Repairing a damaged action

[andym79]

Hi guys, I have two nice Winchester 1892 in 38-40 and 32-20, I wanted to add a 218 bee to the mix. A couple of months ago I bought a cheap $160 1892 in 32-20 minus the apparently shot out barrel.

The rifle was bought unseen, as it was too far away to view, advertised with a "functional action, stock, magazine tube and forearm" everything but the barrel and apparently suitable for a rebuild.

Well the seller didn't exactly lie, but lets just say there was not full disclosure.

Somebody tried to replace that shot out barrel and lets just say the didn't do well at all. I am no gunsmith but I have changed a few lever barrels and its not rocket science. Looks to me like they didnt open the bolt when they wound the barrel off and the extractor and bolt decided to take a bit of the receiver out!

This rifle was bought to be rebarreled for a 218 bee, I am not sure that is actually an option now I have it however.

I had a good barrel spare in 30-30, knowing that the thread was the same on a 94 as a 92 I wound it in threaded fine and clocked up right, so the thread is undamaged!

The question I am asking is this rifle repairable, could some gunsmiths fix it or did I end up just buying spare parts?

[elk hunter]

If the receiver isn't twisted or cracked and the bolt runs forward and back and locks up without binding it's probably salvageable. I'd take it to a gunsmith and get their opinion.

[Smoke4320]

I would PM this to member goodsteel for some advice

[pietro]

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I can't visualize the power/torque Bubba applied to the receiver to chip the top of the ring out & bugger up the bolt.

I would have both the receiver & the bolt Magnafluxed, to check if there's hidden damage to either, besides the visible damage.

Even if a real gunsmith (not some parts-changer) qualifies the rifle as safe to be fired, I would limit the Bee to cat-sneeze loads.

The rifle might be best saved via building up the damage with weld, reshaping the receiver ring & re-hardening the receiver.


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[Ballistics in Scotland]

I think this is likely to be repairable in just the way Pietro describes, and if it is safe to shoot, it is probably safe with the Bee. But there are two factors that just might prevent it. One is that there could be cracks, and this would surely be good grounds for returning it. I doubt if suing would be worthwhile at that price, but some internet sales sites have a useful system of enforcement or feedback.

Magnaflux testing is best for cracks, but you should be able to detect very fine cracks by soaking it in gasoline long-term, then seeing if liquid weeps from a crack after you wipe it off.

The other grim possibility is that he held it in the wrong place while he was doing all this twisting. Assuming the bolt doesn't have to be slid home forcefully, though, it seems like there is no significant twisting.

[Mk42gunner]

Well, the good thing is the Model 92 locks at the rear, so that shouldn't be damaged. Does the bolt cycle freely, going all the way forward and the lugs engaging fully?

After looking at the picture of the front of the bolt, it looks pretty iffy to me.

While I think you could rebarrel this action, possibly needing a new bolt, and be perfectly safe; I would put this in the rifle of last resort category. If you can't get your money back, spare parts for your other guns makes the most sense.

Last time I was in Australia Model 92's seemed pretty common and affordable, but that was almost twenty years ago.

Robert

[andym79]

Thanks for the replies guys, yes getting a new bolt maybe a pain but I figured its the easier of the two issues to fix. Yes the killer is really the export issue if I can't find one in Australia.

Here are a couple more photos to give you a better idea.

Do you think a gunsmith really could build the action up and fix it?

I don't really want to buy another cheap 1892 to convert to a bee.

I will film the action in action and put it up on youtube later and posted the link here. As I said another barrel actually winds in find and the bolt slides freely in and out. Just looks to me like not only is the rear part of the reciever twisted toward the right, but also that some material is missing.

[MBTcustom]

Bubba must have been drinking heavily that night.

The receiver does little or nothing to contain the pressure of the cartridge. It's main function is cycling ammo and stopping bolt thrust. Since this action locks in the rear, you've got it covered. Looks a little fugly, but it should work if the bolt slides easily as you say.
If it were mine, I would look into getting a new bolt, because the face of that one is damaged (granted, it's at the top right corner which is merely what keeps the extractor in line). It's probably fine as is, but if you can pick up a new bolt, why not?
The chunk that the extractor took out of the receiver will have little bearing on function in my opinion (understand, this is the first one of these I have seen in this condition). The main thing is that the extractor has clearance, and that it keys into the barrel properly, which it looks like it does.

[andym79]

I am glad that there is thought that it might be fixable/usable. I have made some enquires today and getting a new empty action seems easier than getting a new bolt!

Here are three videos of the action, all are similar I was just trying to make sure I caught all the angles. You can see on the videos the bolt slides back and forth with ease along the grooves, it locks up and the hammer pushes the firing pin okay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTztxRfpo3w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w__AmyZ6YqA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrZvUpreyzk

[andym79]

Would returning it to a 32-20 make a lot more sense from a pressure perspective? I have a healthy model 53 (1892) in 32-20 which could be the 218 bee instead!

Here are further videos close up of:

View of damage to the receiver with good barrel wound into place

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T23nONLYiA8

View of damage to receiver with bolt closed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ytfy6OBV3o

View of bolt closed and barrel removed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYahFH5ZAN8

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I don't believe any of the images we have seen prove conclusively that this rifle and bolt can be saved. It would take close examination of the metal to do that. But it does seem likely, and if it can be, I don't believe the Bee would be less safe than the .32-20. The radial thrust imposed by the gases is born entirely by the barrel, and the thrust of the case-head, much cushioned by the grip of the case on the chamber, is compression on the bolt and tensile stress on the action sides, which are unharmed.

Originality is already of some importance to collectors with a Winchester 53, and will surely become more so in the years to come. Regardless of whether this one can be saved, I would be reluctant to modify your good one.

[andym79]

Hi guys, drove 6 hours to visit a gunsmith. There are a few closer, but they are only interested in run of the mill stuff, strictly bolt action and only in 22-250, 223, 243 and 308.

He told me he could fix it and it would cost around $375 ($500 AUD) or; and apparently he buys up lots of cheap old lever guns which are ruined in one way or another or simply just shot out and combines 2, 3 or more to make a good rifle. I could buy another receiver and bolt including the extractor from him for $180 ($250 AUD). So the rifle would end up having a new barrel in 218bee, all parts but the receiver, bolt and extractor from my rifle, a bolt from another and a receiver from another again.

Well as much as it pains me to let a receiver go to scrap, it seems like a no brainier to me. The receiver and bolt on offer have never been bubba'd and the integrity of their steel isn't in question.

So in short a project I hoped would cost $700 will now cost a total of $900.

Moral of the story "if the price seems to good to be true" and you cant verify in person that its not then it probably is. $160 for everything but a barrel was almost as much as most people wanted just for the receiver.

[andym79]

Now I have decided to go with his offer of another receiver and bolt (He can't do it till March though) the choice of barrel, it should be obviously .224" and I think 24" round, but what twist rate 1:12, 1:14 or 1:16.

I want to be able to shoot from 37 grain to 55 grain cast and jacketed, with good cleaning in between.

Is a 1:14 a good choice?

[MBTcustom]

Good for you. Life's too short for jacked up rifles.

[pietro]

.

While I can't help with your twist question, I CAN congratulate on making the best decision, of the options available to you.

What might help with your twist question, is the "Common Twist Rates" reference posting in our Gunsmithing section's sticky area - which shows factory .218 Bee twist rates as 1-16" or 1-14".

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?235414-Common-Cartridge-Rifle-Twist-Rate-Reference-List


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[oldred]

Just looking at that from a welder's/machinest's point of view I think fixing by welding, remachining and re-heat treating "would" work just fine BUT would it be worth the cost? Apparently you have already decided what I think most everyone else would suggest and that's just replace it since it would be so much cheaper to do so. Just because something CAN be repaired does not always mean it's the best choice.


Never underestimate Bubba, if he is like the ones I have dealt with then he has the strength of a gorilla and then some!

[waksupi]

I would suggest contacting Doug Turnbull, and send picture along. Not nearly as expensive as you would think to have work done, and he likes lever actions.

[Preacher Jim]

Second on Doug

[Geezer in NH]

Do you like your eyes? Do not fire a suspect repair

[andym79]

Do you like your eyes? Do not fire a suspect repair

I agree with that as a blanket comment, but I have discounted using this bolt and receiver if nothing else cost of repair vs replacement, so why the comment?

[oldred]

Do you like your eyes? Do not fire a suspect repair



Done properly why would that be a "suspect" repair? While most here would agree that shoddy repairs of critical areas could be dangerous that was not even part of the discussion, a blanket warning that seems to indicate any repair is dangerous is simply a case of over-reacting!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Hi guys, drove 6 hours to visit a gunsmith. There are a few closer, but they are only interested in run of the mill stuff, strictly bolt action and only in 22-250, 223, 243 and 308.

He told me he could fix it and it would cost around $375 ($500 AUD) or; and apparently he buys up lots of cheap old lever guns which are ruined in one way or another or simply just shot out and combines 2, 3 or more to make a good rifle. I could buy another receiver and bolt including the extractor from him for $180 ($250 AUD). So the rifle would end up having a new barrel in 218bee, all parts but the receiver, bolt and extractor from my rifle, a bolt from another and a receiver from another again.

Well as much as it pains me to let a receiver go to scrap, it seems like a no brainier to me. The receiver and bolt on offer have never been bubba'd and the integrity of their steel isn't in question.

So in short a project I hoped would cost $700 will now cost a total of $900.

Moral of the story "if the price seems to good to be true" and you cant verify in person that its not then it probably is. $160 for everything but a barrel was almost as much as most people wanted just for the receiver.

Logic seems to be on the side of the replacement receiver and bolt. Of course the seller didn't disclose something he should have disclosed, and if you bought it through a website with feedback or a complaints system, it sounds like you would be justified in angling for a partial refund. But $160 isn't bad for all those ancilliary parts.

The 14in. twist sounds like the right one to go for. If you intended to use nothing but jacketed bullets and smokeless, I'd say you would lost nothing significant with 12in., but with cast bullets it is best not to have faster rifling than you really need. With the early Armalite rifles it was found that 14in. twist sometimes failed with 55gr. bullets in low air temperatures. That seems a slim possibility, but 16in. is likely to fail with any but the lightest ones.

[andym79]

Yes I think 1:14" is the go. Low air temperatures are not common here a day colder than 13C/55F is rare. Average daytime temperature is 20-45C 70-110F; I do however think that the original 1:16" is too slow. Though I have often read that slow twist can often result in better accuracy with cast!

[Mk42gunner]

One thing to remember regarding the twist: The standard factory load for the .218 Bee was a 46 grain jacketed flat point (IIRC), probably because of so many Winchester Model 92 and 65's as opposed to bolt action or single shot factory rifles. I know I always thought it curious that Winchester made both 45 and 46 grain bullets for the Hornet and Bee since by the time I was interested in them the cartridges were on the low volume list.

With that said, I would go with the 1:14" twist. I don't know how it will do with the 55 grain projectiles, but it should be fine for the ones 50 grains or lighter.

Robert