is this leading or lube?

[gusbratz]

trying to get the best from a .35 rem. started out at 36 grains and am now down to 29 grains trying to eliminate this. imr3031 29 gr 1650-1750 fps ww alloy lee 35 rem bullet with aluminum gas check bac lube. seeing unburned powder in barrel and streaks of grey at muzzel end along rifling. is this leading? still not quite sure what to look for. thanks.
http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc437/gusbratz/Interesting%20stuff/barrel%20003_zpsqbhstfut.jpg (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/gusbratz/media/Interesting%20stuff/barrel%20003_zpsqbhstfut.jpg.html)
http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc437/gusbratz/Interesting%20stuff/barrel%20006_zpsuc1jbeng.jpg (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/gusbratz/media/Interesting%20stuff/barrel%20006_zpsuc1jbeng.jpg.html)

[montanamike]

I have a couple guns that get this. It doesn't seem to affect accuracy and it doesn't build up at all. I think it's pretty common. Take it out and shoot it. Keep an eye out for lead buildup. You will know when it does (it actually builds up and is rough). If it doesnt, you're good to go.

[tinhorn97062]

That looks like a little lead smearing to me. Could be that your lube is running out before the boolit gets out of the barrel. I see light streaking like this also and have decided to ignore it. It doesn't ever build up and my accuracy seems to not be affected.

I use 3031 almost exclusively in my .45-70 and seeing a little unburned powder kernals is typical for me.

[dondiego]

Looks like antimony wash. Won't hurt anything if it is indeed that.

[RobS]

Looks like antimony wash. Won't hurt anything if it is indeed that.

Correct. If one doesn't want to have antimony wash then either reduce the antimony by adding more lead or what many do just add a 1-2% tin to your alloy. Personally I don't worry about it unless accuracy starts to suffer.

[gusbratz]

hmm, antimony wash. new to me. thanks.

[John Boy]

is this leading?Run a lubed patch down the bore twice. If the patch is gray on both patches = lead

[runfiverun]

it looks like antimonial wash.

take a dental pick and drag it through the streak if it just glides through it's antimony.
if it grabs and digs in it's lead.

what's happening is your just past the relax point of the boolit.
the powders gas volume drops off and the boolit ain't being shoved on any more so it relaxes a little and loses it's seal just a touch.
a lot of the time you'll see a lube smear right before this wash happens.
your not running out of lube it just quit flowing [leaving the little smear] and the relaxation of the boolit happened right afterwards.

you can add a little more oil to your lube to help stop the lube smear and help it keep flowing longer.
and more powder or a filler can change the pressure just enough to help it burn more efficiently.

[vzerone]

......or you could add a little tuff of Dacron to your load. It will raise the pressure ever so slightly. Just telling you.

[geargnasher]

I'm just going to be an echo here...

"Running out of lube" is a famous urban myth.

Antimony wash isn't leading, and neither the wash nor powder mummies in the barrel are typically anything to worry about as long as the wash doesn't start really sticking in one place and accumulate crusty lead deposits.

The "Relax Point" of pressure/barrel/bullet and how that relates to lube/alloy composition and pressure curve as Run described is a really good thing to mull over and over in your head when building rifle loads.

Gear

[gusbratz]

it looks like antimonial wash.

take a dental pick and drag it through the streak if it just glides through it's antimony.
if it grabs and digs in it's lead.

what's happening is your just past the relax point of the boolit.
the powders gas volume drops off and the boolit ain't being shoved on any more so it relaxes a little and loses it's seal just a touch.
a lot of the time you'll see a lube smear right before this wash happens.
your not running out of lube it just quit flowing [leaving the little smear] and the relaxation of the boolit happened right afterwards.

you can add a little more oil to your lube to help stop the lube smear and help it keep flowing longer.
and more powder or a filler can change the pressure just enough to help it burn more efficiently.

just learning here not trying to be contrary or argue. If there is a lube star wouldn't I be getting lube all the way to the end of the barrel? also I was getting this at my first loads of about 35-36 grains of imr 3031 which were around and above 2000fps and had a pretty good kick. relax point is new to me but it seems like I would have been up past it at that speed/pressure. I have been steadily backing down the loads 1/2 grain at a time from 36 all the way down to the 29 where I am now and have been seeing it all along with this powder. as a side note with the same bullets/checks/lube I was not seeing it with imr 4895 so that fits with the running out of pressure idea.

[geargnasher]

When pressure drops off behind the bullet to where it is below the elastic limit of the alloy, the alloy relaxes. Lube tends to be thin right at this point too, and that's the time it needs most to do it's micro-stop-leak thing....but if the gaps are too big it won't, it will instead burp around the bullet, atomize, and sputter around on the crown from the bore-clearing blast of air ahead of the bullet...making a lube star but not doing much good in the bore.

You answered your own question with the 3031 vs 4895, there's some good stuff to consider there.

Gear

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Wow. From runfiverun and geargnasher I learned in just a couple of posts about "antimonial wash" and "relax point". While I have experienced the subject discussion, I never knew exactly what was happening. I love this site.

[runfiverun]

lube stars are funny things.
if you have a wet one [which is what most people look for] it's an indicator of an actual issue. [either with the lube or the boolits static fitment]
if it's dry with some gunk in the barrel you just got carbon fouling and that is actually acting as a lube. [the thing to look for here is fling of the lube]
if it [the star] starts at the rifling edge you have a pretty good seal, if it's intermittent out away from the land and muzzle face you have something else to look for.
either it's beating the boolit to the muzzle or it's being sucked along and is riding in the muzzle blast.
yes low pressure still produces muzzle blast.
your problem could actually be starting at the throat..

[scottfire1957]

You could wipe it witha finger. Greasy, lube feel, lube. Metallic powder feel, lead or antimony.

We honestly can't really tell by looking at a photo. All anybody can do is guess. I have firearms that make that pattern with factory ammo. What does that mean?

It means I clean it and go on.

Each of those lines is inline with a groove. Could be several things. Smoke, powder residue, metal, lube.


Edit: I reread you are trying to "eliminate this." Fine, but why try elimnate something when you have no idea of it's meaning? The streaks might simply mean you have a good crown on your barrel, with a good load.

Remember, powder in the case burns, or "combusts," though rapidly. Products of combustion include carbon, water, oxygen and a host of other products. To me, those streaks indicate you have a good bullet seal in the bore,and products of combustion are being sent out the grooves behind the bullet.

Clean it, go on. Not a problem.

Another edit: You might look up the velocity of burning powder. Seems I remember reading 20 some odd years ago that it's in excess of 6000 fps.

If your gases are going that fast, compared to your bullet, the gases will make those "marks" exiting the grooves as they deflect off the base of the bullet as it exits the bore.

Research. Some is needed.

[vzerone]

I agree with scottfire on it's hard to tell what is going on by the photos and everyone is guessing. Alloy relaxing, lube getting thin, lube not sealing, those are all guesses and they are things that are very very difficult to examine especially the alloy relaxing. How could anyone really prove that? Lube not sealing. If I remember correctly that use to be a big talked about subject on this forum a long time ago. I think it started as as question of what was lube's real purpose: to lube or to seal...or both.

You said you're using WW's for alloy. Air cooled or water quenched? About those aluminum gas checks. They can and do leave your bore looking different then copper ones. In other words they can leave grey aluminum colored coating on the lands especially. I'm not saying that is what was in your picture as the land wasn't coated it's entire length. Your original load was snuffing along pretty good. What weight bullet is it you're shooting? The 35 bore has the ability to decrease pressure rapidly because as the bullet moves down the bore it creates lots more volume area as compared to a smaller caliber such as a 30 or a 6mm. I can't see your bullet being in the elastic state for a 35 Rem with that alloy. Sure wish you had a chronograph and knew what the velocity of the bullet is. I hate saying anything about the lube, but it could be a lube issue too.

[scottfire1957]

I agree with scottfire on it's hard to tell what is going on by the photos and everyone is guessing. Alloy relaxing, lube getting thin, lube not sealing, those are all guesses and they are things that are very very difficult to examine especially the alloy relaxing. How could anyone really prove that? Lube not sealing. If I remember correctly that use to be a big talked about subject on this forum a long time ago. I think it started as as question of what was lube's real purpose: to lube or to seal...or both.

You said you're using WW's for alloy. Air cooled or water quenched? About those aluminum gas checks. They can and do leave your bore looking different then copper ones. In other words they can leave grey aluminum colored coating on the lands especially. I'm not saying that is what was in your picture as the land wasn't coated it's entire length. Your original load was snuffing along pretty good. What weight bullet is it you're shooting? The 35 bore has the ability to decrease pressure rapidly because as the bullet moves down the bore it creates lots more volume area as compared to a smaller caliber such as a 30 or a 6mm. I can't see your bullet being in the elastic state for a 35 Rem with that alloy. Sure wish you had a chronograph and knew what the velocity of the bullet is. I hate saying anything about the lube, but it could be a lube issue too.

Thank you.

The ONLY way to know what those streaks are is to swab them, and send samples to a lab for analysis. ANYTHING else is just a guess. Even my answers.

Edit: Get lab results, get better guesses.

[geargnasher]

You're right, we're just idiots with no clue. Sorry we offended you.

Gear

[scottfire1957]

You're right, we're just idiots with no clue. Sorry we offended you.

Gear

Not one person, at all, said anybody was an idiot. I said you guessed, if you answered anything besides 'I don't know what those streaks on the crown of your firearm are.*"

* Not a direct quote, simply an observation from an aggregation of several responses. Seems there might be a few internet photo analysis professionals on this site that don't list their credentials. I apologize. Are you one?


You guessed, looking at a photo. I guessed also, but I can admit that. Can you really, really, tell me what they are?

Edit: Dang, screwed up again. Quote in the wrong location.


Edit 2: I didn't think so.

[Lloyd Smale]

your expecting quite a bit from a ww bullet pushing it that fast. Try water dropping them. I sure doubt if your getting antimony wash from ww. Ive seen it using straight linotype but never from ww. You also never said what your using for lube. That alone can make a huge difference in leading. I agree that if its not effecting accuracy and doesn't get worse I wouldn't worry about it. If anything shoot a jacketed bullet out of it ever 20 or 30 shots and id bet it would clean it right out.

[Don Fischer]

I've been reading this and I have no clue what that stuff is. I know what I'd do though. See if there's any more, maybe you already did that. Then clean the barrel well and try again. If the stuff wash's out every time I would not lose any sleep over it.

[runfiverun]

antimonial wash is actually a good thing to have in there.

I 'm not sure though cause I have never ever seen it or leading in a barrel I have not shot 3 jillion rounds of lube tests either, nor even handled a rifle in my life............. this place found me and asked me to be it's mall ninja.
I'm pretty good at rolling over counters in the theater and not knocking the popcorn off while I'm under full automatic gun fire from the gangsta's that like to intrude on the fair citizens of gotham city.
off to my cave...be safe out there.

[vzerone]

your expecting quite a bit from a ww bullet pushing it that fast. Try water dropping them. I sure doubt if your getting antimony wash from ww. Ive seen it using straight linotype but never from ww. You also never said what your using for lube. That alone can make a huge difference in leading. I agree that if its not effecting accuracy and doesn't get worse I wouldn't worry about it. If anything shoot a jacketed bullet out of it ever 20 or 30 shots and id bet it would clean it right out.

That's exactly my thinking and I said something to that effect with "the load is snuffing along". It's a max load for even a j-word. Not saying it's dangerous, just that it's a top load in the manuals.

[geargnasher]

As was said, those streaks tend to go away when tin is past a certain percentage. Also, when antimony is below 2% or so and tin is around 1% or less the tendency to get "antimony wash' is reduced. What we call "antimony wash" is actually sintered oxide powder of mostly antimony and a little tin and lead from the surface of the bullet, different color and different deposition pattern than raw alloy dust from gas cutting or abrasion. But of course I haven't ever shot a rifle or tested over 200 lube recipes or a dozen different alloys in five different rifles with a look down the bore after each shot either, nor am I any good at rolling over glass countertops, but I did qualify for this:

http://soldiersystems.net/blog1/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Main_Chairborne_2048x2048.jpg

Gear

[gusbratz]

i didn't want to start an argument. i am new to reloading and am still in the "is this leading" stage. i saw these and then cleaned the S@#T out of my barrel. shot 5 more shots and saw it again, reduced load and shot again, cleaned and reduced load and shot again, all the way from 2000fps down to 1500 fps and was still seeing it so i thought i would ask. i am going to go shoot 20 shots at 1800 fps and see if my accuracy degrades over the course of the shots without cleaning the barrel. thanks for all the replies and i learned a lot and appreciate it.

[btroj]

I hear ya.
I was getting the same stuff a few years back and wondered. If brushed put easily. Mine had a lite grey color to the entire interior of the bore.
I changed alloy a little, less Sb, and it went away.

It is pretty hard to diagnose trouble from just a photo. Do you have trouble passing a snug, dr patch thru the bore? If, after the dry patch, you look thru the bore do you see any globs of lead in the corners of the grooves?

[runfiverun]

Gus it's not an argument I'm just sarcastic and good natured.
my whole life is work and shooting/hunting/fishing.
I live in a small town with one of the best rifle and pistol ranges available to me a mile away, it's covered and nice with very little traffic.
it gets used but not abused and the members actually do the clean up work and replace the target backers out of our own pockets, the local scout troop also works on the place building new plate racks and stuff.
heck the local Monsanto will send down equipment to work on the berms and such when needed, and our city plows the road and a walk-way to the targets every time it snows.
you can't ask for anything better [sept maybe the bath rooms could be heated]
all this for 20 bucks a year, and you don't have to be a member to use the place.

[dragon813gt]

I 'm not sure though cause I have never ever seen it or leading in a barrel I have not shot 3 jillion rounds of lube tests either, nor even handled a rifle in my life............. this place found me and asked me to be it's mall ninja.
I'm pretty good at rolling over counters in the theater and not knocking the popcorn off while I'm under full automatic gun fire from the gangsta's that like to intrude on the fair citizens of gotham city.
off to my cave...be safe out there.

Quoted because it deserves it :laugh:

[vzerone]

I don't believe your streak is antimony wash. What I think is antimony wash is what btroj explained with his bore and that was the whole bore was grey. Now that to me is antimony wash. I think a whole lot of things. Are any of them right? Who knows. I'm thinking you don't have a good enough lube for that alloy, pressure range, and velocity for the 3031 powder you are using. Your testing of lower velocities down to 1500 fps or so and still getting those streaks is mind boggling to say the least. Then when you changed to 4895 powder it went away. Okay....what we need is what is the bullet? What mold in other words. What is your as cast weight. Are you air cooling or water quenching? Now a question I don't believe any of us asked. Until we have that information we'll be playing the guessing game.

Another thing that hasn't been brought up is about the lube. We heard the theories of alloy relaxing, lube being thin, getting by the bullet and being blown out of the barrel. Thing is there is still lube on the bullet and a question arises. What two things are left behind on the bore after you fire a shot? Powder fouling and lube. So lube is laid down for the next bullet from the previous bullet. Like said I don't think you're running out of lube.

Give us that additional information and we'll see what we can find.

[OS OK]

I read in one of Glen Fryxell's articles that you can get gassing up near the muzzle due to the fact the lands sometimes vary in width and if they are any narrower up there the boolit has already been engraved by the widest part of that land and so there it will tend to gass a bit…makes sense.
I like the dragging a dental pick over it to see that reaction first before going too far in any one direction…"just spit wadding at this point though"

[vzerone]

I read in one of Glen Fryxell's articles that you can get gassing up near the muzzle due to the fact the lands sometimes vary in width and if they are any narrower up there the boolit has already been engraved by the widest part of that land and so there it will tend to gass a bit…makes sense.
I like the dragging a dental pick over it to see that reaction first before going too far in any one direction…"just spit wadding at this point though"

Well if there is such a thing as alloy relaxing I guess it would be more the reason for barrel manufacturers to start making tapered bores.

[melloairman]

When you clean the barrel what are you getting on your patches small particles of lead or simply a gray smear ? Can it be removed with a wet patch followed with a dry one with out brushing ? Marvin
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?291640-Another-bore-scope

[runfiverun]

Well if there is such a thing as alloy relaxing I guess it would be more the reason for barrel manufacturers to start making tapered bores.

I would love it if they done this,,,, slightly.
too much would lead to trailing edge failure. and metal displacement that would ruin our day.
the tendency to cram a .003 oversized boolit into a throat already doesn't help, you gotta find the balance between throat fitting and damage to the boolit at the end of that throat.
design is a big help here.

[vzerone]

I would love it if they done this,,,, slightly.
too much would lead to trailing edge failure. and metal displacement that would ruin our day.
the tendency to cram a .003 oversized boolit into a throat already doesn't help, you gotta find the balance between throat fitting and damage to the boolit at the end of that throat.
design is a big help here.

Well we'd be talking a very slight taper and that wouldn't hurt anything at all. More important then that damage you speak of is getting that bullet started straight in the bore. The bullet is always going to be damaged, but we want it damages straight in the bore.

[runfiverun]

yessir..