Lead Dust , Lead Handling and clean up.

[44 WCF]

I know that lead has to reach 1100 or so deg F to release vapors, but I read of the concern about lead dust settling around casting area. I was taught to wipe bench etc with cloth soaked with auto dishwasher detergent while wearing dish gloves. I've also used D wipes .
1.Has anyone else used d wipes.
2.Can someone explain "lead dust". Is it particle s that have settled from fluxing smoke, or
3. is there a "lead dust" myth.

I use a "barrier" hand creme when sizing or reloading cast bullets, rather than disposable gloves. Barrier creme and gloves were recommended by a well known commercial cast bullet manufacturer.
4. Does anyone else use disposable gloves etc when handling cast bullets.

[NSB]

Pure lead melts at 621 degrees F. Lead in itself doesn't give off "vapors", it's the impurities that carry lead particulates into the air. Fluxing will increase this transfer. Anyone working around melting lead (pots, etc), should wear a particle mask, wear gloves for hygiene and burn safety. Most cases of lead exposure resulting in high blood levels are a result of handling lead with bare hands and then touching the face or food and/or cigarettes. Primary cause is then ingestion. Breathing particles is secondary as the primary cause. Barrier creams aren't the best way to protect yourself. Wear the gloves and wash your hands frequently and don't eat, drink, or smoke while working with it. Lead dust is not a myth. Lead oxidizes like many other metals and this oxidized material will stick to your hands or any surface it comes in contact with. Make sure you are working in a well ventilated area with ventilation being carried outdoors. I supervised a large automotive tube mill area for a few years where there were 37 tube mills running around the clock and each one had a 3600 lb. solder pot as part of the production process. All operators (over a hundred of them) were trained and tested twice a year for lead "poisening". All cases could be traced back to improper handling or not keeping the solder pot door closed or not wearing masks or gloves. I actually had people heating their lunches up on top of the solder pots even after all the training (and discipline) who seemed to think they knew better and ended up with high lead levels. Use some common sense and follow the correct safety guidelines and you'll be safe. You might want to get your level checked now if you do a lot of casting and then get it checked yearly to see if you're keeping it under control.

[S. Galbraith]

I stopped casting a few years ago, not because I didn't enjoy it, I just ran out of time. I barely have time to reload these days. In my job I have to get medical exams every three years which include blood level tests. I did not have abnormal levels when I cast bullets, but I was cautious about handling lead and would wear gloves when ever possible and made sure my work area was well vented. However, I had two blood exams in recent years where my lead levels were elevated. I am guessing that this was due to handling large volumes of fired brass, and not getting enough venting near my brass tumbler and sorter. So, I started wearing surgical gloves when handling dirty or tumbled brass and my lead levels have stabilized. Now days I use an ultra sonic brass cleaner which eliminates the dust issue, and makes for cleaned brass with less lead residue.

I guess my best advice is to always be conscious of lead exposure and always take measures to reduce exposure.

[bangerjim]

Dust is the biggest carrier. Dry vib tumbling in a closed room is very dangerous. That dust can have all kinds of nasties in it. I do all my cleaning outside with the evap running blowing all the dust away from me. And all my casting and re-melting is done outside.....year round! We can do that here in the desert SW.

Just use common sense. Breathers/respirators/full hazmat body suits......it's up to you! Unless you are doing all this in a sealed closet, I see no need for any of it. Hand/eye/body protection from hot lead is far more important to me.

Happy casting.....and Merry Christmas!

banger

[Bent Ramrod]

Elemental lead and its alloys will splash around, naturally, but the "dust" problem is mainly that dirt that gets skimmed off after fluxing. The lead oxide in the dross is in a form that can be dissolved in water by bodily fluids, rather than the strong acids that are needed to dissolve elemental lead. As long as you don't get that on your clothes, and you wash your hands after casting, you should be OK. A temperature that vaporizes lead is far above what would be reached in a normal casting session.

[44 WCF]

Wow, these ere the best explanation I've ever had. I am going to redo my bib tumbler set up . Good stuff to know. Powdered disposable gloves have been easy to get used to and will use them more now.

[bullet maker 57]

I always wear disposable gloves every time I handle lead. I smelt and cast outside with a fan blowing the air from behind me. Not much casting in the winter. I also wash up after casting with D-Lead soap.

[44 WCF]

This has been very informative discussion. Thanks for the input.

[Dakooz]

Good info. ...Looks like I need to get some latex gloves and run my dry tumbler in the garage

[44 WCF]

Yep I've got to revamp my tumbler set up and go to a media separator that is enclosed.

[pcolapaddler]

Good discussion. I'm a bit new, just starting out. Have cast some ingots but no boolits yet.

I need to get a mask. What kind of particle mask so you guys use?

What is D Lead soap? I have just been using whatever soap was at hand.

The wife is a bit nervous about this new activity. She has sort of gotten accustomed to my reloading.

Thanks

[44 WCF]

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00VG18XT2/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1450815554&sr=8-1&pi=SY200_QL40&keywords=d+lead+soap&dpPl=1&dpID=31-%2B6ELKn%2BL&ref=plSrch

D-Lead is brand name of products used in industry and recreation to clean up heavy metal residue. I also use their hand wipes Amazon and midway are sources . I use. 3m brand dust mask from local welding shop. Gonna start wearing one when I take stuff out of tumbler even out side.

[JSnover]

The only time I worry about dust is when I'm recycling my dross (which I believe is more likely to contain elevated levels of arsenic and antimony) - when the old five pound coffee can is full. For that I wear a mask. I do all of my casting and rendering in a ventilated area and don't eat, drink or smoke until I've washed my hands. In twenty years my lead levels have always been negligible.

[Dragonheart]

As already stated ingestion is the main cause of lead poisoning, but lead can also enter through the eyes and nose. Lead does not have to boil to produce harmful vapors. The only way to be completely safe is with a full face respirator with vapor/HEPA cartridges.
The biggest danger of lead poisoning is to children, which can handle only 10% of the exposure that an adult can. In most cases the damage caused by lead poisoning to a child is not reversible. What most don't realize is the small amount of lead dust required to poison a child. For a comparison if you took the same amount of lead dust equal to the volume of the powder in a package of artificial sweetener and sprinkled it on the floor throughout an average size home that tiny amount would be enough to poison a small child. Lead dust is created when lead or anything containing lead is rubbed by something else. Lead dust is heavy and typically settles on floors, window sills, cabinets, etc. any flat area. The dust is so fine you are not aware it is there. Lead dust can easily be tracked from your work area throughout your home. Your casting area should be limited to just adults that have adequate protection, are aware of the dangers of lead exposure and inadvertently exposing others including pets.

[44 WCF]

Hopefully someone with technical expertise can answer a question. I still use vibratory dry tumbler. Question...will adding rejuvenater or reactivating cream or liquid to dry media help reduce airborne dust like I think it would, and is primer residue present on cleaned cases concentrated enough to be a concern. Even wearing dust mask and disposable gloves while separating brass and media, I'm handling what I think is clean brass when I reload.

[dragon813gt]

I used to routinely work in an Exide battery plant. So much so that I had to have the mandatory blood test. Want to know what PPE was required? Disposable gloves. Guys in the oxide mill would wear respirators because they were in there day after day.

Wash your hands routinely, don't eat and and don't smoke in your casting area. That's all that's really needed. I just did my OSHA 10 training this week. They spent a good forty minutes on lead contamination. All they said was exactly what I posted. The single test question answer was to not eat before washing your hands.

Lead is a real hazard. But it's also somewhat overblown. You need to be very cautious w/ children. But good hygiene practices are really all that's required for adults.

[rosewood]

Doesn't the body naturally remove lead from itself? It only becomes a problem with excessive exposure that exceeds the bodies natural ability to remove it. If you are casting every day and licking your fingers, it can be an issue, but I would bet for an occasional caster that only does maybe 2-3 times a month, if you take basic precautions, ventilation, washing your hands etc, you will not exceed what your body can handle.

I bet I wash my hands 10 times in any given casting session and when reloading, I wash my hands before touching anything else, but then again, I am OCD about clean hands. I also use heavy leather gloves while casting, cotton clothes and leather shoes and safety glasses
.

[Dragonheart]

As a certified Lead Inspector/Risk Assessor for over 20 years I will attempt to answer the last questions. As far as cleaning your brass you are dealing with the residue left from igniting the powder so I do not think lead is a big issue here. However, breathing in anything but fresh air can cause problems, so I would err on the side of safety. When I tumble my brass I have the lid off the tumbler and tumble outside so the wind blows away the fine dust, even sawdust is hazardous.

The same goes for casting; the best place would be on a grass covered area so any lead dust coming off the process would settle into the grass and not be tracked into the house. But due to weather, etc many may not have that option so keeping your work area wet cleaned and wet mopped is prudent. Tracking the lead dust out of this area into your living areas needs to be avoided. As stated, ingestion is the main cause of elevated lead levels so no hand to mouth contact. A fan running behind a casting pot that is venting the fumes outside is usually sufficient, but for big pots melting down recovered lead I would recommend a full face respirator with vapor/HEPA cartridges, as you are heating a lot more than just lead. Additionally, realize lead contamination can be on your clothing.

Elevated lead levels in those working around lead containing materials is more common than you would think, because of the mentality if I can't see it it's not a problem. But the real danger with lead is to small children whose brain and body is still developing. If you are careless the lead doesn't go away by itself, it remains on surfaces where a child or a pet can pick it up, or you can be the carrier of lead dust to your kids or grandkids.

Lead does not leave your body under normal processes, lead stays in your body and redeposits into other areas like your bones. To remove lead from your body you have to undergo a chelation process. So the only safe blood levels of lead is "NO Lead".

And for those that continue to say lead is not an issue, think about this; Lead brought down the Roman Empire. The Romans were quite advanced, they had indoor baths, running water, cisterns, wine vats, etc. all lined with lead. We now know that lead poisoning became a major issue with the Romans and the resulting brain damage caused by lead poisoning.

[jsizemore]

I have a question for the crowd that wears gloves to handle lead. Do you wear gloves to load your magazine or chamber when shooting?

[popper]

Another good reason for coated boolits - no contamination when handling.

[maxreloader]

How many of you all used to "chew" a lead split-shot onto your line as a kid? I did more times than I could count... I wouldn't trade all my childhood fishing memories away for anything.

[JSnover]

Lead was a problem for the Romans because they didn't know about the toxicity of it or how easy it was to ingest. Even now I get an occasional warning about not drinking or cooking with hot tap water and letting the cold tap run for a bit to purge the lead that may have leached from the joints or any old pipes that may be upstream.

[jsizemore]

Another good reason for coated boolits - no contamination when handling.

What about 22lr? How about picking up fired cases at the range?

[Dragonheart]

It's not the handling of lead that's is a problem, it's putting you hands on food items or anything going into your mouth after doing so without washing first.

[tazman]

All of the warnings given about the dust particles and hand cleaning before eating, drinking, or smoking are true and should be followed.
I worked in a heat treatment facility for over 40 years where we used molten lead(1500-1600 degrees F) as a heat source. During that time we only had 2 men who got elevated lead blood levels. One of them got high enough he had to be removed from the job. Both of these men were smokers who didn't wash their hands before smoking during their break time. The one who was removed smoked over a pack a day during the work day. Handling cigarette filters then putting them in your mouth is just as dangerous as eating contaminated food.
Everyone else didn't eat, drink, or smoke in the work area and washed their hands before doing so. No one else had elevated levels.
We didn't wear respirators or masks, but we had powerful exhaust blowers sucking the fumes and dust away from the top of the lead pots into filters outside the building. The filters were never cleaned, only thrown away.
Due to the quenching method we used, we all had a close relationship with the tinsel fairy. She visited several times a day on the average. Normally she only left small reminders. After 40 years, I don't believe there is a single inch on my arms that hasn't had a second degree burn.

[jsizemore]

So we're walking around the question, AGAIN. If you feel the need to wear latex gloves during part of the operation, then why not all? I wash my hands after all operations handling lead from collecting scrap to firing and brass collection. I don't see the value of latex gloves during any operation and ignoring it the other part. I'm the first to tell folks if waving a dead chicken head over something makes you feel good, or shoot better, or taste better, then DO IT. So I'm wondering if the latex gloves in the process is just waving a dead chicken head.

[dannyd]

Loading and casting for 28 years, indoor range two times a week. Got blood work done normal

[JSnover]

As I told another member lately, if you think you need more protection, go get it. You may not need it but you won't be less safe with it.
If I'm making dust (working with dross) I'll wear a mask. Beyond that I wash early and often and never make ingots indoors. Lead comes with too much other junk for that.

[tndrfttom]

I have to echo what Dragonheart said in post #18.

Some years ago I was shooting Service Rifle, Bullseye, SASS and Bowling Pin matches – sometimes 2-3 matches each week. (One of the pin matches was in an exceptionally dusty/dirty indoor range which has since closed). I cast my own bullets for each type of match except the Service Rifle matches.

Out of curiosity I asked my Dr. to have my blood lead level checked during an annual physical; it came back in the upper double-digits. My family doctor sent me to a hematologist who began monitoring my blood lead levels every 6 months. (I found that, in general, doctors don’t know much about lead by my hematologist took the time to locate a “lead poisoning specialist” to become informed on the subject). With encouragement from the hematologist I focused on more care and cleanliness, especially around lead dust, and as a result the blood lead levels started dropping. Coincidentally, I ended up doing all the things that Dragonheart’s post covered.

[jsizemore]

Since you are a survivor of elevated blood lead levels, was wearing latex gloves when handling lead part of your lead abatement protocol?

[Dragonheart]

To answer the latex gloves question. I wear a fresh pair of latex gloves when I am handling lab samples, not so much for self protection, but eliminating the possibility of cross contamination of samples. I have never heard of an instance of elevated lead levels being caused by handling lead with your bare hands, so if you are comfortable doing so, I know of no reason for you to change. As stated, lead enters through the mouth, nose and eyes, so every precaution taken to keep this from happening is prudent, to paraphrase Bangerjim as he has stated in so many posts, "It's you own thing so do whatever makes you comfortable".
As far as range safety, our club has a 15 yard outdoor pistol range with the bullets hitting a steel backstop. Last year lead wipe samples taken off the metal shooting tables, those samples indicated high levels of lead dust. My point is something you can't see can be picked up on your body, clothing and equipment and then transported home to a young child that rushes up to give you a hug.
In our casting hobby we are dealing with high levels of lead, so I will pass on a story to futher convince the importance of taking precautions when handling lead. A couple having just purchased a new home decided to change out the front door. The found a beautiful antique door, which they had dipped to remove the old finish. The father then took the door to an upstairs game room and sanded the door and refinished it. Shortly after the young child exhibiting some symptoms was taken into the doctor and a blood test was performed. The child had lead poisoning. Upon futher examination both parents had high levels of lead in their blood. The culprit was the sanding dust off the old door that still contained enough lead to be a problem. The dust had deposited itself throughout the house and contained high levels of lead. This is not to scare you into quitting your hobby it is just another example of the dangers of lead dust and the need for precautions, especially to protect young children.

[jsizemore]

I'm interested to see if tndrfttom, who had elevated lead blood levels, continued to handle lead while going through his lead blood level reducing protocol. We have seen members get out of casting because their healthcare giver said it has to happen for recovery from elevated levels. If you feel you need an excuse to wrapped up in latex, then go for it. I'm curious to hear tndrfttom's experience.

[pcolapaddler]

Folks, I have read all of the posts in this discussion and believe that I have learned a good bit.

I have fished for many years and used lead sinkers, split shot, etc. I have even 'crimped' split shot with my teeth.

I haven't done much in the way of smelting/casting, but want to experiment with making my own boolits. I can wear a respirator, gloves, etc. I can wash my hands and other things to protect myself from lead dust.

Another question... This lead dust will be deposited on my clothes. I can change in the garage / outside. What about washing these clothes? Wash separately? Will the dust be deposited in the machine?

Thanks for the answers and thoughts.

[rosewood]

So we're walking around the question, AGAIN. If you feel the need to wear latex gloves during part of the operation, then why not all? I wash my hands after all operations handling lead from collecting scrap to firing and brass collection. I don't see the value of latex gloves during any operation and ignoring it the other part. I'm the first to tell folks if waving a dead chicken head over something makes you feel good, or shoot better, or taste better, then DO IT. So I'm wondering if the latex gloves in the process is just waving a dead chicken head.

It keeps your hands clean :) Kind of like wearing gloves while working on your car or working in the garden.

[rosewood]

Interesting article from the CDC.
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/phs/phs.asp?id=92&tid=22
1.9 states that 99% of the lead the enters the human body will leave within 2 weeks. Some will get in bones and may be there for life. It is a serious issue for children. As some others have said, it gets in the body by ingestion. Don't eat it or breathe it.

[JSnover]

Be careful. Don't panic. You can spend your entire life in a house that has been literally coated in lead paint, inside and out, with no ill effects until you eat the chips.

[opos]

I have some very special considerations with lung issues...I have moderate to severe COPD...I have one half of my diaphragm paralized so only one lung "works" and I have asthma. I visit my Pulmonary doctor every 3 months for general testing and breathing tests...I don't wear oxygen.

My doc had absolutly said no casting but ok on loading with considerations: (she and her husband both shoot)...she has given me the ok to shoot in only one of our several indoor ranges (it's ventilation is great..the rest are not good) and I always wear a surgical mask when shooting anything...primer dust is bad stuff for me regardless of projectile type. I've loaded commercial lead projectiles for a long time...I wear plastic gloves, a surgical mask, and am very cautious about hygene and avoiding dirty hand contact with my eyes or mouth or nose, etc...I citrus bath wash most brass before tumbling and all after depriming...that keeps dust to a minimum....I'm moving to high tech coated lead as it's safer for me to work with and I like it just fine (shoots cleaner)

[Dragonheart]

Be careful. Don't panic. You can spend your entire life in a house that has been literally coated in lead paint, inside and out, with no ill effects until you eat the chips.

Yes, but eating the lead paint is easier than you might think. The wife is whipping up a meal in the kitchen and opens and upper cabinet door and unnoticeable amounts of lead dust get rubbed off and drops into the food. A small flake of paint drops off into food from a poorly maintained ceiling. Every time a door or window opens and closes rubbing off small amounts of lead dust. A shoe contacts a baseboard, etc.etc. The lead dust is deposited on floors and other flat surfaces, then kids playing of the floor and making hand to mouth contact. How often do you see a baby put his hand in his mouth? These are the kind of exposures most don't ever think about.

[Dragonheart]

....I'm moving to high tech coated lead as it's safer for me to work with and I like it just fine (shoots cleaner)

I agree and one of the reasons I have switched to powder coated bullets. Also one of the reasons I prefer the tumbling method because the entire lead bullet is covered in a jacket.

[rosewood]

Yes, but eating the lead paint is easier than you might think. The wife is whipping up a meal in the kitchen and opens and upper cabinet door and unnoticeable amounts of lead dust get rubbed off and drops into the food. A small flake of paint drops off into food from a poorly maintained ceiling. Every time a door or window opens and closes rubbing off small amounts of lead dust. A shoe contacts a baseboard, etc.etc. The lead dust is deposited on floors and other flat surfaces, then kids playing of the floor and making hand to mouth contact. How often do you see a baby put his hand in his mouth? These are the kind of exposures most don't ever think about.

That is an easy fix, sell your old house and buy something after lead paint was discontinued. :)

[opos]

That is an easy fix, sell your old house and buy something after lead paint was discontinued. :)


But be careful that it doesn't have the grey plastic pipe in the slab and walls, no asbestos in the ceiling "cottage cheese", and make sure there is no Radon gas under the slab.... and on and on and on...

[Dragonheart]

Fact is we are all going to die of something, but there is no reason to help it along. But mostly don't let our actions be the cause of harm to others, especially those that mean the most to us.

[dikman]

My two bobs worth....I only started this shooting stuff a bit over 3 years ago, and started with muzzleloaders, so it wasn't long before I was melting and casting round balls. This soon led to recovering pistol range scrap and smelting it (as many know, this is a dirty job!). I do this outdoors, wear leather gloves and will often use a fan if there's no wind. I've currently done quite a few hundred kilos. Out of curiosity, a few months ago I asked my GP if I could be tested for lead levels. She thought it a bit strange, so I explained why. Result, normal blood levels.

So I figure that as long as I keep going along as I am, I should be ok.