Drawing from the holster at the range- Allowed?

[mjwcaster]

Just wondering how things work out for other parts of the country.

Do your local ranges allow drawing from the holster?
Public or private range?

We just got concealed carry here in IL a few years ago, and most public (all that I know of in my area) and many private ranges do not allow drawing from a holster.

Some ranges do have classes or competitions that allow drawing from a holster.

Even many private ranges do not allow drawing from a holster, or if they do you have to be approved first.

I fully understand the reasoning behind this, just look at the walls/ceilings of any range.

But the thought of concealed carriers never getting the chance to practice live fire from a holster is discouraging.

[.22-10-45]

Primer powered rubber bullets or wax slugs might still sting..but better than a hole in your leg!

[JWFilips]

PA Game Commission States: No guns will be loaded unless actively shooting; sorry I carry concealed all the time so I guess I would need to be searched...However On the firing line you can draw from a holster as long as you loaded at the bench & take your place i line!

[dragon813gt]

PA Game Commission States: No guns will be loaded unless actively shooting; sorry I carry concealed all the time so I guess I would need to be searched...However On the firing line you can draw from a holster as long as you loaded at the bench & take your place i line!

You left out the part of how few rounds you can load ;)

[JWFilips]

Yes it is Six! You are screwed if you have a 10 shot
But I only use one mostly, I shoot rife & load single shot! ( PA is not that bad...Yet)

[Love Life]

My range doesn't care.

Drawing from a holster at the house (make sure gun is unloaded (I can't believe I even have to type that) first) is always an option.

[GhostHawk]

I shoot at the Red River Regional Marksmanship center. Guns enter cased. Case goes on the counter, gun is either in case, on counter with muzzle pointed downrange, or in hand again with muzzle pointed down range.

I would suggest that if you want to practice holster draw that you use snap caps, laser, or rubber bullets only. Or, go find a square mile with no habitation on it, walk out a half mile into the middle and have at it. If you fire please be sure where it is pointed, be sure of your background.
But I really have no interest in shooting myself in the leg in the middle of no where.

[Friends call me Pac]

Me trying out a new holster about 2 years ago. I only do this when I am by myself at the range for safety reasons.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc157/pactac/th_kimber%20quick%20draw2_zps9nsvyfid.mp4 (http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc157/pactac/kimber%20quick%20draw2_zps9nsvyfid.mp4)

[Love Life]

What safety reasons? I'm not asking to be a smart aleck either. If people practice safe firearms handling then practicing drawing from a holster is no big deal.

[bedbugbilly]

In MI, I only shoot on my own "mini range" that I have on the farm - 50 yards max for shooting. In AZ, non of the ranges I shot at there allow holster draw. I don't have a problem with that rule as I understand the liability and quite frankly, I've seen a few who just shoot from the bench that I don't want to be around let alone have them practice their draw!

Jim -I've been to one range in AZ where they have "no loaded guns allowed" posted. I also carry concealed so I'm like you - they'd have to search me which isn't going to happen. Most of the time if I'm going to a range to shoot, I carry my pistol/s in my range bag. For holster draw practice, I save it for an unloaded firearm alone at home.

While "drawing" is mentioned, that is one thing that I have a feeling a lot of people don't practice that they should - in a safe manner. Some folks don't even put in practice shooting on a regular basis.

The only time I was allowed to "draw and shoot" was in a CPL class that it was required during the different shooting relays we did - under close supervision and we had some excellent instructors - former military spec. ops, swat team members, etc. Their reason for having us draw and shoot was to observe and make suggestions - which was extremely helpful. I picked up a lot from them and it was one of the best classes I've ever taken. I'm not as competitive shooter, IDPA etc. so the training and help was greatly appreciated and most of us in the class were experienced shooters - and we all agreed we learned a LOT.

One thing I've noticed as I've gotten older is that the joints and muscles hurt a lot more and I'm not a flexible as I was as a young pup. I normally carry OWB - right side about 4 o'clock. I think it's especially important to practice as we get older just to keep the muscles and joints we use limbered up - what can I say other than it's heck getting old!

[Steve77]

I am a member of a private Sportsman's club. I have the combination to the lock on the gate. I have the place to myself 9 times out of ten. When others are around I don't draw from a holster. If it is just myself or guys I know, holster draw is good to go.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Yes, I practice draw at the range.

Does anyone use the Israeli draw (empty chamber) ?
or the IMD draw ? which is almost the same.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGD2j9ks38g

[Love Life]

JonB- As tactical as the person in the video was, how could one resist using that method? Desert tan beanie, tactical shirt, tactical pants, operator sunglasses and warrior beard lol.

I carry with one in the chamber. I'm not Israeli special forces so I feel at a disadvantage carrying with an empty chamber.

[Geezer in NH]

Kind of hard to run action pistol/defense competitions with out drawing from holsters. FIND some new clubs away from the fudds. IMHO

[dragon813gt]

I carry with one in the chamber. I'm not Israeli special forces so I feel at a disadvantage carrying with an empty chamber.
Same here. I want to draw and pull the trigger. You can practice drawing at home. I suggest you put on some 5.11 gear, crank up Metallica and tell yourself what a BA you are after every draw :laugh:

[Love Life]

Ever since I picked up the M9A3, I have been walking around the house with my flak, Kevlar, Oakley sunglass, and Oakley assault gloves on. I clear rooms, pie doorways and windows, and have put a chest holster on my flak jacket because looking like an operator is more important than having grenade pouches.

My wife mentioned that she doesn't love me any more...lol.

[Friends call me Pac]

[COLOR=#333333]"What safety reasons? I'm not asking to be a smart aleck either. If people practice safe firearms handling then practicing drawing from a holster is no big deal."

The safety reason that comes to mind is I don't have to worry about where anyone else is or doing as I shoot. I'm not worried about me. I know what I am doing. I worry about others.

[Geezer in NH]

Fudd problem it seems I am OK but others no

[jsizemore]

Many ranges in my area have IDPA and 3 gun matches. You should be able to draw and shoot at your home range. If not, where? Extra work for the range officer but that's what he gets paid for.

[Schrag4]

What safety reasons? I'm not asking to be a smart aleck either. If people practice safe firearms handling then practicing drawing from a holster is no big deal.

Aren't you like 100x more likely to have a ND while holstering a loaded gun than at any other time? Drawstrings or shirt tails getting into the holster can pull the trigger. I'm not saying it's a bad idea for those of us that pay close attention to what we're doing (I personally watch the gun into the holster very carefully), I just understand why some ranges don't allow it, like the local indoor range I visit occasionally. They're cool about other stuff, though. There's another range in town that doesn't even allow more than one shot per second :veryconfu

I much prefer to shoot on private property where I can practice drawing and shooting, plus lots of other things that I could not do at a public range.

[TXGunNut]

In a word "insurance". Longtime (former) LE and PPC/Action/IPSC competitor and I still do almost all my practice draws at home with an unloaded gun. Getting in right takes hundreds (ok, thousands) of reps and there's no reason to do that with a loaded gun. I'm probably doing it wrong because I don't own any Oakleys or a flak jacket. I may or may not own a Kevlar vest and I only clear rooms when something falls off the wall or off a shelf or something.
Organized competition is one exception to the "no draw" rules at most ranges and the range generally controls that very closely. My club allows concealed carry but when I shoot my carry gun I case it up unloaded and carry something else or draw, unload and place it on the bench with the action open.

[Finster101]

If I can't practice at the range what is the point of belonging? Hell, I can walk around my entire life and never pull my pistol from it's holster......Hopefully.

[Love Life]

Aren't you like 100x more likely to have a ND while holstering a loaded gun than at any other time? Drawstrings or shirt tails getting into the holster can pull the trigger.

Yes, this happens to mouth breathers, lol. It's not hard to look down and clear away clothing or drawstrings and such before re-holstering. If you're re-holstering "4 realz" then any threat is just about mitigated and you can spare a glance to your holster.

I say this as if it is what everybody does, but the interweb stories have proven otherwise.

[waksupi]

The danger comes during the re-holstering.

[shooterg]

Insurance and Idiots are why we don't allow MOST of the time. Of course we allow during competitions and practice when an RSO is on site. So far we've avoided having to have a full time RSO , partially because ALL Range members are required to attend an orientation where the site rules are explained in detail(as in, this ain't Grampa's farm, and we're always just one shot away from Range closure, so NO, you can't do this,this, and this !). Some folks watch too much TV and have had no instruction on presenting their handgun. Strangely the only person that has shot him self in the leg on our site was LEO !

[runfiverun]

I do what I want.
shoot 2 1911's at once
draw from the holster [shrug]
shoot the gun upside down, between your legs, or behind your back if you want.

[Love Life]

You also live in an awesome spot. Must be nice to be high drag, low speed.

[Czech_too]

"Do your local ranges allow drawing from the holster?
Public or private range?"

The private range which I go to does not allow drawing from the holster.
The firing line is concrete and the danger from a negligent discharge/shooter is to great IMO.
There are enough, actually to many, holes already in the metal roof and other areas of the firing line.

[jonp]

Same here. I want to draw and pull the trigger. You can practice drawing at home. I suggest you put on some 5.11 gear, crank up Metallica and tell yourself what a BA you are after every draw :laugh:

If your a cop with a glock you can draw and pull the trigger at the same time

[jonp]

Yes, I practice draw at the range.

Does anyone use the Israeli draw (empty chamber) ?
or the IMD draw ? which is almost the same.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGD2j9ks38g

Interesting but it seems to me that the more you have going on in a high pressure situation the greater the chance of something going wrong such as sticking your hand in front of the muzzle trying to pull the slide back. Short stroking the slide, pulling the trigger after pulling the slide back but before proper aim, etc.

The less you have to do when the Adrenalin is up the better. KISS is in operation at times like those. It's one of the reasons I always recommend a double action revolver for those who want something on the nightstand or don't spend alot of time practicing for whatever reason. Point and pull the trigger. No slide racking, safeties, mag releases, jams from mags etc...

[Sasquatch-1]

Below is the best reason I know for NOT allowing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2urjEixqrzM

[imashooter2]

I belong to 2 private ranges. The near one does not allow draw except in competition. The far one does not allow draw except in competition on the established ranges, however they do have a couple of "pits" where you can practice draw, multiple targets, shoot and move, etc..

[Finster101]

Below is the best reason I know for NOT allowing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2urjEixqrzM

Idiots come in all shapes and sizes.

[DerekP Houston]

At my local ranges you are required to take a safety class to perform from the holster. After you take the class, it is noted on your name in the system and you are allowed to practice. They are required for safety reasons and liability.

[MBTcustom]

Love life: knuckle bump
rest of the thread: facepalm.

156304

[imashooter2]

Idiots come in all shapes and sizes.


Yeah, and they could be standing next to you practicing their draw. Which would be why most ranges in densely populated areas won't allow it. Too many people in close proximity. Too much down side.

[Petrol & Powder]

Generally idiots are only a danger to themselves, even when drawing/re-holstering. However, if you've ever stood to the left of an idiot right handed shooter using a cross-draw rig or a shoulder holster or vice-versa; you'll quickly understand why some ranges get nervous.
I've seen some real morons with shoulder holsters and they scare me.

[daniel lawecki]

Only on leagues that the club approves and only then. There are a lot of safety issues with quick draw in must ranges mostly insurance reason.

[Dakooz]

Not allowed at my range...

[runfiverun]

You also live in an awesome spot. Must be nice to be high drag, low speed.

we got a lot of high drag low speed operators here.
I wouldn't want to get into a firefight with them though, there would be a total of 6 rounds expelled and no brass to pick up.
unless the local PD showed up then they'd have to have some spotter rounds and a little help remembering which way to turn their scope dials.
but after that you'd better watch out they have to qualify every summer.

[Friends call me Pac]

There is a world of difference between doing something for real and simulation. I prefer to know I can draw from my cc holster no matter what I am wearing and place rounds on target instead of just hoping it will be the same as in the safety of my own living room. Stress is a factor that you will need to face in order to best control it. I know I can handle shooting from a cc holster & I know that there will be no ND upon re-holstering if I engage the safety & keep my finger off the trigger and actually across the trigger guard to protect something else causing a ND. That is something I practice all of the time.

I chose the private range that I did join because the owner understands my concerns and has no issue with me doing this. If I just wanted to stand at the line and shoot 1 round every 6 seconds I'd still be at the public range practicing for bulls eye matches but I'm not practicing for a target score.

[Down South]

We can draw from a holster at my range unless it is something like a Galco Miami Classic. Those types of holsters are not allowed.
I'll have to guess at the reason but I would think it is to prevent possible sweeping of others when one would draw from that position.
But to me, a belt holster worn in a cross draw position would cause the same problem.
Belt holsters are allowed.

On edit:
I didn't consider indoor ranges since I've only been in a couple in my life. I don't like indoor ranges but that is just me. I'm sure some of you northern folks don't have many options in the winter months.
My range, the handgun bays are divided by cinder block walls. The firing lines are well inside the cinder block walls. You would have to actually shoot behind to get a bullet out of containment. Or you would have to shoot above the berms shooting forward.
I can understand the ability to holster draw at my range.
On a range where everyone is standing on the same firing line with no protection between shooters, I can understand holster draw not being allowed.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I belong to two clubs , the indoor range club with several hundred members is only holster draw when we are running action pistol or classes , I suppose it limits the chances you will do it stupid when being watched by the RO running the competition or class

the indoor range is fine with conceal carry , but if it is your carry gun it needs to stay your carry gun and not come out , with one exception provided your holster is not cross draw or shoulder or some type where you will muzzle sweep people , if you carry and you want to be sure that your gun will work exactly as carried , once you are all set up you can carefully as in not a speed draw , unholster your carry gun and shoot it , but you are not to reholster a loaded gun , you need to do that off range

it keeps the insurance man happy I guess

the outdoor club I belong to it is fine but that is a very small private club fewer than 50 members

[Schrag4]

Yes, this happens to mouth breathers, lol. It's not hard to look down and clear away clothing or drawstrings and such before re-holstering. If you're re-holstering "4 realz" then any threat is just about mitigated and you can spare a glance to your holster.

I say this as if it is what everybody does, but the interweb stories have proven otherwise.

I agree with you. I don't understand why anyone wouldn't look at the holster if they had the opportunity, but I see it at local matches all the time - people struggling to get their guns back into holsters, but refusing to look to see what the problem is. It's cringe-worthy. They must think I'm a total newb when I so intently watch to make sure there's nothing in the way and that the gun is going where I want it to go. I'd rather be known as the nerd who's safe than the cool guy who's missing a pinky toe.

[Love Life]

It's not operator like to look at a holster to ensure it is free of obstacles/barriers/stuff in the way prior to holstering. You may have an additional 43 bad guys jump out and need to engage them mid-holstering.

Also, you have to look left, right, left, right, left, right, left, and right, while holding the gun at the center of your chest while assessing. Lord forbid you do eyes, body, weapon so...you know...your gun is pointed at the threat when you see it, but whatevs. Now I'm just babbling.

[dragon813gt]

It's not operator like to look at a holster to ensure it is free of obstacles/barriers/stuff in the way prior to holstering. You may have an additional 43 bad guys jump out and need to engage them mid-holstering.

Also, you have to look left, right, left, right, left, right, left, and right, while holding the gun at the center of your chest while assessing. Lord forbid you do eyes, body, weapon so...you know...your gun is pointed at the threat when you see it, but whatevs. Now I'm just babbling.

Lots and lots of LOLs in those two paragraphs :laugh:

[paul h]

I see the benefit of practicing holster draw, and I also see the concern from the ranges standpoint given the number of idiots that show up. The last few times I've left scratching my head when you have people that don't understand simple things like putting your handgun on the bench with the barrel pointed down range, not down the line, or removing the magazine before "emptying" the gun during a ceasefire...

[DCM]

One range here requires certification with knowledge of their sensible rules for doing this on specified ranges, others don't allow it at all, one has no rules regarding this.
Most ranges here allow it during certain "action type" matches with ROs.

[azrednek]

What safety reasons? I'm not asking to be a smart aleck either. If people practice safe firearms handling then practicing drawing from a holster is no big deal.

I no longer go to my public range on weekends. Even though drawing and shooting is against the rules. On weekends I just see way to much careless handling especially the weirdos rapid firing their pistol sideways. The older more mature shooters show up during the week and I rarely see anything I consider careless or rude.

[dtknowles]

The two local ranges I visit require that loaded guns be pointed down range. If you put a loaded gun in a holster you have violated the rules unless the holster is on the bench. Both the pistol ranges have a bench more than waist high and most shooters belly right up to the bench, not the best place to practice drawing from a holster even if it was allowed. At one range the Range Officers are allowed to carry on duty but not allowed to shoot. Of duty the Range Officers are susposed to be treated like everyone else.

Call me a tattle tail but I pointed out to the Range Officer a shooter who I watched load up his weapon and belt it on. The Range Officers mostly chit chat and don't watch like they should. The RO handled the deal OK but the guy lost a little of his buddy's and girlfriend's admiration due to being corrected. If he did not have his groupies and attitude I would have just quietly talked to him myself.

Until the land owner posted the land I used to get to practice more practically in a marl pit, often had the place to myself.

I have a friend who used to conduct a monthly non-sanctioned completion, reactive targets, obstacles, move and shoot, weak hand requirements, time limits and shot count. He always had us start at low ready. When you were done, you had to drop the magazine, rack the slide and holster the gun before returning to the firing line.

Sadly the Seals have that range all to themselves now. Club built it but the Seals took it over and ran the club off. It was on NASA property at Stennis Space Center, the Seals train in the swamps there, probably no more formidable swamp in the northern hemisphere, Pearl River Delta.

Tim

[waksupi]

Ya know, it's a better idea to practice at home with an unloaded firearm. Lots of mirrors have been killed by unloaded handguns over the years. Better at the mirror, than on the range.

[azrednek]

Ya know, it's a better idea to practice at home with an unloaded firearm. Lots of mirrors have been killed by unloaded handguns over the years. Better at the mirror, than on the range.

I agree really helped me with the so-called muscle memory drawing from an IWB holster.

[hutch18414]

We have had 3 days of rain here. In 3 days I have dry fired working on trigger control and sight picture about4000 times. And have practiced drawing about 400 times. Empty gun,cocked and locked when drawing. My mirror starts trembling when it sees me coming. Can't wait for the rain to stop, need to smell some powder.

[Lonegun1894]

While I don't like a lot of ranges not allowing drawing from holster, I fully understand and in a way appreciate that they don't. I use two ranges, and work as RO (always armed) at one of them sometimes. One has a specific area with 10 ft tall berms on 3 sides where you are allowed to draw, quick-draw, or basically whatever you want. The other where I am RO sometimes, does not allow drawing UNLESS you basically have the range to yourself. It is a safety issue. I have seen too many people have NDs in random directions to include down range, through the roof, through the bench, through a leg, parallel to the firing line, etc,. It shouldn't happen, and it doesn't happen with people who HONESTLY practice and focus on safety, but which one of you wants their wife or kid to be with you at the range when one of these brain-dead idjits shows up, parks their range bag next to you, and starts practicing their quickdraw? Now if you know the person and know they can be trusted, it is one thing, but with one of these ranges I go to being a private club that allows it's members to bring guests, and the other being a private range that is a business and gives you the option of either getting a yearly membership or paying a daily entry fee, you can never be sure who is who unless you personally know them. Now someday, I want my own private piece of land that I own, and no one except me and mine can use the range on, but til that day comes, I am stuck with the current ranges I use.

[FISH4BUGS]

[COLOR=#333333]"What safety reasons? I'm not asking to be a smart aleck either. If people practice safe firearms handling then practicing drawing from a holster is no big deal."
The safety reason that comes to mind is I don't have to worry about where anyone else is or doing as I shoot. I'm not worried about me. I know what I am doing. I worry about others.
Not trying to be a smart aleck either but that is exactly the reasoning that I used when I shot myself in the leg with a 22. I know what I am doing. It takes only a fraction of a second to make a mistake. Mine was not knowing that my old Ruger Red Eagle did not have a magazine cutoff and there was one in the chamber.
But I knew what I was doing.
I get to carry the bulet in my leg for the rest of my life. So far 45 years and counting......but I knew what I was doing.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Below is the best reason I know for NOT allowing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2urjEixqrzM

"Just a flesh wound."

All joking aside, I believe a big factor is the holster the guy was using. It's hard to tell but it looks like one of those plastic bucket type holsters that retains the gun with a button around the trigger. The problem is you have to release the gun with your trigger finger, and your muscle memory sort of kicks in and grabs the trigger before it is safely pointed down range. This is why I prefer thumb break retention devises and properly fitted leather holsters.

[Lonegun1894]

Not trying to be a smart aleck either but that is exactly the reasoning that I used when I shot myself in the leg with a 22. I know what I am doing. It takes only a fraction of a second to make a mistake. Mine was not knowing that my old Ruger Red Eagle did not have a magazine cutoff and there was one in the chamber.
But I knew what I was doing.
I get to carry the bulet in my leg for the rest of my life. So far 45 years and counting......but I knew what I was doing.


Thank you for sharing that. We have all made mistakes of one form of another, but thankfully most of us don't carry them like you do, so it is always good to hear from someone willing to speak up about a more serious one. And glad it wasn't worse.

[funnyjim014]

In our league we can draw loaded handguns from a holster that points down..Ie hip,leg, or ankle holster. We do not re-holster a loaded weapon. We usually are under time and don't want to have a problem. Gun goes into padded box. Each situation is different

[DerekP Houston]

You know, I honestly had not considered the muzzle sweep from a shoulder holster and I just ordered one. Completely agree with statements above about not trusting the idjits in the stall next to you. Thanks for sharing the info. Not sure if I will actually wear it now, but will definitely take another safety course over at the range before I use it. IWB on right hip has been my standard, muzzle goes from straight down to on target, no issues with sweeping. Goes to show how an honest idjit can make a mistake....

[skeettx]

We have two pistol pits that allow drawing.

15. Special Range Rules: Action Pistol Ranges (Pits)
15.1. Pistols, pistol-caliber carbines, and 22 rimfire rifles and pistols may be used on these ranges to practice practical shooting techniques.
15.1.1. Shotgun use is restricted to matches under the direct supervision of the Match Director.
15.1.2. Centerfire rifle–calibers, such as those used in AK’s, AR’s, SKS’s, Mini 14’s, M1 Carbines, and Model 94’s, are prohibited.
15.2. All bullets must impact the defined impact areas on the north backstops. Don't shoot east or west.
15.3. There is no conventional fixed firing line on these ranges: the firing line is where the designated shooter is standing. The shooter may position themselves any distance from the target up to the 15 or 30 yard maximum available within the pit.
15.4. Only one shooter, the designated shooter, shall be on the firing line at any time.
15.5. When other shooters arrive to use the range, greet them and discuss your joint range use.
15.6. Those not shooting shall act as Safety Officers for the designated shooter.
15.7. Handling pistols behind the firing line is restricted to the designated Safety Zone in the southeast corner of each pit.
15.7.1. Firearms shall not be loaded in the Safety Zone.
15.7.2. Ammunition, dummy rounds, or empty casings are not allowed in the Safety Zone. (Load magazines outside the Safety Zone.)
15.7.3. You may practice draws and dry fire in the Safety Zone. An arrow indicates the safe direction to dry fire.
15.8. Pistols outside the Safety Zone shall be unloaded and holstered with hammer down and, if semiautomatics, magazines removed.
15.9. When finished shooting, return reusable target cardboard to the storage building and target stakes to the storage barrel. Put unusable target cardboard in the trash barrels.

Mike

[Down South]

You know, I honestly had not considered the muzzle sweep from a shoulder holster and I just ordered one. Completely agree with statements above about not trusting the idjits in the stall next to you. Thanks for sharing the info. Not sure if I will actually wear it now, but will definitely take another safety course over at the range before I use it. IWB on right hip has been my standard, muzzle goes from straight down to on target, no issues with sweeping. Goes to show how an honest idjit can make a mistake....

In the cooler months, I wear a Miami Classic holster with a full size 1911. That holster is not allowed on my range so I have to practice with it at home or in the yard.
I've got a big box full of holsters, IWB, OWB, pocket holsters, etc. we all have to go through a lot of holsters before we figure out what works best for us. During the hot summer months here, I carry my little P238 in a Sneaky Pete holster. http://www.sneakypeteholsters.com/sig-p238-sneaky-pete-holster-belt-loop/
I'd love to pack something bigger but it's not comfortable nor easy to conceal, especially if all that I'm wearing is a pair of shorts with a tee shirt.
During the cooler months, I enjoy packing with the Galco Miami Classic. I love the shoulder holster and find it easy to draw from. That includes sitting in a vehicle with a seat belt on to strolling around the mall. I can wear it over a tee shirt with an outer shirt unbuttoned or over an outer shirt with a jacket or coat on.
I can understand most ranges not allowing this holster due to the fact that if I have anybody to my left, me being right handed, I would have to sweep them to draw.
No big deal for me. I practice drawing at home and practice shooting at the range.

[375supermag]

HI...


Yes, my club allows drawing from a holster on the pistol range.

Yes, we have bullet holes in the benches, support beams and roof to prove it.

I see these "mall ninja" types more and more at my club. They all wear some kind of tactical-looking clothing, sunglasses and cut their hair like the just entered boot camp(shaved). Some have full beards, most are clean-shaven) and an attitude that they know everything.

All of them have autoloaders with hi-cap mags (mostly 9mm) and go through 2-3 mags in about 2 minutes flat. None of them can hit anything.

When they show up at the rifle range, they pull out nothing but ARs and hi-cap mags and just blast away at the 200 yard gong off-hand until they run out of ammunition. I see very few hits. They do make a lot of noise and leave a lot of brass laying about.


I showed up one day early in the morning and a couple of them were doing some kind of tactical drill where they walked toward the 50yd targets shooting pretty much non-stop. Totally against club rules(no firing from in front of the benches/firing line). They left their brass scattered in front of the benches all the way to near the 50yd target frames. One of them had a semi-auto handgun (only Pennsylvania legal hunting revolvers allowed on the rifle range at our club)and left his brass (.45)all over the place. After they left I picked up a Folger's 5lb plastic coffee can full of brass that they left laying in front of the firing line. They also left their targets hanging for someone else to remove(not many holes in the targets, either).


I have no problem with semi-auto rifles or hi-cap mags...I have some of my own. But, this "wannabe" attitude is a bit disconcerting.

It is a bit irritating getting pelted with brass non-stop when checking the zero on a hunting rifle or testing handloads. I just wish they could be a bit more considerate of other shooters.

I have found that I can chase them away from the pistol range by shooting full-power handloads out of my .44 and .41Mag revolvers. None of them like full-power 125gr handloads out of .357Mag revolvers, either. I always take a couple hundred rounds of those and one of my long-barreled BlackHawks when I go to the pistol range just to run off the "operators, mall ninjas and wannabes".

I don't hate them...really, I don't. They leave a lot of 9mm brass laying about and I have at times picked up several hundred pieces of brass that they left laying after only a half-hour or so of shooting. I have acquired about 5-6000 pieces of once fired 9mm brass in the last year to process and the "mall ninjas" supplied almost all of it( along with maybe a couple hundred cases of .45Auto and .40S&W). I never picked up 9mm brass(other than my own) until I bought my son his first 9mm about a year ago. Until then I only had two 9mm pistols and didn't shoot more than a couple hundred rounds out of them a year.They seem to have multiplied since then however and the free brass is greatly appreciated.

[missionary5155]

Good Morning 375SM
That was a sad but funny read. Happily our home range in east ILLinois is infested with responsible shooters. Many are ex military, police and hunters. Some are Reserve and active duty. Most are very good with firearms and some shoot very unique calibers. Our club has a $225 "orientation and first year" fee that lessons the desire for "blasters" to even apply.
Our club allows holster draw. But very hard on those who fire rounds that do not hit a bern.
Mike in Peru

[375supermag]

Hi...

Most of our members are responsible and sensible.

I think that the club expanded the membership rolls a little too quickly a few years ago. They have since instituted a background check for those who make it to the top of the waiting list. Hopefully, that will slowly make a difference.

I think some of these "operators" are actually using a friend's or family members membership to gain admittance to the grounds.

Once the card reader at the gate allows admittance nobody is checking if the person with the card is actually a member. Guests are supposed to be signed in and out but nobody has ever questioned the guests I bring. I do stay with and monitor my guests at all times and constantly review the rules and regs, but obviously some either don't know or don't care. The broken clay bird throwers on the shotgun range is proof of that. They get repaired and are broken or parts missing within days. We bought an electric magazine fed claybird thrower just because the spring-loaded ones at the club were always broken. Strange that I had used them hundreds of times over the years until a few years ago when membership was expanded and they always were in good repair and completely functional.

[Lonegun1894]

You know, I honestly had not considered the muzzle sweep from a shoulder holster and I just ordered one. Completely agree with statements above about not trusting the idjits in the stall next to you. Thanks for sharing the info. Not sure if I will actually wear it now, but will definitely take another safety course over at the range before I use it. IWB on right hip has been my standard, muzzle goes from straight down to on target, no issues with sweeping. Goes to show how an honest idjit can make a mistake....

Please don't let these comments stop you from using that shoulder rig as your day to day holster if it is what works for you. I mean, NONE of us is 100% innocent where we have never swept anyone with our muzzles. I mean, I carry OWB strong side, and as was said in another post, it's pointed straight down and then straight to target if needed, but my 1911 spends the vast majority of it's time in a holster (even if I did have 95K rounds fired through it as of 6 months ago). Having said that, there's been times I have gone up to a second, third, etc. floor of a building, and can't tell you 100% that there wasn't anyone on one of the floors below me that got swept with the muzzle of my holstered gun. It has never been a problem, and I don't expect it to become one, but just saying that none of us walk on water. But I personally see a huge difference between that and drawing it repeatedly on a range where we endanger others just for the sake of our practice.

Now if we happen to be sitting in the same restaurant having dinner with our better halves when some criminal opens fire, and your shoulder rig allows you to stop him (preferably without shooting anyone else, if I'm allowed to be picky) before I get a chance to put lead on target, I'm buying your dinner regardless of what kind of holster, gun, ammo, etc. you used. :)

[destrux]

I found that using a CO2 BB version of my pistol is a great way to practice drawing and holster access (while on the ground, knocked down, pressed against wall or object by assailant, etc...) while indoors and without eating into my live fire range time. Airsoft is good for this too.

I don't shy away from practicing from my holster at the range, but I always use proper caution because shooting yourself while practicing is just... stupid. Generally people do that when they either are distracted by other people they're with, or because they've become complacent. You have to practice to avoid both of those too.

[tygar]

I don't know about people today. I've been drawing & shooting live ammo, including SAA quick draw back to the early 60s. Just like everyone else I knew that shot handguns.

We also road bikes, went over jumps, climbed mountains, went hunting, fishing & hiking all day & sometimes for days, without helmets, knee pads, parents & the nanny state saying, "Oh jeez, you can't do that - it's dangerous".

Heh, if your not good enough for live ammo, practice without until you are! You HAVE to practice like it's real or when it's real, you will die!

As for ranges. As I have most always had my own acreage to shoot on, the only indoor range I've used was the Palmer, AK range. Safety was demanded but no restrictions on bringing firearms in or concealed carry etc.

Depending on if they were busy, I would use the end stall & the one next to it & do my combat drill, consisting of drawing & shooting from 1 to 10yds from all the positions I practiced. Front, sidways, back to target, kneeling, on back & turning, shooting to my rear while looking over shoulder, etc. Then targets moving from 0 - 25M, 2 moving targets from 0-25M & back. Single, double, tripple taps, full mags, from holster unloaded, inserting mag, while target either came or went, speed mag change for 2 complete mags fired & on target either coming & going. Plus other stuff I can't remember.

Then teaching some that saw me shooting that the stuff they learned on how to draw & shoot was not the only or best way, etc.

[BD]

"Kind of hard to run action pistol/defense competitions with out drawing from holsters. FIND some new clubs away from the fudds. IMHO"
Pretty much covers it.

I've shot at a dozen or more clubs over the years in five states. Of them, only a pair of indoor ranges didn't allow drawing from a holster, (they were the only game in town). It's a skill that should be learned at home with an empty weapon, but must be practiced at the range to really learn. At a match it's always monitored, "the shooter may load and make ready", and a critique of holstering technique is not uncommon if the RO feels there's some aspect that news to be addressed for safety. IMO re-holstering really is the dangerous part. I've never seen a stage at a match that allowed it. Not saying it doesn't happen, just that I've never seen it happen. It's always "Show clear!" "Hammer down!" "Re-holster" before the "Line is clear!" At the end of the pistol stage of a three gun, the weapon is typically safed and laid on a table or barrel, not re-holstered. Even when I practice by myself, I do not re-holster a loaded weapon until I'm done for the day and heading home, and then I am very conscious of what I'm doing.

[imashooter2]

LAMR almost always includes holstering a loaded gun.

[mjwcaster]

Thanks to everyone who has replied.
It is an interesting thread.
I am an instructor and have places to practice drawing and shooting myself.
It just bothers me that most of the 144k new concealed carriers in IL do not have a place to practice.
Yes holster work is dangerous, I tell my students it is the most dangerous thing they will do with a firearm.
And to practice with an unloaded firearm until proficient.
At the same time, if you are going to carry a loaded handgun you are going to be holstering and un-holstering it, while loaded.
No way around that.
We balance the safety issue by only doing dry holster work in our ccw class, live fire from a holster is an advanced class.
I would love to do live fire from a holster with all my students, but not all are ready.
Our advanced classes are at instructor discretion.
If you cannot keep your finger off the trigger you will not be doing holster work in our class.
And we promote our ccw class as just firearms safety, basic marksmanship, and legal/permitting class.
It is not a defensive shooting class in any way shape or form, although we try to touch on as much as possible.
I have more thoughts on this, will post in another message.

[mjwcaster]

Shoulder holster and muzzle sweeping-
You can draw from a shoulder and not muzzle sweep people, it just takes some thought and training.
We keep things simple and teach the basic 4 step draw.
1. Clear cover garment and get a good grip on the gun.
2. Draw the gun from the holster. That's it, just clear the holster.
3. Rotate the gun onto target (can shoot from here if necessary)
4. Push the gun out to a normal 2 handed hold and acquire sight picture.

This may not be the best, but it is simple and safe if done correctly.

Now for a shoulder holster the issue comes in at step 3.
Natural rotation is to swing the gun 90 degrees, muzzle sweeping people.
How about rotating muzzle down to the ground, turning the gun sights up and then presenting in front of you, as from a low ready position.
Hard to put in writing, easy to demonstrate.
May be slightly slower, but not much with practice.
And the muzzle only points at whatever is directly behind you, then the ground and the directly in front of you.
When I get back to decent internet I will try to find a video to demonstrate.
And if you carry in a vertical shoulder holster it is as quick as the sweep everybody version.

[mjwcaster]

Training issues-
There are compromises that must be made in training, for safety concerns.
One issue I saw mentioned in this thread is scanning for threats and keeping the muzzle down range.
That may not be the best, but do you want to be on the range with people turning around with loaded guns in their hands?
If I was training door kickers who will be stacking up for a forced entry it would be different, with different techniques, which I am not qualified to teach.
So we compromise with the threat scanning.
We also compromise with movement, at least until an even more advanced class
Crawl, walk, run, basics of learning anything.
And I try to explain to the students the compromises we have to make in class.
I tell them that no matter what we teach them someone will find fault with it, and that there may be better ways to do things, we just give them the basics.
OK, I am done for now.
Thanks for all the input and keep it coming.

[Down South]

Hi...

Most of our members are responsible and sensible.

I think that the club expanded the membership rolls a little too quickly a few years ago. They have since instituted a background check for those who make it to the top of the waiting list. Hopefully, that will slowly make a difference.

I think some of these "operators" are actually using a friend's or family members membership to gain admittance to the grounds.

Once the card reader at the gate allows admittance nobody is checking if the person with the card is actually a member. Guests are supposed to be signed in and out but nobody has ever questioned the guests I bring. I do stay with and monitor my guests at all times and constantly review the rules and regs, but obviously some either don't know or don't care. The broken clay bird throwers on the shotgun range is proof of that. They get repaired and are broken or parts missing within days. We bought an electric magazine fed claybird thrower just because the spring-loaded ones at the club were always broken. Strange that I had used them hundreds of times over the years until a few years ago when membership was expanded and they always were in good repair and completely functional.
The range that I am a member of, a member has to wear his membership card in plain view. We have a active RO while the range is open constantly going around the range checking all of the shooting bays and rifle ranges. We are allowed to bring guests and family members but they have to be with the member at all times.
If we as members see someone who doesn't have a current membership card displayed, it is our responsibility to question them and report them if they can't produce an active membership card.
Even if someone follows us through the electronic gate, they have to display their current membership card.
We have to sign and out and what range we will be shooting on and it is checked by the RO. Our RO uses a golf cart to monitor the range. It's a big range and spreads overal several acres. At times we may have more than one RO monitoring the range.
The Skeet, Trap and five stand ranges have a dedicated RO usually called a Key Holder who opens the ranges and stays until he closes those ranges.

[gray wolf]

I am 73 and draw from the holster with my 1911 45 ACP.
My times for draw and fire with a combat accurate hit runs about 1 Sec. to about 1.3 Sec.
I'm still working on it.

Here is a timer you can use at home with no ammo, you set the time, lets say 1.5 Sec.
You get a beep and see if you can beat the timer. NO AMMO PLEASE,

http://dryfirepractice.com/the-timer#

If you can take a step to the side and deliver the round in under 1.5 Sec.
your probably OK for the street. It's the step to one side that will save your bacon.
I tell people don't get all dramatic on me but if you need longer than 1.5 Sec.
You probably should leave the gun home.

Guess what ! they get all dramatic.

I have been shooting at our private range now for quite a few years,
and let me tell you the flat out fools that I meet are only over shadowed by the flat out idiots.

What on this Earth is so hard about:
Keep your dammm finger off the trigger.

Unless something is caught in your holster or your finger is on the trigger it ain't going off.
But some people are just to smart to listen, most now a days wont even give you eye contact when you talk to them.

I feel bad for the people that go to the indoor ranges and want to practice S D type of gun handling.
Standing up at whatever distance shooting at a paper target don't get it, sorry you ain't training to save your life on the street.

I can fully understand why Range owners do not allow anything but simple drama free gun handling.

Your holster MUST stay open when the gun is out, if you can't find the holster in order to re-holster,
Take your thumb off the grip and stick it in the hole. At that point the gun should be pretty darn close to it.

Thing is folks want to show up using a gym sock with belt loops and want to draw from it.

[Love Life]

What on this Earth is so hard about:
Keep your dammm finger off the trigger.


The gospel as handed down from upon high. We got that bad habit hazed out of our systems real quick like.

[Uncle R.]

I am 73 and draw from the holster with my 1911 45 ACP.
My times for draw and fire with a combat accurate hit runs about 1 Sec. to about 1.3 Sec.
I'm still working on it.

Here is a timer you can use at home with no ammo, you set the time, lets say 1.5 Sec.
You get a beep and see if you can beat the timer. NO AMMO PLEASE,

http://dryfirepractice.com/the-timer#

If you can take a step to the side and deliver the round in under 1.5 Sec.
your probably OK for the street. It's the step to one side that will save your bacon.
I tell people don't get all dramatic on me but if you need longer than 1.5 Sec.
You probably should leave the gun home.

Guess what ! they get all dramatic.

I have been shooting at our private range now for quite a few years,
and let me tell you the flat out fools that I meet are only over shadowed by the flat out idiots.

What on this Earth is so hard about:
Keep your dammm finger off the trigger.

Unless something is caught in your holster or your finger is on the trigger it ain't going off.
But some people are just to smart to listen, most now a days wont even give you eye contact when you talk to them.

I feel bad for the people that go to the indoor ranges and want to practice S D type of gun handling.
Standing up at whatever distance shooting at a paper target don't get it, sorry you ain't training to save your life on the street.

I can fully understand why Range owners do not allow anything but simple drama free gun handling.

Your holster MUST stay open when the gun is out, if you can't find the holster in order to re-holster,
Take your thumb off the grip and stick it in the hole. At that point the gun should be pretty darn close to it.

Thing is folks want to show up using a gym sock with belt loops and want to draw from it.


gray wolf:
What a great link for that timer! Thank you.

I liked "gym sock with belt loops" too - nice turn of phrase and I understand what you mean. Still relatively new to CCW here in Wisconsin but I'm practicing and learning. I haven't cheapened out on my holsters, I have good quality carry gear and I believe it really matters. A holster that won't hold its shape makes reholstering problematic or even dangerous.

If you have time, would you expand a little more on your suggestion about a step to the side during the draw? It's something that I haven't considered before and I'd like to know your thoughts and reasoning. The club I have belonged to since - well, almost forever - as well as the indoor ranges in this area don't allow realistic self defense practice. I recently managed to get onto the limited membership rolls of a better club and I've gotten far more practice time in self defense drills since then. I still need to expand and improve my training and I welcome your suggestions.

To answer the OPs question - YES! FINALLY I can draw from the holster on the range at my "new" club.

Uncle R.

[Lonegun1894]

Uncle R,
The idea is that your opponent is often so focused on you, or rather your position, and so fully expects you to stand there and be a sheep instead of acting and defending yourself, that a lot of them will usually shoot where you USED TO BE instead of where you moved to. You're just getting out of the way is all you're doing. I have been told by some trainers that it is often a good idea to step to your left since it will mean that you moved to your opponents right, with the theory that it is harder for most people (90%) are right handed and most are untrained so it is harder for them to keep the muzzle on you and shoot you when you are moving to their "outside". Now that means that you will be presenting an easier shot to the 10% of lefties out there, but it still won't be as easy as if you had just stood there and acted like the paper target that almost everyone trains to defend themselves from when they stand still.

Personally, I don't go by the always go left, or always go right , or anything else, but rather just move so you aren't where they want you to be, and hopefully toward cover (not concealment) and while putting hits on target.

[gray wolf]

If you have time, would you expand a little more on your suggestion about a step to the side during the draw?


Sir I would be happy to:
As good law keeping folks we don't walk around pulling our gun and shooting people.
But when we do, as in a life threatening situation it's because someone has presented something to us that represents a deadly threat.
If it happens at bad breath distance ( arms length or closer the tactic is different ) So lets take this from 1 yard to lets say 10 yards.
Also lets keep in mind that most critical situations take place at contact distance to about the length of a normal size vehicle.

So that leaves us to react to the action being played out against us. Very important to remember is that reaction is always slower than
action, no way around that. So as the saying goes we have to get off the X. X is the place the bombs fall on, the rockets fly to,
and the place the bullets are aimed at. When we take a big step to one side and draw, we are now off the X
What this does is buy,s us a small amount of time, remember fractions count. The B G,s brain is still seeing us on the X, when me move it takes his brain a small amount of time to process that we are no longer in that spot. We have turned the tables, and now it's advantage good guy,
he must now react to our action.

Any trainer worth his salt will teach that, and if done correctly can save your life a large % of the time.
It's OK to start out with the practice like this, Full grip on the pistol and don't draw till the step to the side is complete and your footing is solid.
At that instant the pistol comes out and goes on target. As you practice and get comfortable with the move you can speed up the draw,
to say you can draw mid step. Thing is you don't want to be off balance, or loose your footing with the gun out of the holster.

It all comes down to practice. I got a new holster the beginning of last summer and probably have at least 2,000 draw strokes on it.
The draw needs to be with a full combat grip, no time to re-arrange your hand mid draw.

I hope I explained it well enough.

[mjwcaster]

Great video that touches on this-
https://youtu.be/Q-lDtCHFmvg
Surviving edged weapons.

OK great discussion of the subject matter, horrible 80/90's video.
Search for it, really worth watching.
Covers action/reaction, movement and reacquisition.
Also shuffle over, don't take normal steps, too easy to step on or into something and fall.

Thanks for bringing up a great point.
There is so much more to defensive shooting than just standing there hitting a target.

[Uncle R.]

Thanks Guys!
I'm learning again.
That's what makes this place so great...

Uncle R.

[gray wolf]

Internet advise is great and not so great, It's good because we get interesting comments on how to do things,
It's not so great because personnel opinions get added that may and sometimes does, override sound proven training methods.
Often it leaves the OP more confused than he was before the question was asked --- and he winds up choosing what makes him feel comfortable
instead of whats correct as for the basic sound foundation. It's from that foundation that we build from and make subtle changes.

Having an attitude right out of the gate of, I don't like to do that, or
I can do it better, or hold me beer and watch this, simple muddies the training waters. Many thing we learn in firearms training are transitional things. What do I mean by that ? A transitional move is a move that sets us up correctly for another move that may be needed.
So to compromise the first move can be detrimental to a follow up move that may be needed in order to continue the fight and go home.

When I say get off the X and move to one side, be it left or right I don't care what the direction is as long as you move,
You may not have time for your brain to figure out: his left, my left, Oh ! I forgot it's backwards when I am looking at someone.

Sure it can be done if you put hours of training in and most people do not until they start to realize what they don't know.

Baby steps to the right or left is not what's needed, Or a small shuffle, why ? simply because it's to easy to track and follow.

Let me present a video of some Russian body guard training. It's not in English and it does not matter, it's all visual if you no what your looking at. It shows someone walking with another person, it shows it in many different ways that are very easy to understand and comprehend.

It could be a friend, a love one, or a bystander, or in this case a client.

Many attempts are made to evade the shooter and protect the other person while protecting himself and surviving the encounter.

Notice the only time he is successful is when he moves the other person and moves himself.

You don't even need the sound turned up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCCRKqdtb2Y

Keep in mind this is one little aspect of CCW and look at all the ink we have given it.
Does this make a light bulb go off and tell you this is serious stuff, and we/you need to train till we don't get it wrong.

Keep in mind, we don't rise to the occasion,
we revert back to the level of training we have mastered..

[Uncle R.]

I am probably past the age of serious athletic response to a threat as shown in some of the bodyguard videos, but moving off the X is certainly something I should be practicing when I drill with my carry guns.

The only "principal" I'd be likely to be protecting is my spouse. It's unlikely I could bring myself to push her away from me even though it might make sense from a tactical viewpoint. On the few occasions when I spotted or suspected potential danger my instinct was to get her behind me and that's what I strove to do. I suspect that's what I would do again under stress.

Excellent links, excellent information.
Again, thank you!

Uncle R.

[gray wolf]

Sorry you missed the point, I guess in an effort to show something It got to confusing.

The point was not to focus on the fact there was someone else involved, but simply to show how he moved to the side.

[Lonegun1894]

I am probably past the age of serious athletic response to a threat as shown in some of the bodyguard videos, but moving off the X is certainly something I should be practicing when I drill with my carry guns.

The only "principal" I'd be likely to be protecting is my spouse. It's unlikely I could bring myself to push her away from me even though it might make sense from a tactical viewpoint. On the few occasions when I spotted or suspected potential danger my instinct was to get her behind me and that's what I strove to do. I suspect that's what I would do again under stress.

Excellent links, excellent information.
Again, thank you!

Uncle R.

I don't know how old or unathletic you and your wife are, but my girlfriend and I are both in our 30s. We both carry, and we also have a few hand gestures we use to communicate to each other that a possible threat has been spotted, so if there is time to we split up and make them choose which of us to deal with first from two different directions--which also forces them to have to defend themselves from two different directions. Just remember that you and your wife and your attacker need to form the three points of a triangle if you do this, so you don't shoot each other if you miss or get a pass through. So do NOT get on opposite sides of the turd. So far, the few times anyone wanted to press the issue, they always faced me, which means if nothing else, she was out of the line of fire if it had gotten that far. And in your case, even if you do have to push her, I'd much rather apologize for a scraped knee than for pulling her INTO the line of fire next to me.

But in the end, every situation is different, and if possible, get her to train with you, or at least discuss situations ahead of time and form a plan so if or when something happens, the plan is in place and just has to be executed instead of you having to ask the turd for a time out while you two discuss the best course of action. Think of it as playing a "what-if-game" as you go through life. What if someone jumps out from behind a car and attacks you as you two are walking through the grocery store parking lot? What if someone decides to rob the gas station while you're in there getting some gas and a cup of coffee on your way to work? etc. etc. You get the idea. Just remember that no plan is perfect, and everything constantly changes. That goes both for your plans, and your attackers plans. And your ultimate responsibility at the end of the day is to protect yourself and your wife. Everything else is negotiable to one level or another.

[Uncle R.]

Sorry you missed the point, I guess in an effort to show something It got to confusing.

The point was not to focus on the fact there was someone else involved, but simply to show how he moved to the side.

No, no - you made your point very well. Your initial comment along with the links and the videos got me to understand the importance of movement and for that I thank you! The video was very effective and showed the kind of "hard move to the side" that might really save your life. It's something that I need to incorporate in my practice drills. Up till now I probably would have been one of those guys who stands on the X and waits for the bullet as he draws. I can see how foolish that sounds but it's just something that I never really thought about, and that's the way I've usually had to do it in IPSC matches and in range shooting.

The bodyguard thing was just something else to consider and as I watched the videos I got to thinking about those kinds of scenarios in addition to being attacked when alone - not instead of being attacked when alone.


I don't know how old or unathletic you and your wife are, but my girlfriend and I are both in our 30s.
<snip>
So far, the few times anyone wanted to press the issue, they always faced me, which means if nothing else, she was out of the line of fire if it had gotten that far. And in your case, even if you do have to push her, I'd much rather apologize for a scraped knee than for pulling her INTO the line of fire next to me.

But in the end, every situation is different, and if possible, get her to train with you...
<snip>
And your ultimate responsibility at the end of the day is to protect yourself and your wife. Everything else is negotiable to one level or another.

I'm young enough that I can still move fairly fast, but old enough that it might hurt if I do.

I can see why it could well make sense to push her away, especially if the attacker is focused on me. It's just that watching the videos I realized that in those couple of situations when I expected things to get ugly I was moving but with the objective of getting in front of her to try to shield her from the danger. That was instinctive, done without conscious thought. My comments were just trying to say that it would likely take a lot of training for me to act differently under stress, to push her away.

My wife doesn't have a carry permit, and I am hesitant to encourage her to get one. I love her dearly but I must admit she's sometimes a little scatter-brained and it's not hard to foresee problems if she were to carry daily. Worse, she's a chronic condition white person to the point that she considers MY carrying silly and unnecessary. I've suggested professional training but got a firm refusal. As the situation stands if the ball were to drop the task would be mine alone. I don't see that changing any time soon.

Thanks again for the thoughts, the videos and opinions. I hate to sound like such a newbie. The actual shooting isn't the problem. I've put tens (Hundreds?) of thousands of rounds downrange over the years. I "played IPSC" and I shot in bullseye leagues and pin matches. I shot IHMSA back when it was new and won boxes full of trophies over the years. All are good training for target shooting or even hunting, and all fall short as training to survive.

Wisconsin only first allowed CCW a couple of years ago and my experience and knowledge in this area is limited. I'm trying to learn as much as I can. I really do appreciate the advice.

Uncle R.

[Down South]

My better half appreciates me carrying but she has no clue to what's going on around her. I'd have to push her to the left or right depending on which side I am standing beside her then go to the other side. I have drilled this in my mind a number of times. My hope is, it never happens.

[Love Life]

Safe firearms handling being the important part of what you quoted. People who shoot themselves were not practicing safe firearms handling.

[pretzelxx]

The public area assumes no responsibility, that one yes. The two private ones that I go to do not. Too much liability. That fresh gun owner that sees all the movies doesn't understand drawing with your finger on the trigger can kill you!

[Love Life]

Doing anything ('cept engaging threats and paper of course) with the finger on the trigger can kill you, lol.

[mikeingeorgia]

I go to one range in particular because of the matches that are held there. Drawing from a holster is required if you're shooting a center-fire handgun ( although they will make exceptions for newbies by letting them start from the low ready position). Like was said earlier, keeping your finger off of the trigger is the best method of safety you can observe. My grip is derived by three fingers and a thumb. The trigger finger normally will be resting on a spot on the frame, so I always have a reference in my mind of exactly where it's touching. My main focus when I'm practicing drawing, is to bring my hand down and acquire the proper grip prior to starting the draw. This is so there's no need to adjust it after it's drawn. The next step is a clean, straight out of the holster draw up to about mid-rib height, rotate, then straight out. As it's being pushed straight out, it's met by the other hand, which has been waiting patiently out of the way near the point of the ribs that's it's coming to. By minimizing unnecessary movements, it cuts down on the time. It can be practiced slowly however many times it takes. When the shooting step is over, then it's a matter of reloading, then putting it back into the holster in reverse order from which it was drawn. I don't shoot in matches in Hollywood, so there's nothing really dramatic or flamboyant about it, just the steps actually necessary.

[Love Life]

Keep in mind, we don't rise to the occasion,
we revert back to the level of training we have mastered..

More gospel.

[skeettx]

Thread DRIFT
Who out there practices drawing and shooting their CCW at a public/member range?
We do.

[BD]

What is LAMR?

[imashooter2]

What is LAMR?

A range command at many shooting games... Load And Make Ready.

[Butzbach]

PA is that bad. Take a semiauto hunting and see what happens.

[mjwcaster]

Just to clarify, when I said shuffle earlier, I didn't mean a slow shuffle.
Fast movement, just not picking up the feet too much.
Just like we were taught (at least me), in basketball.
To keep from getting caught up in your own feet.
Try it sometime, most of us are out of practice, as we haven't done much/any sideways movement since playing ball.

And it depends on circumstances, if there is cover available, the best move may be to run towards it as fast as you can.
All I know for sure is, the more I learn about true defensive shooting, the more I realize I don't know.

Some simunition training is on my wish list.

[fouronesix]

After thinking about it, the original question seems more and more ridiculous on its face. At the outdoor NRA affiliated club range I use, there is no restriction as to "drawing from the holster" anymore than there is for drawing from your gun case or from your panties. Nor at my house, nor out my back door where I can shoot when I want to.

There are all kinds of restrictions on what is allowed including "NO drawing from the holster" at the closest private indoor range- an insurance and liability thing I guess.

Taken much farther, the whole question may lead to something like- "is shooting a loaded gun allowed"? Before long we'll be dumbed down to the point of thinking it normal... like Barney Fife having to ask Andy for a "bullet".

[BD]

Aha, You are correct in that "load and make ready" generally requires the holstering of a loaded gun. However, it has just been loaded and is being re-holstered carefully off the clock, and under the (hopefully) watchful gaze of the RO. I believe that this situation may be the most carefully monitored instance of holstering a loaded gun. I cannot think of a stage that has required the re-holstering of a loaded gun once the timer is running and the pressure is on.

[gray wolf]

Well Donald Trump say's get out and vote----
I say get out and learn to draw from a holster.

Dynamic critical situations are not training exercises, they are strictly ** COME AS YOU ARE **

You owe it to yourself and family to know what the hellll your doing on the street and in your home.

Survivor [smilie=s:[smilie=s: // victim :cry: :cry: