H110 and the 38 Special Why and Why Not

[KCSO]

I have long used a stout load of 2400 for a heavy load for my 38 HD and the matching carbine and have been inconvienced lately by a shortage of 2400. By the same token I have on hand 8 pounds of H110 so I got to thinking...

H110 is listed in very few manuals as a powder for the 38 special and I wondered why so I started load development. I measured case head expansion and watched the primers and worked up to a load of 11.8 grains of H110 in a federal 38 case pushing a 158 gr rnfp from the Lee mould.

The load is safe but very disappointing for velocity and in addition there is a LOT of muzzle flash in a 4" revolver, way more than 2400 even. In addition over fresh snow I could see that there was a lot of unburned powder even with the CCI Magnum primers. Even my Dad's 8 3/8 M27 showed lower velocity than 2400.

However the same load in the 20" carbine barrel picked up about 350 fps in speed and was accurate to boot. Having a large quantity of 38 cases I thought about making dedicated carbine loads and worked up to 12.2 grains with the bullet seated 1/10 of an inch out from the crimping groove to give the same OAL as a 357 round. There is good news and bad news here... It works as a load but is a failure from the safety standpoint. My son in law needed some 38's for his snubby and I caught him squeezing the bullets in the carbine loads into the case in my vice. His explanation was they didn't fit. The box was marked Carbine only but this is apparently not sufficient warning for idiots.

Bottom line is that from now on no matter how desperate I will stick to 357 cases for H110.

I tried!!!!

[fredj338]

One reason I have moved off H110/W296 in my 4" magnums, any caliber. 2400 does a better job, sim vel with less blast & flash.

[44man]

Contrary to claims, you need barrel length to burn slow powders. Too many EXPERTS claim powder is all burned in an inch or so. Why do you need 26" or more in a .300 Weatherby? Why not 4" to burn 88 gr of 4831?
H110 or 296 will work in a .38 but not in 4" or less.
Powder burns to add to velocity and does not POP all at once.

[W.R.Buchanan]

H110 also needs pressure in order to fully combust. The only way it can get that pressure is to either be loaded heavy or have a long barrel.

The thing about H110 is it is designed for heavy loads, and it works well for those. I personally can't stand to shoot a zillion Heavy .44 magnum loads so I use other powders for most of my shooting.

I also have an 8lb jug of H110 I want to use up some day, and my solution was to buy a $2000 Browning O/U Shotgun in .410 and shoot the hell out of it. I still have lots left.

Randy

[vzerone]

There's always been bad press from shooters on using 2400 in short barrels the major claim being that there is lots of unburned powder left. Truth be known 2400 leaves more then average unburned powder even in long barrels and 2400 really performs very well in short barrels considering how slow a powder it is.

H110 and W296 when they first came out were really specialized powders. By that I mean full case charge with heavy bullet. You think magnum handgun cartridges here. Well you know us shooters we have to tinker with things and make use of them for things that they weren't intended for.

There are better suited powders for the 38 Special.

[Golfswithwolves]

Sounds like you must lock your son-in-law away from sharp objects and other things he could hurt himself with.

[Scharfschuetze]

I also have an 8lb jug of H110 I want to use up some day, and my solution was to buy a $2000 Browning O/U Shotgun in .410 and shoot the hell out of it. I still have lots left.

Well, I'm with you in using it in the 410 gauge. It works a treat in that application. I also use it in the M1 Carbine and 357 rifle (with 180 gr boolits) with good results.

[rintinglen]

To further elaborate on W.R.'s theme, the 38 special, even plus P,has a Maximum Average Pressure of 21,000 CUP, IIRC. Standard velocity 38 Special has a MAP of 18,000 CUP. H110 doesn't begin to burn well until about 30,000 CUP. Incomplete combustion, erratic and low velocities are sure to result from striving for low pressure loads.
The 38 Special has worked best for me with powders like Bullseye, WW-231, and Tite group. H-110 need not apply.

[Larry Gibson]

Besides barrel length needed to efficiently burn slower burning powders in revolvers you also need pressure, especially with H110. Staying within even +P pressures in the 38 SPL H110 won't burn efficiently regardless of the barrel length. Now in the 357 it is another story because you can get it up to 30+K psi where it will burn efficiently....same in the 30 Carbine. Just a no go in the 38 SPL. Sometimes what we want to do and what we can/should do are two different things.

Larry Gibson

[turtlezx]

i tried 110 in 45 auto with 6gr powder
It sounded like a bottle rocket !! it was still hissing after the boolit got to the target.
Which i could see in flight

other than that it worked well!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jason280]

It works as a load but is a failure from the safety standpoint. My son in law needed some 38's for his snubby and I caught him squeezing the bullets in the carbine loads into the case in my vice. His explanation was they didn't fit. The box was marked Carbine only but this is apparently not sufficient warning for idiots.


This is the exact reason I don't load up hybrid/"specialized" loads...

[Walkingwolf]

I am using W296 for my 38/44 loads in a GP100 4 inch. Using a Bayou Bullets 158gn SWC, 14gn 296 at 1200fps. I have pushed it all the way up to 15gn for 1300fps. The latter load did not show any signs of excessive pressure, but I only use it for woods carry.

W296/H110 does not work well unless there is no space in the case under the bullet, so I did not get consistency until I went over 12gn.

ETA Longshot is closer to 2400 than H110, and so far it has been readily available. I use LS for my +P loads, my 38/44 loads are stout, in a handgun designed for magnum pressure.

From Hodgdon burn rate chart

Longshot #52
2400 #54
H110 #62

[KCSO]

In dads M27 H110 15.2 grains and a 158 jacketed slug will go under and inch at 25 yards and through a deer at a hundred. I kinda knew it wasn't going to work but I had to try it anyway.

As to SIL I put nothing in writing that might be found for the trial!

[MT Gianni]

Did you try a heavy bullet say 173-195 gr? That may have been enough to get you a decent burn.

[fecmech]

In the old Lyman Third Cast handbook they had a .357 start load with 358429 and H110 of 11.8 grs and listed as most accurate, meaning most uniform. Pressure was 18900 cup and oal was 1.553 which was only .016" longer than the .38 spl with 358429. At the time I was a speed freak so I reduced it to 11.3 and loaded them in .38 cases. In my 6" k-38 I got 1064 fps and in my 1 7/8" Model 36 I got 868 fps. I shot maybe a hundred all told, mostly in the K-38 with no problems and the load was accurate. Just something I tried in the past to see if it would work. I don't have the chrono details any more but I do remember them being pretty uniform.

[swmass]

I use 296 for 357 mag (6 inch gp100)... It makes sense in theory to try and down load for a 38 case.. But apparently it doesn't work too well! Someones gotta be the first to try this stuff or no one would know. :lol: Why not just scrounge up some 357 brass for all that powder?

[44man]

Hodgdon made H110 as a handgun powder but all I find about 296 says shotgun powder limited to .410. Why, I don't know unless WW wanted it just for the .410.
Both are the same powders but a slight different burn rate from the batch made.
Now H110 and 296 in the .410 only uses an average of 7,000 LUP for a higher velocity which is LESS pressure then 2400.
But shotguns are not revolvers either.
Shooting big bores I found 6" works fine for 296 but I still like 7-1/2" or more for hunting so it does not affect me at all.
You do not want much air space, need case tension and a fair heavy boolit like a 240 and up in a .44. 296 works great in a .357 but I still believe you need a little barrel length. I never shot it in the .38. Seems back then I used BE and Unique in the .38. Then a few other shotgun powders. RD and Alcan powders.
I had all shotgun powders long ago for birds in Ohio but now there are no birds here where I live and very few bunnies. Deep snow killed them off when rain froze on top. Rabbits face more fox and owls then they can produce babies.
I still have a ton of shotgun loading stuff but deer are my hunting now. I even have bags of Herter's wads left. I gave up the .38 and .357 and stay with the .44 and up. I am not on the up and up with the small guns anymore but barrel length must be considered, never liked short stuff, need no carry stuff.
I have a hard time saying what pressures you need to burn 296/H110 since it works at 7,000 LUP. But nobody shoots a 4" shotgun either. Don't know what the little Derringer does. I don't want a 10' gun!
Will H110 work in a .38, Don't know but a huge fire ball means you are wasting money, buy a bigger gun for H110.
I see guys want a 2" to 4" in a .454 or .500 and have to wonder about that. Beats heck out of them so they want Unique loads anyway!