Lightest bullets for deer???

[jhalcott]

While I have killed several deer with cast bullets in 7mm,30 caliber and larger guns, I STILL have this nagging question. What is the lightest bullet I SHOULD be using in the 7mm? I have 7BR,7TC/U ,7-08, 7IHMSA and the 280 Remington to use. Some are handguns some are rifles. The bullet that I have used most is the RCBS 28-168FN. I used it to cull MANY deer off a golf course in the 7TC/U 21" contender. I have the 287405 (150) and 7mm Lee "soup can"(135) and a couple other molds that do not get much use. One is a fat 112 grain mold for the 270,but drops a .284" bullet. I use it for fire forming and introducing young or females to center fire shooting. In .30 caliber, I have molds from 125 grains thru 200 grains. The 311041 and 311 291 get most of the work in this caliber. In the 35 Rem,and 35 whelen I use the 358315 and 358318 respectively,BUT I flat nose them for hunting! When i use the 45-70,either rifle or handgun I use the 300 grain RCBS fn or NEI 405 pointed bullets.
All that to simply ask ,IS THE 7MM soup can big/heavy enough for deer that generally weigh less than 150 pounds ? What would the RANGE limit be for the "soup can"? An Alloy resembling Lyman #2 as the HARDEST alloy used.

[jhalcott]

NO opinions or comments??

[Junior1942]

That RCBS 285-168-F ought to be your best bet in 7mm. I wouldn't use the 7mm soup can past 75 yards.

[felix]

You answered your own questions, it appears to me. ... felix

[northmn]

I know a person that gets a deer a year with a 357 magnum pistol and a 140 grain load. Deer are not hard to kill, they can be hard to find. If using lighter loads I suggest you shoulder shoot them to put them down. A 45 muzzleloader is considered adequate for deer and shoots a 13-140 grain ball, but it is pure lead. I guess how light you go depends a lot on the alloy. I like to use about 1-2% antimony that can be tempered and then set the bullet bases in water and use a torch to soften the noses. I get good expansion doing that. The lighter the bullet and smaller the bore diameter the more critical the alloy. I am assuming normal cast bullet laods of about 1800 fps give or take.

Northmn

[carpetman]

I tried a 95 grain cast in .243 and it did not work. Not a drop of blood and deer ran off. This is just my opinion from off the top of my head with nothing to back it up. You can cast with soft nose,water drop,air cool,oven heat or whatever other magic and a cast bullet is not going to mushroom etc and give enhanced performance. If your cal is in the 40's or so you dont need expansion,you need penetration. Most in that catagory do give a rainbow trajectory and range is somewhat limited. So my question is why do it? Not like it hasn't been done over a hundred years ago. Remember over a hundred years ago people read by candlelight. Yes it can be done. But why do it now?

[northmn]

So far I have had good expansion with cast bullets. Mostly however, I like to use the heavier bullets in 30 cal or up. 190 in a 30-30 or better yet 210 in a 303. Had excellent expansion even at 150 steps from the tree. A heavier bullet in the chosen caliber has the advantage of greater retained velocity over distance even if started a little slower. I have also used ML's and a 45-70. Shot placement is the key as anyone will tell you.

Northmn

[jhalcott]

The load I used on the golf course was JUST barely 1100 fps and it got into the vitals every time. 168RCBS fn gas checked, cast of an alloy that was about 12BHN. Lubed with home made Felix lube. Shots were generally quartering to ,thru the shoulder. Only one or 2 ran any distance,most dropped almost where they were hit. I have done a few tests on wet paper. I can get about half or more of the penetration with the soup can that I get with the 168. I can get very good accuracy up to 2400 fps with a Lyman #2 (15BHN) alloy. The wound channel SEEMS to be bigger in diameter also.I thank you guys for the replies. Guess I'll keep the soup can for ground hogs! NO shots on the golf course deer was longer than about 50 yards. Most were much closer.

[bearcove]

Don't fix it if its not broke.

[Nrut]

The load I used on the golf course was JUST barely 1100 fps and it got into the vitals every time. 168RCBS fn gas checked, cast of an alloy that was about 12BHN. Lubed with home made Felix lube. Shots were generally quartering to ,thru the shoulder. Only one or 2 ran any distance,most dropped almost where they were hit. I have done a few tests on wet paper. I can get about half or more of the penetration with the soup can that I get with the 168. I can get very good accuracy up to 2400 fps with a Lyman #2 (15BHN) alloy. The wound channel SEEMS to be bigger in diameter also.I thank you guys for the replies. Guess I'll keep the soup can for ground hogs! NO shots on the golf course deer was longer than about 50 yards. Most were much closer.

JHalcott...are you able to push that 168 gr boolit at 2400fps or are you talking about the "soupcan" at that vel.? (I am confused)...The reason I ask is that I just bought a 7-08 and would like to work up a cast load....I have a RCBS 145 gr but it is undersized at .282" so I am looking for a new mold...I will buy the "soupcan" if and when it becomes avialable again but would like something to shoot in the mean time...mostly for plinking...what would you suggest for a mold and what are your favorite powders?
Thanks :smile:

[jhalcott]

Nrut ,both bullets were shot at high velocity with good to excellent accuracy. The golf course load was deliberately held to around 1100 fps for noise control. The problem with the 708 (if it is one) is the short neck. Any bullet over about 150 grains has to be seated quite deep in MY 708 rifle. Rcbs has a 145 sillohouette mold. There are a couple others in this weight range out there.This bullet has a small flat nose which SHOULD help if you plan to hunt with the 708.If your chamber will handle the heavier slugs the 168 FN will penetrate like a freight train. Just cast it from a #2 alloy, for really fast loads linotype can't be beat. I will use what ever powder proves to be the MOST accurate in the particulr gun I'm using.
If you can use the 287405 Lyman 150 grain, hunting loads using IMR 3031 or 4198 and WW 748 all give good results at 2100+ fps. Slower speeds can also be very accurate and deadly.

[357maximum]

I tried a 95 grain cast in .243 and it did not work. Not a drop of blood and deer ran off. This is just my opinion from off the top of my head with nothing to back it up. You can cast with soft nose,water drop,air cool,oven heat or whatever other magic and a cast bullet is not going to mushroom etc and give enhanced performance. If your cal is in the 40's or so you dont need expansion,you need penetration. Most in that catagory do give a rainbow trajectory and range is somewhat limited. So my question is why do it? Not like it hasn't been done over a hundred years ago. Remember over a hundred years ago people read by candlelight. Yes it can be done. But why do it now?

Sounds like your peepers were off to me :kidding: :kidding:

[jhalcott]

Nrut have you considered Teflon pipe tape to bring the dia. up to the diameter you need for that gun? I have a 280468 mold that throws a very fat bullet weighing about 112 grains.and drops at ~.284. I wrap a couple turns of teflon on this bullet and shoot it in the 7TC/U barrels. I've hit 2200 FPS plus with decent to great accuracy. It is NOT the most accurate bullet mold I have, It has accounted for more than a few ground hogs though. This was just a thought for your consideration.

[carpetman]

357Max--The deer was a spike buck and it was on my grandsons side. It would have been an easy shot and I have high doubts he missed. He has very good record. After he shot the deer ran maybe 10 yards and was on my side. It was an easy shot. I see no possible way I missed. It also sounded like a hit. But at both spots where the deer had been standing there was no blood nor was there any on the trail as far as we could tell he travelled. When trail branched we have no idea which way it went. It ran off in full speed mode--not as if crippled.

[jhalcott]

Cman, I had the SAME thing happen with the 6mm using Jword 100 grain bullets. When I switched to the 85 grain Sierra HPBT's , the running STOPPED. Maybe a 95 grain cast with a hollow point would do the same for the 243 you had.?? I watched a guy today shooting his .17HMR at 300 yards. I asked if he would ACTUALLY shoot a ground hog at THAT distance. He replied that he did not really know,BUT it was sure nice to know he COULD hit one at that range.!! 4 shots in a bit over 4", 1 inch low of point of aim. A mans' got to know his limits.
BOY this SOUNDS LIKE A FLAME!IT IS not MEANT AS ONE THOUGH. Cman if you want I will delete it before a P'ing contest is started.

[carpetman]

Jhalcot---I didn't take it as a pissing contest. I don't understand your problem with 100 grainers in 6mm Rem. Been using 100 grainers in .243 with great success. Many say you have to use a premium bullet. I use cheap Winchester bulk packed which I'm sure compares with other cheap bullets. I'm not talking just one or two deer here,talking a bunch between myself,son in law and grandson.

[Bass Ackward]

And what you usually get in cases like this is recommendations from guys that worked for them. I have shot deer with a 22LR. And I have never lost one of those either. But I wouldn't recommend it. I also shot well with a 458X2 using an LBT 375 grain LFN and had Ray's results with his 243. But I would recommend that.

We limit ourselves to what we have. And if Mr Alcott's golf course load is working for him that's great. It may not work for someone else that alters the working range for that load or has different criteria. But since he is hunting golf courses, I assume he is not spraying the country side in full automatic either.

I don't think that there is a magic weight or velocity. Which means that there is no magic energy number either. That's why I always recommend testing for a minimum and maximum working range so you know what that is. Then you know what to expect as long as you maintain your same shot discipline. That's where most people get into trouble as they move off the golf course into open spaces and try to stretch the use of what they have cause .... it always worked before.

[357maximum]

357Max--The deer was a spike buck and it was on my grandsons side. It would have been an easy shot and I have high doubts he missed. He has very good record. After he shot the deer ran maybe 10 yards and was on my side. It was an easy shot. I see no possible way I missed. It also sounded like a hit. But at both spots where the deer had been standing there was no blood nor was there any on the trail as far as we could tell he travelled. When trail branched we have no idea which way it went. It ran off in full speed mode--not as if crippled.

Even olympic shooters miss, not saying that is what happened but the evidence from MY POINT OF VIEW tells me the payload was not delivered.

[Nrut]

JHalcott...Thanks for the tip on using teflon tape...I was going to buy a sizer and size the .282 boolits down then paper patch them up..I'll try the teflon tape first...
:smile:

[6pt-sika]

I have a pair that I plan on using at some point !

The first is my old Marlin 1893 in 25-36 Marlin caliber , I will load this one with the Lyman 257325 115 grain GC .

Also plan on using the Lyman 311316 in one of my Marlin 32-20's .

But with neither of these will I take a shot of over 50 yards and only thru the ribs , NO questionable angles !

Well if inside 25 yards a head shot would be considered also depending on the angle !

[KCSO]

This goes back to the old question of Hunting vs Killing, a 7mm soup can will KILLL a deer but wouldn't be my choice for hunting. If you get the the exact right shot the bullet will killl even with less than 100 fps velocity, buut if you are hunting and especiallly if you can't follow a wounded deer for a mile or so you need enough gun and enough bullet to make quick work of a deer. My minimum is a 170 grain cast bullet with as large a meplat as possible. You will have to judge for yourself if this suits your needs. but I want full penetration with a cast slug for good bleed out and a good blood trail.

[GrizzLeeBear]

KCSO, Junior, whats wrong with the soupcan? I use it in my 7TCU Contender for silhouettes and it looks like it would be a good hunting boolit to me. I has a nice flat nose. If you were to run it 2,000 - 2,200 fps I would think it would work fine out to 150 - 200 yds? Have you had any problems with it on deer?