What's The Scoop On Surplus Cannon Powder

[vzerone]

I'm about ready to dive into the surplus cannon powder as the price is very attractive. I've read some of the threads on the forum and I know some use it straight while others duplex it. I'm particularly kind of set back by some of the things said about it. One member said he wouldn't use surplus cannon powder in his rifle no way no how. Is there something I need to know or that I'm missing before I plunk down my money? I hope he sees this and can tell me what I'm missing before it's too late.

[leadman]

I recall a few years ago there were pictures of this powder floating around and showed some very large kernels. I'll look around and see if I can locate them.

[flounderman]

It depends on what you intend to load with it, if you can use it. Heavy bullets, large case and a small barrel diameter, some of the slow powders will work. I bought 50 lbs of wc860 years ago and I have some calibers it works in but a casefull with a 165 grain bullet in a .300 Winchester magnum wasn't getting the velocity I thought it was. The wc 852 is a powder you can load about anything larger than 223 with. I was told 860 with about 5 grains of red dot worked in 45-70. I have never experimented with duplex loads. If it was all that was available, I would probably experiment but there are better choices available. I don't know what Pat McDonald gets for the 852 anymore, but it works in about everything. Some of the lots are a little faster than 4831. I don't think you will get very good results with the cannon powder, depending on its burn rate and the caliber, but I think you will be better off with a medium burn rate surplus powder.

[vzerone]

I appreciate the replies, but I'm looking for something along the lines that the slow powders can be harmful for your barrels in some way. I'm not talking dangerous such as a blowup. Doggone it I can't remember who it was on the forum that was very adamant about not shooting those powders in his rifles like they were hydrochloric acid or something. I understand about the slowness of it. Maybe he'll chime in if he sees this thread.

[runfiverun]

your probably remembering the 7383 issues.

[vzerone]

No that's not it runfiverun. I think it was someone in the one of the XCB threads. XCB guys chime in please.

[runfiverun]

probably sgt mike.
he'd be the only one that'd know about powder.

[leadman]

The WC872 does leave a hard to remove fouling in the barrel if enough is fired. Bruce Hodgdon used to recommend Bon-Ami scouring powder to remove the fouling. Now we have better solvents and JB Bore Paste to remove this fouling.
This fall before my son and I went elk hunting he was having grouping issues with his Remington 700 in 7mm Rem Mag. He had only been lightly cleaning the bore even though when I gave him the rifle and WC872 powder that the fouling would build up. He loads 80gr of WC872 with a 140gr Ballistic Tip and it normally groups close to moa.

I'm not sure if one wants to load reduced velocities with the current surplus powders if is a cost saving or not. I do like reduced loads but usually use SR4795 or 2400. Takes about twice the amount of slow powder to get the same velocities as with the faster powders mentioned. There is also more recoil with the slow powders since the weight of the powder charge is part of the ejecta.

[jonp]

I appreciate the replies, but I'm looking for something along the lines that the slow powders can be harmful for your barrels in some way. I'm not talking dangerous such as a blowup. Doggone it I can't remember who it was on the forum that was very adamant about not shooting those powders in his rifles like they were hydrochloric acid or something. I understand about the slowness of it. Maybe he'll chime in if he sees this thread.
I'm not seeing anything in my use.

[vzerone]

Thanks for that info runfiverun. sgt.mike come in, over. Are you reading me sgt.mike over? sgt.mike can you please tell us what you know about the slow surplus powders? Or if your prefer you could pm me if you wish to not post it public. I don't want to plunk down money and then have to use the stuff for fertilizer.

[Tracy]

Don't buy it; it's terrible stuff! Stay away!
I'm getting ready to buy 48 lbs of it in a humanitarian effort to rid the world of this scourge!

To anyone who has some, I'm willing to dispose of it as part of my philanthropy. :bigsmyl2:

[NavyVet1959]

If you are desperate enough, you can use it in probably any firearm that is a single shot. I tired a full case of it in a 10mm handgun once. I was sure that it would not blow up, but I wasn't sure it would actually get the bullet out of the barrel. It went bang and the bullet came out the barrel, but it was pretty quiet. Most of the powder probably didn't burn. Of course, it did not eject the brass.

[waksupi]

Don't buy it; it's terrible stuff! Stay away!
I'm getting ready to buy 48 lbs of it in a humanitarian effort to rid the world of this scourge!

To anyone who has some, I'm willing to dispose of it as part of my philanthropy. :bigsmyl2:

You may want to reconsider that. I found it to be so miserable, that I have never bought more than 32 pounds at a time.

[Shiloh]

Many many years ago I saw some greenish gray naval powder for sale. The grains were about the thickness of a pencil or thin blackboard chalk. Lord knows what the people who bought it did with it. Burned it??

SHiloh

[vzerone]

Many many years ago I saw some greenish gray naval powder for sale. The grains were about the thickness of a pencil or thin blackboard chalk. Lord knows what the people who bought it did with it. Burned it??

SHiloh

Now that is scary thinking what they might have used it for. I also wonder how that sort of powder came to be for sale?

[NavyVet1959]

Many many years ago I saw some greenish gray naval powder for sale. The grains were about the thickness of a pencil or thin blackboard chalk. Lord knows what the people who bought it did with it. Burned it??


If it was cheap enough, I would consider running it through a blender at the end of a VERY LONG extension cord. :)

A ball mill would probably be safer though... :)

[Maven]

vzerone, If by cannon powder" do you mean the slow and chunky (extruded) IMR 5010? I used at least 8 lbs. of it in my .30-06 and 8 mm Mau. and had no problems to speak of. However, it did burn inefficiently even with heavy CB's and mag. primers, but that could be improved some with the addition of either spherical shot buffer or powdered bran (as little as 0.3cc via a Lee dipper). As for the acid issue, I never experienced it with 5010 or RVO-62/WC 860 and I burned a lot of the latter.


P.S. Most powder measures cannot throw accurate charges of IMR 510- as the kernels of powder are too large/coarse. The Lee dippers OTOH, worked beautifully and quickly.

[vzerone]

vzerone, If by cannon powder" do you mean the slow and chunky (extruded) IMR 5010? I used at least 8 lbs. of it in my .30-06 and 8 mm Mau. and had no problems to speak of. However, it did burn inefficiently even with heavy CB's and mag. primers, but that could be improved some with the addition of either spherical shot buffer or powdered bran (as little as 0.3cc via a Lee dipper). As for the acid issue, I never experienced it with 5010 or RVO-62/WC 860 and I burned a lot of the latter.


P.S. Most powder measures cannot throw accurate charges of IMR 510- as the kernels of powder are too large/coarse. The Lee dippers OTOH, worked beautifully and quickly.

I will be more specific. I was talking about 860, 867, 870, and 872, but we can throw that 5010 in too. The 5010 is, as you mentioned, a stick powder whereas the others are ball powder. I think after 50 caliber (may be included?) and on up they call them cannons.

Thanks for your information and reply Maven.

[Shiloh]

Now that is scary thinking what they might have used it for. I also wonder how that sort of powder came to be for sale?

Had to have been almost 35 years ago. Who knows.

Shiloh

[Hamish]

You may want to reconsider that. I found it to be so miserable, that I have never bought more than 32 pounds at a time.

Yeah, but that's only because you're not using it in the front stuffers.(wink)

As many have experienced, until you get enough pressure, your going to have unburnt powder EVERYWHERE, and I think it's a little stinky, and it leaves kind of a funky coating behind if you shoot enough of it, but so far, in the mid range cases, I like it very, very much.

The NOE 310440 in .308, HM2 325175 in 8mm, and the NOE 311165 in the 30-06 with WC870, as Jose Himenez would say, Hab been beddy, beddy good to me,,,,,,

As has been mentioned,the price of the WC's vs new production, in some case combinations, are approaching par with each other, but it's been cast magic for a lot of folks on this forum for many years.

EDIT: Do not take the preceding portion of my post to think it won't work in anything else. It will NOT work in .243 with cast, (Maven said so, but I tried it anyway. Yuck) but, I have only done preliminary testing using small volume cases with heavy Boolits, but results so far are very promising. (.30 Badger, .30 Bellm, .300 BO, 7TCU and .357 magnum)

[swheeler]

I would have to guess I've used over a 100 pounds of the various surplus "cannon" powders, starting with H870, then WC860,WC872, T5020 and T5070(I'm sure these are repacked/relabeled 872)and some 5010 but that is a 50 BMG powder. As for erosion all I know is that 101 grs of Retumbo would heat the barrel up faster than 119 grs WC872 with a 180 gr Hornady sitting on top of it, velocities wear similar with the + going to Retumbo. The 870 speed powders all seem to leave a hard fowling in the barrel, especially just in front of the throat, some Ed Red and JB's takes care of it. If shooting something with a somewhat lesser case capacity I doubt it is anything to worry about, I would be more concerned with antimony abrasion if using cast.

[swheeler]

Remember surplus 4831 was a cannon powder.:-) 20mm Oleron

[vzerone]

That is some damn good data swheeler and I appreciate it. That's the kind of things I'm wanting to hear about. I was worried there was some hidden danger such as "it causes corrosion" or "it will heat your barrel up fast and fire crack it". I'm not hearing that so much from you. Do you not agree in general that ball powders, or double based powders, burn hotter? I'm probably going to end up buying some, hard to decide which number. I'm hearing that some of them are virtually identical like 867 and 872. Makes you want to ask then why different numbers?

[swheeler]

What are the numbers, and who's selling them?

[Hamish]

http://surpluspowder.com/index.html

I don't believe anyone is cheaper than Bartlett.

[Maven]

"it will heat your barrel up fast and fire crack it"

Not so, vz. I use no less than 48gr. in both the .30-06 and 8mm Mau. with 175gr. or heavier CB's (and LR Mag. primers) and find the barrels stay cool to warm, unless I fire many shots rapidly. Given that both rifles are bolt actions and I'm shooting for [small] groups, barrel heating and erosion aren't a problem.

[MT Gianni]

I'm hearing that some of them are virtually identical like 867 and 872. Makes you want to ask then why different numbers?
Just because they are identical for our purposes does not mean they were for the military.

[Buckshot]

.............When I first started using surplus powders in the early-mid 90's I believe that both WC860 and WC872 cost about $3.20/lb delivered to your doorstep in 8lb jugs, 4 to the case. I shot with a bunch of guys every Tuesday and we all cast. We obviously all reloaded. We used a LOT of different powders then those 2 as there was a lot more availability then now. I didn't own any magnums then and don't now, so far as rifles go. We had a gas with the stuff. The 2 mentioned powders did yeoman's work for a couple of us in the 6.5 Swede and the 7x57 Mauser. In the Swede 32.0 to 35.0 grains and most any 140gr cast boolit delivered the mail.

Yes it was dirty but it was accurate, worked every time and this wasn't life or death. In addiiton, in my M38 Husky a full caseload under a 140gr Hornady PSP delivered right at 2700 fps and burned as clean as any suitable canister number. In the 7x57 which was a M98/08 Brazilian with a 29" bbl as 175gr Rem Core-Lokt was good for 2400 fps. The was the round's original ballistics and it burned clean and was accurate. One of the group (Ron) had a M38/46 Turk Mauser rebarreled to 35 Whelen. A full case of one or the other (I forget) under the Lyman 358009 @ 280grs delivered about 1850 fps. While it wasn't real clean it was accurate.

Not too long before I'd experimented duplexing the 45-70 with WC872 and H4198. Started with one grain and up to 5.0grs loading 5 rounds of each. With diecetion being the better part of valor (they say) I was using a MAS36 I'd converted to 45-70. IIRC a full caseload delivered BP type ballistics but was filthy to the point of almost not being able to chamber the next round, hense the experiment. All I wanted to accomplish was to clean it up. Turned out that 3.0grs did the deed while upping the velocity a modest bit which was great as I wasn't trying to make a .458 Winchester out of it. My shooting buddies thoughyt I was a nut job by duplexing. In fact they asked if I'd let them know if I had any of them to shoot so they could all go stand behind the rangehouse :-)

It wasn't too long after that that Ron announced that he had some duplexed loads (he used H4198 also) in his Turk-Whelen. When it cleaned up his velocity was running just around 2,000 FPS. Best was that it was clean and his accuracy was still fine. 9.3x62Al duplexed the 45-70 in his Ruger #1, and I think he settled on 5.0grs of 4198 under a caseload of 860 or 872. I also tried duplexing in a 45-90 Sharps, but it didn't work out. I was getting some increased casehead expansion at 5.0 grs of 4198. I'm not a brainiac but I figure the igniter charge got the ball cannon powder lit of, to a degree, but there was still a considerable bit uninvolved that acted as added weight. Whatever the truth was I gave it up on the 45-90.

Back when we had Lee doing the Group buy moulds, I had one done in a single cavity set of blocks for a heavy (236 - 240gr) FNGC design, below:

http://www.fototime.com/982F406A87D7DAC/standard.jpg

It was also designed to fill up the bores of some of those WW2 K-98's. I have a Turk M88/35 (29" bbl) and tried some TCCI 5020 ball as a full caseload. Velocity ran 1800 fps and it was clean and very accurate. I searched TCCI 5020 and came up with this off the old Aimoo board:


I have 4 Turk Mausers (above) and a VZ24/47. The Czech is a nice solid rifle with a strong barrel with .325" grooves but I haven't had much luck with it to date. I've only had it about 4 years and haven't rushed into it! Of my Turks, 3 are really nice shooters and show amazingly consistent barrels. In the above photo the top rifle is a M88/35. A Turked Imperial M88 re-worked in 1935. Below it is a M38 with an Imperial German action. Below that is a Turk M38/46.

All three of these rifles have a .323" groove and a throat that will mark a cast slug sized .324". As a consequence I lube-size that .326" slug in a .325" die and then push it up through a Lee .323" die. Actually ANY 8mm slug I use in them gets that treatment.

Per My Gianni's comment, the deed was done using the M38/46 and the powder was surplus WC 852 (slow) and is similar to 4831, or a shade slower then IMR4350 regardless. For some reason I felt I should be able to push the slug at 2300 fps. I used the M38/46 with it's 24" bbl to try it out. All loads used Grex to fill the case.

Charge ..................Avg Vel ............. ES .............SD
46.0 ......................2003 ................. 38 .............15
47.0 ......................2046 ................. 37 .............15
48.0 ......................2077 ................. 10 ..............4
49.0 ......................2110 ................. 38 .............14
50.0 ......................2129 ................. 37 .............14
51.0 ......................2151 ................. 16 .............6
52.0 ......................2195 ................. 54 .............21
53.0 ......................2222 ................. 19 .............8
54.0 ......................2258 ................. 25 .............11
55.0 ......................2307 ................. 19 .............7

I was REALLY looking forward to these last 5 rounds, as I'd had about all I could handle. The rifle ended up with a split through the wrist from the tang of the action. A combination of somewhat dry wood and a less then steller inletting job. All fixed now. These were all 5 round groups fired at 50 yards, and all up to the 51.0 grain load were very much alike at 1.25" or less and round. The next 2 loads were round but grew in size to just short of 2".

The 54.0gr load was a possible anomoly as it put 5 into a scant inch. The final load had 4 in 1.250" but had a flier for 2". I sure wished I'd bought a ton of this lot of WC852, as it sure was a super useable speed and a nicely predictable mild mannered performer.

The slower surplus powders also did very good work.

In the M38 (29" bbl) with the 236gr Lee Custom:........................................... ..

WC872 ........... 59.0grs (full case), 2031 fps ES 51 SD 18. Grp @ 50 yards = 1.18"
TCCI 5020 ...... 58.5grs (full case), 1878 fps ES 22 SD 8. Grp @ 50 yards = 1.3"

M38/46 (24" bbl).............................................. ..........

WC872 ............59.0grs (full case), 1921 fps, ES 11 SD 5. Grp @ 50 yards = 4/.870" & 5/1.910"
TCCI 5020 .......58.5grs (full case), 1800 fps, ES 53 SD 20. Grp @ 50 yards = 4/1" & 5/1.68"

M88/35 (29" bbl).............................................. ......

WC872 ............59.0grs (full case) 2019 fps, ES 51 SD 18. Grp @ 50 yards = 4/1.28" 5/2.44"
TCCI 5020 .......58.5grs (full case) 1897 fps, ES 26 SD 11. Grp @ 50 yards = .887"

Surplus WC860 will be similar to WC872 but I've always favored WC872 so I have a bunch of WC860 still hanging around:drinks:. Most any other generic cast boolit powders have also proven accurate, E.g. 2400, 4227, SR4759, and 4198. Truth be known a slug weighing almost 240grs in the 8mm Mauser is a somewhat sinfull waste of lead for just punching holes in paper. The 2 loads I highlighted above have proven over time to be excellent loads shooting about the same regardless of the time of the year. That load of TCCI 5020 in the M88/35 is a winner and never seems to put 5 into more then 1-1/8". Just a shame to use 58grs of powder and 240grs of lead, ha!

From the M38/46 all these loads hovered right around 1" for 5 rnds @ 50 yards:

Surp 4895, .......... 31.0grs, 1715 fps
Surp IMR 4198, ... 28.0grs, 1688 fps (similar to 4064)
H4198, ................ 23.0grs, 1664 fps
Surp SR4759, ...... 20.0 grs, 1679 fps

Over the faster powders and lighter loads I just use the Lee group buy 6 cav FN version of the factory Lee boolit. I haven't had one bounce off a target yet and they've proven equally accurate. If I'm going to shoot away that much lead I might as well get some gusto from it [smilie=w:

If your rifle is accurate with another 8mm cast design there isn't any reason the heavy one shouldn't be. BTW, OAL's I used with the heavy slug:

M38/46: 3.095", 3.230". 3.250"
M38: 3.090", 3.210", 3.215"
M88/35: 3.060", 3.090"

.................Buckshot

[biffj]

I've been using what you guys are calling cannon powders for some time. WC872 works great in the 50 BMG and so do WC860, WC868, WC869, WC870,. I've even used WC890 in the 50 cal though its really a bit slow. I've not noticed any buildup or dirtyness with any of these. My guess is that if you run them with high enough pressure to burn properly then they burn cleaner. Running them in tiny cases where the slow burning powder isn't really appropriate makes them leave films of scum and dirt. Duplexing scares me though I know others have been doing it for some time with no reported ill effects.
I'm using 5010 or WC872 in the 338 Lapua Mag and they work fantastic. I've got a goodly amount of WC868 and I'll have a go with it too. Just a bit faster than the 872 but slower than the 5010 and better metering. The 5010 fills the case enough to make compressed loads while not showing any pressure signs with lapua brass in the 338 LM. I'm guessing the 868 will allow a bit more powder into the case and maybe make it possible to get good velocity with the 300gr bullets.
I shoot WC872 and WC890 in the 20mm solothurn anti-tank rifle....about 600gr plus or minus with 1570gr projos. Velocity is around 2800-3000fps depending on load of course. WC 890 is pulldown or new powder for the 25mm Bushmaster round and is much slower than the 872. I've also been using the WC890 in the 24mm Swiss anti-tank rifle but in reduced capacity cases. This powder is a bit fast for the full capacity cases and could cause damage. On the other hand there is some powder for the 30mm GAU-8A cannon out there and its slower than the 890. Should be good for the little 24mm.

As for the real cannon powders....the bunny chow stuff, there are a wide variety there too. We shoot the small stuff, M1 FNH in our anti tank cannons of 25 to 37mm. Its a bit fast for some of the larger bore guns which normally use M6 powder. M1 has grains about a tenth of an inch in diameter and 2 tenths long with 7 perforations. M6 is about a quarter inch diameter and 1/2 inch long with 7 perforations. Some of the powder is coated with graphite so it looks grey or black, most of the M1 that we shoot is not coated and is green or amber. The bigger guns like the 76mm Tank and anti-tank guns and up to the 105mm normally use a slightly larger grain about 3/8" dia and 5/8" long. Yes there are guys who own and shoot these things and its a blast.

One note here on the bunny chow powders. For some reason beyond belief ATF has declared them to be explosive and requires licensing to purchase or sell them. Despite the fact that it won't detonate with a gunshot like Unique, bullseye or other double base powders with high nitro content, its an explosive? Even though you need black powder igniters on top of the primer to light the stuff its still an explosive?? what the hell? I guess its just non sporting......
They have allowed a couple lots of pulldown powder that I know of to be sold for sporting purposes and guys have been using it in rounds like the 20/50 which is a 20mm vulcan case necked down to 50 cal. Its a barrel burner for sure. Otherwise we have a hard time getting powder to shoot our cannons because of this stupid reg. It was foisted upon us by the SAFE explosives act of 2005. So the best of my knowledge possession of the stuff is ok but you need an explosives license to buy or sell it.

I can't imagine ball milling this big "powder" to make smaller bits. How would you get any consistency out of this? The debris would be a wide variety of sizes. You could do it wet so no (or less) worry about blowing oneself up but still not much sense. If I were really desperate I'd think more along the lines of redissolving the chunks in ether/acetone or MEK and reextruding it in a size I could use. That might actually get some consistency and allow you to make a size with a burn rate you could almost control.....

Frank