Tale of the 44 SBH: the bitter and the sweet

[CTone03]

Good evening, folks!

I wanted to give my thanks to you all for the information in this forum. I have read here for years and now I am a new member. I thought I would share my recent experience with a problematic gun and how I have made some headway (thanks to so much data y'all have given).

I inherited the SBH from my dad when he died last year. He got it new in '91; I hunted with and shot it a bit when I was younger. It was never accurate. When I got ahold of it I literally had a time keeping a cylinder of rounds on a sheet of printer paper at 7 yds. I've never been drawn to single action revolvers, but I was determined to make this gun shoot at least serviceably so my family could shoot it too. Now I have been bitten by the single action bug and it's pretty much the only gun I shoot now, and the only gun I hunt with. I intent to kill every furry faced critter on the planet with it.

I cast for other stuff, but I started out with jacketed bullets for a starting load for this one as I figured it would be more forgiving. I picked the 240 gr XTP because in my experience XTPs shoot inside of any other handgun bullet I've ever tried. I picked H110 and after some load development it shoots ridiculously tight. My only issue (an enduring one with most loads I've tried) is that velocity is lower than it should be; and of all commonly known accuracy loads (such as the 240 XTP), I am half a grain over what everyone else suggests. I'm not chasing velocity; I am looking for accuracy, but I've had bullets shoot waaay slower than anticipated, to the point where Quickload is telling me I should be much higher. This XTP load is 24.5 gr of H110, and my velocity is 1,380 with a 7.5" barrel. That's not too bad, but with other loads it gets worse.

Next I tried the Lee TL430-240-SWC. At first my groups looked like buckshot at 25 yds with H110 and IMR 4227, but after study here I learned about barrel restrictions, firelapping, beagling, slugging the barrel/throats, and how to wallow out a mold to make bigger bullets. I firelapped the barrel (there was lots of restriction at the forcing cone) and opened up the mold to .433 to match the throats. I learned later that while the throats measured between .4330 and .4336, with lube I needed to size to .432 for a perfect fit. The gun is now grouping with these loads using 2400 powder, and showing promise, but I think I need to back the velocity down to around 1,100 with these bullets. Is this what y'all have experienced with this bullet? That they work better at lower velocity? They've been taken to just over 1,400 with 20 gr of 2400, and accuracy wasn't there. 18 grains looked better, so I'm thinking of dropping down to 17 gr and working to 18. Lube is 45/45/10.

Next is the 310 gr Lee using Hornady GC. I hear lots of folks have success with 21-21.5 gr of H110; I've worked up higher than that, and clearly 22 grains is the winner. I've tried different lots of powder and standard/magnum primers; magnum being the winner; and velocity is 1,290. I had to size them down to .432 also, as they wouldn't consistently chamber; and some of them chambered very tight (when sized at .433). At times one or two rounds in the cylinder would give a very consistent 1,425 fps, and I believe they were the tight chambering rounds. Sized to .432 the chambering/velocity problems have gone away. They're also slathered in 45/45/10, but I have a batch of Ben's Red cooling in the garage, and I'm going to see the difference it makes. I can tell you that this bullet at 1,290 will penetrate a 55 gal plastic drum packed with wet dirt at 25 yds, which is amazing to me!

Last is the 210 Gold Dot. I've tried H110 up to 27.5 gr and 2400 up to 23 gr, and found 1,476 and 1,384 respectively. They shot very tight (within 1 1/2"), but there's no point in using them at a lower velocity than the 240 XTP. I did have promising results with the 240 gr Gold Dot with 24 gr of H4227 (a can I had lying around; 1,372 fps). Ultimately I'd like to blast some coyotes with the 210s; but if the velocity is not there, I might as well use the 240s.

The next step is to buy a Lyman 429421 mold and do the midweight bullets proper. They will be coated in a delicious red sauce; which, by the way, I don't know who's crazier: me, for cooking auto lubricants in my garage; or Ben, who somehow thought of that recipe. Either way, thank you, Ben!

Again, thank you all for freely giving so much information! I sincerely appreciate your time!

Respectfully,

CTone

[Mal Paso]

The next step is to buy a Lyman 429421 mold and do the midweight bullets proper.


Lyman doesn't do .432". NOE has a 429421. Just Looked, Whoa, they have .432", .434", Brass, Aluminum. You'll go nutz. This gets you to .432 bullets 429421 is a few pages in. http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=37

[CTone03]

I'm going to have to give one of those a try. For simplicity's sake, it sure would be nice to just cast without any sort of voodoo.

Thanks!

[Blackwater]

Sounds like you're on the right track, and I don't know what data you're looking at, but check out the barrel length of the test guns they used. Often, they're not ported to simulate the barrel/cylinder gap of revolvers. A 7.5" Contender barrel, for instance, will always show higher velocities than a revolver. That barrel/cylinder gap is also why revolvers can't be effectively silenced with suppressors, BTW. Your velocities appear to be about exactly what you'd expect form a gun like yours, and are in no way lower than what most others are getting from theirs.

And that Keith bullet is a favorite of mine, but there aren't any "magic" bullets. It's just a darn good bullet design that will cover a pretty wide range of performance options, near and far. I doubt you'll be disappointed with it, and BTW, welcome to the forum. You're right about there being a lot of awfully knowledgeable folks here, and awfully great ones to boot. Glad you've joined in. You sound like someone who'll be an asset here.

[CTone03]

Thank you. I hope to be.

The 240s and 310s are good to go as far as I'm concerned, but the 210s seem weird to me being almost 200 fps behind book loads, online data, and Quickload. One day I want to cast 180-200 grain plinking loads, unless I find an unlimited supply of lead.

[DougGuy]

You may want to think about sending the cylinder and having the cylinder throats reamed and lapped to an even .4325" for all throats which should be about perfect for boolits sized to .432"

If you can chamber a .432" in some throats but not in others, your cylinder is typical of Ruger in that it likely has 3 pairs of throats, each pair a different size than the adjacent pairs. Ruger cylinders are notorious for uneven throats, and uneven throats will make one shoot all over the place because pressures are vastly different and point of impact is drastically affected by changes in pressure.

Ruger used to gang ream cylinders on a Hitachi machine with 3 cutters. It reamed 3 throats, then indexed over one hole and reamed the other 3. As the cutters wore, they cut smaller and smaller holes. When Ruger replaced them, they only replaced the worst one, as the others still had some life left in them. Now, you have a new cutter that will make pretty much .432" or larger throats, and two worn cutters reaming throats in the same cylinder. You can imagine there are a LOT of variation in throat sizes, and they did tens of thousands of cylinders the same way. It is not uncommon to see one cylinder with a pair of .432" throats, a pair of .430" and a pair of .429" throats.

The single most important thing about a cylinder, is to get the throats all sized evenly. You can always size just under throat diameter.

Edit: I use the 310 in my 7 1/2" SBH cast soft in 50/50+2% air dropped, lubed with Felix lube, sized .432" for a perfect fit in .4325" throats, I crimp in the bottom groove over 17.0gr H2400 for right at 1200fps. This is a really good velocity for THIS particular boolit, cast in soft alloy, with soft lube, I get really good accuracy, NO leading, a black bore and a lube star at the muzzle. For a Ruger to shoot cast, I couldn't dream of it getting any better. This is not a maxed out load, it's probably 85% ~ 90% of what it's capabilities are in this gun, but it is all you or I need for deer, bear, or hog in the lower 48.

[35remington]

I view the idea of propelling a 310 at 1425 fps with considerable alarm in a conventional .44, even if it is a Blackhawk, as that is in excess of what longer test barrels obtain (longer than your barrel) and you shouldn't be exceeding those. I would suggest the 1290 fps range as more prudent. Nothing will notice the 135 fps differential, but your gun may appreciate it.

[GaryN]

The 429421 is a good bullet. As said above Lyman doesn't do .432. With that bullet I like 8.5 unique or 15.5 bluedot. They are both very accurate.

[44man]

Several things, the SBH and SRH prefer 296 over H110---YEAH, YEAH same powder but you have found H110 needs 1/2 gr more due to the production burn rate Hodgdon uses.
The 240 XTP needs 24 gr of 296 and the Lee 310 wants 21.5. The Hornady 240 SIL bullet wants 23.5 gr.
NEXT, dump magnum primers and go to the Fed 150. That alone will reduce groups by 2/3's.
Then toss the hammer spring in the field and replace it with a 26# Wolfe variable.
Follow me and you should get less then 1" at 50 yards with XTP's.
If you shoot Keith boolits, make them HARD, like 28 to 30 BHN hard. The shoulder can not steer the cylinder if soft. It smudges off.
DougGuy has great advise.
I have NEVER made a SBH or SRH shoot with H110 and have never made the standard RH shoot with 296. For some crazy reason the RH loves H110. 60 years with the .44 has been a learning experience.
I would also suggest Hornady dies for accuracy. Fed 150 for ALL powder.
Do not use any 4227 in the .44, velocity will jump with any gun heat. 6 shots is too much for it.

[CTone03]

44man,

I am a bit of a primer connoisseur, but I do not have the Fed 150; what I do have is the GM155M. Will those work? Wait, the "M" makes them a magnum, right? I will look for 150s, as well as 296.

I have not tried the Wolfe spring, but I'll check them out. They shouldn't cost much. I have lifted off one side of the hammer spring and it helped; but I also appreciate a better trigger break.

DougGuy,

I slugged the cylinder with lead from fishing weights as I do not have a set of pin gauges. I feel that this is ballpark and not precise; however, for what it's worth, the throats read: .4336 for 3; .4334, .4333, and .4330. The TL-240-SWC and Lee 310s measure .4325 with 45/45/10 or Ben's Red on the 310s. The 310s barely drop thru the throats or with a bump from my finger; the 240s all need light pressure to get them to go thru. I get minor leading with the 240s and traces with the 310s.

I wouldn't mind backing off the 310 load, as there's nothing on this continent that requires absolute velocity from that bullet. I'm going to review my data to see where I was at in the 1,200 fps range, and then I'll try the 296 to see what happens.

GaryN,

I have lots of Unique on hand and have tried 10 gr loads with the 240 SWC. While I didn't have great results, I think it's because that bullet doesn't do well over 1,100 fps (so I've heard), which is why I want to switch to the 429421.

[44man]

44man,

I am a bit of a primer connoisseur, but I do not have the Fed 150; what I do have is the GM155M. Will those work? Wait, the "M" makes them a magnum, right? I will look for 150s, as well as 296.

I have not tried the Wolfe spring, but I'll check them out. They shouldn't cost much. I have lifted off one side of the hammer spring and it helped; but I also appreciate a better trigger break.

DougGuy,

I slugged the cylinder with lead from fishing weights as I do not have a set of pin gauges. I feel that this is ballpark and not precise; however, for what it's worth, the throats read: .4336 for 3; .4334, .4333, and .4330. The TL-240-SWC and Lee 310s measure .4325 with 45/45/10 or Ben's Red on the 310s. The 310s barely drop thru the throats or with a bump from my finger; the 240s all need light pressure to get them to go thru. I get minor leading with the 240s and traces with the 310s.

I wouldn't mind backing off the 310 load, as there's nothing on this continent that requires absolute velocity from that bullet. I'm going to review my data to see where I was at in the 1,200 fps range, and then I'll try the 296 to see what happens.

GaryN,

I have lots of Unique on hand and have tried 10 gr loads with the 240 SWC. While I didn't have great results, I think it's because that bullet doesn't do well over 1,100 fps (so I've heard), which is why I want to switch to the 429421.
You lifted the trigger spring leg, it does work as does reforming it. The heavier hammer spring will not change pull. Mine is 1-1/2# on my SBH. The secret is impact to the primer that must be hard enough. I changed Ruger hammer springs every year shooting IHMSA as soon as accuracy dropped, bought them by the dozen because they take a set. Then I found Wolfe springs.
You can use a CCI 300 too. The problem with a mag primer is they will bump out a boolit before good ignition, changing airspace and pressures from shot to shot.
One of the most important things with a revolver of any caliber is even case tension on the bullet/boolit.
I can measure seating pressure and sort rounds. The difference from light to tight can be 10" on paper. Each will group if kept together, don't mix. POI will need different sight settings. It is why some die sets fail.
Many still think crimp will solve it, not so, does little or nothing to aid burn so don't crimp too hard, just enough to hold under recoil.
Stay away from junk, "M" expanders, FCD's and all the other failures. Use a tough enough boolit to withstand tension.
The .44 is great and will come in for you.

[DougGuy]

DougGuy,

I slugged the cylinder with lead from fishing weights as I do not have a set of pin gauges. I feel that this is ballpark and not precise; however, for what it's worth, the throats read: .4336 for 3; .4334, .4333, and .4330. The TL-240-SWC and Lee 310s measure .4325 with 45/45/10 or Ben's Red on the 310s. The 310s barely drop thru the throats or with a bump from my finger; the 240s all need light pressure to get them to go thru. I get minor leading with the 240s and traces with the 310s.

If they are going through all 6 throats with a light drag, that's exactly what you want them to do and you should be good to go. You can use a boolit for a pin gage as long as you are comparing throat to throat to see if it fits tighter or looser, a boolit does this quite well. In fact, it doesn't even matter what mathematical dimension the throat OR the boolit is, all that is, is a number we can use as a reference. What matters the most, is how EVEN the throats are to each other, AND that the boolit goes through the throats with a fairly close fit and you can answer those two questions without -any- tools other than the boolit in one hand and the cylinder in the other.

[44man]

If they are going through all 6 throats with a light drag, that's exactly what you want them to do and you should be good to go. You can use a boolit for a pin gage as long as you are comparing throat to throat to see if it fits tighter or looser, a boolit does this quite well. In fact, it doesn't even matter what mathematical dimension the throat OR the boolit is, all that is, is a number we can use as a reference. What matters the most, is how EVEN the throats are to each other, AND that the boolit goes through the throats with a fairly close fit and you can answer those two questions without -any- tools other than the boolit in one hand and the cylinder in the other.
There you are! I can't add anything to this at all.
You are in good hands.
In the history of the net, I am the most hated person ever and will go against every gun writer with "What the heck are you talking about?" I have been booted and warned everywhere, even here. Yes, I am a bastard in the first degree but I see knowledge that you need. I just turned 78, do not fool with me!
If you think spending $2500 or more will make you shoot better then with a Ruger, you are nuts and DougGuy can fix you up.156269My boolit. Hey 200 yards from my SBH. Who can do this at 7 yards?

[CTone03]

There you are! I can't add anything to this at all.
You are in good hands.
In the history of the net, I am the most hated person ever and will go against every gun writer with "What the heck are you talking about?" I have been booted and warned everywhere, even here. Yes, I am a bastard in the first degree but I see knowledge that you need. I just turned 78, do not fool with me!
If you think spending $2500 or more will make you shoot better then with a Ruger, you are nuts and DougGuy can fix you up.156269My boolit. Hey 200 yards from my SBH. Who can do this at 7 yards?

Holy smokes! That's what I'm looking for!

44man, I respect my elders and am always a student. Thank you much! I'll post back when I get some more shooting done.

[CTone03]

If they are going through all 6 throats with a light drag, that's exactly what you want them to do and you should be good to go. You can use a boolit for a pin gage as long as you are comparing throat to throat to see if it fits tighter or looser, a boolit does this quite well. In fact, it doesn't even matter what mathematical dimension the throat OR the boolit is, all that is, is a number we can use as a reference. What matters the most, is how EVEN the throats are to each other, AND that the boolit goes through the throats with a fairly close fit and you can answer those two questions without -any- tools other than the boolit in one hand and the cylinder in the other.

DougGuy,

That sounds right! I started out sizing to .433 but I couldn't push them through the throats. Now everything seems good to go. I'll mess around with the 240s again with 2400 and Unique to find a softer shooting load, and eventually will try the 429421 now that I can put some decent lube on them. The 310s are ready to load, but now I need a new chrono; during the last range outing it would only give errors, and I may have dropped my last shot a little bit too much. . . .

Man, this stuff is fun!

[44man]

I use one lube for most--Felix but MML and Satan's works. So does LBT Soft Blue. Lube testing is as important as any other tests. You would not believe!156270 This from a Marlin at 50 yards, just a lube change. LBT Hard Blue left and Felix on the right.
Yes, my friend I do not pull your leg. I refuse to use Alox in any form.
Nothing gets past me and if anyone says something I will test. Mostly it does not work so I get a guy to cry alligator tears and complain.
I have worked too hard to get it right and everyone can take it or leave it.
When you see me agree with anyone here, you better listen up. The best are here and I could care less about anyone that does not like me.

[DougGuy]

Hehe Jim 60yrs with the .44 who's to argue?

I do favor Felix lube above all others. The truth is, any lube that is hard enough to remain in the grease grooves and is still there when you dig a boolit out of the berm is only along for the ride, it hasn't done much as far as function goes. ANY soft lube that gets smeared in the bore as the boolit travels is doing a better job. I can hit good with Felix and speed green and SPG works a charm in my .45 Colt guns.

You know how cast iron gets a seasoned surface? The bore of a pistol can be SORTA seasoned in the same manner. If you shoot your cast boolits with soft lube, and there is no leading to speak of, run a patch through the bore and look at it when it comes out. IF there is no such thing as seasoning a bore, then the patch would come out clean right? Wrong.. It comes out black because you are wiping out leftover lube, and powder residue mixed together. This black fouling is the seasoning. When the next shot enters the bore, the metal is already prepped by this coating left behind and it helps a LOT from shot to shot. After a shooting session, if you have a "black" bore, and a lube star at the muzzle, your lube is functioning properly. Hard lube don't do this. Hard lube don't leave the bore seasoned, and it don't leave a lube star at the muzzle. I never liked the blue or red lube on commercially cast boolits for this reason. If you had that same hard lube packed into a ball joint on an old Chevy truck, how long you think that ball joint would last? Not long if the lube is sitting back there and not coming in contact with the moving parts. No different with a cast boolit. The lube HAS to integrate with the bore and the boolit. It needs to be a residue left in the bore between shots, it needs to be in the lube groove(s) and it needs to be soft enough that centrifugal force of the boolit torquing up in the bore keeps it slung against the walls of the bore.

There is even discussion about stability from hard lube sticking in the groove, and half the lube slings out and half stays, leaving the boolit heavy on one side, it is said this can contribute to instability. Soft lube slings off at the muzzle and you rarely find any in the lube grooves when you recover a boolit. Some will remain in the narrow flanged groove where the gas check is swaged on to the shank but that's all I ever found of the Felix lubed boolits. SPG does the same thing.

I never clean my bores anymore. There is NO leading. There is nothing to clean out but the residue and I WANT that in there.

[Hickok]

Just one question about the Ruger SBH, other than wearing a good shooting glove, how do you keep that accursed Dragoon square trigger guard from from busting your finger with magnum loads?

[DougGuy]

Couple turns of THIS around your middle finger knuckle. Works like a charm!

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Birdshead%20Vaquero/Bandage_zps3wx4loba.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Birdshead%20Vaquero/Bandage_zps3wx4loba.jpg.html)

[44man]

What can i say my friend? You hit the nail on the head.
Why don't others listen?
I will die with one regret, too many do not know the revolver and just how great it can be. It takes a special person to understand and even most custom makers get it wrong. I don't know if I have made the revolver shoot better then anyone ever has, Elmer, eat your heart out. Now I am old but I still know the revolver.

[44man]

Just one question about the Ruger SBH, other than wearing a good shooting glove, how do you keep that accursed Dragoon square trigger guard from from busting your finger with magnum loads?
Put Pachmayr signature grips on it.

[CTone03]

Just one question about the Ruger SBH, other than wearing a good shooting glove, how do you keep that accursed Dragoon square trigger guard from from busting your finger with magnum loads?

I take the pain and accept it as part of magnum revolver shooting. The middle knuckle of my right hand and my right elbow are badly bruised from this past weekend. I wouldn't trade it for the world!

[CTone03]

I will die with one regret, too many do not know the revolver and just how great it can be.

That is what I have formed a desire for. I had no interest in revolvers or single actions for that matter until I took on this pistol with a vendetta. Most of was because of my old man, but I have come to respect revolvers in the year that I've had this thing. My only regret is that I didn't lend my skills to him while he was still here; he's the one who taught me to reload.

[Radarsonwheels]

I love the way my sbh 44 mag looks with iron sights and rosewood grips but with a 2x scope and big rubber grips it is so functional- I can comfortably shoot Lee 310s over H-110 all day or bang steel at 200 yards off a rest with sierra JSPs- no gloves no problem. The big fold over rubber grips fill in the space behind the trigger guard.

[CTone03]

I love the way my sbh 44 mag looks with iron sights and rosewood grips but with a 2x scope and big rubber grips it is so functional- I can comfortably shoot Lee 310s over H-110 all day or bang steel at 200 yards off a rest with sierra JSPs- no gloves no problem. The big fold over rubber grips fill in the space behind the trigger guard.

One day soon I'll have a scoped revolver. Dad's has the factory iron's, and I'm trying to get better with them. I've read here that SA guns are more difficult to shoot accurately, and I have to agree. It takes some getting used to.

[JSH]

Doug's tape will work. A simple solution I have used for years is a band aide. Put the padded part where it is needed. My shooting box has a box or two in it all the time.

[DougGuy]

Without tape, this is probably 20rds of Lee 300gr RF from a birdshead Vaquero:

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Birdshead%20Vaquero/1dc26311-da91-4d59-9981-3b4a9fd0a0eb_zps993803a4.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Birdshead%20Vaquero/1dc26311-da91-4d59-9981-3b4a9fd0a0eb_zps993803a4.jpg.html)

I wrap two turns of the self-sticking spongy bandage around the knuckle where the red is, and I can shoot as much as I want after taping the knuckle. The sharp square part of the SBH grip frame don't hit me anywhere, the upper part of the trigger guard did all this.

Also, for the record, if you measure the distance from the back of the trigger guard, in a horizontal line to the front inside of the grip frame, the Bisley is the closest, with the shortest distance, the original XR3 is next, the XR3-RED is next, and the SBH and SBH Hunter are the farthest away with the most room between the trigger guard and the grip frame. I went and looked at a Bisley Hunter recently, and just holding it in my hands the trigger guard was already against my knuckle (where it is red in the photo) and I thought well, no way this is not going to hurt to shoot magnum loads and so I have never owned one.

Over the years I hear a LOT of big bore gun writers singing the praises of the Bisley grip frame, everyone including Ross Seyfried, Hamilton Bowen, and many more. Maybe I ought to just SHOOT one and SEE if somehow the recoil abates differently and if it really IS less torture to shoot.

[TXGunNut]

Several things, the SBH and SRH prefer 296 over H110---YEAH, YEAH same powder but you have found H110 needs 1/2 gr more due to the production burn rate Hodgdon uses.-44man

Odd, but true in a RBH in 45 Colt as well. Yep, they're the same...just different.

[Hickok]

Doug, there you have it, exactly what I experienced.

The SBH and BH .45 Colt revolvers cured me of shooting 300+ gr boolits. Sold the molds and went back to 250-270 gr boolits.

The Pachmayr's are no doubt a sure cure, but I just have a hard time getting used to the looks. Still might give them a try, "Purdy is as purdy does!"

Some one here needs to make a custom finger sleeve, that SBH and BH shooters can slide on their finger when shooting!:bigsmyl2:

[JSH]

I think the grip thing folks toss back and forth, has a lot to do with hand and palm size as does the grip it's self. I won't say I don't get smacked every once in a while, but it only happens when I am not paying attention. Broke a finger this summer and have not shot much as of late. My ouch with all three frame designs may have changed, only time will tell.

[Four-Sixty]

I'm curious 44man, what is different about the Hornady dies that makes them better? And, are you talking about the titanium dies, or the cowboy dies by Hornady? I've thought about trying a different set of dies to see if it affected my performance. I'm curious to hear what you have to say as to what the advantage of the Hornady dies is.

[44man]

I'm curious 44man, what is different about the Hornady dies that makes them better? And, are you talking about the titanium dies, or the cowboy dies by Hornady? I've thought about trying a different set of dies to see if it affected my performance. I'm curious to hear what you have to say as to what the advantage of the Hornady dies is.
Mostly the expander. I like the titanium too that works like carbide.
The expander is the right size for tension and is shorter then others so the boolit base does the final expansion for me. One reason I water drop boolits.
Long ago when I got hooked on IHMSA and bought my SBH, I could not do any better then anyone else. In other words, I sucked at it. I started with the 4227's like everyone else used and it was so bad I had to turn my gun upside down to see if my barrel bent! The powders do work in the .357 max but NOT in the .44. I changed to 296 and things changed but still not right.
Then when loading I felt a difference in seating bullets. The light went on. I called a custom BR die maker and he knew right away what I was talking about. He made me collar dies to fit my RCBS press, no expander needed. That worked but they are a real pain to use. I did turn my .44 RCBS dies into other tools.
I then made a tool to fit my press handle to measure seating pressure so I could sort according to brass tension. I could have 10 piles of loads on my bench so I had to load a lot to get enough of one pile for a shoot.
What I found was all piles shot tight groups but between looser and tighter tension, the POI would be 10". Mix them and all I could do was 10" at 50 meters, shoot one pile and I would get 1/2".
In about 3 shoots I was posting International class scores. I skipped over B, A, AA and AAA right to International revolver production.
My revolver was shooting as good as my XP100.
Since the BR dies were a pain, I tried other die sets and the Hornady dies equaled them. I borrowed a lot of dies to test.
I shot Hornady bullets but moved to cast to find tension is even more important because lubes and lead are different.
It was also back then I did primer testing and lube testing. I also tested brand new brass against brass fired a lot to find new brass was the very worst. Then did something stupid with a small batch, I annealed them. OH-OH!
My best 200 yard cast group is 1-5/16" with brass shot over 40X. I am still shooting brass bought in 1980.
I still did not stop and tested out all boolit shapes and got away from the semi wad cutter, born out testing them in my larger bores too. I do not like one big GG and 2 to 3 shoot better. Whether it is balance or slump, I can't say.
I started to make my own molds and never drew a single design on paper, cut cherries by eye and what looked right. All my friends use my boolits. I do make them cast their own! My 45-70, .475 and .500 JRH BFR's have all shot cast to as small as 1/2" at 100 yards but my vision and holding steady is going fast. Don't get old! I have so many floaters in my left eye I see things move in the woods when hunting and bugs crawling up the tree in front of me!
Don't ask me to checker a stock anymore.

[CTone03]

The neck tension thing sounds right; I sort rifle loads by neck tension just by feel. The ones that seat too easy get put in a stack for shooting at cans and stuff, while the ones that feel right get shot at distance. I have the same experience as you, 44man, with new vs fired brass; a .264 LBC that I shoot doesn't tighten up with any load until the brass is once fired. I have a general purpose load for new cases that gets shot at clay birds and bottles. It works for that. I'll try out the Hornady dies in 44 Mag: it certainly can't hurt.

A question though: what about the bullet sizing down when seating? The 240s do this. Same with cast in 9mm, but not in any 45 that I've loaded.

[Four-Sixty]

I appreciate the reply Sir!

I have given thought to what you say about tension after reading your writings over the years. I have bought new brass, and kept the cases together in the MTM boxes noting how many times they are fired. I wholly agree with you about new brass introducing a lot of variation in the loads. I now think of my cases that have been fired 5X or more as "seasoned" and more "trustworthy". I almost am bummed about breaking into a new set of brass and firing the first 3 or so loads I make with it. I do keep a log of my loads and just number them serially. I am at 100 different loads I have made and tested so far. I have made notes of alloy, sized diameter and case, but not made note of case tension. I am thinking of incorporating that as well as the degree of crimp I use into my notes as well. I think I have too much fun trying different loads and noting how they perform.

[44man]

I discovered a lot more and seen what grips do to me. I owned 5 or 6 S&W 29's and 1 Bisley Hunter.
The 29's would all do 1/2" at 50 meters but if I put the gun down for target setters, I would miss the next 5 chickens. Tests still showed 1/2" groups but the next group was 10 to 12" off the first because of the grip. The Bisley did the same to me. Total good groups shot with a Bisley is ONE!
If you search IHMSA scores you will never find a S&W in the winners circle. Not the great gun but the 1000's inch difference in your hold. The standard RH grip is also a pain.
One of the most accurate revolvers made is the SRH, just a firm hold on it.
It might sound strange to find such little differences but if I shot your .44 loads I could tell you what primer you used.

[44man]

The neck tension thing sounds right; I sort rifle loads by neck tension just by feel. The ones that seat too easy get put in a stack for shooting at cans and stuff, while the ones that feel right get shot at distance. I have the same experience as you, 44man, with new vs fired brass; a .264 LBC that I shoot doesn't tighten up with any load until the brass is once fired. I have a general purpose load for new cases that gets shot at clay birds and bottles. It works for that. I'll try out the Hornady dies in 44 Mag: it certainly can't hurt.

A question though: what about the bullet sizing down when seating? The 240s do this. Same with cast in 9mm, but not in any 45 that I've loaded.
You don't want the boolit to get sized at all. I use harder boolits then most do. I water drop everything and if I need some expansion I will cast a part of the nose softer.
I will be the last to tell you to soften for obturation. Any bullet/boolit will swell when thumped of course but fit first is better and a recovered boolit should look the same as you cast it except for rifling marks.
Your boolit must open the brass as you seat. All of my loads show the base and ripples from GG's on the brass. Most important with the revolver since there is no support from rifling like a rifle.
Yet most important is to have all brass with the same tension on the boolit. You can get away with looser, just not one loose and the next tight. Too loose by using large expanders is not good either since primer affects on boolit movement will wash it away. Use an "M" die to start a soft boolit easy and there is nothing left to make powder burn work before boolit exit. So you are told to crimp HARD but the crimp will not open and will size your boolit trying to get out. Brass does not "jump open." The boolit opens crimp.
You size a soft boolit seating and put a .020" crimp on it. Start with .432", size to .429" seating and then run it through another .020" crimp. NO, the crimp did not magically jump open! Now your boolit is .422" or less and your gun leads and shoots like a slingshot.
To make cast shoot is as close to making jacketed shoot as you can get. Rules are rules so if you shoot bullets good, don't think a 16 to 1 boolit will work. The stuff of expanding later down the bore to seal is real funny.
Then you will see to size larger then the throats---WHY? you made your cylinder into a size die. Throats need to be at least .0005" over groove and more will not hurt. Even if your boolit does not expand to throat size, if it is over groove, it will shoot. With jacketed you can be actual groove size.

[TCLouis]

I tried some of the SRH's Lee 310 grainers in the SBH and realized that was not fun after the first cylinder full.

Bare with me and test the next suggestion before blowing it off.

If you are somewhat handy with hand tools, find some wood about 5/16 - 3/8" thick and make a set of grips with no swell in them at all, especially NOT from top to bottom like the standard Rugers.
They do not have to be pretty. just shaped to be comfortable in your hand.

Heck they can be duct taped on, this just a test.

Shoot with those and see what it is like and if your accuracy improves.

I am even planning on making a set with a reverse swelling (thicker at the top), not much, but noticeable amount.

[CTone03]

You don't want the boolit to get sized at all. I use harder boolits then most do. I water drop everything and if I need some expansion I will cast a part of the nose softer.
I will be the last to tell you to soften for obturation. Any bullet/boolit will swell when thumped of course but fit first is better and a recovered boolit should look the same as you cast it except for rifling marks.
Your boolit must open the brass as you seat. All of my loads show the base and ripples from GG's on the brass. Most important with the revolver since there is no support from rifling like a rifle.
Yet most important is to have all brass with the same tension on the boolit. You can get away with looser, just not one loose and the next tight. Too loose by using large expanders is not good either since primer affects on boolit movement will wash it away. Use an "M" die to start a soft boolit easy and there is nothing left to make powder burn work before boolit exit. So you are told to crimp HARD but the crimp will not open and will size your boolit trying to get out. Brass does not "jump open." The boolit opens crimp.
You size a soft boolit seating and put a .020" crimp on it. Start with .432", size to .429" seating and then run it through another .020" crimp. NO, the crimp did not magically jump open! Now your boolit is .422" or less and your gun leads and shoots like a slingshot.
To make cast shoot is as close to making jacketed shoot as you can get. Rules are rules so if you shoot bullets good, don't think a 16 to 1 boolit will work. The stuff of expanding later down the bore to seal is real funny.
Then you will see to size larger then the throats---WHY? you made your cylinder into a size die. Throats need to be at least .0005" over groove and more will not hurt. Even if your boolit does not expand to throat size, if it is over groove, it will shoot. With jacketed you can be actual groove size.

Outstanding. This is good info to me. I've been using an M die, but mostly with the 240s as they're not gas checked and I shave off some of their size during seating. Folks keep telling me to put a serious crimp on the bullets, but after shooting 5 and unloading the last round I'm not seeing them jump. I put enough of a crimp that it can be seen, but I'm not jamming it into the crimp die. I see no need.

[Markbo]

44Man I admit I am surprised about the lube differences on accuracy. Are you doing any powder coating?

[DougGuy]

I *think* what 44man is imparting to you fellas is this.. There are a lot of variables in making a gun shoot well. What you want to do, is separate the components, and separate the process of loading components into a respective group. All these groups are subgroups of the final product. You have neck tension. Chief variable here, is not all boolits seat with the same amount of neck tension. Even boolits that dropped from the same mold and ran through the same sizer. Where is the variable? In the boolit? No, it's in the brass. So you break this neck tension into groups. Loads with less tension go in one group, loads with more tension go in another, loads with "just right" tension go in the group you have chosen as the mean or average of all your loads in this session. Now you have 35-40 rounds out of 150-200 that are 1/2" @ 50 loads until the cows come home.

Now. that paragraph was about only ONE part of what makes neck tension. Your sizing die makes the case smaller, your expander bells it in preparation for the boolit, but cases expand differently. Some will be harder for the handle pull when you size them, some will be looser. Another variable! Some will expand easier than others (likely THESE are the ones that also seat easier than others and they go in their own pile, these are NOT hunting loads or match loads).

Then, you got the hardness of the alloy. Hard boolits shoot good when ALL ELSE is correct! Know what? LOL.. Soft alloys shoot good too, when ALL ELSE is correct! What this statement means, is that you take one given factor. The alloy. This hard boolit wants x amount of neck tension, x amount of crimp, x type of lube, etc, all of it has to match up correctly to make this a good load. All the variables are dependent of each other, and you work with it until you hit on a combination that makes it work really well, then that's the load you want to assemble with this particular boolit. Now take a different alloy, softer boolit, gas check. This boolit wants more crimp, it will have less neck tension because it's softer, you want to expand the case a little more so it don't swage the boolit down when you seat it, and again, when you hit on the correct combination, this boolit will shoot as well as you could want because you have all the variables attuned to one another, and you have hit on a good combination and this boolit works too!

The boolits 44man gets into 1/2" groups are ones that have been carefully screened for variables and are chosen because the variables are most alike with others in the same group. Neck tension, seating tension, crimp, everything is *very* consistent and this consistency is what you want to learn to help you knock the variables down and come up with groups of ammo that have been chosen because of the aforementioned points that I mentioned.

You have reloads, and then you have groups within these reloads. This is where things get specific, where things get picky, where you will develop and HONE your skills at the press because it's not in this die, that die, this expander, that crimp, it is in your eyes, the feel of the lever in your hand, the subtleties of the equipment you work with will speak to you *IF* you tune your ear to listen to what it is saying. It's not going to reach out and bonk you over the head, it's quiet, it's something most overlook, but it's there for you to see if you know what to look for and what to FEEL for. This is the beginning of those incredible groups done with handloads, this is learning how to pick the pepper from the flysh*t because these little details, can make or break the consistency in your handloads.

Then there is the grip.. Put the gun down and pick it up half hour later, POI has changed with the new grip. See, it's ALL variables! Every bit of it! It's not rocket science, it's discipline. Cast out the variables, the brass that just don't "feel" right, cast out the ones that the primer seats too easy in.. You learn what works on your press, you cast out bad habits. You HONE the ones that work until you have THAT group, THAT consistency, and you keep doing it THAT way.

[44man]

About as good an explanation you can get!
I have shot softer, 50-50 but found they scatter all over paper if PB so I shot the same boolits with GC's since Babore sent me both styles. That really helped and he told me to oven harden them too. I was rid of almost all fliers then and got good groups. They measured 18 to 20 BHN but it did not change the ductile qualities and I had true deer grenades! WOW, as much a mess as my soft nose .500.
I tried softer boolits in the .44 and they also need a GC but I still had fliers so I annealed the GC's and it about cured the problem. Must make the GC grip better.
Anyway there is a lot you can do with what you choose to use. I never say never and only testing and trying things out of the box can work.
I don't like the extra work of oven hardening or annealing checks but sometimes there is no choice.
I did crimp tests from full profile to hard roll, all the way to none needing to shoot single shot and never found a difference worth a hoot in groups. All you need is to hold under recoil. I had cases that still had crimp after shooting and you don't want that. It is another size die.
The worst I ever shot were factory cast loads with full profile in .454. One shot would tie up a Freedom and two tied up a SRH. The very hard crimp did not make up for no tension. I fear tapping boolits back in loaded rounds with a dowel. Imagine a proud primer on the recoil plate?

[44man]

44Man I admit I am surprised about the lube differences on accuracy. Are you doing any powder coating?
Yes and a softer lube always worked best. I have piles of lube sticks in a drawer, most commercial stuff. Felix, MML, Satan's lube, LBT soft and magnum all work best. LBT hard opened groups but CR did a decent job but most of my boolits are lubed by hand before the Lee push through and CR will raise a blister. I use a lube-sizer now and then but prefer a Lee die.
I never liked Alox. I have not powder coated since what I do has worked fine. I do see the merit in it though. Someday!
You can go through everything but in the end, the most damage to your shooting ability will point to the brass case. You can sort new brass out by POI and just load those that shot in a group. Notice a BR shooter uses the same five cases and loads at the shooting bench.
All the little things add to your accuracy. Then you get too old to make use of it! [smilie=s:

[CTone03]

I don't like the extra work of oven hardening or annealing checks but sometimes there is no choice.


I'm using WW and water casting. What do you recommend for oven hardening?

DougGuy, excellent summary!

[tenx]

i have an older sbh (1978-79 vintage) that likes the lyman 429421 sized .432 with a moderate charge of unique. pachmayr grips fill in the space behind the trigger guard and my knuckle is grateful. tired eyes have almost made it mandatory for me to use a red dot so i have drilled and tapped mine for a weigand mount and use a ultra dot sight. never had mush trouble finding a good load, got lucky and mine shoots most anything well. i enjoy shooting it a lot as long as i have the pachmayr grips on it. down right painfull otherwise.

[44man]

I'm using WW and water casting. What do you recommend for oven hardening?

DougGuy, excellent summary!
With plain WW I just water drop but 50-50 needed, if I remember, 425° for an hour. Written down somewhere here. Then just a few days before loading.
I use a stainless colander in the kitchen oven and set the whole thing in a 5 gal bucket of water. I don't want to try and pour hot boolits off a sheet pan.

[CTone03]

Good call on the colander/water bucket. I appreciate the info.

I've just finished loading 18 more of the 310s which are lubed with the Ben's Red. I went with cci300s as well, and backed off the crimp a bit. Regarding the crimp, I noticed this morning that fired cases still have enough of a crimp-set that a bullet wouldn't start without buggering up the GC; I had to bell the mouth (slightly). Neck tension was perfect for 14; the other four are separated.

Hopefully today I'll get the chance to shoot them side by side with the 45/45/10 loads with cci350s. I'm definitely going to try the fed150, 296, and Hornady dies as soon as time allows.

[44man]

Good call on the colander/water bucket. I appreciate the info.

I've just finished loading 18 more of the 310s which are lubed with the Ben's Red. I went with cci300s as well, and backed off the crimp a bit. Regarding the crimp, I noticed this morning that fired cases still have enough of a crimp-set that a bullet wouldn't start without buggering up the GC; I had to bell the mouth (slightly). Neck tension was perfect for 14; the other four are separated.

Hopefully today I'll get the chance to shoot them side by side with the 45/45/10 loads with cci350s. I'm definitely going to try the fed150, 296, and Hornady dies as soon as time allows.
You will have trouble seating even if cases are straight so you DO need a slight flare. That is different then seeing actual crimp left. You STILL need a little flare. You need to just set a boolit straight and then seat SLOWLY. I have had friends here that thought a loading press needed to be run at 186,000 MPS. One was a gun writer too. I had to slam his brakes on.
Ben's Red worked like a champ in my rifles but I think it needs some lanolin in a revolver. It is very slippery and can break a boolit loose too soon. Someday I will work on it. No dis to Ben, he works hard. I hope he is still a friend. But you need some "sticky" in a revolver. Lanolin seems to be best. I bet some added to Ben's would be wonderful. Cheap from Majestic Mountain Sage or From Nature With Love. I once got a 2# jug for $8. Only need a TBLS or so. Add when much cooler. takes little heat to melt in, Boiling water temps.
Be aware you can negate one good thing with one bad choice. It is near a lifetime of work for me.
It is best to follow everything.

[fivefang]

amen to that ,bought my firs in'55,6.5".44 Ruger #11114,Lyman 429215, 27.5 Hercules 2400, have now SSRH, 7.5", a 7.5" 3scr .44FT,a Purple 3scr.SBH,7.5", 20.5 gr WC 820 works well in all them

[ironhead7544]

Concerning the Bisley grip, I was also skeptical. I had a 44 Special Flat Top and was shooting Elmer's load. A friend brought out his Bisley Flat Top. Big difference. The standard grip hit my finger pretty hard. The Bisley was just a push, no pain. To me, it is butt ugly and feels a bit weird in the hand, but it does reduce the recoil.

[CTone03]

Well, my testing today was inconclusive on paper. The 310s with 45/45/10 were terrible for one group, and 1 1/2" for another. The loads with Ben's Red were 1 3/4" to 1 7/8" - but had noticeably less recoil. I want to completely rework the load to bring it down to 1,200; but I've heard that that the C430-310-RF prefers to be driven hard. Any thoughts? Are there 300+ grain bullets that are stable at ~1,100?

Soon I want to try cast 240/250s again. I also noticed today that several of the screws that hold the grip frame on were loose. Time to go back over the gun and square everything away.

[44man]

The 310 does need some velocity. I believe mine is around 1320 fps. I get 1316 with the LBT 320 but never checked the lee.
I tried shooting heavy boolits slow (1100 fps) and got 2' shotgun patterns at 50 yards. If you want slower, best to drop to 240 and 250 gr. 240 is a golden spot with a .44, I never liked lighter bullets either.
Make some Felix lube or get lanolin and add some to Ben's. Lube is SOOOO important you would not believe.

[DougGuy]

The Lee 310 I use is soft, cast 50/50+2% with Felix lube and has good accuracy out of a 7 1/2" barrel, crimped in the bottom groove over 17.0gr H2400 powder, WLP primers. Velocity is 1180 ~ 1200fps. This is not a max load by any means but I hit on a good combination that woks well in this SBH. Others' mileage may vary!

The long flat nosed designs with a lot of the weight in front of the driving bands and a shorter bearing surface DO NOT stabilize unless flung about as hard as you can push them from a SBH. The Lee 310 has a shorter fatter nose and longer sides for a longer bearing surface what bearing this has on stability I don't really know but I can shoot them much more accurately than the long flat nose, at 1200 fps.

[Markbo]

Doug, I have been told recently by a couple of gents who's opinions I respect that WFN bullets will not stabilize over longer range as well as a LFN nor will they stabilize even at shorter range (out to 100 yds) unless pushed hard. Is this your experience as well? I have an FA 97 in .41 mag that Id like to shoot heavier than 210gr boolits but OAL is limited.

[DougGuy]

Doug, I have been told recently by a couple of gents who's opinions I respect that WFN bullets will not stabilize over longer range as well as a LFN nor will they stabilize even at shorter range (out to 100 yds) unless pushed hard. Is this your experience as well? I have an FA 97 in .41 mag that Id like to shoot heavier than 210gr boolits but OAL is limited.

I think this is probably a true scenario with the long range but I don't know about short range. It's working good for me at hunting distances, 35-40yds @1200fps from a SBH. The Lee 310 is probably only good to 100yds in a rifle. Any of those heavy flat nose boolits will work better the faster they are pushed. These things are like little bulldozers, when you want to do tremendous damage, it don't have to go that fast. That's why I like them and I like them 50/50+2% soft. No hollowpoints needed with this load. I'm probably right at or right above the velocity where they start getting unstable. I don't think I have much wiggle room there, another 50 ~ 75 fps slower might have them opening up groups like shooting buckshot.

[21Glock]

I've started casting for my new(since July) Classic S&W 29 .44 Mag. 6.5" blued gun. I used to shoot competition with one back in the mid 80s. This is about the 3rd or 4th one I've had and will never sell this one.
I'm using the LEE SWC 240gr. mold, cast from wheel weights, water dropped and lubed with Liquid Alox. If do my part, the gun will group like a dream!
I'm running speeds at around 1150 1300 fps and NO LEADING with this set up.
Couldn't be happier with what this classic N frame work of art is turning out for me.

[nagantguy]

Thank you all for the wonderful read and great insight and info. DougGuy, .44man thank you for so freely sharing your knowledge. I went through my own accuracy trials with SBH'S and a few rifles last hear the Lee 310 pcd was the clear winner, cast hard and driven fast and powder coated. Brass is the weak link/ winning combination. I tend to favor h110, but milage varies. Just bought a jug of 296 and I'll plan to test it out again. I'd like to nominate this thread as a sticky! !!!! Also to the op, way to stick it out and make your dad's gun live up to its potential! !! He'd be proud of ya, I am!!!

[44man]

Doug, I have been told recently by a couple of gents who's opinions I respect that WFN bullets will not stabilize over longer range as well as a LFN nor will they stabilize even at shorter range (out to 100 yds) unless pushed hard. Is this your experience as well? I have an FA 97 in .41 mag that Id like to shoot heavier than 210gr boolits but OAL is limited.
That is just not true about a WFN. It is entirely spin and stability. Each and every boolit will come in if right. I think a full wad cutter can go the distance if the gun is perfect. The problem with a wad cutter and semi wad cutter is cylinder steerage without wiping the shoulders off.
I hate the Keith but darn it if it enters the cone and bore straight, it will shoot. The ogive does nothing at all. I don't think meplat size has any affect if you meet velocity and spin along with the cylinder "clock."

[Markbo]

So 44man wfn, lfn, keith - any/all can shot good from moderate to hot rod if the gun is right? I am trying to find a heavier than 210 bullet for my FA 97 in .41 mag. I am sure that gun is right. ;)

Nagantguy...you lost me...what is a pcd???

[44man]

[QUOTE=Markbo;3486387]So 44man wfn, lfn, keith - any/all can shot good from moderate to hot rod if the gun is right? I am trying to find a heavier than 210 bullet for my FA 97 in .41 mag. I am sure that gun is right. ;)
Yes, my favorite was the 429421 in my first .44's. Also the 358156 in the .357. I believe the gun has to be right first.
Crazy thought that older guns were fit better but darn it is hard to match even old rifles. Just try to beat a 1917 Enfield today. Or a Springfield. My 1919 Swede will make you eat dirt.
Many hated a savage but they are love all the way.

[CTone03]

I'm using the LEE SWC 240gr. mold, cast from wheel weights, water dropped and lubed with Liquid Alox. If do my part, the gun will group like a dream! I'm running speeds at around 1150 1300 fps and NO LEADING with this set up.


That gives me hope that I can get mine dialed in with the 240 Lee SWC. I'm going to slow mine down to 1,100 or so. Leading in mine hasn't been a problem; just grouping.

[CTone03]

[QUOTE=Markbo;3486387]So 44man wfn, lfn, keith - any/all can shot good from moderate to hot rod if the gun is right? I am trying to find a heavier than 210 bullet for my FA 97 in .41 mag. I am sure that gun is right. ;)
Yes, my favorite was the 429421 in my first .44's. Also the 358156 in the .357. I believe the gun has to be right first.
Crazy thought that older guns were fit better but darn it is hard to match even old rifles. Just try to beat a 1917 Enfield today. Or a Springfield. My 1919 Swede will make you eat dirt.
Many hated a savage but they are love all the way.

That makes me cringe. The particular gun I'm shooting has quite a history. For one my old man got four 240 JHP bullets stuck in the barrel (two went bang, the others went 'poof'. Do the math to see how lucky he was. And yes, he violated all common sense that day). Then he broke off a carbide drill bit in the barrel. I sent the gun back to Ruger and they re-barreled it and worked it over. Still, I think two chambers are bulged. The cases are harder to extract in them no matter what load, and they have little pregnant bellies. I'm waiting to find a new cylinder for it.

[44man]

[QUOTE=44man;3486410]

That makes me cringe. The particular gun I'm shooting has quite a history. For one my old man got four 240 JHP bullets stuck in the barrel (two went bang, the others went 'poof'. Do the math to see how lucky he was. And yes, he violated all common sense that day). Then he broke off a carbide drill bit in the barrel. I sent the gun back to Ruger and they re-barreled it and worked it over. Still, I think two chambers are bulged. The cases are harder to extract in them no matter what load, and they have little pregnant bellies. I'm waiting to find a new cylinder for it.
Depends on the powder, never under any circumstances under load H110 or 296.
Case tension was never considered long ago and a mag primer can push a boolit out without ignition.
Since we do not know what your dad did, it will remain a mystery. It was sure not the bullet.

[nagantguy]

So 44man wfn, lfn, keith - any/all can shot good from moderate to hot rod if the gun is right? I am trying to find a heavier than 210 bullet for my FA 97 in .41 mag. I am sure that gun is right. ;)

Nagantguy...you lost me...what is a pcd???

Powder coated, should have spelled it out, sorry for any confusion.

[44man]

I fell in love with the .44 back in 56, Ruger flat top first and then a long line of 29's. I was a huge fan of Elmer and shot out beyond 500 yards.
There was not much to be had but I had the Lyman molds and dies before brass, had to shoot factory loads for brass--now talk about HOT loads! Some were plated but most were too soft. My 429421 made them look sick. I just air cooled too. That old original mold made perfect boolits, of course we said bullets.
I once got rid of everything, even sold my RCBS A-2 press. Then seen an IHMSA match and got back into things. Worst thing I ever did was to sell so much great stuff. Sold my CH swage press and all the Herter's stuff. It is not right to start all over.
But what I did first was not enough to take steel at 200 meters every shot. The worst are turkeys at 150. At Ohio state I cleaned 20 chickens, pigs, turkeys and 19 rams, missed the last one. My fault from a shake. The strain got to me. But the SBH is still in service for deer today.
The same year I won Ohio .22 with a Mark II, new out of box with no sight settings. 57 out of 60 and all shoot off chickens at 100 yards. I could see then. My spotter made it happen.
I shot with the best, Boyd Carpenter, super friend, Josie Engle, Blackie Sleeva. Josie was a true lady and held the off hand record for a long time, 37 out of 40 with a TC. She was tough to beat but a real nice person as were all the top shooters. No better people then top shooters, they will go out of their way to help you.
The only anger I ever seen were from those that shot poor.
The worst thing to do is shut down your mind and not listen. Sticking to the same things you read, expecting better is the definition of insanity in any case.
I tried to help revolver shooters to no use. Their needle is stuck in one groove. The solution was always a $2500 gun that should shoot the junk loads. $300 Ruger was King. DW and Freedoms had one advantage, BETTER SIGHTS!

[Hickok]

44man, do you use the Pachmayr grips on your SBH's?

It looks like you have a set on your revolvers in you avatar. Also, what is the best scope base to use on the SBH, as I know you have a lot of experience with the Rugers.

Hope the doe season ended well for you!

[bosterr]

I shot with the best, Boyd Carpenter, super friend, Josie Engle, Blackie Sleeva. Josie was a true lady and held the off hand record for a long time, 37 out of 40 with a TC. She was tough to beat but a real nice person as were all the top shooters. No better people then top shooters, they will go out of their way to help you.

I never met Boyd or Josie. I just remember their names on the score board. I had the pleasure to meet Blackie and shoot a couple of times at his range and shoot with him at my buddy's woods walk range. Arthritis has set into his gun hand, no doubt caused by hard kickers. He's now recovering from rotator cuff surgery he had a few weeks ago. You're right, a nicer man you'll never meet.

[44man]

44man, do you use the Pachmayr grips on your SBH's?

It looks like you have a set on your revolvers in you avatar. Also, what is the best scope base to use on the SBH, as I know you have a lot of experience with the Rugers.

Hope the doe season ended well for you!
Yes I use the Pachmeyer on the Ruger but the BFR has Uncle Mikes. Same as.
The best base is the Weigand.
I did not see a deer on the last day but my friend got a nice one.