.44mag Sizing Die Issue?

[dkf]

I have a Lee carbide 4 die set for .44spec/.44mag I got for a gift. Lately I have been using some .4295" and .430" jacketed bullets. Well I have notice the case has next to no tension (press fit) with the bullet. Right out of the sizing die I can start the bullet with my fingers and push it into the case without much force. The .4295" bullets obviously slide in just a tad easier than the .430". The .4295" is 250gr Sierra and the .430" are 240gr XTPs. Does the same thing with Starline or RP brass.(only 2 brands I have)

Anyone else have this issue?

I ran into this with a Lee carbide set in .380 which Lee said was "within spec" but 90-95gr jacketed bullets still slid in easy. I ended up buying a U die for .380. I am starting to think Lee sizes some of their dies for cast bullets and not jacketed.

[9.3X62AL]

Interesting. I have largely stopped using RCBS tungsten-carbide sizing dies in both 44 Spec/Mag and 45 Colt due to their dimensions being entirely too small for loading cast bullets. My finished ammo looked like "Coke bottles" after excessive sizing followed by excessive expansion. Case life was shortened markedly also, with longitudinal cracking after 4-5 refills in 45 Colt cases run at 1873 pressures/velocities. I scrapped ALL of my 45 Colt brass, and started over with new brass in a steel RCBS sizer die that gave .476"-.477" finish diameter instead of .468"-.469". The Colt sizer gets used on 45 ACP now, the 45 ACP sizer was over-small also @ .466"-.467".

It might be a fair statement to say that RCBS tool specs cater to their corporate partner Speer's bullet offerings, while Lee's tool specs favor their own moulds and the castings poured through them.

[dkf]

I see Lee has an undersized .44mag sizing die. When I was having issues with my .380 die and the guy said my die was in spec I asked him why they make an undersize die then.(he told me I should buy the U die) He said "because some people use undersized bullets". I never heard of people using bullet under SAAMI specified size, larger diameter (like cast) yes. I won't be contacting Lee this time around because I found them less than useless the last time I contacted them wiht the .380 issue.

[MarkP]

Do you have a method of accurately measuring the I.D. of the die? Look to see if the carbide nib is split. The carbide should be a press fit within the steel die if not they can split. This will usually cause a longitudinal line or scratch on the case wall.

As stated above it is usually the opposite issue; dies size too much and when loaded your cases have a wasp waist appearance where the bullet bulges out the mouth ans narrows in the mid section and widens near the case head rim area.

[dragon813gt]

They probably have the undersized die because of the dimensional differences between 44 Mag revolvers and rifles. For the life of me I don't know why there are two different standards.

[Hickory]

If you want to off load that die because it is not useful to you, I think I could make use of it for the new rifle I acquired a few months ago.
The boolits diameter needed for this rifle needs to be .433". The sizer die I have now sizes the brass too much for lead boolits.

[dkf]

Do you have a method of accurately measuring the I.D. of the die? Look to see if the carbide nib is split. The carbide should be a press fit within the steel die if not they can split. This will usually cause a longitudinal line or scratch on the case wall.

As stated above it is usually the opposite issue; dies size too much and when loaded your cases have a wasp waist appearance where the bullet bulges out the mouth ans narrows in the mid section and widens near the case head rim area.

The carbide sizing ring is intact. I don't have the right size gauge pins here now but I have a set of small hole gauges. The top of the carbide ring (its tapered) is between .4505"-.451".

The die may have 200 cases ran through it so there is not any wear issues.


They probably have the undersized die because of the dimensional differences between 44 Mag revolvers and rifles. For the life of me I don't know why there are two different standards.

That would make sense for .44mag but what he told me was for .380. I can't think why someone would want to use a bullet smaller than .355" for .380 acp.


If you want to off load that die because it is not useful to you, I think I could make use of it for the new rifle I acquired a few months ago.
The boolits diameter needed for this rifle needs to be .433". The sizer die I have now sizes the brass too much for lead boolits.

I'll hold onto the die because it does work well for my .432" cast bullets. The way it sounds I'll just have to buy another sizing die for jacketed.

[fatnhappy]

Interesting. I have largely stopped using RCBS tungsten-carbide sizing dies in both 44 Spec/Mag and 45 Colt due to their dimensions being entirely too small for loading cast bullets. My finished ammo looked like "Coke bottles" after excessive sizing followed by excessive expansion. Case life was shortened markedly also, with longitudinal cracking after 4-5 refills in 45 Colt cases run at 1873 pressures/velocities. I scrapped ALL of my 45 Colt brass, and started over with new brass in a steel RCBS sizer die that gave .476"-.477" finish diameter instead of .468"-.469". The Colt sizer gets used on 45 ACP now, the 45 ACP sizer was over-small also @ .466"-.467".

It might be a fair statement to say that RCBS tool specs cater to their corporate partner Speer's bullet offerings, while Lee's tool specs favor their own moulds and the castings poured through them.


That mirrors my experience Sir. I no longer use my RCBS die as I haven't loaded a jacketed bullet in a .44 case since Clinton's impeachment.

[Mal Paso]

.4495 was what I lapped my 44 Carbide Sizers too. Even the RCBS Cowboy was tight on .429 Jackets.

I think they shorted you a few thousandths on that die.

Like what was said, except for yours, they are too small. :-)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?186955-Open-up-a-Carbide-Sizing-Die-in-15-minutes

[W.R.Buchanan]

They probably have the undersized die because of the dimensional differences between 44 Mag revolvers and rifles. For the life of me I don't know why there are two different standards.

Dragon: the reason why is pressure. .44Magnum is a 35,000 psi cartridge when factory loaded. It is designed to be fired in a Revolver and as such there is less pressure built up before the bullet leaves the barrel and also there is that barrel/cylinder gap. In short, the amount of time the gun must contain that pressure is less than for a rifle.

Rifles all have longer barrels and there is no place for the pressure to bleed off. It all goes out the end. Since the pressure must be contained for a longer time they decided to open the barrel up a little to help. Most .44 Rifles are Leverguns which relatively speaking, are weaker actions than say Bolt Guns. This is also the primary reason why Marlin has stuck with the 1:38 twist also. Less pressure.

Revolver is .429 +/-.002. Rifle is .431+/- .002

Randy

[dkf]

I ordered a Lee Undersize .44mag die. I'll have to see how it works when I get it.

[DougGuy]

If you don't get any satisfaction for the new undersize dies coming, I can make you an expander that won't bell the case mouth out as large, it would give more neck tension if it was made smaller. Won't do much good if they send you an undersize set of dies and leave the stock factory expander in there. All this stuff has to be made to work together.

A neat Uberti "Old West" model came into the herd here last spring, it had .4565" cylinder throats. I had to hone out a push through sizer to .456" had to make a special oversize expander, but it works very well with the 454190 boolits that drop at .457" everything just "fits."

[Nueces]

I've posted this some years ago in another thread, but I've found joy from the Lee pistol style factor crimp dies, wherein oversize carbide rings are used. Using these as primary sizing dies, with the seating guts removed, can leave a larger case diameter, suitable for fat boolits.

I now have about a dozen 45 caliber sizing dies, steel and carbide, from all companies. I measured each and made a chart, so I can pick the right die for 45 Auto Rim or 45 Schofield or 45 Colt or 455, with slug diameters from 0.452" to 0.456".

What a world.

[9.3X62AL]

I don't have the array of choices in 45 caliber that Nueces lists, but I have gathered what works to serve thetoys I have. Those of us who slug/mike/pin-gauge the critical dimensions of our war toys in the context of SAAMI specs can derive better performance (read that as "zero leading" and "consistent velocities") with our poured projectiles. Treating your sideiron with the same due diligence we give to our rifles and their home-made bullets pays off in a number of ways.

[Char-Gar]

Interesting. I have largely stopped using RCBS tungsten-carbide sizing dies in both 44 Spec/Mag and 45 Colt due to their dimensions being entirely too small for loading cast bullets. My finished ammo looked like "Coke bottles" after excessive sizing followed by excessive expansion. Case life was shortened markedly also, with longitudinal cracking after 4-5 refills in 45 Colt cases run at 1873 pressures/velocities. I scrapped ALL of my 45 Colt brass, and started over with new brass in a steel RCBS sizer die that gave .476"-.477" finish diameter instead of .468"-.469". The Colt sizer gets used on 45 ACP now, the 45 ACP sizer was over-small also @ .466"-.467".

It might be a fair statement to say that RCBS tool specs cater to their corporate partner Speer's bullet offerings, while Lee's tool specs favor their own moulds and the castings poured through them.

For the same reasons you stated, I quite using carbide sizing dies some years back. All of my handgun loading is done with steel sizing dies. The advantages gained is worth the extra hassle of using case lube.

[Iowa Fox]

For the same reasons you stated, I quite using carbide sizing dies some years back. All of my handgun loading is done with steel sizing dies. The advantages gained is worth the extra hassle of using case lube.

Even with the slipperiest case lube I can find I can hardly get the cases in and out of steel dies

[dkf]

I got the .44mag undersize die today and loaded up 15 rounds. It fixed the issue and does size the case a good bit smaller. The included expander is a little big though so I'll need to make a smaller one. I guess I'll just pick up a seating die yet and have a turret for jacketed and a turret for cast. I also picked up one of Lees collet crimp dies in .44 to try. Right now I am using the .44 FCD with the ring knocked out.

[Char-Gar]

Even with the slipperiest case lube I can find I can hardly get the cases in and out of steel dies

Something is amiss with your dies, press or case lube. I don't find the use of steel dies and lube to require much if any more effort than carbide dies. I am talking single stage or turret presses. I have no experience with those gawd awful progressive gizmos.

[Motor]

Maybe dumb question but could you have been using the FCD as the size die?

I know a guy who once mistakenly used a size die as an FCD. Don't ask. :(

Motor

[DougGuy]

I got the .44mag undersize die today and loaded up 15 rounds. It fixed the issue and does size the case a good bit smaller. The included expander is a little big though so I'll need to make a smaller one. I guess I'll just pick up a seating die yet and have a turret for jacketed and a turret for cast. I also picked up one of Lees collet crimp dies in .44 to try. Right now I am using the .44 FCD with the ring knocked out.

If you have a lathe you can make the expander they sent you smaller, I'd do it for you if you don't get anywhere with it on your own.

I like the collet crimp dies but they need to be tweaked a bit to get them right. They have a fairly wide crimp ring that will actually crimp the sides of the boolit in front of the case mouth if you leave them as shipped from Lee. The crimp band needs to be narrower, and it needs to be brought down right onto the case mouth. Here is a thread I posted about modifying these dies so they work where they are needed to work on the case and not on the boolit. Lots of pics too.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?201449-Question-about-type-of-crimp-required&p=2239315&viewfull=1#post2239315

Two on the right are roll crimped with the seating die, two on the left are collet crimped with the modified die. Boolit is the Lee C430-310-RF.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/DSC01964_zps17b81bf2.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/DSC01964_zps17b81bf2.jpg.html)

Hard alloys don't need this much crimp, the softer an alloy is, the more crimp it needs in a hard recoiling magnum load. This type of crimp would be highly recommended in a situation where you may be faced with dangerous game and there can be NO boolit pull whatsoever.

Another thought, if you are going to use the collet crimp die you might end up with two of those because one die may not work on both your boolit diameters. It might, just have to see. You may need to file the slots in the collet so it will close up far enough to crimp the .429" loads properly. It may close all the way before it applies enough crimp.

Edit: Both the collet crimp dies I got from Lee needed disassembling and cleaning before they could be used. Soaked in oil and some extra added bits of metal from machining. To disassemble find a socket or a punch that fits in the die body fairly snug, if you have a Lee single stage press, thread it into the press, put the punch in the top and smack it with a hammer. They are pretty hard to get apart. I guess you could use a turret press too.

[r1kk1]

Even with the slipperiest case lube I can find I can hardly get the cases in and out of steel dies

Something is wrong. 500 Linebaugh goes in and out with ease. Only CH4D and Hornady make dies for this. RCBS makes a set but they are 1" dies.

take care

r1kk1

[dkf]

If you have a lathe you can make the expander they sent you smaller, I'd do it for you if you don't get anywhere with it on your own.

I like the collet crimp dies but they need to be tweaked a bit to get them right. They have a fairly wide crimp ring that will actually crimp the sides of the boolit in front of the case mouth if you leave them as shipped from Lee. The crimp band needs to be narrower, and it needs to be brought down right onto the case mouth. Here is a thread I posted about modifying these dies so they work where they are needed to work on the case and not on the boolit. Lots of pics too.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?201449-Question-about-type-of-crimp-required&p=2239315&viewfull=1#post2239315

Two on the right are roll crimped with the seating die, two on the left are collet crimped with the modified die. Boolit is the Lee C430-310-RF.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/DSC01964_zps17b81bf2.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/DSC01964_zps17b81bf2.jpg.html)

Hard alloys don't need this much crimp, the softer an alloy is, the more crimp it needs in a hard recoiling magnum load. This type of crimp would be highly recommended in a situation where you may be faced with dangerous game and there can be NO boolit pull whatsoever.

Another thought, if you are going to use the collet crimp die you might end up with two of those because one die may not work on both your boolit diameters. It might, just have to see. You may need to file the slots in the collet so it will close up far enough to crimp the .429" loads properly. It may close all the way before it applies enough crimp.

Edit: Both the collet crimp dies I got from Lee needed disassembling and cleaning before they could be used. Soaked in oil and some extra added bits of metal from machining. To disassemble find a socket or a punch that fits in the die body fairly snug, if you have a Lee single stage press, thread it into the press, put the punch in the top and smack it with a hammer. They are pretty hard to get apart. I guess you could use a turret press too.

I have a machine shop at my disposal so the expander is not a problem.

Thanks for the info on the crimp die. I'll see how it works and modify if need be.