The .44-40

[Lead pot]

John w30wcf I know you shoot the .44 and who ever shoots the .44-40.
Most of the gong shoots I participate in have a 3 gun shoot, Lever, Pistol and the long range.
I don't have a good lead bullet lever shooter that has Ballard type rifling, they are either micro grooved or no hammer so I'm getting ready to look for a American Manufactured rifle in the .44-40 caliber. This leaves me with the 92 Winchester or the Henry. The 1860 Henry is my #1 choice . These are the only two rifles that I'm interested in and they will only be loaded with black powder. The 73's are an option but it will not be an import.
The question is how does the .44-40 perform out to 500 yards? and will they reliably take care of the gongs or silhouettes at these ranges?

Kurt

[freedom475]

There was a man shooting a 44-40 Uberti Henry at the 2013 Medicine Rocks shoot...he was using VERY light smokeless loads in the rifle. He did pretty well at the levergun gong match with it.

[Don McDowell]

Kurt our old friend Dick Savage shot his 44-40 at Baker, did real well till the wind came up, think he had clean target on the bucket.. i.e. most of his bullets lit about 10 ft to the right..

[John Boy]

Kurt, John holds an annual Lever Action Jubilee match at Ridgway. The COF is 200 - 500 meters and John uses his Marlin with 44-40. The Rams don't have a chance. Am sure he will post up some of the groups he's shot that evidence the 44-40 will handle steel out to 500 meters. And so will a 300gr 45LC!

[Lead pot]

TNX. Guys. I'm looking for pro's and cons on this project. I have a 6 shooter in the .44-40 and it feels like a pretty hefty load with a full house of 2F or 3F I use in it and it does well to the 100 yard bowling pin and I would like to keep the shells universal for both.
Don I sent Dick a E-mail I knew he had one or has one. As far as wind is concerned that would give me an excuse I wouldn't have if I used a .45-70 :)

[missionary5155]

Greetings
In my 44 WCF's I use a 220 grain cast from a Saeco 443 mold with 3F. Have not shot it out to 500 as our club only has 300 yards but the 220 does hold on course better. Our range shoots south to north and we always have winds from the west. Once you get the drift figured a 18 inch gong at 300 yards is not hard off cross sticks minus the unexpected gusts or sudden lulls. I would not go back to the 200 grainers in my 44 WCF's for long range shooting. I will happily give up some velocity for the far better momentum down range.
Mike in Peru

[Outpost75]

This 230-grain version adapted from John Kort's design has correct lube capacity for black powder and is a bit heavier to carry up better at longer ranges. I have not shot it past 200 yards, but that was in a 7-1/2" Ruger Vaquero with factory cylinder rechambered to .447 neck diameter with .4305 cylinder throats and sizing bullets .430 for the Ruger barrel, which in their .44-40s is dimensioned the same as in their .44 Magnums.

156353

[BrentD]

Kurt,
How did you come to rule out the Marlin? I use one in 38-40 with black. I wouldn't use any other make of rifle with blackpowder. Marlins are far superior for that purpose.

Merry Christmas one and all!

[Lead pot]

Mike and Outpost

Thank you for your input.
Merry Christmas

[Lead pot]

Brent.

I haven't ruled the Marlin out. I had a 89 in the .25-20 that I really liked it just has not entered my mind for some reason.
The 81 or the 89 would be good if you can find one with a good bore.

Merry Christmas Brent and all the rest of you here.

[BrentD]

I'm partial to the 94 Marlins in pistol calibers. There are a lot of them out there and you can't beat them for ease of cleaning from the breech, or working up a good trigger.

[Kosh75287]

I had a friend with a Rossi M1892 in .45 Colt who, in his more whimsical moments, debated the virtues of seating a 260gr. Keith-style bullet upside down, and creating a "boat-tailed wadcutter"! Well, I guess y'had t'BE there, but it WAS funny....

[ragnar]

Kurt, I shoot a Uberti 1873 carbine in .44-40 and love it, it's what I shoot at the lever matches. I load the Accurate 210B bullet with OE1.5(because that's all I have). 200 yards is the furthest I've shot with it, however. I'm headed to Arizona this winter and will be looking for a good range that goes out to 500. I would love to see one of those American-made Henrys but don't they cost as much as a Shiloh? I'm looking for another .44-40 in rifle configuration, probably another Uberti 1873 or 1866.
Mike

[Lead pot]

Kosh
Nothing wrong with wad cutters, :) I shot a bunch in the .38 Gold Cup and the 52 S&W Master. Even in the Sharps, :)

[Lead pot]

Well Mike maybe I will run into you down in Cactus Land this winter.
Yes the 1860 American Henry's are very pricy. I have seen them shoot on a few occasions and they are impressive with the accuracy they have and how they function using black powder with out failure to feed.
How good does your .44-40 hold at the 200?


I have a friend that lives down in the Phoenix local and he took me to the Reo Salado Range and it is a fine Public range you can shoot on for a small fee.
Also there is the Ben Avery.


These are the two that I have stopped to look at.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=rio+salado+gun+range+pictures&qpvt=rio+salado+gun+range+pictures&qpvt=rio+salado+gun+range+pictures&FORM=IGRE

https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=ben+avery+shooting+range&qpvt=ben+avery+shooting+range&qpvt=ben+avery+shooting+range&FORM=IGRE

[35 Whelen]

A Uberti 24" Sporting Rifle passed through my hands a couple of years ago, and I've regretted selling it from the moment I dropped it off at the FedEx depot.
Since it was used, I decided to try it and order a mould (http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=37&products_id=233) from NOE and some brass. I didn't try hard to work up a load, but loaded it with 10.0 grs. of Unique. One of the things I loved about the rifle was the ladder sight. Had I kept the rifle I would've regulated the sights, but they were close enough. I have a 100 and 200 yd. range behind the shop and shot it some, enjoying every minute. Given I didn't even try to work up a load, I thought it shot pretty well:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Auctions/Uberti1866100ydlabeled2_zps458034f5.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Auctions/Uberti1866100ydlabeled2_zps458034f5.jpg.html)

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Auctions/Uberti1866200ydlabeled7_zps85e4c5d9.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Auctions/Uberti1866200ydlabeled7_zps85e4c5d9.jpg.html)

I'd really like to have another in the same make and model. The search is on....

I recently picked up a couple of original Winchester '73's, both in 38-40 and both 24" barrels; an 1886 production and an 1890 production. Spent the morning shooting the newer one at 100 and 200 yds.

35W

[BrentD]

Kurt, when you are in Tucson, you should look up Chip Mate. He shoots a Uberti, 44-40 steel frame with black and owns a few records and state championships with it.

[Lead pot]

Yes those Henry's are pricy, but they shoot!!
When all said and done I will probably end up with another 86 in the .38-56 caliber.

[w30wcf]

Kurt,
I have shot the 427098 / 36 / Swiss FFG at 500 and it seemed to do pretty well at that distance holding in about a 3 MOA group from my Marlin Cowboy rifle. Due to the lower b.c. and s.d. of the bullet it is more wind sensitive. As I recall I needed about an 80 MOA come up from a 100 yard zero to get on target.

I was planning on doing more testing at that distance this past year also including Olde E and a heavier 250 gr bullet but ran out of time. Hopefully in 2016........

A micro grooved rifle should work as well if it is accurate with smokeless and cast bullets. Outpost75 has been shooting b.p. from his mg Marlin with good results.

Have fun!
w30wcf

[w30wcf]

35 Whelen,
Nice rifle! Nice target pics! Thank you for posting.

w30wcf

[Lead pot]

Thank you John.

I was hoping you would jump in here because I saw one of your episodes with the .44 lever rifle shooting silhouettes that was pretty impressive wondering what the particulars where. I really don't know why I feel I need to be getting another rifle. I have 4. a couple .30 calibers and a nice early .444 Marlin that has a micro groove barrel that just shoots lights out using my jacketed swaged bullets I swage using black powder or smokeless but It just will not shoot the cast bullets no matter what the alloy is or powder loads. It would be a fine rifle for the lever matches if I could get a lead bullet load to shoot in it.

Kurt

[35 Whelen]

35 Whelen,
Nice rifle! Nice target pics! Thank you for posting.

w30wcf

Thanks John.

I'm trying to decide how best to go about acquiring a 44-40. I have two OLD '73 Winchesters (1886 & 1890) in 38-40, and the eldest has a bore that is beyond hopeless. It has entered my mind to have the barrel lined and chambered to 44-40. Or, I could sell it and probably have enough money to buy another Uberti like the one pictured above. I lean toward the latter option because I just love the models with ladder sights and would be as happy as a fat kid in a candy store working up and regulating a load for those sights.
Decisions, decisions.

35W

[Springfield]

I have found that my Uberti Henry shoots better at 200 yards than my '66 or '73 rifles. Stiffer, heavier barrel? And Winchester does make a '73 now, although it is made in Japan.

[Lead pot]

I spent the day browsing the local gun shops today and I ran across a very nice Mod. 94 Winchester in the .375 caliber. Fine looking rifle. It almost followed me home :) It has a little more push then the .44-40 has and it might even make a better rifle for the lever matches.

[w30wcf]

Kurt,
Some years ago Marshall Stanton on the Beartooth website wrote a 3 part series on the .444 Marlin on getting them to shoot accurately with cast bullets. He said that in his rifles the throats were a bit large and best results were with .432" / .433" bullets. The end result was that he was able to get groups in the 1" range.

After he was able to accomplish that he had written about trying black powder and softer bullets but if he did, he never wrote about it.

Here are links to the 3 part series he wrote.....
http://beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/17
http://beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/19
http://beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/28

w30wcf

[Lead pot]

John TNX. for the links.
I got my rifle I think around 1968 maybe 7 and it has the micro 1/38 ROT. and it shoots best with the swaged 220 gr knurled bullets I make with out the jacket. But I don't call 5" @ 100 yards good using cast or swaged lead bullets.
I will go over the reading and see if I can pick up something to try.

Kurt

[Lead pot]

Interesting reading John. I did not swage bullets as large as 405 gr for my load developments but I did expand my knurled bullets as much as .434" and the shorter 220 gr to 235 gr shot the best using a alloy mix as hard as1/16 tin lead and 8 oz of linotype added that tightened the groups the best. I will knurl some and do the fire lap. the bore is as rough as a concrete storm sewer tile looking through the Hawkeye.

Anyway thank you for the article. I will revisit the 444 again with more work. It was starting to look like a bland winter. This will give me something to do.

[BrentD]

Kurt,
the 94 will be no picnic to take down and clean. If you are thinking of using black, you might reconsider.

[Lead pot]

Brent I have had a couple 94's and a 86 and yes I agree about the cleaning them.
I'm going to look at a couple Marlins 2 in the .40-60 and one .38-55.
I really don't want the 94 with a 20" barrel I don't think.

[BrentD]

A 93 Marlin with a 26" barrel, round or octagon is a hell of a rifle. You can tune a perfect trigger in it easily. Can be cleaned from the breach with the removal of one screw, strong as an ox, and relatively cheap. If you find a .30 or .32 cal have it rebored to .38-55 and you are good to go.

[Lead pot]

This 93 Marlin is chambered in the 38-55 caliber 26" octagon barrel marked "Special Smokeless Steel"

[BrentD]

That's the one I would want. Pretty much what I have except I had to rebore to get it.

[doc1876]

Leadpot, I have a Uberti Henry, and love it. I will tell you that it is much heavier than the 73, so it seems to not kick at all, but you are the one that has to lug it around.

[Lead pot]

Doc. I took a ride in heavy fog today and hit a couple more shops and one had a 1860 Uberti and today I looked at a 76 Uberti in a .44. and .45 Colt. Both looked like fine rifles. Surprising how close they copied the originals.
If the Fog lifts by morning I will head to Cedar Rapids IA. gun show and see what might follow me home.

[Grapeshot]

Doc. I took a ride in heavy fog today and hit a couple more shops and one had a 1860 Uberti and today I looked at a 76 Uberti in a .44. and .45 Colt. Both looked like fine rifles. Surprising how close they copied the originals.
If the Fog lifts by morning I will head to Cedar Rapids IA. gun show and see what might follow me home.

Do you mean an 1873 Uberti? The 1876 is chambered in .45-75; .45-60; and .40-60. The 1876 is a BIG rifle that was made to compete with the single shot buffalo guns.

[freebullet]

I looked at an original colt pump rifle in this caliber. It was more than I was willing to spend but, beautiful none the less.

[Lead pot]

Your right the 76 is the big boys gun. :) I have looked at so many of these last few days the 73's 76's 92's 81's 93's are starting to run together. :)


Do you mean an 1873 Uberti? The 1876 is chambered in .45-75; .45-60; and .40-60. The 1876 is a BIG rifle that was made to compete with the single shot buffalo guns.

[BrentD]

Kurt, I have forgotten, if I ever knew, what you are wanting to do with this lever, whichever it turns out to be. You seem to be considering pistol cartridge rifles along with regular rifles. There's a lot of difference in their capabilities of course. Does that not matter?

[Lead pot]

Brent.

Pistol or rifle does not matter. When this started with me I was leaning towards a 1860 Henry. I like the rifle and the .44-40 I think would do this job but it would most likely be on the low end. The .38-55 for the lever action side matches at the gong shoots would be a better choice. But thinking lately while looking at several of the smaller pistol calibers like the .38-40 and the .44-40 I have found some very nice early 92 Winchesters in these two calibers and in all honesty these would serve me nicely for what I mostly shoot at like swinging bowling pins hanging on a wire at 200 yards for offhand practice. The lever matches would only be maybe three over my summer gong shoots so the use for this will be slight.
I don't want a pistol caliber like the .357, .44 Mag or the .45 colt calibers, I want to stay with the old Winchesters or Marlins and they will have to have a clean bright bore. This is the hard part from what I have looked at.

[BrentD]

Okay, then you don't need the knockdown power at 200 yds that silhouette requires. Vintage rifles are definitely the way to go. I do recall something about black and where that is concerned the 94/93 Marlins beat the 94/92 Winchesters hands down. Otherwise, the 92 Winnies are darn nice rifles. I'd own one were it not for the blackpowder issue.

[Lead pot]

Brent I shoot black powder in almost all of my guns including the 1911. The black powder is really not much of a problem I don't think in a lever rifle. Most of the crud stays in the barrel except some of the lever rifles you have to clean from the muzzle and this is not ideal with the Winchesters. What did most of the damage in the original lever rifles was the use of the corrosive primers. This is what did the damage in these fine rifles.
I shoot a lot of black powder in my hand guns especially the gold cup and I don't very often pull the grips off and tear it down completely and I have yet to see any signs of rust in the innerts.

[BrentD]

Kurt,
I like to wipe my rifles every so often in the midst of shooting. I can that w/o a rod (homemade "snake" thing), but mostly at the end of the day it is just so easy to clean from the breech with a regular rid. So, that's why I prefer Marlins. No way I would do that with a Winchester. This year, I'll try to shoot black at Raton in the Nationals and the Marlin will be a lot easier. Some guys even put thumbscrews in place of their original lever screws and it makes it even easier. I know if I owned a 92, I'd never really get my lazy butt moving enough to shoot black in it at a match. But that's just me.

Brent

[Lead pot]

My 444 marlin is the same way. One screw and the bolt comes out.

[Don McDowell]

Kurt when in town getting feed today, stopped by one of the local slobber shops, they've got a Marlin 1895b in 45-70. Give me a call if you're interested in that rifle.

[Lead pot]

Don.

What is a Marlin 95 b? I never seen a 95B

[Don McDowell]

Finger missed the C... 1895 CB, 45-70,26 in octagon barrel,

[Lead pot]

Don

Tnx for the thought. There are a couple here local.

[Don McDowell]

cool beans

[TXGunNut]

Don

Tnx for the thought. There are a couple here local.

Wow, haven't seen one around here for years. Have heard about some for silly prices.

[Lead pot]

Don, cold beans aint bad compared to beef steak and potatoes out of "C ration cans" :)

I ordered another CPA so the lever gun buying is shut down for a spell. I figured I need a tight chambered .45-90 more. :)
I did start working on my micro grooved .444 today. I started lapping the bore and took several slugs to keep checking on progress. Bore scoped the bore before I started the lapping and this has the worst looking bore I have looked at. The tool marks in this rifle is worse then any Montana two track back country path I ever took my 4X4 over. It also has a .4233" bore with a .4298" groove. Very shallow for a .444 Marlin. After many passes with lead slugs and 150 grid lapping compound some of the tool ditches are starting to disappear and it's starting to look pretty decent. I made some fire lapping slugs and imbedded some 400 grid Clover compound. I will send 10 of those down the barrel in the morning with a light powder charge to polish it a little more. Also I ordered a 300 gr mould from Accurate. Maybe I can make this rifle shoot a cast bullet. That shallow groove this rifle has should shoot a PP very good if it wont handle a GG.

[Don McDowell]

Kurt if that is one of the older .444's those had like a 1-32 twist and wouldn't stabilize anything heavier than a 240-260 gr bullet.

[Lead pot]

Don,

Mine is a 1/38"....Halve turn in 19".
I swage 300 grain jacketed conical truncated bullets for this rifle and it shoots them very good. Using black or smokeless powder.
I will see if I can get this rifle to come around when Tom sends the mould.

[Don McDowell]

hopefully you get it straightened up one of these days, I know you've been wrestling with that thing for quite some time.

[missionary5155]

Don, cold beans aint bad compared to beef steak and potatoes out of "C ration cans" :)

Greetings
I have happily ignored thinking of cold C-rats for a long time. Lima beams was the pits ! Happily I was in Armor and we had a very large "hot plate" ready for use.
Saw JES Reboring has a 336 rebored to 444 with 1-15 twist. That is his standard twist on fat calibers. Have one on 405 JES (.412-444) and it will shoot any cast weight up to 345 grains. He advertises on Gun Broker. The rebored 336 is $550 shipped.
Mike in Peru

[35 Whelen]

My 1866 Sporting Rifle in 44-40 finally arrived. It shoots really well with smokeless and black. I'm having a ball regulating the sights. So far 100 is dead on but 200 is a bit high, so I'm working on rear sight mods to a correct this. After that I'll see what happens at 300, IF I can find a windless day!
Here's a 100 yd. sample:
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Mobile%20Uploads/20160116_104543_zpswkyvlhvx.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160116_104543_zpswkyvlhvx.jpg.html)

....and. 200 yd. sample:

http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Mobile%20Uploads/20160117_155553_zpsginwzs1h.jpg (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160117_155553_zpsginwzs1h.jpg.html)
35W

[Lead pot]

Thank you Mike. I been thinking along that line getting the 336 rebored.

[Lead pot]

35W that is a fine looking shooter! and most important it looks like it likes to be shot :)
Let me know about your progress with that shooter.

Kurt