produced so The Government in an uncharacteristic display of common sense asked Manu's to supplement production of 1911's with revolvers in the same caliber and SW came up with moon clips to make it happen. Later they changed the cylinders by reaming them with a shoulder to allow the revolvers to headspace on the casemouth to allow use without the half moon clips but there was still an extraction issue.

Petrol & Powder

01-16-2016, 09:19 AM

robertbank

01-16-2016, 11:15 AM

eli
I agree with the others, gas checks are not needed in that application.
When you get that gun check it over for mechanical condition such as timing, hammer push off, etc. If you're not familiar with S&W K-frames there are lots of folks on this forum that are. Check the strain screw [located on the bottom of the front strap near the butt] that screw should be bottomed out and snug. You'll find a lot of used S&W revolvers for sale that someone has backed that screw out to reduce the trigger pull weight. That is NOT the correct method and that screw should be tight. Speaking of screws, if you're going to do any work on a S&W (or any other gun) get the proper screw drivers. You only need about 3 different screwdriver bits for most S&W revolvers and they're a one-time, lifetime investment.
Clean the gun and shoot it ! If you're happy with it great. If you want to re-finish it later on that would be an excellent candidate for a re-finish project.

I must warn you that the 4" DA 38 Special revolver is extremely addictive. They're inexpensive to shoot, accurate, easy to cast & reload for and deceptively fun. The addiction takes hold quickly.

Good Luck :cool:

Great post and excellent information on the mainspring. Kicking myself for passing on a few Model 10's over the years. I have promised myself a 5" Model 10 is my next purchase. I just picked up a CZ 75 New Edition which has been my most recent "must have gun". Now thanks to a few, who know who they are, I now have an itch that has to be scratched.

FYI the RCMP still have a huge supply of Model 10's NIB in stores. They give them out to their dog men to use as training weapons for their dogs. I had the pleasure of shooting one before it went into service. The officers drive down gravel roads and toss the guns in ditches. Their dogs the go out and find them. The gun I shot on the range that day was turned into a piece of junk within two weeks. Made me cry.

Take Care

Bob

Petrol & Powder

01-16-2016, 03:31 PM

"....The officers drive down gravel roads and toss the guns in ditches. Their dogs the go out and find them. The gun I shot on the range that day was turned into a piece of junk within two weeks. Made me cry....."

AHHHHHHHHH - PLEASE STOP !!!!!

robertbank

01-16-2016, 03:35 PM

I wish I could. I even offered to give them a 75B to use. They really have no choice and I knew the answer but lets face it the guns are just tools and on balance if their dogs get better at the job we ask them to do we win.

Take Care

Bob

eli

01-16-2016, 04:35 PM

158332Thanks for the feedback, I was thinking it would be OK without checks but this thread has been so informative, I had to ask the question.

I am sure Bubba has been into this revolver, two buggered screwheads on the right side, wrong driver tip. Mechanics seem to be good, though I might want to replace the barrel at some point. I'll get a gunsmith to give it the once over.

9.3X62AL

01-16-2016, 04:51 PM

Those buggered-up screws can be replaced easily. Brownell's has all sorts of small parts for S&Ws.

I wouldn't be in a big hurry to change out that barrel, unless is has extensive pitting or trumpet-muzzle from cleaning rod damage. Even then, these revolvers can shoot remarkably well.

You did VERY WELL for $200.

robertbank

01-16-2016, 06:21 PM

Man I am loving those grips.

Take care

Bob

Windwalker 45acp

01-16-2016, 06:46 PM

I do too, in fact I like the worn and weathered look of the bluing as well. Leave it as is and shoot the snot out of it.

Thumbcocker

01-16-2016, 10:01 PM

That gun has lived and could tell some stories I bet.

FergusonTO35

01-17-2016, 01:55 PM

Loss of finish not caused by neglect is character. My 10-5 came from the estate of a Lexington cop. It has lots of honest holster wear but no rust and is mechanically like new. I bet it could tell some stories!

fecmech

01-17-2016, 06:44 PM

I might want to replace the barrel at some point.
Unless someone screwed it up cleaning it as Al suggested I'm not sure you can wear one out. I shot PPC with mine in the 70's and 80's and when I sent it to S&W in the 90's for a gas ring it had over 48,000 rds through it. Mostly wadcutter but also about 3K GI jacketed ball in that mix. The repairman at Smith suggested a new barrel and I was going to have him do it but all they had were lugged barrels which I didn't want. He then suggested turning the barrel in one thread and recutting the forcing cone which he did. I have put many thousands of rounds through it since and today with good ammo it will still stay well inside the 10 ring on a 50 yd bullseye target off the bench. Lead bullets at .38 spl velocities are pretty easy on barrels.

Petrol & Powder

01-17-2016, 07:32 PM

As others have stated, it's pretty hard to wear out a 38 Special revolver barrel. Unless it was abused it will likely be fine.

MT Gianni

01-17-2016, 08:52 PM

Agreed, fast DA shooting will wear the hand and timing mechanism but the bbl should still be fine unless subjected to cleaning abuses.

eli

01-17-2016, 11:50 PM

The barrel looks fine, no pitting, didn't see any bulges or excess wear areas. I have been looking at getting a 38/357 Ruger or S&W Model 60, with a long view toward a purchase, when I came across this revolver by happenstance.

We shoot .22's, short to magnum, .44's and .45acp but I primarily wanted a firearm my Rozeann could enjoy extended rangetime with and with enough umph! to make a difference in home defense, should she need it.
The change to a 4" heavy barrel would have been to put a little more weight forward for her, for faster recovery, period.

She is proud she can handle a.44 Super Blackhawk, but it's just not practical for a house pet.

And yes, this Smith & Wesson has a lot of character!

Petrol & Powder

01-18-2016, 10:30 AM

Re-barreling a 4" K-frame just to get a little more muzzle forward weight would not be worth the expense and effort. The 38 Special doesn't produce much recoil to start with and unless you are an exceptional shot, the difference in recovery time between a heavy barrel and a standard barrel is almost imperceptible.
I have examples of 4" K-frames with both heavy and standard barrels and they shoot equally as well. The muzzle forward weight of the heavy barrel may help steady the gun for some shooters but it has been my experience that most female shooters do better with the standard barrel.
The 4" K-frame chambered in 38 Special is one of the all time great hand guns! That design has endured because it does so many things so well.

Bigslug

04-02-2016, 12:35 AM

A fine ruddy lot of enablers you guys are! :mrgreen:

165145

Turns out my NOE 358429 drops at about 160-161 grains with the HP pins installed when using 25-1 rendered from jacketed range scrap. 6.7 grains of HS6 in .38 cases ran a tad over 900 fps in a 6" gun, and about 870 in a 4" one. Didn't get chrono data for the 2", but got other good intel from that.

Shot a row of milk jugs with the 6" and the 2" for the recovered slugs above. Both stopped in jug number four and had 83% and 84% weight retention on both.

Makes me a happy camper!:happy dance:

9.3X62AL

04-02-2016, 11:07 AM

Enablers-R-Us.

Tim357

07-01-2020, 12:11 AM

Ok, so I found this old thread. The subject is near and dear to me. Thanks for all the great history and the stories. Lots of good stuff here.

M-Tecs

07-01-2020, 01:30 AM

Ok, so I found this old thread. The subject is near and dear to me. Thanks for all the great history and the stories. Lots of good stuff here.

I had forgotten about it but I enjoyed re-reading it. Miss the days when threads like this were common.

Outpost75

07-01-2020, 11:31 AM

I have enjoyed reading this thread again also. The following article appeared in The Fouling Shot issue #262

Retired “cop guns” still “serve and protect.”
Standard-Pressure .38 Special Loads for the Revolver and Cowboy Rifle

C.E. “Ed” Harris, Gerrardstown, WV

"Were it necessary for the average shooter to own and use but one revolver, it should be a .38 Special." J.S. Hatcher, Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers (1935),

From the post WW1-era until about 1980 the most widely used police handgun in the United States was a revolver chambered for the .38 Special. Introduced as a black powder cartridge in 1902, S&W simply lengthened the .38 Long Colt case from 1.03” to 1.155” to hold a heavier 21-grain vs. 18-grain black powder charge and increased its bullet weight from 148 to 158 grains. But, the most important improvements were optimizing the barrel and chamber dimensions to correctly guide and support an “inside lubricated” bullet of adequate diameter to fit the cylinder throats and the groove diameter of the barrel. S&W established these principles years earlier in perfecting the .44 Russian black powder and later .44 S&W Special smokeless cartridges, which greatly improved target accuracy.

Traditional .38 Special police service ammunition featured a 158-grain, lead round-nose, wax-lubricated, cup-based bullet of soft lead, propelled to 855 +/- 25 fps as measured from a 6-inch solid industrial test barrel. Typical revolver velocity was about 700 fps from a 2-inch snub, 800 fps in a 4-inch service gun, and about 840 fps in a 6” target revolver. Actual test results of vintage ammo depend upon manufacturing variations in barrel groove, cylinder throat diameter, and cylinder gap.

[The expected Delta-V with standard-pressure lead .38 Special ammunition is about 10 fps for each 0.001” change in barrel-cylinder gap from Mean Assembly Tolerance of 0.005-0.006”. Therefore, a 2-inch gun assembled at minimum tolerance (0.002” pass/0.003” hold) could theoretically produce higher velocity than a 4-inch gun at the customer service maximum (0.008” pass/0.009” hold)- Ed.].

After WW1 black powder loadings were replaced by smokeless. Hatcher (1935) described typical factory charges of 3.6 grains Hercules Bullseye, 18 grains of King’s Semi-Smokeless or 4.2 grains of Infallible. Once smokeless powder loads were adopted, the .38 Special became and remained the standard for US law enforcement and target shooters, making the .38 Long Colt obsolete by 1920.

The .38 Special is the most accurate revolver cartridge ever developed. Ten-shot groups fired from industrial test barrels or the best target revolvers are routinely 2" or less at 50 yards. Colt, Ruger and S&W police service revolvers were expected to produce groups of this order when firing common duty ammunition of average quality at 25 yards. Good revolvers often did much better with wadcutter loads. If you don't currently own any handgun, but have been thinking about getting one, you really can't go wrong with a sturdy .38 Special (or .357) retired “cop” gun. For this very reason the .38 Special still enjoys great popularity in US states where civilian concealed carry is permitted.

“Mid-range” target 148-grain wadcutters are ideal for general use. They are accurate, give a good knockdown blow on small game, and don't destroy much meat. They are a valid choice for personal or home defense carry in "airweight" or aluminum alloy-framed guns which cannot handle +P loads.

“Full-charge” wadcutter ammunition, which was loaded to “service velocity” was produced by the big ammunition factories for police academy and in-service training use prior to about 1970. The equivalent can be assembled today by hand loaders using cast, solid-based 146-148-grain wadcutters and 3.5 grains of Bullseye or TiteGroup. Factory loads are available from Buffalo Bore.

The ideal .38 Special general-purpose load for dual-use in revolvers and cowboy rifles is a cast lead ogival flat-nose “Cowboy” bullet weighing 145 to 160 grains. This feeds reliably in lever actions, and is “speed-loader friendly” for revolver use. Hard bullets are neither necessary nor desired. Soft lead of 8-10 BHN is best. Range backstop scrap or 50-50 plumber’s lead and wheel weights with a bit of tin added to improve fill-out is good. Frugal shooters value the fact that 3.5 grains of Bullseye or TiteGroup loads 2000 rounds from a pound of powder, to closely approximate factory ammunition.

Standard-pressure .38 Special ammunition (SAAMI MAP 17,000 psi max.) is most economical and practical for general recreation, field and utility use. It does not make your hand sting or your ears ring. It is more accurate out to 50 yards or meters from a revolver or 100 from a rifle, than anyone over age 50 can shoot with iron sights. A revolver dispersion of “one inch per ten” (yards) is considered acceptable for “service-grade” loads, but the best lots of 158-grain lead round-nose or semi-wadcutters approach the grouping expected of match wadcutters.

Carefully prepared hand loads with factory bulk-packed Remington 148-grain hollow-based wadcutter component bullets and 3.0-3.2 grains of Bullseye produce 2 inch, 6-shot groups at 50 yards or better from a test barrel or carefully assembled target revolver. My test platform is a Unertl-scoped BSA Martini-Cadet with 1:20” twist Green Mountain barrel and .38 AMU chamber. My best Remington-UMC, Bridgeport, CT wadcutter from the 1950s averages 1-1/2” ten-shot groups at 50 yards. A service-grade Colt, Ruger or S&W revolver will usually do about three to four inches at 50 yards firing from Ransom Rest. A good target revolver can shave an inch off that. Any well turned out .38 Special is fully adequate for field shooting small game and varmints, as well as for home defense duty.

“Traditional,” (not +P) standard-pressure factory .38 Special 158-grain lead ammo, produces about 1000 f.p.s. from a 20-inch Cowboy rifle, approximating the energy of .38 Special +P ammunition fired in a 6-inch revolver, but with lower noise. Good cast bullet hand loads will do the same with good accuracy IF your bullets “fit” the cylinder throats, and you use moderate charges which produce uniform, subsonic rifle velocities, which avoid transonic buffeting.

In .38 Special the velocity and pressure of standard 158-gr. lead factory ammo is matched by loading either 3.5 grains of Bullseye, 4 grains of 231, 452AA, or WST or 4.5 grains of WSF, 473AA, Universal, AutoComp, Unique or Herco. Typical velocity data is summarized in Table 2.

[+P loads are beyond the scope of this article, and will be addressed separately in a future entry to The Back Creek Diaries].

The Saeco #348 double-end, bevel-based wadcutter, cast 8-10 BHN, loaded unsized, and profile taper-crimped into the crimp groove, at 1.20” OAL over 3.5 grains of Bullseye is a full charge, but standard pressure load giving about 860 fps in a 6-inch revolver having 0.004-0.006” cylinder gap. It averages 2 inches or better at 50 yards at 1030 fps from my 25-inch BSA Martini with 6X Unertl scope and does nearly as well when feeding it as a “two-shooter” from my Marlin 1894 Cowboy II.

Wadcutters do not produce linear dispersion when target range increases very much beyond about 50 yards or meters, when shot from the standard S&W 18-3/4” twist barrel. A faster twist of rifling, such as the 1:10” used in 9mm Parabellum barrels and some custom PPC guns, will shoot very well past 100 yards. I would refer your attention to Bill Duncan’s article in FS 258-19 for specifics.

For dual-use in rifle and revolver ringing the 100-yard gong I prefer either the Accurate 36-155D or 36-159H flat-nosed cast bullets. Those who don’t cast can get good results from the bulk, soft-swaged 158-grain LRN Magtech cup-based bullets, over-lubed on top of the factory blue wax with 45-45-10 or LLA, loaded loading the same 3.5 grains of Bullseye. Speer 158-grain LRN and SWC bullets also shoot well, but are more expensive. All of these feed reliably from lever-actions and are good choices for field utility loads for either rifle or revolver. Hand-held from sandbags revolver groups even with 2-inch guns are “one inch per ten” [yards] or better out to 25 yards. Rifle iron sight groups of 3-4 minutes of angle, being proportional to the range are normal to well over 100 yards.

Norma .38 Special 158-gr. LRN loads fired previously as reference ammunition from my BSA Martini with 6XUnertl scope averaged 3” at 100 yards. Speer and Remington factory swaged lead round nose and semi-wad cutter bullets loaded in .38 Special cases with 3.5 grains of Bullseye averaged about 4 inches at 100 yards. Vintage 1950s factory loads such as Remington Targetmaster LRN, Western Lubaloy, WRA and Rem-UMC Police Service all fell into the same accuracy range.

+P,.38 Special cast loads fired in the Martini Cadet and Marlin cowboy rifles did not group as well at 100 yards as subsonic, standard-pressure factory or hand loads. This is because bullets are subjected to transonic buffeting as their velocity decays below the speed of sound. A good working velocity benchmark for .38 Special Cowboy rifle loads to also be used in a revolver is to seek from 900 to 1080 f.p.s. from a 20-inch barrel, so there is no “crack” to disturb the neighbors.

A flat-nosed .38 Special bullet with meplat 0.6 or more of bullet diameter is effective on groundhogs, wild turkey and larger edible critters raiding your garden, providing through-and-through penetration, with minimal meat damage so that you can “eat right up to the bullet hole!”

Table 1 - 38 Special Factory Loads - Velocity vs. Barrel Length

_________________S&W Mod.10, 2” S&W Mod.10 4”__ S&W HE 6”____BSA Cadet 25”
------------------------0.005”cyl.gap___0.005”cyl.gap_____0.005”cyl.gap___ solid barrel

Rem-UMC 148 HBWC_702 fps, 12 Sd__747 fps, 6 Sd____804 fps, 7 Sd____897fps, 17Sd
WRA SM 148 HBWC__697 fps, 18 Sd__742 fps, 13 Sd___783 fps, 13 Sd___857 fps, 11 Sd
W-W Q4196 158 LRN__728 fps, 24 Sd _793 fps, 10 Sd___814 fps, 19 Sd___958 fps, 13 Sd
Rem-UMC 200 LRN___627fps, 27 Sd__702 fps, 22 Sd___ 747 fps, 16 Sd___895 fps, 15 Sd
Win. 158-gr. LHP +P___831 fps, 10 Sd__920 fps 21 Sd___952 fps, 11 Sd__1093 fps, 19 Sd

Column Mean________717 fps_______781 fps________820 fps________940 fps
∆V from 4”_________-64 fps________Baseline_______+39 fps________+159 fps

Table 2 - Standard Pressure .38 Special Load Data

_________________Ruger SP101, 2” Ruger Serv.Six 4”___Marlin 24”
--------------------------0.005”cyl.gap___0.005”cyl.gap________solid barrel

Saeco #348 146 DEWC, wheel weights, OAL 1.25”
3.0 grs. Bullseye_____691fps, 9 Sd___736 fps, 15 Sd_______804 fps, 17 Sd
3.5 grs. Bullseye_____792 fps, 9 Sd___863 fps, 7 Sd_______1062 fps,5 Sd
4.0 grs. W231_______653 fps, 21 Sd__ 837 fps, 22 Sd______900 fps, 32 Sd

Saeco #358 160-grain “Cowboy” FN, wheel weights, OAL 1.45”
3.0 grs. Bullseye_____650 fps, 26 Sd__825 fps, 18 Sd_______884 fps, 7 Sd
3.5 grs. Bullseye_____711 fps, 14 Sd__853 fps, 21 Sd_______956 fps, 7 Sd
4.0 grs. Bullseye_____809 fps, 13 Sd__901, fps, 12 Sd______1096 fps, 3 Sd
4.9 grs. AutoComp___725 fps, 10 Sd__850 fps, 15 Sd_______1001 fps, 34 Sd

Accurate 36-190T Flat nose, 195 grains 1:30 alloy, OAL 1.53”
2.7 grs. Bullseye_____595 fps, 29 Sd__685 fps, 28 Sd_______789 fps, 12 Sd
3.0 grs. Bullseye_____631 fps, 14 Sd__716 fps, 28 Sd_______816 fps, 13 Sd
3.2 grs. Bullseye_____662 fps, 7 Sd___737 fps, 11 Sd_______865 fps, 24 Sd
4.5 grs. AutoComp___603 fps, 7 Sd___735 fps, 18 Sd_______911fps, 30 Sd

Outpost75

07-01-2020, 11:40 AM

The followup to the previous article covers the development of +P loads, in The Fouling Shot issue #263

Tales From The Back Creek Diary - Old Cop Guns Retire to Outdoor Duty

“Loads for the .38-44 High Velocity (.38 Special +P) or .357 Revolver and Cowboy Rifle”

By the late 1920s, US law enforcement agencies sought revolver ammunition producing better “stopping power” which could also defeat metal automobile bodies. Two approaches tried were a heavier 200-grain .38 Special, following the British Army pattern, and a high-velocity loading of the standard 158-grain round-nosed lead bullet. The 200-grain Super Police load at 685 fps produced mixed results, but the Super-X and Remington High Velocity 158-grain LRN loads at 1125 fps quickly earned street “cred.” S&W introduced its .38/44 Heavy Duty, built on the heat-treated .44 Hand Ejector frame in 1930, with 5-inch barrel and fixed sights. A 4-inch version followed in 1935, the first such specimen being given to J. Edgar Hoover of the FBI.

The .38-44 High Velocity loads were intended only for the Colt New Service, Official Police and S&W Heavy Duty (N-frame) revolvers. Both lead round-nose and “metal capped” versions were offered. Advertising of the gangster era indicated that the .38-44 Super-X cartridge could penetrate eleven 7/8 inch thick pine boards or just as easily perforate a metal auto trunk lid, seats, dashboard and firewall clear into the engine compartment.

The S&W .38/44 Heavy Duty and Colt Official Police were readily accepted by cash-strapped Depression-era police departments whose budgets didn’t allow expensive, S&W .357 “Registered Magnums” and Colt Shooting Masters. S&W Heavy-Duty production totaled 11,111 before halted for WWII. Glowing field reports encouraged Smith & Wesson to develop the .357 Magnum in 1935. Elmer Keith, D.B. Wesson and Phillip B. Sharpe experimented with heavy charges of SR80 and later #2400 powder in the .38 Special, loading a long-nosed Keith SWC bullet, which enabled reducing seating depth to maintain maximum powder capacity. When US ammunition factories finally introduced the .357 Magnum, its cartridge case was lengthened by 0.135” to preclude its being chambered in older .38 Special revolvers, as a safety feature. This proved to be correct.

After WWII, S&W began shipping .38/44 Heavy Duty revolvers again in the summer of 1946. Postwar S&W serial numbers are prefixed by the letter S. There were over 8,700 transition models manufactured between 1946-1950. Heavy N-frame S&W .38 Special revolvers proved popular with hand loaders who experimented with heavy charges which approached .357 Magnum performance. The 38/44 Heavy Duty Model of 1950 was also in great demand during the Korean conflict, because the Super-X and Remington Highway Master Metal Penetrating ammunitions were said to defeat Chinese body armor, which stopped .45 ACP hardball.

In 1954 S&W introduced a plain-finished .357 Magnum on the .44 Hand Ejector frame with 4-inch barrel and adjustable sights, which it named the Highway Patrolman. This ultimately sturdy duty gun of cop’s dreams continued in production until 1986. In 1957, the "Heavy Duty" fixed sight .38 Special was designated the S&W Model 20, while the adjustable-sighted .38 Special "Outdoorsman" became the Model 23 and the adjustable sight .357 Magnum Highway Patrolman became the Model 28.

Production of the S&W .38-44 Heavy Duty Model 20 continued into the early 1960s. The last known Model 20s (no dash) were shipped in 1963. The last known Model 20-marked guns, were Model 20-2s shipped in late 1964 to the Austin, TX Police Department. In 1966, the Model 20 was finally dropped from the S&W catalog. From 1946-1966, a total of 20,604 S&W Heavy Duty revolvers were manufactured. Compared to other S&W models the .38-44 Heavy Duty is scarce and is eagerly sought out by both collectors and serious shooters.

Colt came late to the party. When WW2 ended, Colt made a monumental marketing blunder. Management assumed (in error) that its post-War customers would still buy the same fixed sight, .38 Special revolvers they had before the war. It was presumed that the .357 Magnum would be a low-volume, low-profit, specialty item, so upper management ignored it. Because the New Service and Shooting Master models were discontinued during the war, this left Colt then with no double-action revolver in production which could be chambered for the .357. Only a few Shooting Master .357s were produced from 1935-1940 and these are highly collectible.

Realizing their mistake a day late and a dollar short, an improved medium-frame revolver was built on the Official Police "E" frame, changing the hammer mounted firing pin to a spring loaded firing pin mounted inside the frame. Heat treatment was enhanced to increase strength to handle the .357 Magnum round. The new frame was designated as the "I" frame, introduced in 1953 as The Colt .357, manufactured until 1961 when it was discontinued after about 15,000 revolvers had been produced.

Municipal police departments couldn’t afford the higher-priced Colt .357, preferring the lower-cost, “plain-vanilla” .38 Special Colt Trooper or its S&W competitors, the .38-44 Heavy Duty or .357 Highway Patrolman. With Colt .357 sales lagging, the company simplified its revolver line in 1961 by discontinuing the Colt 357 and offering a lower-priced, plain-finished Trooper in .357 Magnum as well as in .38 Special. The original Colt .38 Trooper was manufactured on the "E" frame used for the Army Special and Official Police, which had the firing pin pivoted on the hammer. The Colt 357 and Python both used the "I" frame. In 1961 Colt switched all Trooper production to the "I" frame, producing an affordable, sturdy, plain-finished cop gun and completely discontinued the "E" frame. The Trooper .357 sold fairly well until 1969 when Colt discontinued all of their old-style "E&I" frame revolvers except for the Python.

In the 1970s the Southwestern Institute of Forensic Sciences as well as the National Institute of Law Enforcement and Criminal Justice evaluated the effectiveness of incapacitation achieved by firing common .38 Special police duty ammunition. This was accomplished by comparing “energy deposit” data from test firings in ballistic gelatin tissue simulant. Both studies agreed that .38 Special revolvers firing 158 grain lead round nose at any velocity were inferior in "stopping power" to other calibers and bullet designs. As street criticism of the .38 Special cartridge increased in intensity, a few US police agencies adopted the .357 Magnum, 9mm Luger or .45 ACP. But the great majority of police departments simply wanted more effective .38 Special ammunition, which could be used safely in their existing revolvers. Again, two schools of thought were pursued.

From 1963-74 Lee Jurras of Super Vel developed light-weight, jacketed hollow-point .38 Special loads capable of producing reliable expansion from standard revolvers, while reducing the risk of over-penetration. Super Vel proved the concept, but in 1974 the company was bought out by its competitors. By the late 1960s and early 70s Winchester dominated the .38 Special law enforcement ammunition market. Winchester-Western continued to improve the already established Super Vel concepts by introducing the modern skived jacket in its 110-grain jacketed HP Q4070 Treasury load. Soon after they followed with a 158-grain all-lead hollow-point which became widely known as the “FBI Load. Both of these specialty ammunitions substantially exceeded standard pressure, being designated on their packaging “For Law Enforcement Use Only.”

The great advantage of standard-weight, soft-lead, semi-wadcutters was that they would shoot to the fixed sights of most existing department revolvers, and did not require re-zeroing. Hollow points of soft alloy, having correct cavity geometry would expand even when fired from 2-inch barrels, when loaded to the higher velocities and pressure of what later became known as +P loads. Barrel leading and cylinder binding were recognized as problems in revolvers not having a cylinder gas ring to reduce lead deposits getting into the crane arbor. S&W therefore changed the location of the gas ring from the yoke to the cylinder itself.

While improved .38 Special high-velocity loadings assembled with all-lead or serrated-jacket hollow point bullets improved street performance, it was soon realized that .38 Special cartridges generating pressures substantially exceeding about 16,000 cup could not be fired continuously in small steel frame, such as the Colt Police Positive, S&W J-frame or any light-alloy frame revolvers, such as the S&W Airweight models or Colt Cobra or Agent, without severely curtailing the service life of the guns. This was because they were not designed to withstand high-volume fire of the more powerful ammunition. To mitigate against inadvertent use of high velocity ammunition in older service weapons which were not specifically designed for it, the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturer’s Institute (SAAMI) adopted, in 1974, the practice of identifying higher pressure ammunition exceeding 17,000 c.u.p. with a +P head-stamp.

.38 Special: 17,000 psi (std.); 20,000 psi (+P) = 17% increase in pressure

By the mid-1970s most police organizations found it most cost-effective to replace their older .38 Special revolvers with similarly-sized .357 models which incorporated the necessary heat treatment and engineering enhancements to improve ruggedness and durability. Ruger recognized a marketing opportunity and developed its “Six” series service revolvers. After a rough initial start, early quality and reliability issues of the Ruger Service, Speed and Security Six were resolved. By the late 1970s the Ruger was a viable competitor in government contracts to Colt and S&W.

Sturdy revolvers such as the Colt Trooper, Ruger Six series, S&W 13 and 19 could use lower-cost .38 Special ammunition for training and practice, and held up to high-volume training and duty use of .38 Special +P ammunition, while retaining the ability to fire full-charge .357 Magnum loads if the tactical situation required.

In 1972, the FBI officially adopted the Winchester XD38SPD .38 Special +P all-lead, hollow-point semi-wadcutter. This expanded well in ordnance gelatin tissue simulant when fired at typical velocities produced by the service revolvers then issued. The FBI load proved highly satisfactory in numerous officer involved shootings using both 2- and 4-inch barreled revolvers and was widely adopted by many Federal, state and municipal law enforcement agencies. Remington and Federal thereafter developed equivalents to compete in contract bid processes. The Remington R38S12 load is still manufactured, whereas Federal’s 38G is not.

New York State Troopers Law Enforcement Evaluation of the .357 Magnum

In 1968 the New York State Troopers evaluated the .357 Magnum cartridge for State Police service, comparing the .38 Special Smith and Wesson Model 10 and .357 Magnum Smith and Wesson Model 19 revolvers, both models being equipped from the factory with four-inch barrels. Testing was done with then current-issue .38 Special 158 Grain lead SWC standard pressure and the .357 Magnum 158 Grain JSP loads, both manufactured by Remington. Published catalog velocity of the .38 Special from a 6 inch solid test barrel was 855 fps, and the .357 Magnum – from an 8-3/8" test barrel - 1550 fps. Actual measured revolver velocity of the .38 Special from a 4-inch barrel, firing standard pressure Remington 158-grain SWC ammo was 789 fps, versus 1,238 fps for .357 Magnum soft-points of the same brand and bullet weight.

Penetration testing involved shooting through 12-inch square panels of 5/8 inch thick, five-ply plywood, spaced two inches apart, stacked one behind the other. The .38 Special penetrated 6 boards, whereas the .357 penetrated 9 boards. NY State Troopers were trained to "stop” the aggressor from continuing resistance. The chosen ammunition selected for police service must discourage ricochets, penetrate auto bodies, expand on contact, yet remain in one intact piece to facilitate positive forensic identification.

During the New York State Troopers evaluation of the .357 Magnum, a prime concern was whether the average Trooper could handle the additional muzzle blast and recoil. An academy recruit training class fired the normal 60-round Police Pistol Course with both .38 Special Wadcutter ammunition and .357 Magnum ammunition, repeating six trips over the course, alternating with each type of ammunition, or twelve PPC courses being fired in all. The average score using .38 Special lead semi-wadcutter ammunition was 243 out of a possible 300 points. The average score firing .357 Magnum was 235. NYSP concluded that there was no significant loss in effectiveness or efficiency with the .357 Magnum compared to .38 Special, when considering the trainee skill level of the academy test group firing the S&W Model 28 revolver, which upon completion of testing proved more durable than the lighter K-frame Model 19, it then being approved for issue by the NY State Troopers.

"As a rural police agency, NYSP responds to a significant number of complaints which involve dangerous animals…” from 1972 to 1974, incidents involving the destruction of animals, show increased effectiveness of the .357 Magnum compared to the .38 Special, when circumstances indicated that the handgun vs. the 12-ga.shotgun should be used. While the most cases usually involved wild game such as black bear, vehicle wounded deer, rabid raccoon, etc., many cases involved destruction of domestic livestock, such as horses, cows, sheep, etc. Of animals destroyed by handgun fire, it took an average of 2.5 rounds of .38 Special ammunition to kill each animal compared to 1.7 rounds for the .357, based on 340 incidents, 159 where the .38 Special was used and 181, using the .357 Magnum.”

Some hand loaders still cautiously hand load heavy .38 Special loads in the manner defined by Keith’s experiments of the late 1920s and early 1930s. My experience in doing so suggests that many loads published in vintage gun books and magazines are excessive and unsafe, exceeding modern .38 Special +P standards.

By careful reading of the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th Edition (2010) on pages 256-259 I determined to my own satisfaction that .38 Special +P and a selected few “starting” .357 Magnum loads could be safely adapted, using common cast bullets, at a normal overall cartridge length usable in the .38 Special.

Bullet substitutions and slightly reduced charges I have determined suitable in my revolvers are listed in Table 1. When assembled in .38 Special brass at the same OAL or longer, as stated in the Lyman listing, I have found them are safe in .357-chambered guns and sturdy .38 Special revolvers such as the Colt Official Police, S&W Heavy Duty and Ruger “Six” series.

Table 1 - Ed Harris’s .38-44 loads and the RCBS Little Dandy Rotors Used to Dispense Them
Derived from Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th Edition, pgs. 256-259. [Universal Receiver with 4” vented SAAMI test barrel]

#358477, 150 grains, Linotype, minimum OAL 1.51” – substituting Accurate 36-150L at same OAL
11.0 grs. #2400 (.357 “start” load) 998 fps, 17,900 cup – p. 258 I use RCBS LD rotor #13 for 10.2 grs.
#358156, 155 grains, #2 alloy, minimum OAL 1.46”- substituting Accurate 36-155D @ 1.53” OAL.
4.4 grains Bullseye (.38 Spl +P load) 915 fps, 18,100 cup – p. 256 – My RCBS LD rotor #8 meters this.
8.8 grains #2400 (.38 Spl. +P load) 953 fps, 17,300 cup – p. 256 – RCBS LD #11 meters 8.4 grs.

#358311, 160 grains, Linotype, minimum OAL 1.55” - substituting Accurate 36-159H at same OAL
4.1 grains Bullseye (.38 Spl. +P) 936 fps, 18,300 cup – p. 256 – RCBS LD rotor #7 for 4.0 grs.
11.4 grs. #2400 (.357 “start” load) 1024 fps, 20,200 cup - p. 259 – I use RCBS LD rotor #14 meters 11 grs.
11.8 grains IMR4227 (.357 “start” load) 977 fps, 19,600 cup – p. 259 –RCBS LD rotor #15 meters 11.5 grs.

#358429, 170 grains, Linotype, minimum OAL 1.55” – substituting Accurate 36-168H @ 1.55” OAL
9.9 grains #2400 (.357 “start” load) 879 fps, 15,900 cup – p.259 – I use RCBS LD #12 meters 9.3 grs.
9.8 grains IMR4227 (.357 “start” load) 835 fps, 14,100 cup – p.259 – My RCBS LD rotor #13 meters this.

Table 2 - Ed Harris’s .357 Magnum loads and RCBS Little Dandy Rotors Used To Dispense Them
Derived from Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th Edition, pgs. 258-259. [Universal Receiver with 4” vented SAAMI test barrel]

#358477, 150 grains, Linotype, minimum OAL 1.51” substituting Accurate 36-150L at same OAL
15.0 #2400 (max. listed .357 load) 1362 fps, 41,400 cup. – p. 258 I use RCBS LD rotor #18 for 14.6 grs.
16.0 IMR4227 (max. listed .357 load) 1333 fps, 40,200 cup. – p. 258 I use RCBS LD rotor #19 for 15 grs.

#358156, 155 grains, Linotype, minimum OAL 1.59”substituting Accurate 36-155K at same OAL
14.0 #2400 (max. listed .357 load) 1299 fps, 41,900 cup. – p.258 – RCBS LD rotor #17 meters 13.5 grs.
15.2 IMR4227 (max. listed .357 load) 1254 fps, 41,300 cup. – p.258 – RCBS LD rotor #19 meters 15.1 grs.

#358429, 170 grains, Linotype, minimum OAL 1.55”substituting Accurate 36-168H at same OAL
13.5 grs. #2400 (max. listed .357 load) 1242 fps, 41,100 cup. – p. 259 – RCBS LD#16 meters 12.8 grs.
14.5 grs. IMR4227 (max. listed .357 load) 1233 fps, 40,800 cup. – p. 259 – RCBS LD#18 meters 14.3 grs.

Saeco #354, 180 grains, Linotype, minimum OAL 1.59” substituting 36-185F at same OAL
12.3 grs. #2400 (max. .357 load) 1163 fps, 42,000 cup – p.259 – RCBS LD#15 meters 11.9 grs.
14.2 grs. IMR4227 (max. .357 load) 1171 fps, 42,500 cup. – p. 259 – My RCBS LD#18 meters this.

Table 3 - Factory .38 Special +P and .357 Mag. Velocities and .38 Special (.38-44) Handloads

.357 Factory Loads Reference:______S&W Model 28 4” ”____Colt New Service .357 Mag. 5”
.357 Mag. Super-X 158-gr.Lubaloy__1236, 8 Sd (fr.S&W Mod. 28)__1307 fps, 36 Sd__1950s
.357 Mag. Rem-UMC 158-gr. SWC__1221 fps, 23 Sd(S&W Mod28)_1287 fps, 27 Sd___1950s

.38 Special Factory Loads Reference: S&W .38-44 HD 4”____Colt New Service .357 Mag. 5”

Super-X 158-grain Metal Penetrating__939 fps, 9 Sd____________1009 fps, 13 Sd___1950s
Old Super-X 158-grain LRN .38-44_____994 fps, 23 Sd___________1024 fps, 11 Sd__Large Primer 1930s
Winchester X38SPD 158-gr. LHP+P____909 fps, 16 Sd____________936 fps, 16 Sd___1990s

“.38-44” Handloads in .38 Special brass, W-W cases, WSP primer:

Saeco #348 146DEWC 8.9 grs.#2400___922 fps,12 Sd___________1005fps, 34 Sd
Acc. 36-175H 4.0 grs. Bullseye+P______871 fps, 5 Sd_____________902 fps, 14 Sd
Acc. 36-175H 5.5 grs. AutoComp+P____902 fps, 14 Sd____________947 fps, 11 Sd
Acc. 36-175H 11.5 IMR4227+P________914 fps, 22 Sd____________981 fps, 18 Sd
Acc. 36-190T 8.4 #2400+P___________888 fps, 21 Sd_____________926 fps, 37 Sd

Tim357

07-01-2020, 10:12 PM

Outpost75, that's a great contribution to the thread. Thank you! I really enjoy this thread and others like it.
Tim

Petrol & Powder

07-02-2020, 08:05 AM

Thank You Outpost75

I have great respect for the 38 Special and DA revolvers chambered for it.
The 38 Special has been studied and refined over its long life. What started as a very good cartridge was developed into an outstanding cartridge. It is one of the most versatile cartridges you will ever find.

Some of the hard earned knowledge concerning ammunition selection and revolver tactics is being lost to younger generations but I don't believe it will ever be completely lost.

johniv

07-02-2020, 11:13 AM

Thanks, Outpost. Good info

Bantou

07-02-2020, 04:46 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd3v_fssabI
Interesting info on calibers, .44 included.
This may have been posted here before, but worth a listen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yd3v_fssabI
Interesting info on calibers, .44 included.
This may have been posted here before, but worth a listen.

Interesting and very informative. I never would have believed that the human body could take that kind of abuse to CoM and keep going if it hadn’t come from a first hand witness.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Jtarm

07-21-2020, 08:13 PM

issuing to new agent classes heavy barrel 3" or 4" S&W round butt Model 10s, (usually 10-6 or 10-8s) with Tyler T-grip adapter.

I take it Tyler’s order fulfillment was a hair faster in those days.

Outpost75

07-21-2020, 08:51 PM

I take it Tyler’s order fulfillment was a hair faster in those days.

Correct. The government got his entire production.

Cosmic_Charlie

07-25-2020, 11:22 AM

265245
Got this little beauty coming next week. 1956 vintage. Looking forward to trying some powder coated softer alloy boolits.

Wayne Dobbs

07-25-2020, 01:28 PM

265245
Got this little beauty coming next week. 1956 vintage. Looking forward to trying some powder coated softer alloy boolits.

Great find! I love the Combat Masterpiece!

ddixie884

07-25-2020, 11:54 PM

I wish Tyler would sell their mom and pop operation to someone who would put them into regular production and stop the chronic shortage of their product................

Petrol & Powder

07-26-2020, 07:14 PM

I've never had a problem with Tyler products.
Their ordering system is a bit old school but it works.

I doubt there is enough demand for their products to justify scaling up their manufacturing.

Outpost75

07-26-2020, 07:25 PM

I wish Tyler would sell their mom and pop operation to someone who would put them into regular production and stop the chronic shortage of their product................

What people don't understand is that T-grips are not a stock item. Each is made to order. Therefore it takes time, but if you want a T-grip to fit your 1914 Colt New Service .455 Eley or 1920 Police Positive, or 1933 .38 Banker's Special they are the only ballgame in town.

RJM52

07-27-2020, 10:47 AM

"What people don't understand is that T-grips are not a stock item. Each is made to order."...not sure this is current but I was a distributor for Ts back in the late 1990s to mid 2000s when Mr. Tyler's niece and her husband owned the company. The Ts are made in batches, not to order. Batches in that a lot of Ns are made, then Ks, then Js so depending where on the cycle your order comes in will determine the wait time...

People worry about ordering one T, paying for it up front then having to wait a few weeks to a few months to get it... Try pre-paying for 100-125 and having to wait 3-8 months for the whole order to come in...

If the current owner was smart he would just dump batches as he completes them on ebay or GunBroker. That way there is no waiting complaints and the Ts would sell well above his retail... I just found a few leftover ones a few months ago and they all sold for the $50-70 range...

Bob

Outpost75

07-27-2020, 11:30 AM

"What people don't understand is that T-grips are not a stock item. Each is made to order."...not sure this is current but I was a distributor for Ts back in the late 1990s to mid 2000s when Mr. Tyler's niece and her husband owned the company. The Ts are made in batches, not to order. Batches in that a lot of Ns are made, then Ks, then Js so depending where on the cycle your order comes in will determine the wait time...

People worry about ordering one T, paying for it up front then having to wait a few weeks to a few months to get it... Try pre-paying for 100-125 and having to wait 3-8 months for the whole order to come in...Bob

That probably remains the case for the K-l and N- most common sizes. For Colts other than the most common size for the OP and Python, when they will make them for the older frames such as the New Service, it is to the specific order.

LIMPINGJ

07-27-2020, 03:23 PM

Ben patiently waiting for one to fit my Service Six since before the Chicom virus craze.

RJM52

07-29-2020, 10:25 PM

Looking through my old reloading manuals the other day I found a LYMAN mid-1950s vintage but the cover is missing so I can't tell you what # it is... Since it lists the .44 Magnum as a "new" cartridge with the note "send for free factory bulletin" it must be around 1955/6.

For ".38 Spec. High Vel." loads to be used in "Heavy Frame Guns Only" they have the following listed:

148 grain cast Hollow Base #358395
UNIQUE 7.7/1285
2400 13.5/1380

150 grain Thompson GC HP #358156
UNIQUE 6.4/1154
2400 13.5/1227

155 grain Keith HP #358439
2400 12.0/1230

158 grain Thompson Cast Plain Base #358156
2400 11.8/1210

If one has a LoadData.com account and types in 38-44 two listing come up, one test is a Colt SAA and the other S&W OUTDOORSMAN.

There are 66 loads with most of the modern powders with jacketed and cast bullets weighing from 110 to 180 grains. The cast bullets from 150 to 180 grains all have top end velocities in the 1200s just like the LYMAN manual does.

With all do respect to Mr. Harris...
"Some hand loaders still cautiously hand load heavy .38 Special loads in the manner defined by Keith’s experiments of the late 1920s and early 1930s. My experience in doing so suggests that many loads published in vintage gun books and magazines are excessive and unsafe, exceeding modern .38 Special +P standards."
....that was the whole point of the .38-44. One doesn't use these loads in a .38 Special even if rated for +P. They all have the disclaimer ...
"Warning! Notes: THE FOLLOWING LOADS EXCEED SAAMI PRESSURE LIMITS FOR THE .38 SPECIAL. They should ONLY be used in .38 Special revolvers with a ".44" or ".45" frame such as the Colt SAA, New Service, Smith & Wesson N-Frame "Heavy Duty" and "Outdoorsman" revolvers. Pressures approach those common with the .357 Magnum and should only be used in the above revolvers that are in good condition. Use with caution. A Smith & Wesson .38-44 Outdoorsman with a 6 1/2-inch barrel was used to test loads. Starline cases used throughout. Temperature during testing was 46 degrees Fahrenheit. (Handloader Issue #243 - October, 2006)"

Another observation...if poor little S&W J-frame snubbies, not the Magnum but original, can barely handle .38 Special +P, why did S&W make the 940 in 9mm which is running almost twice the pressure of the .38 Special... And I have a TK Custom cylinder for my 649-1 that is cut to take .38 Super...at 30-35K psi...zero issues...smooth ejection, round primers...

Bob

35remington

07-29-2020, 10:34 PM

35remington

07-29-2020, 10:53 PM

Smith did not rate the J frame 38s for Plus P until some years after their introduction. Harder steel is why, and they were rated for it after the change was made. Wholesale use of 38 Plus P in aluminum J framed guns that have Plus P stamped on the barrel to indicate their suitability for its use is still best avoided.

Petrol & Powder

07-30-2020, 08:33 AM

I think some folks look at that little J-frame and assume it is weak because it is small. They are not weak.
I'm not in favor of abusing any gun and a steady diet of +P loads in an aluminum J-frame is not a good idea.
However, as pointed out, the quality of the steel used in those little J-frames has improved over the years. In addition to the materials used, the design is quite strong.
Look at the locking notches on the cylinder, they are offset and not located over the thin portion of the chamber wall. Look at the barrel shank where it protrudes through the frame, it is completely supported and very little of it protrudes through the frame. Those little J-frames are stout guns.

Thunder Stick

07-30-2020, 10:35 AM

Facinating thread. I found myself wondering that if the USA had the FBI load during the Phillipines Insurrection of 1899-1902, if the 1911 in 45ACP would have been needed.

Outpost75

07-30-2020, 12:08 PM

Facinating thread. I found myself wondering that if the USA had the FBI load during the Phillipines Insurrection of 1899-1902, if the 1911 in 45ACP would have been needed.

Had they simply loaded the .38 Long Colt with a 148-grain full wadcutter similar to today's target wadcutters in .38 Special, at similar velocity, they would have had a reasonably effective load. For use in the small and light-alloy frame snubbies the wadcutter is an excellent choice.

http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2014/01/federal-gold-medal-match-38-special.html

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/wadcutter-ammo-self-defense/

https://revolverguy.com/wadcutters-for-self-defense/

.38 Special Velocity Tests, November 19, 2019, 50 degs. F.

Firearm:______________S&W Mod37_____S&W Mod12____S&W .38-44HD Remarks:
Barrel length___________ 1-7/8"____________2"____________4"
Cyl. Gap_______________ 0.008__________0.006_________0.006

Ammunition:
Ball M41 130FMJ RA66____732 fps, 23 Sd___742 fps, 30 sd__832 fps, 31 Sd_VN-era military for Airweight revolver
Ball M41 130FMJ WCC68__721 fps, 20 Sd___766 fps, 32 Sd__779 fps, 28 Sd_VN-era military for Airweight revolver
Win. 130FN"Service Grade" 739 fps, 22 Sd___771 fps, 5 Sd__846 fps, 11 Sd_Current production "range" ammo
Avg. of 130-gr. FMJ ammos__731 fps_______760 fps_______819 fps

Speer 135GDHP 4.1B'eye__710 fps, 19 Sd_____772 fps, 18 Sd__808 fps, 20 Sd_Non+PNeeds>750 fps to expand
WRA 148 HBWC_________638 fps, 14 Sd_____687 fps, 9 Sd___694 fps, 20 Sd_VN-era training ammo, standard wadcutter
R-P 148 HBWC 3.2 B'eye__ 770 fps, 9 Sd_____797 fps, 17 Sd___845 fps, 11 Sd_"Full Charge" wadcutter handload.

Rem-UMC 158"Pol.Service"_697 fps, 14 Sd____733 fps, 11 Sd___787 fps, 23 Sd_WW2-era "Police Service"
WRA 158 LRN "Lubaloy"___699 fps, 19 Sd_____720 fps, 14 Sd___756 fps, 7 Sd__WW2-era "Police Service"
WRA "cut-off"_ FN"_______729 fps, 19 Sd_____757 fps, 12 Sd___791 fps, 19 Sd_Nose cut to 1.4"OAL .25" meplat
RWS 158 FMJFN__________659 fps, 33 Sd____694 fps, 20 Sd___681 fps, 10 Sd_Current production "range" ammo
Avg. of 158-grain ammos___696 fps_______726 fps________754 fps

Charge establishment with Magtech 158-grain LRN to approximate "old school" factory lead service
4 grs Bullseye, OAL 1.50"___717 fps, 6 Sd_____752 fps, 19 Sd__782 fps, 11 Sd_RCBS Little Dandy Measure rotor #7
3.7 grs 452AA, OAL 1.50"___702 fps, 13 Sd____719 fps, 10 Sd__742 fps, 20 Sd_RCBS Little Dandy Measure rotor #7

265474265475

.38 Special Velocity Tests 14 July 2020 Colt Official Police 3" barrel, 0.005" cylinder gap

1944 Rem-UMC 158-grain LRN Police Service____________ 772 fps, 19 Sd No expansion, tumbling on exit of 4th gallon H20 jug
Saeco #348 146-grain DEWC handload 3.5 grains Bullseye_824 fps, 17 Sd No expansion, exited 4th gallon H20 jug
Speer 135-gr. GDHP, Win FP case 5.0 grs Bullseye_______915 fps, 12 Sd_Exp. 0.60” stopped in 4th gallon H20 jug
Winch. 158-gr. JHP, Win FP case 4.8 grs Bullseye________862 fps, 14 Sd_Exp. 0.42” stopped in 5th gallon H20 jug

WCC86 110-grain US Treasury +P+ Q4070______1046 fps, 21 Sd_Exp. 0.65” stopped in 3rd gallon H20 jug
Winchester 110-grain +P X38S6PH_____________969 fps, 30 Sd_Exp. 0.60” stopped in 4th gallon H20 jug
Winch. 110-grain JHP, Win FP case 5.0 Bullseye___994 fps, 12 Sd

tazman

07-30-2020, 02:28 PM

Lucky gunner has ballistic gel tests for 38special using some of the ammo mentioned and much more. 38 special is still a very viable cartridge for defensive use.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/#38spl

Piedmont

07-30-2020, 09:16 PM

Facinating thread. I found myself wondering that if the USA had the FBI load during the Phillipines Insurrection of 1899-1902, if the 1911 in 45ACP would have been needed.
Of course the USA was using the .38 Long Colt and that only gave a reported 750 fps. with a 150 grain. So even if they had the later swaged hollowpoint 158 grain .38 Special projectile to load, the velocity probably wouldn't have met the expansion threshold, so it would have worked as a plain old SWC at maybe 730-740 fps.

Outpost75

07-30-2020, 09:27 PM

Of course the USA was using the .38 Long Colt and that only gave a reported 750 fps. with a 150 grain. So even if they had the later swaged hollowpoint 158 grain .38 Special projectile to load, the velocity probably wouldn't have met the expansion threshold, so it would have worked as a plain old SWC at maybe 730-740 fps.

Not a bad guess. Here are chronograph results for .38 Long Colt, .38 Special wadcutter and 150-grain heeled flatnosed:

265497265498265499

pettypace

07-31-2020, 07:35 AM

This chart is from MacPherson's book Bullet Penetration and might help to put the wound mass data from the graphs above into perspective:

265514

Generally speaking, the numbers represent a rough estimate of the grams of crushed tissue in the permanent wound cavity created by various projectiles. But, as part of his Wound Trauma Incapacitation (WTI) model, MacPherson ignored penetration beyond 18" (because it would likely be outside the target). He also ignored the final three inches of penetration 18" or less (figuring that the low bullet velocity near the end of penetration would limit the tissue damage). That all makes sense to me. But, for better or worse, the chart also includes a somewhat arbitrary penalty factor which MacPherson imposed on under-penetrating hollow point bullets in order to discourage over-expanding hollow point designs. That doesn't make much sense to me, but does explain the low numbers given for 10" and 12" JHP projectiles.

Just how wound mass might relate to "stopping power" or "combat effectiveness" is subject to debate. But, for whatever it's worth, it's clear that MacPherson figured a .38 wadcutter to produce 50% more wound mass than a .38 round nose bullet and just about the same wound mass as .45 ACP hardball.

RJM52

08-01-2020, 03:52 PM

The recent J frames are of harder steels than the old ones in 38 and are chambered in 357 so 9mm is also suitable.

Also note that Smith does not sell an aluminum J frame in 9mm or 357. Only steel or scandium. There is a reason why. An aluminum J frame in 9mm or 357 would have a very short service life expectancy.

Not talking about the standard "Airweight" aluminum frame Js...(also Smith "scandium" framed guns are aluminum/scandium alloy, mostly aluminum) or the newer J-Magnum guns. My 649 is a early 90s vintage gun that I'm not even sure is +P rated. The original 940 started being made in 1991 several years before the J-Magnum.

I also used to shoot Winchester 125 ST .38 Super ammo from a Model 36 made back in the 1970s...

Bob

35remington

08-01-2020, 05:27 PM

It is reasonable to presume that Smith made their revolvers from harder steels and rated them for Plus P as a concurrent event that was more than a coincidence. If softer steel was fully adequate there would have been no reason for the change.

Outpost75

08-01-2020, 07:35 PM

... The original 940 started being made in 1991 several years before the J-Magnum.
I also used to shoot Winchester 125 ST .38 Super ammo from a Model 36 made back in the 1970s... Bob

I own two S&W 940s. The first one went 1500 rounds of standard-pressure 9mm before developing more than 0.002" of end-shake. The crane arbor was stretched, the gun tightened up and in another 1500 rounds it needed to be tightened again, by that time the barrel-cylinder gap having opened from 0.005" to 0.008 pass/0.009 hold. The second revolver is not used for practice, but only for carry, and so far has 1000 rounds of standard-pressure 147-grain JHPs through it with no issues. The first gun is still in service as a practice gun, but demonstrates about 100 fps velocity loss compared to the second one which is still tight. S&W doesn't service this model anymore, so next time it gets loose I'll have my gunsmith fit a new barrel and re-set the gap.

Good Cheer

08-01-2020, 09:06 PM

You fellas have reminded me to get that Lyman #410426 a great big hollow point, so big that from the side it looks like a WFN.

Petrol & Powder

08-07-2020, 12:53 PM

Outpost75

08-07-2020, 03:08 PM

It's just a pipe dream but I always thought that it would be cool if S&W could make a small DAO revolver based on the 9mm cartridge instead of based on a 38 Special J-frame chambered for the 9mm Luger.
If you made the cylinder 3/8" shorter and made the "window" in the frame a bit shorter; the frame could be made little heavier without making the entire gun heavier than a 38 Special J-frame.

By taking advantage of the shorter 9mm Luger cartridge, you could make a stronger gun that wasn't heavier.

We experimented with that at Ruger, but having the standard-length cylinder works better due to the increased expansion ratio, which increases velocity, and with most 9mm loads pressure has peaked before the bullet leaves the cylinder, which mitigates the potential for flame cutting and forcing cone erosion. Did make a few lightweight 9mm SP101s with Titanium frames and 3-inch barrels, but they were to expensive to make as 1987 retail cost would have been over $1000. Several hundred all went to a government customer in sterile packaging with no markings other than serial number and caliber.

I've heard of one which turned up at a consulate in A-stan.

Petrol & Powder

08-07-2020, 06:21 PM

Outpost75

08-07-2020, 10:23 PM

Prior to the fall of the Iron Curtain, titanium was rather expensive.

After the Soviet Union fell, the material became a bit more common. When the material became more prevalent, the knowledge concerning how to machine it also increased.

All true, and they could do it now if they really wanted to, but what Bill Ruger told me was, "your job is to sell what's in the catalog, NOT to think up new models. The only exception to this rule is a MILLION dollar order."

tazman

08-07-2020, 11:09 PM

Prior to the fall of the Iron Curtain, titanium was rather expensive.

After the Soviet Union fell, the material became a bit more common. When the material became more prevalent, the knowledge concerning how to machine it also increased.

I have a S&W 929 that has a titanium cylinder. Given that, they DO know how to make well machined gun parts out of the stuff.
That 929 is a bit pricey though. I expect a titanium framed revolver would be equally as expensive, at least.

On a kind of connected note, a hammer manufacturer I worked for was beginning to make titanium hammers at the time I was getting ready to retire. Very expensive but, man would they drive nails.

Petrol & Powder

08-08-2020, 09:23 AM

Titanium has some very unique properties. The knowledge concerning how to work with it has certainly improved since it became more available in the western world.

In the right applications, titanium can be a solution to a problem. However, it holds some demons too.

During the cold war, the U.S.A. had limited access to titanium and what we could get our hands on went almost exclusively to the military.

Titanium became a bit of a novelty in the 1990's but even when it was more readily available, steel remained far less expensive.