Can you anneal too frequently?

[rosewood]

If I take a piece of brass that has been annealed and is the ideal tension and I take a piece that is worked and hardened, then I treat them both to the correct temperature, will they result in the same tension? Or will one be softer than the other? If they do result in different softness, how would you go about insuring they are the same if you have mixed brass with unknown number of reloads?

Thanks,

Rosewood

[5Shot]

The same, assuming same Lot of brass. The annealed state is square one and it only gets harder from sizing and firing. I don't think you can anneal to much, but soft, annealed necks may need a firing or two in order to have sufficient tension.

[Mk42gunner]

I have read of BPCR shooters that anneal their brass for match loads every time. IIRC they run the freshly annealed case into a sizing die and neck expander twice to get the desired neck tension.

Way more annealing than I want to do, but it worked for his loads.

Robert

[reed1911]

Yes, you can anneal them too much. There is a significant difference between annealed for our use (as shooters) and 'dead soft'. The frequency is not relevant, the temp is the key. If you take brass of composition "X" and anneal it to temp "Y"; regardless of how much work hardening had occurred previously, they will be the same. However, if you anneal at too high a temp you will destroy the tension to the point that it will take sufficient work to bring it back up to snuff for our use. This is the reason that it is always recommended that you use some type of temp monitor on brass; for the general shooter templaq is wonderful. It is a wax that will melt at a certain temp and can be purchased for various temps. It comes in crayon form and will last a very long time. The other way would be to use your casting pot with thermometer, however it is hard to gauge the temp of the brass that way.

[rosewood]

If you take brass of composition "X" and anneal it to temp "Y"; regardless of how much work hardening had occurred previously, they will be the same.

This is exactly what I was asking. Thanks!



However, if you anneal at too high a temp you will destroy the tension to the point that it will take sufficient work to bring it back up to snuff for our use.


I had also wondered about this. Guess if you over anneal the neck, you can run through expander, then resize a few times until the tension gets up high enough then anneal to the correct temp to get where it needs to be.

Thanks,

Rosewood

[rosewood]

One other question. Is there some way you can test brass to see if it needs to be annealed? Certain amount of flex on the case mouth you can detect to determine if it needs annealing? Squeezing with pliers? I usually realize they need annealing when it takes extra force to seat a bullet, but then it is too late unless I want to pull it.

Thanks,

Rosewood

[CastingFool]

When I was taking a metallurgy class in college, we did one lab experiment work hardening and then annealing copper. We also prepared samples of copper during the process to compare the changes in grain structure and hardness. IIRC, work hardening resulted in small grain sizes that were mostly aligned. Annealing yielded larger grain sizes but still aligned.

[country gent]

I anneal every other firing on my BPCR rounds to maintain consistancy and keep the spring and memory down. As stated above annealing to temp XXX for time XX:xx results in consistant tension and memory. The trick is maintining consistant temp and time. Used to be stand cases in water heat to dull red blue color change and tip over. Now some use a holder in a drill spinning case in flame to dull blue and either quench or allow to cool. Also there are machines that maintain time in the flames and a set flame temp dropping into water or cooling tub. Some use a lead pot with lead set to TempXXX and dip cases into it for XX count and cool quench. I have a dedicted lyman mag dipper full of fine silica sand and a rack I use bring sand up to 750*-800* ( I ussually let heat for 1 - 1 1/2 Hours preheating) set cases in rack and allow to soak whhile ring is filled the remove one replace around ring. This give a very consistant temp control and with a easy pace good time control.Cases come out with little color change since theres no available oxegon to cause it. If using the lead pot and lead a light coat of high temp opil helps keep lead from soldering to brass cases.

[Doc Highwall]

Check out this video about annealing brass, I think it is very informative.
I have one on order and it is supposed to be shipped right after the shot show next week.

http://www.ampannealing.com/

[M-Tecs]

Check out this video about annealing brass, I think it is very informative.
I have one on order and it is supposed to be shipped right after the shot show next week.

http://www.ampannealing.com/

Very interesting and I though my Bench Source was the cat meow. http://bench-source.com/id81.html

[Doc Highwall]

M-Tecs, I already own a Bench Source myself and for a unit that uses a torch flame I think it is the best.

[M-Tecs]

We could always add one of these http://www.fluxeon.com/buyflux/index.php?route=product/product&path=64&product_id=66

[user55645]

Check out this video about annealing brass, I think it is very informative.
I have one on order and it is supposed to be shipped right after the shot show next week.

http://www.ampannealing.com/
That thing is serious business. The amount of pilots kind of turns me off, though. I wonder if they thought about a micrometer type sleeve that would work for all size cases.

[Doc Highwall]

The thing about the sleeves is there is nothing to get out of wack, or for somebody to misread a micrometer. As you can see from the video changing calibers takes about a whole minute.

[jimofaz]

+1 on the Bench Source Annealer.

No affiliation, & kinda pricey for the occasional user, but gosh, I sure do love mine. Got it originally for match-prep case duty BPCR Creedmoor shootin' out to 1000 yards. It is amazing what controlling the variance in neck tension will do to make for single-digit MV std. deviations. Much less vertical stringing out at the targets. Neatest remembrance from those days (daze?) was being able to fire a shot then take your time to lean over & watch the bullet getting to the target (or not!;-)) waay out there thru my 27LER 80mm Kowa spotting scope set-up just to my left. Could not see the bullet holes, but the pit crew takes care of that with the spotter disk.

http://bench-source.com/id81.html

Jim

[5Shot]

For what you get with the AMP, $995 seems like a decent price. Way over my budget, but a lot of thought went into that thing, and I am sure it is awesome for those who need it.

[Doc Highwall]

:DMy order for the AMP unit is complete and they are supposed to be shipped this Friday to the U.S., I am waiting for the delivery man now!:D

[jmorris]

You can anneal too much, like anneal the entire case, for example or apply too much heat or "enough" heat for too long.

That said if your setup is right, you can run the same case through as many times as you want, as long as you let it cool between passes and you won't hurt it a bit.

[Good Cheer]

Too much? Yeah, sooner or later you can create the case that won't hold a bullet.
:groner:

[Hickory]

Too much? Yeah, sooner or later you can create the case that won't hold a bullet.
:groner:

Too much heat and/or for too long will cook off the zinc in the cartridge case and it will loose its ability to spring back.