Annealing experts needed

[str8shot426]

Please comment,

I decided to try my hand at this to prolong my brass life a bit. These are a random sample of .243 win I did today. http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/12/20/daf42870e09ce7922f1f34637da66fe0.jpg

[mckenziedrums]

Did the brass glow red at any point? That looks like it's mighty well done just from that photo.

[dragon813gt]

It's always hard to tell from pics because different brands of brass react differently. You really need to use a product like Tempilaq. At a minimum the annealing is uneven from case to case and comes down further than necessary.

[country gent]

Its hard to tell from pics whats what per say. Heres how I did it with a propane torch. Set torch on floor or blocks to a comfortable hieght. set it so the angled head is pointing away from you. This allows the flame to lick a longer area of the case. Set a bowl or small bucket of water beside it, perferably a few inches shorter than the torch. I used a power screw driver with a socket to hold the case so it could be rotated in the flame easily. Insert case into socket start rotation and insert into flame watching for the blue heat change to show and dump into water, I actually can do this dipping the socket into the water to remove any heat build up there. A light blue is all thats really needed. the quench isnt really needed but helps stop the heat transfer to the case head and allows cases to be handled quicker. Annealing isnt hard to do but must be done consistantly as to temp and coverage. On some cases I use a dipper lead pot with a rack and filled with sand to anneal cases. set temp warm up and let stabilize. insert cases in rack and when full remove one inserting another. Very consistant as to time temp and area. No real color change to this method as theres no oxedations formed. Just the heat line and it will polish off after a couple cleanings.

[str8shot426]

It never did glow red. It was pretty tough to get an even color.
Did I do more harm than good?
I used a socket and extension but turned by hand. Quenched in water.

[dragon813gt]

W/out Tempilaq you have no idea what the temp of the brass was. If it didn't get hot enough you didn't do anything. If you overheated it then it's now to soft.

[GRUMPA]

It never did glow red. It was pretty tough to get an even color.
Did I do more harm than good?
I used a socket and extension but turned by hand. Quenched in water.

If you anneal in a brightly lit room it's harder to notice any color change, even harder if done outside. Cosmetic appearance is not all that hard to achieve, and like dragon813gt mentioned things like Tempilaq helps take any guess work out of it.

I run an annealing machine, and there's variables like tank temperature, temperature of the brass as well as the carousel temperature which I monitor. It's a bit of a science but with practice and patience it can be done on a smaller scale....

[Geezer in NH]

They look pretty. Finding if it worked requires shooting. I just heat them in a pan of water with a propane torch and knock them over when the show red in the neck.

I have some brass with 25-30 shots so it must work. That is my proof.

[str8shot426]

They look pretty. Finding if it worked requires shooting. I just heat them in a pan of water with a propane torch and knock them over when the show red in the neck.

I have some brass with 25-30 shots so it must work. That is my proof.

That is how I plan on checking them. Just wanted to make sure I didn't make them unsafe by annealing past the shoulder.

[dragon813gt]

I will say it again. W/out Tempilaq you have no way of knowing. It comes in many temp ratings. You can use one of the lower temp one on the outside of the case. This is the only way to know if you over heated the case head. Annealing isn't some magical act. You need to reach a certain neck temperature to refine the grain structure while not over heating the case head.

I did it for a long time w/ the socket method. But I used Tempilaq because I didn't want to destroy a case. I will use it again to dial in the annealing machine I ordered. It's the only way to insure the neck was heated up enough and the case head stayed cool enough.

[str8shot426]

What temperature tempilaq would you recommend for annealing? I will pick some up.

[str8shot426]

That is how I plan on checking them. Just wanted to make sure I didn't make them unsafe by annealing past the shoulder.

None were dis colored anywhere near the case head. I could hold them for a couple seconds before I had to drop them. I can't believe the brass got hot enough to weaken the head area.

Just looking for some reassurance before I shoot them or scrap em.

[dragon813gt]

You want the necks to reach 750. You can use this on the body to make sure it didn't reach that temp. Some kits come w/ 475. The theory is that if the body hits 475 the neck reached the proper temp. It's a lot easier to just use the correct temp. You can use one of the lower temp ones to see just how hot it got. But that becomes cost prohibitive.

[Bjornb]

Check out this website: http://www.cartridgeanneal.com
Their annealing setup is not a "machine", but a very inexpensive case holder that you use to rotate the case neck into and out of the torch flame. A handy guy could make this from materials at hand. I bought it, and it's very user friendly. I used Tempilaq supplied with the kit, and after a few dozen cases I had the timing down to the point where I didn't need it anymore.

[John Boy]

The critical time and temperature at which the grain structure reforms into something suitable for case necks is 662 degrees (F) for some 15 minutes. A higher temperature, say from 750 to 800 degrees, will do the same job in a few seconds. If brass is allowed to reach temperatures higher than this (regardless of the time), it will be made irretrievably and irrevocably too soft.

Brass will begin to glow a faint orange at about 950 degrees (F). Even if the heating is stopped at a couple of hundred degrees below this temperature, the damage has been done--it will be too soft
The Art & Science of Annealing ... http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

Rule of Thumb: In a dark room - when the color of the brass turns a bluish green, the temperature is 625 - 650 F. and the case is annealed


It never did glow red. It was pretty tough to get an even color.
Did I do more harm than good? You did good

[Geezer in NH]

Wow, I anneal when I start getting cracks in the neck with a batch of brass. Turn the neck and shoulder red then dunk, keep the rest of the case cool as in under the water.

I have never needed templack or any other aid to do this. However the nerd computer types need more do what ever floats your boat but trust me 5-6 cases per hundred will still go bad.

Good luck.

[dragon813gt]

Nerd computer types? You mean the people that actually understand the science behind it? You are free to do whatever you want. But there is no need for misinformation to be repeated over and over. I guess the ammo companies just wing it when they anneal their cases :rolleyes:

[tygar]

I use the Tempilaq to set my parameters. I count how long it takes for a given case, then after I know the time frame, I just count & dump into water. I use a drill with aluminum holders for turning.

[Love Life]

I use 800 degree Tempilaq and drill with socket to hold case. Dump into water with citric acid and when you tumble you'll never know you annealed.

[Doc Highwall]

Here is a good article on annealing brass cases. I am providing two links to annealing machines, the first one by Bench-Source I already own, and the Annealing Made Perfect will be delivered the first of January.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/annealing/

http://bench-source.com/id81.html

http://www.ampannealing.com/

[slim1836]

I use a homemade annealing machine, use 750 degree Tempilaq on a few cases and time them until they melt. Then i set my machine to that time average and go. I time cases again when I change brands. I record the times of case brands so I can repeat as necessary. I do not let my cases get glowing as neck tension is lost at that point.

That is what works for me. I am always open to suggestions of improvement.

YMMV

Slim

[Doc Highwall]

slim1836, I use the Tempilaq 750 degree also for my Bench Source annealing machine.

I just wanted something more precise for my bench rest guns which is why I bought the Annealing Made Perfect which uses induction with a magnetic field, so there are no coils to cool, or burn out.

[David2011]

Brass will begin to glow a faint orange at about 950 degrees (F). Even if the heating is stopped at a couple of hundred degrees below this temperature, the damage has been done--it will be too soft
The Art & Science of Annealing ... http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html


Interesting article except that it perpetuates the lead vapor myth and says that a drop of sweat falling onto molten lead will cause to to splatter everywhere. . . :?

David

[dragon813gt]

USPS shows my Annealeez left on my front porch this morning :) Won't be home until later in the week but I have a long weekend to get it up and running.

[str8shot426]

I don't shoot enough to warrant buying a machine. But if I did need 2-300 cases annealed, I know of at least one member that offers services.

[dragon813gt]

Opened the box but bronchitis has me down and out at the moment. First thing I'm doing is removing the stickers. I do this w/ a lot of products but these ones really bother me.
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa39/dragon813gt/TimeToMakeAmmo/B08D1582-DDD1-4378-BBD1-44F397442A04.jpg (http://s198.photobucket.com/user/dragon813gt/media/TimeToMakeAmmo/B08D1582-DDD1-4378-BBD1-44F397442A04.jpg.html)

[Doc Highwall]

Don't remove the sticker by the speed control.

[dragon813gt]

That goes w/out saying. Even if I did. All it would take is a mark of L and H to know which way to turn it ;)

[corbinace]

So, do we have THE perfect temperature? At Midway I see many different Tempilac temperatures and even on this thread I see several temps mentioned. The various other threads also do not provide a consensus.

The Accurateshooter article says that "even a couple hundred degrees below the damage has been done" when speaking of 950 degrees. According to this 750 is too much. Doc and Slim say that is what they use, surely they are not ruining cases.

I do know that my eyeball method for 41 Swiss cases was inaccurate as the cases mouths are so soft that they can not be dropped or they are badly deformed:oops:. I used cases in a sparkplug socket on a drill motor over torch until a faint glow.

The bottom line for me is that I do not have a bunch of $25 bills laying about that I want to waste experimenting to find what is best, when others already know the answer.

[kokomokid]

I anneal in a very dark room to the point that my eyes have to adjust. I spin the brass in a socket with a cordless drill till I get my first color change in a 1 inch blue flame. Even if you have the best annealer that money can buy you still have to adjust the flame and time in the flame.

[EDG]

Here is what I do.

I use a propane torch with about a 5/8" head and the central flame point is about 1" long
I spin the case with a battery powered drill at about 250 RPM using one of the old Lee trimmer holders with a shank.

The flame cone is point at about a 30 degrees off perpendicular to the case axis - pointing to the shoulder.
The case is spinning when I put the flame on it. The central flame cone is about 1/2" to 1/4" from the neck of the case.

The flame first touches the neck about 1/8" from the case mouth and I start moving the flame toward the neck while the case is spinning.
I do this in a dim room but it does not have to be too dark for safety.

I count to 3 and start looking for a aquamarine or turquoise color to move down the neck. I move the flame over the shoulder so the aquamarine
moves down over the shoulder about 1/4". All of this occurs between a count of 3 and a count of 4 depending on your torch and technique.
This is for a .30 caliber neck.
A 45-70 takes a little longer and a .222 less.

What you are looking for is that aquamarine color that actually appears to be wet with water vapor.
When you get that color you are finished.

That color happens between the gray green and the gray blue About 620 F on the attached chart. If you want to error - do so on the blue (cooler) color. When you see the straw color coming get ready for the wet aquamarine to show up. I suspect that any thing between the straw and the wet aquamarine will do if you keep it consistent. It will look just like military factory annealing.

While the drill is running >>>battery powered only dunk the case in water or spin against a wet cloth or wet sponge.
then you can safely handle it. Set it aside and go to the next one.

Practice this technique on some junk cases and then mash the neck with common pliers to see how strong the brass is. You don't want it to crush like a paper soda straw. From here keep practicing until you have about the right color and the case is stress relieved yet still strong.
It is not like typing. You have to look at what you are doing, count at the same time and use your judgment on each case. I have done hundreds this way and never over heated a single case.


http://www.uddeholm.com/files/Temperature_guide.pdf

[Huvius]

One observation of your original picture is that there is some difference in the distribution of heat. All go down past the shoulder so my feeling is they will be just fine. Doesn't look like they got too hot.
Another is that there looks to be some variation in case length, neck length and shoulder form. Are these all fired from the same chamber? I ask, because one factor in prolonging case life is to keep brass separated for use in specific rifles. I wouldn't think that you would find too much variation in 243Win chambers but I can tell you there is a huge amount in the 303British from my experience.
Also, eventhough there is probably one or two perfected methods of annealing, there are also many more primitive ways which will work just fine.
For decades, it was the "heat until you cannot hold it any longer and drop the case directly into a bucket of water". That is what I did for a while with really big cases, but on smaller cases it will not give good results - especially after you hold on to one too long and your fingertip sensation is a little, um, compromised...
The drop into the water is to stop the heat from getting any further down the case, it does not effect the actual annealing of the brass. Heated brass will anneal the same whether cooled rapidly in water or simply allowed to cool in open air.
With this in mind, the standing in ice water method is where I ended up as I only do small batches too.
This prevents the heat from getting down the case body and gives you a nice even heat line. No knocking the cases over and if they still have the spent primers in them, there is no moisture allowed into the case. This is good if you dry tumble or want to move immediately to the deprime/size stage without having to dry out the interior of the cases. The best way I have found to dry the inside is to put them all in the oven at 200deg for a while which takes time. Of course, if you wet tumble, you're gonna dry some way.
My point is, on whether you did it too much, too little or just enough, the proof is in the pudding or shooting in this case.

[tjones]

It's the copper content that makes the most difference. It seems no amount of annealing WIN brass can save the cases from work hardening and splitting . Norma brass is the answer if the brass is available. It seems the annealing machines are a new item but they are not. It's the $500. + which is the killer. Copper prices are really down and that may make a difference eventually. -tj

[str8shot426]

One observation of your original picture is that there is some difference in the distribution of heat. All go down past the shoulder so my feeling is they will be just fine. Doesn't look like they got too hot.
Another is that there looks to be some variation in case length, neck length and shoulder form. Are these all fired from the same chamber? I ask, because one factor in prolonging case life is to keep brass separated for use in specific rifles. I wouldn't think that you would find too much variation in 243Win chambers but I can tell you there is a huge amount in the 303British from my experience.
Also, eventhough there is probably one or two perfected methods of annealing, there are also many more primitive ways which will work just fine.
For decades, it was the "heat until you cannot hold it any longer and drop the case directly into a bucket of water". That is what I did for a while with really big cases, but on smaller cases it will not give good results - especially after you hold on to one too long and your fingertip sensation is a little, um, compromised...
The drop into the water is to stop the heat from getting any further down the case, it does not effect the actual annealing of the brass. Heated brass will anneal the same whether cooled rapidly in water or simply allowed to cool in open air.
With this in mind, the standing in ice water method is where I ended up as I only do small batches too.
This prevents the heat from getting down the case body and gives you a nice even heat line. No knocking the cases over and if they still have the spent primers in them, there is no moisture allowed into the case. This is good if you dry tumble or want to move immediately to the deprime/size stage without having to dry out the interior of the cases. The best way I have found to dry the inside is to put them all in the oven at 200deg for a while which takes time. Of course, if you wet tumble, you're gonna dry some way.
My point is, on whether you did it too much, too little or just enough, the proof is in the pudding or shooting in this case.

This was the answer I was looking for. Thanks! The cases were random batch of unknown origin. I was going to anneal first, and then go through the FL sizing and trimming steps. That should explain the case variation. I think I'm on the right track, just need to verify temp and consistency.