500 s&w

[apen]

I bought one of these revolvers the other day. The only thing I have shot in it are commercially available bullets. I have tried the 400 sierra, 500 grain hornady, 460 grain LFN from matts bullets, 535 grain swc's from matt's bullets, and a 440 from montana bullet. The 440 grain from montana was the best which really pleased me since it is cast. I've not been able to find any accuracy reporting on this round....just lots of people shooting watermelons at 10 yards. I'm looking for suggestions on a long range boolit design. Jon Ross had an article posted on the net a while back on boolit design but it is gone. In that article he made suggestions on a boolit mold design specifically for long range. I'm not interested in watered down loads for it. If anyone has input, I'd appreciate it.

[singleshot]

Get a Lee 440gr mold and don't look back. John Ross boolits are fine but entirely unnecessary. What's your idea of long range?

[apen]

I'd like to be able to clang an 18"x24" gong at 500M with enough regularity that it is worth shooting at.

[singleshot]

Well, if you're good enough with your revolver, you can do it on a calm day. If you're wanting to minimize wind drift, heavier is better. I don't remember how hard you can push a 700gr out of a revolver, I have an 18" barreled rifle...but keeping the boolit subsonic will minimize your winddrift, so shoot the biggest boolit you can push to 1050fps.

[singleshot]

..provided it fits in the cylinder, that is...

[apen]

700 grain boolits won't stabilize that far.......not by a long shot. I'm new to this caliber, but I know that isn't possible in a 18 twist barrel.

[saleen322]

The 500 has a lot of energy but the 460 seems better for distance.

[singleshot]

700 grain boolits won't stabilize that far.......not by a long shot. I'm new to this caliber, but I know that isn't possible in a 18 twist barrel.
Really? Why do you think that? Isn't that what Ross recommends for long range? At any rate, it's purely academic if it won't fit.

[singleshot]

Btw, any idea what 50 bmg twist is? 1:15. Any idea how heavy and what shape bullets it will stabilize thru transonic? Take a guess...

[apen]

Maybe I'm wrong. I know he had one done with faster rifling for the heavier bullets. Was this a round nose?

[44man]

We tried the 700 gr monsters in a S&W revolver and at 50 yards they made sideways holes.
We tried them in soaked phone books and none made a straight path, some came out the top and sides. Just can't spin them up enough.
To act like a couple of nuts, we also tried 400 gr in the .44 mag-- same problems.
The heavy bullets in the BMG are spun and even when transonic, spin has not degraded that much.
I would say a 440 gr is ideal in the S&W. I made a PB mold for a 440 gr WFN to use in my .500 JRH. I shoot it at 1350 fps and the farthest I have shot is 200 yards, still accurate with round holes but with a 50 yard setting it drops a lot--36". I think it would carry to 500 as long as you can sight for it. I have shot it from a friends .500 S&W and it does good.

[ole 5 hole group]

500 meters is a long poke for sure with a handcannon. I'm thinking you're using optics, as the front sight would probably cover an acre at that distance.:smile: I would think a 400 to 440 grain cast with the LFN design might do it if you have enough sight adjustment in your optics (maybe a base with 60 moa built-in would help). 44man likes the WFN design and that might do it as well - I shoot both designs and have no trouble missing with either bullet style.:?

I can give you a starting point for throwing those pumpkins:
35.0 grains of H110 with a 440 grain cast WFN will zip along at 1,410 fps from a 5" barrel.
32.0 grains of Lil'Gun with a 440 grain cast WFN will fly at 1,385 fps from a 5" barrel. Lil'Gun will heat your barrel real fast, so be aware of that - not sure if it would have any effect on the forcing cone over a long period of time, but you might want to consider your options on that powder.

[44man]

It sure is a lot of fun though. Sadly I no longer belong to the club where I had 500 meters, 547 yards to shoot. It can be done.
The added velocity and spin of the S&W will be stable. Go for it.

[apen]

500 meters is a long poke for sure with a handcannon. I'm thinking you're using optics, as the front sight would probably cover an acre at that distance. I would think a 400 to 440 grain cast with the LFN design might do it if you have enough sight adjustment in your optics (maybe a base with 60 moa built-in would help). 44man likes the WFN design and that might do it as well - I shoot both designs and have no trouble missing with either bullet style.


I can give you a starting point for throwing those pumpkins:
35.0 grains of H110 with a 440 grain cast WFN will zip along at 1,410 fps from a 5" barrel.
32.0 grains of Lil'Gun with a 440 grain cast WFN will fly at 1,385 fps from a 5" barrel. Lil'Gun will heat your barrel real fast, so be aware of that - not sure if it would have any effect on the forcing cone over a long period of time, but you might want to consider your options on that powder.




I got a 8lb jug of H110....so that will be the powder for a while. I bought a leupold 2.5-8x32. Leupold had a 100.00 rebate pr
omotion. I think these rings from burris + the internal adjustment will get me close....I don't mind holding over some.


http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/12/tactical-tech-new-xtr-signature-rings-from-burris/


I just plugged in a 400 sierra into the jbm calculator at 1700 fps (that figure came from here http://www.reloadammo.com/500sw.htm) it gave 60 moa drop from a 50 yard zero. The calculator doesn't have cast in the database.



I made a PB mold for a 440 gr WFN to use in my .500 JRH. I shoot it at 1350 fps and the farthest I have shot is 200 yards, still accurate with round holes but with a 50 yard setting it drops a lot--36". I think it would carry to 500 as long as you can sight for it. I have shot it from a friends .500 S&W and it does good.


Did your friend’s barrel lead with the pb?

[44man]

No and I get no leading in any of my other guns with a PB. I have taken my .45 PB to 55,000# in a .454 with super accuracy. I just water drop WW boolits. Boolits fit is all.
Many of my revolvers just get the cylinders cleaned and lubed with STP, barrels go 3 years or more without a patch.
To have fun at 500 meters, I clanged steel rams with my BFR 45-70 and had to aim at a tree branch at what I figure was 26 to 30' over. Ultra Dot I would not change from my deer sight in.
I use Felix lube or MML, never mule snot, even on TL Lee boolits.
After one sighter, I kept the next 4 on a 6" swinger at 400 yards with my 420 gr, .475 boolit by holding the bottom of the dot on top of the 500 meter berm. My friend tried and got 3 hits, the rifle shooters came to see what we were shooting. I had asked if I could try their target. Ever see a rifleman stare at a BFR revolver? We shot Creedmore.

[Powersgt]

I designed a 510gr WFN GC (Mountain Molds) to fit my buddies Performance center. I never tried to push it to its full potential but settled on the 1200 fps mark. It would shoot 1 3/4 groups at 75+yards with open sights out of a H&R single shot rifle but it was just hard to hold onto the pistol before I would get to shaky and start wondering a bit. Out of the rifle (which I believe was the same twist rate,) I had to crank the rear sight all the way to the right so I could get it to hit point of aim but all the holes where nice and round.

[44man]

Even out of a rifle, it can't be pleasant! It is still a horrendous cartridge good for tanks!

[Powersgt]

Even out of a rifle, it can't be pleasant! It is still a horrendous cartridge good for tanks!

I agree, went with the 500JRH and a 430gr. A lot more fun to shoot and accurate.

[apen]

I shot it at 50 yards with 4moa ultadot the other day. Hopefully the leupold will cut them down a bit.
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn117/1911govt/IMG_0900_zpsvgvo39gb.jpg (http://s302.photobucket.com/user/1911govt/media/IMG_0900_zpsvgvo39gb.jpg.html)


http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn117/1911govt/IMG_0894_zpsallh6vcj.jpg (http://s302.photobucket.com/user/1911govt/media/IMG_0894_zpsallh6vcj.jpg.html)

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn117/1911govt/80d52059-f930-4a29-909e-f24cffd0114d_zpsvpjpdzko.jpg (http://s302.photobucket.com/user/1911govt/media/80d52059-f930-4a29-909e-f24cffd0114d_zpsvpjpdzko.jpg.html)

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn117/1911govt/IMG_0902_zpszaby3uow.jpg (http://s302.photobucket.com/user/1911govt/media/IMG_0902_zpszaby3uow.jpg.html)

[44man]

Very, very good. You will do better with a scope but I gave them up for deer. The UD is harder to get a good picture on paper.
You will find you still will be stable at long range.
The beast might do you in first! :bigsmyl2:

[Markbo]

440gr @ 1700fps sure doesnt sound like a target load to me. That is full on hand cannon stuff. ;)

[ole 5 hole group]

Apen - That is some mighty fine shooting. 40.0 grains of H110 with that 400 grain Sierra won't leave much air space between the powder and the bullet base but you do appear to have mastered "the hand canon" - good for you.

[lar45]

You didn't mention which one you have? BFR or S&W, bbl length?
There was a S&W special run with a 10 twist bbl that will stabilize the 700gn bullets.

SingleShot: The 700gn bullets were made to fit the S&W cylinder length, mine is 2.348". The BFR's cylinder is 3"
The 50 BMG's velocity is more than twice the 500S&W, so the bullets will be spinning faster. So they should stablize with a slower twist.
Here is Ranger Rick's load data for the 700's.

156439

I have the rest of it for different bullet weights in excel .xls format if you're interested, just PM me your email.

[apen]

Markbo, that is a 400 not 440. I don't know how fast the 440's or 460 grain were.
Thanks lar45.. I sent you my email

[Markbo]

Ooooh...only 400gr @ 1700fps.

A pipsqueak! ;)

[44man]

I did not know S&W made some at 1 in 10". I don't know the standard twist but the BFR is 1 in 15" while some .500 guns are 1 in 20".
As twist slows boolits must be lighter to speed up spin. Until we have spin stabilizing fins, we need to work with twist.
Lar, what in the world is recoil inertia on S&W parts with a 700 gr boolit?

[lar45]

Yes it was a custom run of 5" pistols with no muzzle brake and the barrel nut had 5 sides or something like that.
I shot one at the Linebaugh seminar last year. The owner had some 635's loaded to the hilt. After a couple of those my whole forearm buzzed for like 30 mins, lol. We shot some out of my 4" also to get a side by side comparison. He said that he was told the factory muzzle brake was useless on anything less than the 8" pistols, so that's why the run was made without one. The recoil was noticably less in my factory stock 4".

I don't know if a steady diet of 700's will tweak the gun or not. I load and shoot them only occasionally so people can say that they've shot the 700's. I've only shot them to 50yds, but I've heard that with the stock twist they will not be stayble much past 50yds.

[44man]

Recoil is starting to bother me now, lost a lot of strength. I don't think I want that big anymore.
Just a year ago, no problems but I have had some "ouch" moments with just my JRH this year.

[ole 5 hole group]

Yes it was a custom run of 5" pistols with no muzzle brake and the barrel nut had 5 sides or something like that.
I shot one at the Linebaugh seminar last year. The owner had some 635's loaded to the hilt. After a couple of those my whole forearm buzzed for like 30 mins, lol. We shot some out of my 4" also to get a side by side comparison. He said that he was told the factory muzzle brake was useless on anything less than the 8" pistols, so that's why the run was made without one. The recoil was noticably less in my factory stock 4".

I don't know if a steady diet of 700's will tweak the gun or not. I load and shoot them only occasionally so people can say that they've shot the 700's. I've only shot them to 50yds, but I've heard that with the stock twist they will not be stayble much past 50yds.

I think that 5" S&W 500 revolver you're referring to was a special run made up for John Ross - The revolver was made to Ross's specifications which differed basically from the norm by having a 5" non-compensated barrel w/barrel nut, a tighter/smaller cylinder gap and a 1:10 barrel twist rate. The smaller cylinder gap is achieved by tension with that muzzle nut, which allows a much tighter barrel-cylinder gap of approximately 0.0035" which gives approximately 100 fps greater velocity over a S&W 500 of the same barrel length. I purchased one from Mr. Ross and dealt with him personally for the acquisition but when the revolver needed some "warranty repair" it went straight back to S&W and S&W paid the freight both ways - they did this twice for my revolver.

The problem was the small cylinder gap - after about 35 to 50 rounds the crud tied up my cylinder and it was time consuming to get it back up and running again, so S&W opened the gap up and I've never experienced any problems since - I returned it the second time because they did a sloppy job opening the gap the 1st time. I also had very tight cylinder throats, so I sent the cylinder off to Jim Stroh. Jim is now retired.

I got a few 700 grainers in a sample pac from Ranger Rick many years ago but never loaded any up - 600 grain is the heaviest I've shot but they did shoot well, so I would expect 700 grain pushed hard would do well at 50 yards or greater. That Ross model is expensive but well worth it just to rid yourself of that concussion when shooting under a covered range line - I can shoot 100 rounds in an afternoon and not feel "punch-drunk" even after double plugging.:veryconfu

[Markbo]

700gr... all yours my man!!

[21Glock]

I run the LEE 440gr. FN GC water dropped wheel weights for all my needs. both target and hunting. It'll reach out and "touch" anything I aim it at for sure.

[Whiterabbit]

Btw, any idea what 50 bmg twist is? 1:15. Any idea how heavy and what shape bullets it will stabilize thru transonic? Take a guess...

From an academic point of view, I agree with you 100% if you can get those 700 grain bullets moving at 2700 fps like they do in the BMG :)

Stability is somewhat less if the speed isn't up..... :) :)

[bbailey7821]

I am a big fan of the John Ross ~400g HP Mold from a Group Buy. If you can put you hands on one, it will serve you well. And to boot, it's designed to fit in the S&W Cylinder. This picture ought to say it all.
:guntootsmiley:

156824

[Crawdaddy]

Get a Lee 440gr mold and don't look back. John Ross boolits are fine but entirely unnecessary. What's your idea of long range?

Yep, I can put 5 out of 5 shots in a paperplate at 100 yards with the Lee 440. Usually 3-4 inches. Im using a red dot sight. Pretty sure with a scope I could cut that in half. Im sure the gun and boolit will shoot better than I can.

I have one other mold and it is custom from Mountain Molds. It casts 600 grain boolits and accuracy is very nearly the same. If OP wants to try a handful holler. Or for that matter anyone else.

[tygar]

I've had 500s since they came out & have settled on bullets in the 370-390gr as the best all around.
Accurate, easier to shoot & will drop whatever you should shoot with it. I have the 440 & shoot it sometimes but it's not as accurate for me & of course, shoots harder at full pop.

Dave at CH4D uses a brass 375gr he makes for Africa on everything up to Buffalo. He got me shooting that size area. Out of 375s but still have some 360s? he made & they shoot great.

[krems]

I hurt just thinking about shooting a 400gr. at 1700fps...especially with a handgun. I picked up a 500S&W rifle a couple years ago. Im really happy with a 400 gr at 1400fps...I must be a wimp. The BHA rifle also happens to be my most accurate rifle.

[Markbo]

Krems I am guessing a 400gr .500 slug at 1400fps - or less - will go plumb through almost anything in North America. I know for a fact this is true of a 375gr .475" slug at only 1100fps.

[44man]

Here ya go!156958

[apen]

Recoil is starting to bother me now, lost a lot of strength. I don't think I want that big anymore.
Just a year ago, no problems but I have had some "ouch" moments with just my JRH this year.

That is a concern I have. I started using a glove and it helps with the superficial hand pain, but I have a stiff wrist the next morning. I limit myself to 40 rounds.
Thanks everyone for your suggestions.
I'll report back once I get my rings and try it at the gong.

[ErnieBishop]

The scope will help tighten things up when shooting further. At least it does for me and my eyes.
I would choose the bullet you and the 500 can shoot the best.
Those babies tend to have some recoil , so really stay focused mentally, to ensure consistency in grip, trigger press, breathing, etc.

[carlsonwayne]

Have any of you had your S&W 500 stutter? Like, boom, boom, from one trigger pull? Mine has at least 3 times, and while it's funny, it seems at least a little unsafe. I can't comprehend how it's possible for it to do it either. First time was factory loads, next two were reloads. The last one was only 25 grains of 296 behind the Lee 440. Never had it happen with 10 grains of Trail Boss behind the same boolits. But then, that load is like a medium 44 mag load.

[Crawdaddy]

Have any of you had your S&W 500 stutter? Like, boom, boom, from one trigger pull? Mine has at least 3 times, and while it's funny, it seems at least a little unsafe. I can't comprehend how it's possible for it to do it either. First time was factory loads, next two were reloads. The last one was only 25 grains of 296 behind the Lee 440. Never had it happen with 10 grains of Trail Boss behind the same boolits. But then, that load is like a medium 44 mag load.

I read an article about this happening and it didn't have a good ending. Google "negligent suicide" and you should find it.

A guy thought it would be funny to let a shooter that had never shot a gun before try a 500 Smith. The girl fired , put a death grip on the gun, pulled the trigger a second time and killed herself.

I suspect it is the same thing happening to you. Be careful.

http://bearingarms.com/negligent-suicide-with-a-500-smith-wesson-revolver/

[Markbo]

That story, while tragic, is not all all what is happening to carlson. His gun is firing 2 rounds simultaneously, i.e. one out of the chamber and into the air next to the barrel at the same instant the planned shot is going into the barrel. The fact this has happened more than once and you continue to shoot means we will undoubtedly be reading of your death in the near future and we can only hope and pray no innocent bystanders are injured - or worse by your gross negligence.

The 2nd round is firing frm recoil into the recoil shield. It is a known issue. Return that gun for service or prepare for the worst. The absolute worst.

[carlsonwayne]

Both bullets go out the barrel. There's absolutely NO indication of bullets hitting the recoil shield. It's making two booms, not one, but only one trigger pull. Before even releasing the trigger it fires the second shot. Hence the term stuttering. Like a full auto stutter. I've been shooting revolvers and pistols since I was 10 or 11. I've seen, heard, and heard about all kinds of things with handguns. What this is doing should be impossible, yet it does it. The second round has a dimpled primer, too, proving it is a stutter, not a simultaneous detonation. If the issue was what Markbo describes, it would have been back to Smith in less than a week from the first time it happened. The first two times it happened, we were uncertain if it actually stuttered. We were 99% certain, but not completely. The last time, it was on video, and we quadruple checked the video, and it definitely did it. There is no gross negligence involved, just a lack of being concerned enough to ship it back to Smith yet.

[carlsonwayne]

OK, I read that article. NOT even close to what is happening. One trigger pull, two shots down the barrel. No loss of control at all. It just occurred to me that that makes it illegal. It's an automatic when it does that. That point of it concerns me more than that it does it. I would hate to go to prison because I have an assault revolver!!!!

[mcdaniel.mac]

I will absolutely bet $50 that you're releasing the trigger just enough to reset and pulling it a second time. Get it on a GoPro or other slow motion camera. Alternatively, try letting go of the trigger instead of holding it back, and I bet the problem disappears.

[carlsonwayne]

It happens faster than the trigger can be released. However, I will try your suggestion to be 110% certain of this. The video I have doesn't show the trigger. We haven't been able to predict when it will double fire, so I'm going to have to burn up an unknown amount of ammo to try to record it. Wait a minute, you do realize the extra effort shooting double action is, don't you?! I don't think it's possible to do what you suggest without knowing I'm doing it. Three different people doing the same thing?? Highly unlikely, if not nearly impossible. I don't think even democrats are that stupid. And, if your idea were happening, why only my 500? Why wouldn't webe doing it with any of my 44's or 357's, or any of my friends and families guns? Out of over 1000 rounds through it, it has happened only 3, maybe 4, times. As I said, I don't think even democrats are that stupid.

[mcdaniel.mac]

If I had to guess, the 500 scares you more, subconsciously, so you bear down on it more. I've doubletapped DAO semiauto before when trying to ride the reset.

Send it to Smith or open it up and look, but I can't think of anything that can cause this mechanically.

[carlsonwayne]

So three different people are scared of an oversized popgun? Maybe one. If THAT were the problem, it would happen more frequently. I had a sister-in-law who put her face too close to the scope on a 243 once. She could never shoot a rifle accurately after that. That's more in line what you're talking about. If you knew me, you would never even think that thought about me. I have always enjoyed heavy recoil guns. That's the ONLY reason I have a Mossberg 835. It shoots the 3.5" shells, its pump, and I load as close to the maximum loads as I find reasonable. None of the rest of my friends or family will shoot it, except my youngest brother. The only reason I don't have a 50 BMG, is because I can't afford it yet. If/when I can, I will load it hot too. I shoot my 500 single handed most of the time, unless I using my hunting loads while hunting. 2 deer killed with that thing so far (no, not from a double fire, although that would be an unbelievable story to tell!!!), more gophers than I can remember, and some other things we don't talk about, but somehow I'm afraid of the gun?? You make me laugh. I'll bet you'll make everyone I tell this to, laugh. I almost appreciate the thought, but it isn't so. By the way, I sent Smith a inquiry about this just tonight after I realized that it's an assault revolver. Now THAT probably made you laugh. Interestingly enough, there are lots of reports of this happening. One talks about the cylinder lock spring being too weak on the early models, which mine is. I don't know how to cut and paste on my tablet, so I can't do that and show that specific discussion. Anyway, we'll see what Smith says when they reply.

[mcdaniel.mac]

I never take someone's self-assessed BAMFitude to be a reliable judgement of the person. It's nothing personal, but as you noted, I don't know you, I can't judge what's bravado and what's not. I've never encountered a revolver that would do that mechanically, but I have seen people do it by accident.

I could be wrong. Happens with enough regularity to keep me humble. You're right, we'll see what Smith says.


Edit: I thought I remembered reading about it. Apparently Smith put out a video addressing it. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/09/13/500-sw-double-taps/

[carlsonwayne]

The Smith video shows a single shot. No second shot in any form. The video with the girl makes a completely different double shot. Thats: bang, at least half a second passes, then bang. Mine, and if you go to YouTube and read the comments on the Smith video, and other peoples is bangbang, just like a two round burst would sound like. Do something more research, you'll find more people like me who know the difference of a double tap, and double fire with these things. Yes, lots of people do similar shots like that video. No, not everyone who has the double fire pulled twice. Next time you use a link to try discredit me, find one that has some credit to it, please.

[mcdaniel.mac]

I'm not trying to discredit you. I can't prove there's something wrong with your technique or that your revolver is fine. All I can do is offer my opinion, based on what the manufacturer says.

If you watch the video, they only loaded one round for safety, but you can see in the slow motion that the shooter's finger lifts off the trigger enough to reset it under the initial recoil impulse, and that before the recoil pulse is done the shooter has pulled the trigger again. The hammer is nearly out of frame, but you can see it drop a second time just barely. I don't know how fast that video was initially filmed, but i'll wager it's under half a second from the first click to the second.

Like I said, I could be wrong, but I can't find credible reports of someone who had a mechanical issue causing it.

I trust youtube comments as much as I trust the gentleman on South Grand who tells me Ihe needs a dollar for cab fare home. Youtube comments have told me that the prism my sprinkler makes in the sunlight is because of government mind control chemicals and that Nickelback was a great band. I'll believe an RMA or a repair order, though.

[apen]

I'm thankful that never happened to me. I had read up on that before I ever fired the first round. I skipped a chamber for the first few rounds in the beginning. I don't know how you shoot, but my shooting arm is locked and I use a much firmer grip than I do with my other handguns.

This may be one nobody has seen yet. If I were this guy I'd be sick to my stomach for a long time after seeing the video. It happens so fast he doesn't know what happened. The slow motion replay tells the story.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8NDGxzlfo4

[Markbo]

Carlson I apologize. My post was a little strongly worded and I.was out of line. I your gun is shooting a second round out of battery or a secondary/unplanned trigger.pull like that last video, is really immaterial. Either condition is unsafe. That kid almost blew his head off. You dont want that happening to yiu or anyone else. I still recommend a call and return with a detailed letter to S&W to make them figure it out and fix it - whatever the.problem is.

[dubber123]

My brother had an 8" .500 X frame for a while. We could never get it to stay locked consistently upon firing. While it never doubled, it unlocked, rotated backwards, thus leaving a fired cartridge to be brought back the next time around and the resulting "click" on the next hammer fall. It happened a LOT to both of us. I shoot an unported .475 Linebaugh with a 440 at 1,300+ fps, all from a gun that weighs POUNDs less. I get excellent accuracy, so it's not like I was afraid of that 5 pound .500.

The gun went back to S&W at least twice, and I tried my hand at beefing up the cylinder locking bolt spring, to no avail. The gun was sold to a shooter who had it's twin, right down to the unlocking problem. I watched a video of a 4" .500 performing the same stunt here on the forum. That makes 3 separate guns and 3 separate shooters, and I don't get out much ;)

The cartridge is awesome, and my brothers gun was super accurate. I don't trust the platform at all, so I will stick with my little .475 for now.

[apen]

Dubber, was that a recent revolver or was it some time ago. I have read about that problem as well. It seems most of those accounts were from the earlier days. I don't know if S&W ever addressed this in later models or not.....doesn't sound like they addressed it with you when you sent it back.

[dubber123]

It was some time ago, and it is possible S&W has figured out what was going on and fixed it in the newer editions. If I can find out what year it was made, I will post it. A neighbor has one from a similar time frame, and never had the same problem, He did limit himself primarily to 275 gr factory loads. He just sold it last week for $450 with dies and some components, and I would have bought it for that price just to give it another trial, but missed out. I have been tempted by the shorter unported models I have seen too.

[apen]

The last one was only 25 grains of 296 behind the Lee 440.

That's Way below any data I've seen with 296.

[apen]

Hahahaha! Good trick calrsonwade you are a clever one!

You should have GC'd it "just because"

[Whiterabbit]

25 grains is less than book loads for 500 JRH.

[carlsonwayne]

Just because it's lower than the books, doesn't mean it isn't safeor won't work. The books are guides, not the Gospel. Now before everyone freaks out, how do the guys who build wildcats even start? There's no books on them. Most of the time, from what I hear, have read, and have seen, they take the parent case and work from there. Or they find the closest dimensions and work from there. I've shot that same 440 cannon ball with four grains of Trail Boss. Sounds like a 22 pistol, and splatters like the 44 medium loads. Most times, working down will give worst case, a stuck bullet. Depending on powder, I'm sure. I've been told some powders with too much space have pressure spikes. I've never seen it or had it happen, yet, unlike SOME people (McDaniel) just because I've never seen it, or had it happen I still believe it may happen. If you're not comfortable going off the books, DON'T. If you are, be safe, watch for pressure signs, and be prepared to tap some sqibs out.
Markbo, don't worry about it. I'm fine with what you said, I just wanted to make it clear that what happens is two shots down the barrel with one trigger pull. I sent Smith a question/report on it yesterday. It's potentially unsafe. If someone listens to SOME people (McDaniel) and loosens their grip, it is unsafe. With over 1000 rounds through it, and it only happening three times, honestly, I like the odds. There's only four people who shoot this gun, three have had it happen, and the fourth has seen it twice. We make 100% of our backdrop, and keep a firm grip, as intelligent people do. As I said in one of the posts, we'll see what Smith has to say about it. I'm betting they'll replace the spring I keep hearing about, and the problem will never happen again. BTW, don't load those 440's with 42 grains of 296!! If you're lucky like I was, and you have the interchangeable ports, you'll spend a few hours picking lead out of your left cheek if you're right handed, or your right cheek if you're left handed. I don't know what happens with the fixed port. Oh, it was supposed to be 32 grains, but the one time I let someone else check the load... That'll never happen again.

[mcdaniel.mac]

I showed you a video from the manufacturer that shows the double-fire caused by trying to hold the trigger back. I suggested not trying to hold the trigger back, not to loosen your grip. You keep mentioning this spring thing, but the only thing I can find about a spring repair is to stop the cylinder from unlocking and back-spinning to put the freshly fired empty in the 2 o'clock position, so the next trigger pull drops the hammer on an empty.

You spend a lot of time calling other people stupid, but you haven't addressed what the video showed, and you don't appear to have read what I'm typing.

That's a bit rude, and you seem to be taking this all a bit personal. If I took it personal every time someone suggested a user error, I'd never have learned to shoot in the first place. You're calling someone else stupid who produced a video, but I guess I'm being rude, right?

I guess we'll see what the repair order says. It sure would be embarrassing if they send it back with no repair after you kept calling people stupid.

[carlsonwayne]

Try reading post 51. I DID address it.I have watched it 15 to 20 times and still only see one shot, one trigger pull, and recoil that moved the gun out of frame before any indication of a double tap happens. I reread my posts, and fail to find anywhere that I called anyone stupid, other than democrats, and that's actually a compliment to them.

[carlsonwayne]

I just watched it AGAIN, and paid attention to the cylinder. It never rotates after the shot. Maybe if I watch it enough, the barrel will start to rotate, and it'll transform into a transformer and get that double tap that isn't there. At this point I'm beginning to think you do need to be called stupid. You're taking it way more personal than I. Seeing things that aren't happening, thinking I should be embarrassed if Smith can't admit a problem and fix it, thinking you're being rude... Actually, I find you amusing. Kind of like watching the mentally disabled kid watching nothing and thinking something's there.

[mcdaniel.mac]

But you see the trigger get pulled twice, right?

If the manufacturer finds nothing wrong, what are you going to do next to find the problem?

[carlsonwayne]

Without a second fire, or the cylinder moving, your point is still invalid. Now, if you can find a video like that that shows a double fire from pulling the trigger twice, your point will be validated. For all I know, Smith made that video to "prove" the gun won't double fire. Companies try to cover up potential issues like that when they can. You won't believe it even if Smith gives an explanation and fixes it. Remember, you don't know me, and you don't trust (YouTube) commented. I've commented on YouTube. If, IF, Smith doe's explain and fix it, you'll accuse me of merely saying they did, just to validate myself. Remember though, I've never claimed double taps don't happen, just that that isn't the only way this happens. Until Smith contacts me, I'm done with you.

[44man]

WOW. I have explained the double fire many times. I will explain it again. The cylinder stop spring is too weak and inertia on the stop unlocks the cylinder. It will spin backwards and we have taken videos with magic marker on the cylinder that shows it. The hammer spring is too light and the hammer rebounds enough to fire a round under the hammer. If you load 5 and the cylinder rotates there will be no double as the first chamber will be empty but the next pull will just be a "click" when you get back to the fired chamber. If it did not double on the first shot, it will not happen for the rest of the cylinder. But you can come back to an empty chamber. Torque spins the cylinder backwards. Video shows a hammer near full cock from pressure in the primer. By the way a SA can have a hammer near full cock at ignition too but the design of the gun will not unlock the cylinder.
The 29 had a problem long ago, same thing but not the recoil of the .500. Many made a click for the next shot as the cylinder went out of rotation.
I have pictures of double hammer strikes. Some on the primer, others on the brass.158516 If recoil is harsh enough, this will be on a live round if there is one there.
I fixed the problems many times but it is hard to find the right springs. I would insert a lock tumbler spring INSIDE of a 29 cylinder stop spring. The .500 needs more.
IT IS NOT A DOUBLE TRIGGER PULL OR HOLDING THE TRIGGER BACK. It is a design thing with springs for a lighter pull.
I know the Smith inside and out. Not quite right with a .44, what would you expect from a .500? It is parts inertia. Poor design that should be changed.
I have seen the center cylinder unlocking pin that opens the front lock peen so bad from recoil on the 29 that I needed a stick and hammer to bang the thumb button to open the guns. Enhanced guns had a hardened pin and a stronger cylinder stop spring. That was all. We sent info to S&W and they still blamed a double trigger pull.
A friend took out the over head lights at the NRA indoor range with a .500 that doubled. That is when we took video that plainly showed rotation from a free cylinder.
From what I have read S&W does offer different springs now. Did they read us?

[carlsonwayne]

If I'm reading you right 44man (love your name!!), it is what I've been saying, right? I'm sure some of the double fire could be a double tap, but with mine, the trigger is fully back, NOT released and pulled again like McDaniel insists is the ONLY way this can happen. As I guess, something is loose, bent, or broken, causing the problem. What you said makes sense, and fits what I've been saying. Smith hasn't responded yet, but I'm betting they'll want to fix it due to liability issues. Now, how do we convince the simple minded what reality is? Thanks for that explanation too. You said clearly what I couldn't get clear.

[mcdaniel.mac]

WOW. I have explained the double fire many times. I will explain it again. The cylinder stop spring is too weak and inertia on the stop unlocks the cylinder. It will spin backwards and we have taken videos with magic marker on the cylinder that shows it. The hammer spring is too light and the hammer rebounds enough to fire a round under the hammer. If you load 5 and the cylinder rotates there will be no double as the first chamber will be empty but the next pull will just be a "click" when you get back to the fired chamber. If it did not double on the first shot, it will not happen for the rest of the cylinder. But you can come back to an empty chamber. Torque spins the cylinder backwards. Video shows a hammer near full cock from pressure in the primer. By the way a SA can have a hammer near full cock at ignition too but the design of the gun will not unlock the cylinder.
The 29 had a problem long ago, same thing but not the recoil of the .500. Many made a click for the next shot as the cylinder went out of rotation.
I have pictures of double hammer strikes. Some on the primer, others on the brass.158516 If recoil is harsh enough, this will be on a live round if there is one there.
I fixed the problems many times but it is hard to find the right springs. I would insert a lock tumbler spring INSIDE of a 29 cylinder stop spring. The .500 needs more.
IT IS NOT A DOUBLE TRIGGER PULL OR HOLDING THE TRIGGER BACK. It is a design thing with springs for a lighter pull.
I know the Smith inside and out. Not quite right with a .44, what would you expect from a .500? It is parts inertia. Poor design that should be changed.
I have seen the center cylinder unlocking pin that opens the front lock peen so bad from recoil on the 29 that I needed a stick and hammer to bang the thumb button to open the guns. Enhanced guns had a hardened pin and a stronger cylinder stop spring. That was all. We sent info to S&W and they still blamed a double trigger pull.
A friend took out the over head lights at the NRA indoor range with a .500 that doubled. That is when we took video that plainly showed rotation from a free cylinder.
From what I have read S&W does offer different springs now. Did they read us?
So when that happens, the next trigger pull would drop on an empty chamber, right?

[44man]

Yes. I found the double shot was from a live round under the hammer as the cylinder rotated to the next to be fired. The cylinder rotates back to the round that was under the hammer first. Leave that chamber empty by loading 5 only with an empty under the hammer and it will not double. But you can still get a click at the next.
IT IS NEVER A DOUBLE TAP ON THE TRIGGER.
The gun going forward after recoil will not have enough weight to force your finger to pull double action or you would have a full auto.
It is NOT you.
Nothing will be worn or broken but it IS NOT YOUR FAULT, it is only the design and not every gun will do it. Each gun is different and can go years with never a problem.
Same with the 29's that had problems, I had 5 or six over the years and never seen it but a friend had the one with double taps on primers. Yet it did not rotate back far.
Ir you have a .500 that doubles, S&W should fix it, darn if I can, never let them tell you that it is your fault.

[cherokeetracker]

I want to throw my 2 cents in here. I never did have the double tap thing happen with me, But heard about it. I had read several things about the 500, before loading, and also talked with John Ross on the phone twice to ask several questions. I had decided not to go real big in the bullet department or go hell bent for leather with the charges.

To offer some info with the 440 grain CP I found that Vhit N110 was more accurate than H110 there again MY GUN.
Also the 440 gr CP when used with TiteGroup 12-14 grains was very mild and I felt that i could shoot them all day. After my very first trip to the Range, I brought and used gloves for my shooting sessions. I tried loads in both the 4" and the 8 3/8 barreled pistols. The blast from some of the loads can get annoying. FWIW I picked up one of the H&R rifles in 500 and several times the rifle would break open on me from the recoil. (Even after slamming it shut)

As far as the barrel and cylinder gap The specs (Range from .004 -.010 ) being as large as .010 blew me away. S&W told me my gun was in specs with a .007 cylinder gap. I suppose you all have seen the you tube video of the guy cutting carrots with his S&W 500? He holds it up by the cylinder and the blast cuts the carrot. John Ross spoke about this,( the larger cylinder gap) but It was never mentioned about tying up a cylinder from lead.

[Clay M]

I have the 500 S&W. It likes the RCBS 400 gr cast bullet and 2400 powder.
The only problem I had on the S&W is the cylinder would reverse under recoil.
I installed a heavier Wolff cylinder stop spring.

The gun is hard on my wrist shooing off a bench.
The thing I like about 2400 is you can reduce it without getting into the pressure problems of ball powders.

[tygar]

Dam, so far none of my .460s or 500s have done this. I have shot max loads a few times but tend to shoot mid range for practice/target.

I do think I remember one of my 29s back in the 60s that may have had the problem but not sure. In any event I've had a good 50 of them & with no problems.

[44man]

Not every gun will do it but if it does you are in for a surprise. A full auto for 2 shots can set you back a few paces. I have never seen a 29 go "click" either though there were reports. I have seen double strikes from the pin but never full rotation. Wimp wrist? I don't know.
I still love the S&W and it is just a small thing that can be fixed. Even the .500 is just a simple spring.

[apen]

Here is another one I found that demonstrates Dubbers amd 44 man account of the cylinder spinning backwards.

Guy fires 4...click....the next guy finds one one in the cylinder when he goes to load it.

The date on that video is recent...don't know if it's a recent revolver or not. It's a shame this revolver is relegated to shooting pumpkins at 10 yards....that's all you see.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbNazjkt-uE


I'm going to shoot at 500M soon.....just not had the opportunity yet....rain...and range tied up due to club events.

[dubber123]

I had one lucky string where it went bang-click-bang-click for a full cylinder. I tried boring the pocket in the cylinder stop to a larger size and substituting a heavier coil, larger diameter spring, but it didn't help. It sounds as if one is now available to fix this issue.

It was a very accurate gun, I think it would be well suited to shooting 500 meters with the right boolit design. Let us know how it does for you.

[44man]

Here is another one I found that demonstrates Dubbers amd 44 man account of the cylinder spinning backwards.

Guy fires 4...click....the next guy finds one one in the cylinder when he goes to load it.

The date on that video is recent...don't know if it's a recent revolver or not. It's a shame this revolver is relegated to shooting pumpkins at 10 yards....that's all you see.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbNazjkt-uE


I'm going to shoot at 500M soon.....just not had the opportunity yet....rain...and range tied up due to club events.
Funny video but not a double tap. Notice it was the first shot! From then on it was one shot. There is no way a gun will fire again by holding the trigger back. The cylinder turned to the live round and hammer bounce set it off.

[carlsonwayne]

Smith replied finally. For some reason, I feel no embarrassment. First line said, "most instances of double firing is a double tap due to recoil." Second line said, "check and make sure the strain screw is tight." I checked it and replied, "The screw is tight. How would that cause me to pull the trigger twice?" They replied, "we suggest sending your firearm in for inspection, there may be a bad spring or other cause." They also gave a form to fill out for a prepaid return label. Now can anyone (McDaniel) explain why they would tell me to check a screw, and then recommend that I send it in because of a possible spring, or other, problem? Maybe explain why I should be embarrassed?? Oh, wait, I was supposed to be embarrassed if they gave a different answer blaming me and not the gun. Maybe someone else should be embarrassed for accusing me of stupidity when I knew what was really happening, especially in my own case, and with the others corroborating what I said. Never blame someone for something unless you have cold hard facts. Your proof was a video that doesn't show proof of anything, in my opinion. My proof is the corroborating info from others, and Smith telling me to send it in to be inspected for spring and/or other issues. Thank you very much!

[mcdaniel.mac]

The only one calling people names was you, hoss.

Let me know what Smith says. Interesting that the screw they told you to check was already tight.

[RJM52]

In 2003 I was visiting a friend who works for Dakota Arms in SD. He took me across the street to CorBon and was give a great tour by Peter Pi Jr. While down in their shooting range he showed me a couple of divots in the cement pipe just ahead of the firing line where a .500 S&W had doubled on the test shooter...

I have a 4" and have decided that the best grain weight for me is 350... There are lots of good jacketed bullets and molds... My loads are going between 1100-1400 fps and will stop anything I'll ever encounter. Also picked up a 20" TC Encore barrel and it is a hoot to shoot.

The first 500 I shot was a friend's brothers very early 8". He had some 440 grain Cast Performance bullets with a full charge of H110. I shot two lined up BBQ propane tanks...the bullet went through both sides of the first tank and into the second leaving a big dent on the backside but didn't come out... It was MUCH more pleasant to shoot than the FA 454 I had...the .454 went down the road and I bought a 4" 500 shortly after they came out... It was "used"...the previous owner fired one round and sold it...

Bob

[carlsonwayne]

One of the few insults anyone has ever pulled on me is what you called me. Another is Tex. I'm not a horse or Texan. I am hostile now, though. BUT, you got me thinking, wondering, pondering... That screw is the one on the bottom of the grip, right? If it's not, then I need to know where it is. I can't find any loose screws, except the ones in my head that is. It would really suck to send it back only to find out I checked the wrong screw(s). By the way, I still can't find where I called anyone except democrats any names. Oh, are you saying that YOU are stupider than democrats? That's the only way I could have called anyone names. It does make sense now...

[Whiterabbit]

I am hostile now, though. ..

We noticed.

[44man]

The strain screw is at the front bottom of the grip frame. It must never be loosened to change trigger pull. The screw is there to hold the spring against the grip frame and is loosened to remove the spring ONLY.
I have found many guns where the screw was fooled with, ground down, etc. Don't do it, the spring should be tight against the grip frame. The screws purpose is to hold the spring under full tension and keep it in the gun.

[carlsonwayne]

That's the one I checked first, before a ******* comment got me wondering if it was the right one. That one and ALL the others I could find (I'm betting I got them all, unless there's some in the cylinder and barrel.) are tight. Thanks for your support and assistance without being all offended, offensive, and judgemental. We need more like us, and less like that other guy. Just because something seems impossible, that doesn't mean it is.