Bit of Elmer Keith History / Artifact on Forgotten Weapons YouTube channel

[Artful]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3t5X8f__vpk

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Awesome post. Thanks!

[Davy Sprocket]

The cracked egg that made the omelette called the 44 magnum.

[chsparkman]

Very cool. I'm thankful for pioneers like Elmer and others whose legacy is our modern reloading.

[tdoyka]

very nice!!!

[S. Galbraith]

Nice find!

[TCLouis]

I had one just like that in my Super Blackhawk.

Ruger would not repair it either . . .

Little green LocTite and it woulda been good!

[Blackwater]

Great post, Artful, but yours usually are. Makes me feel better about blowing up a .44 SuperB. Not much, better, but a little.

[StrawHat]

I read once that EK had a box full of revolvers in which he had used a little too much powder.

KMN

[S. Galbraith]

I read once that EK had a box full of revolvers in which he had used a little too much powder.

KMN

He went through a few. However, as the video points out, me made some critical reloading errors which caused the KBs.

[MT Gianni]

He went through a few. However, as the video points out, me made some critical reloading errors which caused the KBs.
The claim of the errors made are not backed up in any of his books that I have read. I understood that he was resizing the bullets down to .454 but they were 340 gr or more heavy. His old bullets weighed 250 gr. Either way Elmer shot what he cast and had been casting and lubing presumably sizing bullets for decades when this let go.

[S. Galbraith]

The claim of the errors made are not backed up in any of his books that I have read. I understood that he was resizing the bullets down to .454 but they were 340 gr or more heavy. His old bullets weighed 250 gr. Either way Elmer shot what he cast and had been casting and lubing presumably sizing bullets for decades when this let go.

So you are saying that his pressure spikes were from overcharging and using overly heavy bullets?

[Boogieman]

In his book Elmer told of blowing a 45 SAA with a 300gr resized 45/90 bullet over 35gr of 3fg. Probably in a old folded head case. Looking a the picture I think the cylinder may have been stressed from a diet of heavy loads.

[StrawHat]

In his book Elmer told of blowing a 45 SAA with a 300gr resized 45/90 bullet over 35gr of 3fg. Probably in a old folded head case. Looking a the picture I think the cylinder may have been stressed from a diet of heavy loads.

I don't have the book in front of me but recall him saying he was celebrating the 4th of July with one of his hand loads using the 300 grain rifle bullet on top of a case of black powder. As I recall it he wrote the case head on the cartridge gave way and blew the loading gate off the frame and split his finger. It was this incident that lead him to develop the 44 Special into the more powerful loads than factory and eventually, the 44 Magnum.

The box of split cylinders and damaged revolvers were the result of other "mishaps" in reloading.

Kevin

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It is interesting that it appears to have happened on the last shot, after optimism grew in five easy stages. That isn't an uncommon thing with firearms failures.

Having several blowups without serious injury isn't unexpected either, if that really happened, with revolvers or most other firearms. But it isn't the sort of thing you would want to count on.

[44MAG#1]

"The box of split cylinders and damaged revolvers were the result of other "mishaps" in reloading."

Where did you get he had a box of split cylinders and damaged revolvers?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

He collected instructive museum pieces from other people, possibly?

In answer to your signature, mass is how much matter is in an object, and can't change unless it goes somewhere else. Weight is how much the gravity of the earth pulls it, or indeed the gravity of wherever else you happen to be.

If you take a 64lb. cannon-ball up in a spacecraft to a place where it is outside any gravitational pull, it has no weight at all. The same would apply if you were part-way between two heavenly bodies which pulled equally in opposite directions and the same would apply to one cubic centimetre of water, which is where the gramme comes from. Then try a drop-kick (aiming will be easier than ever before), and you will experience its mass exactly the way you would back home. You would also be taking virtually the same risk if you fired an overloaded firearm with a weightless bullet in it.

[MT Gianni]

So you are saying that his pressure spikes were from overcharging and using overly heavy bullets?

Yes this was before published manuals and not much past the BP era with guns designed for BP pressures. Video implies that he shot .458" bullets in a .454 bore, no proof that I have seen other than the videographers imagination.

[Boogieman]

Elmer clearly says it was 300gr. bullet over 35gr. of Black powder. At least we know it wasn't a double charge. He said a weak case head blew off.

[StrawHat]

"The box of split cylinders and damaged revolvers were the result of other "mishaps" in reloading."

Where did you get he had a box of split cylinders and damaged revolvers?

Several people who knew him or visited him have written about it in magazines +/or books.

Kevin

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Elmer clearly says it was 300gr. bullet over 35gr. of Black powder. At least we know it wasn't a double charge. He said a weak case head blew off.

This does sound a dubious explanation, unless the powder was too fine. In the 20s and 30s the most powerful load for the .45LC was a black powder one, I think 255gr. and 40gr., and certainly not very different. It was used successfully in very large numbers, and I don't believe 20% more lead with 12% less powder would be very different. I also don't think a case-head separation, unless accompanying some other factor, would blow the cylinder apart. That looks more like excessive pressure, or possibly an obstruction.

[FergusonTO35]

Best Elmer Keith quote of all time:

"That's uglier'n a ******* eatin' cactus!"

:guntootsmiley:

[ddixie884]

That cylinder was from a EMK Ka-Boom. He said he was using older cases with loose primer pockets and Winchester semi smokless powder. He said he thought he got a chain fire of more than one chamber. That and the weak case head that almost severed his trigger finger are the only Ka-booms I have seen documented evidence of. I refuse to believe other stories of many guns blown up, without documentation. Neither occurred with modern smokeless powders and neither involved an overload.

[runfiverun]

he was an experimenter in search of a more powerful round.
one without a laboratory other than his mind and the bunkhouse reloading tools.
he seen for sure the gun was originally the weak link so moved along to a thicker cylinder wall [smaller caliber]
I doubt he stopped there.

[Hickory]

he was an experimenter in search of a more powerful round.

Unlike Elmer Keith, if we want/need more power from a handgun, we need only to buy a more powerful handgun. Elmer did not have that option.

[maxreloader]

Great post!

[44MAG#1]

ddixie884,

Im with you on this he said she said malarkey. Keith documented what happened and I have never seen any Keith article stating he blew up several handguns.
People embellish their tells of Keith and his doings just to add a spin on something they want to be impressive on.
Keith needed no interpreter on his articles. What he said is it. No need of help from the sidelines.

[JHeath]

As stated above, EK concluded the kb resulted from the adjacent round simultaneously discharging. He believed it due to a set-back primer from a loose pocket striking the recoil shield as the first round recoiled.

[Bent Ramrod]

I've seen a few S.A. .45s that have blown up, and fired the shot that blew up a friend's .45, with his loads. Typically the outside halves of the top three chambers and the topstrap depart, never to be seen again. If there are loaded rounds in either or both of the adjacent chambers, they will likely go off as well, and the halves of the chamber will be empty. If one or more chambers have been fired before the overload, the case or its head with the dented primer and the remains of the wall will remain in the chamber adjacent to the one that blew up on firing. The other chambers can be unloaded if the cylinder pin hasn't been bent too badly to be pulled out or the cylinder rotated.

I remember Keith wrote about his wife's .45, which didn't blow up but the chamber walls over the bolt cuts bulged out until the cases started sticking. That and the blackpowder load with the .45-75 bullet sized down were the only revolvers I recall that he wrote of damaging with heavy loads. He had a large correspondence, and certainly collected all the data on blowups he could. The Loading chapter of Sixguns is full of pictures of blown up guns, so maybe much of that other stuff in the Box had been sent him by other people.

[JHeath]

EK also said his gunsmith welded on a new topstrap, replaced the cylinder, and put that revolver back in service!

[rlb]

Several people who knew him or visited him have written about it in magazines +/or books.

Kevin

several all people who knew him also knew that he was full of dung and a lot on the loopy side. There's a reason he always wore a big hat and tall boots with his pants tucked inside.

[Blackwater]

Not exactly sure what you mean by that, rlb, but "loopy" guys don't usually give birth to things like the .44 magnnum, etc. Anyone who considered him "loopy" was probably a crowd follower, which Keith was not. It's folks who strive to go beyond what we have who have given us things like radio, TV and .44 magnums, etc., etc., etc. He was a one of a kind type of guy, and many regard such folks as "loopy," but the object of their derision doesn't really care how they're regarded. They just do what they do for their own reasons, and satisfactions. Elmer deserves much more respect than to be called "loopy." Misunderstood, maybe, but "loopy????" I think not. He just marched to his own drums' beats.

[rlb]

Well, I guess you would have to know people that had to deal and put up with him on a day to day basis to understand where I get this. It's funny how people perceive him just from what he put on paper. A lot of people can bull there way through life and smell like a flower on paper.

[44MAG#1]

"Well, I guess you would have to know people that had to deal and put up with him on a day to day basis to understand where I get this. It's funny how people perceive him just from what he put on paper. A lot of people can bull there way through life and smell like a flower on paper."

I would say most of us would fit in the same boat too. Some are just better at it than others.

[JHeath]

EK colored far outside the lines. People back then said he was loopy for loading .38/357 to 42k or 47k, etc. And that was back when there were few rules.
Now we have two or three generations of what another CB member called "loading book fundamentalists", raised on received orthodoxy about what is not allowed.

EK did not seem to care much for rules and conventions. Yes he was a character who set his own bounds, different from mine.

But shooting in the US would be almost unrecognizable without his pioneering contributions. He earned that hat and those boots.



That's not all

[rlb]

The 38/357 deal belongs to Phil Sharpe. A person that also gave birth to the bullet that Keith twisted into his own, but you never hear nothing of that.

Truth be told, Keith's hunts were mostly guided or he just went with whoever knew where the game was.

Like I said, paper tells a totally different story than what really was.

[JHeath]

Sounds like somebody down there has a bone to pick.

[44MAG#1]

O"The 38/357 deal belongs to Phil Sharpe. A person that also gave birth to the bullet that Keith twisted into his own, but you never hear nothing of that. "

Now we are sure Keith had absolutely nothing to do with the idea of hot rodding the 38 Special and that Sharpe was totally the only person that had anything to do with it?


"Truth be told, Keith's hunts were mostly guided or he just went with whoever knew where the game was. "

Now we are sure that none of the other writers have ever Went on guided hunts and that Keith was the only one? We are also sure that no one else has ever had anyone recommend a good hunting spot to their friends and that Keith was the only one that has done that type of hunting. No one else in the whole wide world has ever done that?

"Like I said, paper tells a totally different story than what really was."

We are sure that Keith was the only one that ever told anything in such a way as to make himself look at least a tiny bit better than he really was was? We are positive that all the writings of every gun writer before and since Keith has always told everything dead on accurate with no waver from the absolute truth in any form or fashion.

With that being said I am sure the people you have gotten your information from is being absolutely truthful with absolutely no imbellishment whatsoever in any negative way or positive way in anything they say about Keith.

If what you say is the absolute truth??? I am seriously hurt to find this out about Keith not being the second perfect person that has walked the earth.
I though he was. My day is ruined.

[Blackwater]

The 38/357 deal belongs to Phil Sharpe. A person that also gave birth to the bullet that Keith twisted into his own, but you never hear nothing of that.

Truth be told, Keith's hunts were mostly guided or he just went with whoever knew where the game was.

Like I said, paper tells a totally different story than what really was.

Well, Keith WAS a guide himself, and if anyone knows the value of a guide when in unfamiliar territory, wouldn't it be another guide himself? Just makes plain ol' common sense, doesn't it? No sense starting from square one when one can get aid from a local who IS familiar with the territory. It's just pure logic, but logic isn't the model we often follow these days, so I guess it might seem strange to some.

And I've known a number of "true individualists" in my time, and to a man, they were good men whom you could depend on if they gave you a promise or their word on something. Keith was like that. He just told what he'd done and what he'd found, and always included appropriate cautions about trying to mimic what he'd done. What more can a man do in this life???

Those who are different, and march to the tune of their own drummer, are MUCH more trustworthy, in my experience, than the typical sheeple we commonly encounter. YMMV, but that's what I've found and experienced.

[rlb]

Figured I'd ruffle a few feathers, but those who didn't interact with him on a regular basis don't know any better. He wasn't any different than the blowhard you all know that was there and did that and made sure that everyone knew. It's just funny how he's idolized.

[44MAG#1]

"Figured I'd ruffle a few feathers, but those who didn't interact with him on a regular basis don't know any better. He wasn't any different than the blowhard you all know that was there and did that and made sure that everyone knew. It's just funny how he's idolized."

I don't idolize any man. No "man" is worthy of it. All you are doing is making statements that can be attributed to anyone famous or not , you, me or anyone on here. So, how could you be wrong? You are taking something that would be correct, to some degree, that could be applied to anyone and are trying to use it to disparage Keith.
What would some of your "friends" say about you behind your back? It may surprise you if you had it on tape.

[Boogieman]

Don't see any need for me to try to defend Elmer He was who he was and told things as he saw them. If he rubbed some folks wrong that was their problem. Seems to me like people who can't do trying to belittle someone who did.

[rlb]

Well, for starters, sounds like 44MAG#1 should get some better friends if they're talking behind his back. My friends don't because they are few and true friends. The rest are merely acquaintances. "TRUE" friends will give their life for me and I theirs.

Here's a little tidbit of info.

Phil Sharpe, a noted gun writer of the time and a member of the NRA Technical Staff, felt the .38/44 was capable of much better performance—read: higher velocity. Elmer Keith thought so as well, and both men separately began working up hotter loads that approached 1,400 fps with a 158-grain bullet. Keith's interest in the .38 caliber waned as he turned his attention to revving up the performance of the .44 Spl., but Sharpe continued stumping for a truly hot performing .38. He found a sympathetic ear in Smith & Wesson's Vice President Douglass B. Wesson. Smith & Wesson and the ammunition division of Winchester Repeating Arms took note, and by 1934 the cartridge design had been completed. It featured a .125-inch longer case than the .38 Spl. and launched a 158-grain bullet at 1,515 fps from an 8 3/4-inch barrel. A year later, Smith & Wesson introduced the revolver to contain this new mighty beast—the .357 Mag., which is reaching its 75th anniversary.

Boogieman,

Not belittling him. Just telling what he was really like. Even the gunsmith he used in Salmon didn't care to listen to him, but would work on his guns when he screwed them up. My grandparents, dad, mom and all of their friends had dealings with him on a regular basis in Salmon, ID and nothing good ever came from them. Most of the people who were shooters back then didn't really associate with him because of his boastfulness and big ego in a little guy. Can't say what they really said on a family forum.

Funny how you guys from out of town, that never knew him, but just read his writings think he is so much bigger than life when all it was was him taking advantage of the gullibility of people for a buck and an ego boost. I can tell ya that if this internet was around back then he wouldn't of been able to bull his way around like he did.

[onceabull]

I,too,have at least a platoon of relatives in Salmon,going back into the 1930s..neither they,or the people they associate with has ever mentioned any of the drivel the gent from "up the river' posted..Onceabull

[44MAG#1]

PMy take on is this. Rlb is living in a fantasy world too. He thinks that HIS friends and family are the epitome of truthfulness and accuracy in everything they say. Well, he needs to get a heads up.
A lot of people go on tales from others to form an opinion of something or someone. Most of us do. But in reality most people are so full of inaccuracies it is pitiful.
Keith probably was the same way but not to extent of many others. I would say he rubbed many the wrong way. That is probably the reason people around Salmon that "knew" him was his friend or detractors.
rlb is not realizing that some of his family may be the very ones that are spreading inaccuracies too. How does he know they aren't. He is already clouded in thinking his family and friends are so special they have pure intentions in accuracy in their knowledge of Keith.
Now on Keith. I am sure he was not perfect like some in Idaho. He probably did seem arrogant to some. He probably did make a few enemies that are intent to make him look bad as their life goal. I remember reading a piece from one writer attending the Remington seminar where the 8MM Rem Mag was introduced and he stood up all the while the Remington guy was talking while trying to ignore Keith at the same time and when he saw he wasn't going to sit down he asked Keith if he could help him. Keith asked what the hell good is it?
It wasn't a big seller for Remington either.
Another time he was at a duck or geese hunt sponsored by Remington and allowed as to how he wished he has some Winchester #3 shot for the hunt in front of the Remington people.
Some of you may have those writings that was written about him shortly after he died.
So I am sure he made a few enimies in the gun world and the world know as Salmon, Idaho.
Look at the fit he gave Smith and Wesson because he thought they could do better on their guns.
Anyone remember the words he used for them. A bunch of monkey wrench mechanics working for the malleable parts and thrown together company. This during a time when Smith was turning out guns that did have their share of problems.
He probably hurt the feeling of a few of rlb's people so they have to make a play. Right.
Most of the people that proported as to know him probably is like many where I work. They run down management when none are around but let the plant manager or company president step out on the floor and the same jewels can't get close enough to them trying to suck up, joke around, be oh so nice to them it is sickening.
Same with Keith. Those same detractors probably had their head so far up his behind when he was around that if he sat down he probably would have broken their necks. Then when he left the area they talked about how bad he was.
And so it goes in the world of people, mine, rlb's, yours and everyone on here and elsewhere.

[rlb]

Yep, you all would've broke your necks.

[44MAG#1]

"Yep, you all would've broke your necks."

Yeah just like the people you have listened to did. You probably would have been there too.

[flint45]

I don't idolize any man but he was avery interesting man and I LIKED HIM.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I LIKED HIM.

That may be part of the reason why some people want him cut down to size. He wasn't a superman or a ballistic scientist, but he did a lot of useful development work, and put it over in a style that suited people who wouldn't read ballistic scientists. He was a prima donna, it is true, but it took the form of enjoying his self-image rather than rudeness or bullying, and there are only two ways a man can wear boots and pants.

If we expected him to be right in all his beliefs and conclusions, we'd have had to prevent him from coming to beliefs and conclusions, like civil servant or some such creature. Instead he dominated an industry, got liked for it, and some people felt inclined to chew his ankles because they couldn't reach higher. I suppose it's an oedipal thing.

[Blackwater]

I never met the man, but have known a number of men like him - ornery, opinionated and willful. To a man, though, they were worthy people and you COULD learn from them if you were simply of a mind to. And after they got to know you, really, and found you to be truly interested, they'd take you under their wing and teach you stuff that nobody else could because nobody else was as determined to know stuff as they were.

Hard to get along with? Yeah, I'd accept that about ol' Elmer. But those who took the time to get to know him with regard to shooting and reloading respected him, and that's the common bond between him and his fans. All else is just the trimmings around that. I don't see that he warranted anything else, but today, many, especially the younger types, tend to disparage any and every body who's ever really done anything - a fact for which I have no real insight or explanation. It just is, as far as I can tell.

I love the old coot. Always will. He made my life more interesting and my loading and shooting better. What's NOT to love about that? It's just giving credit where credit is due, isn't it?

[9.3X62AL]

So glad to have not added to this thread. Its ebb and flow illustrates EXACTLY why my participation on the public side of this site has dwindled. Express an opinion--especially if based on real-world experience and actual hands-on work--and the Keyboard Commandoes, Mall Ninjas, and non-specific haters put you on full blast. That tone got set years ago, and in spite of new management's best efforts it still persists.

I never knew Mr. Keith outside his writing. I liked his writing, and I learned many things by reading same. Subsequent experience has borne out for me that Mr. Keith was largely correct in most of his expressed beliefs. I'm out.

[youngmman]

I'm finding all this very entertaining so I'll put in my two cents. I got my junior hunting license in 1960 at age 13 after completing the NRA hunter safety course. Along with taking the course I joined the NRA and began receiving the American Rifleman Magazine. Elmer Keith wrote many articles over the years for the magazine and I learned one hell of a lot from them, not to mention Bill Jordan's articles many of which talked about Elmer Keith in the most complimentary way regarding his skill as a marksman and experimenter with all things related to shooting. I never found his advice to be wanting. When I started casting I used molds from H&G casting bullets he designed and they were superb.

So, he may have had his faults like all of us do but his advice was sound to those who were wise enough to follow it.

As far as I'm concerned that's the end of this BS.

[Reg]

I'm finding all this very entertaining so I'll put in my two cents. I got my junior hunting license in 1960 at age 13 after completing the NRA hunter safety course. Along with taking the course I joined the NRA and began receiving the American Rifleman Magazine. Elmer Keith wrote many articles over the years for the magazine and I learned one hell of a lot from them, not to mention Bill Jordan's articles many of which talked about Elmer Keith in the most complimentary way regarding his skill as a marksman and experimenter with all things related to shooting. I never found his advice to be wanting. When I started casting I used molds from H&G casting bullets he designed and they were superb.

So, he may have had his faults like all of us do but his advice was sound to those who were wise enough to follow it.

As far as I'm concerned that's the end of this BS.

Ditto Sir, also dittos to 9.3x62AL.
I might also add that some of the unnecessary rudeness shown by a couple do not hold with the reason for this forums success.

[44MAG#1]

Let there be NO mistake. I am a BIG Keith fan. But I am smart enough to know no one is perfect. To pick on someone just because they aren't perfect is not nice.

[onceabull]

duplication is overkill

[onceabull]

To enhance 44Mag#1's comment just aboveL 'To pick on----------is not nice"..It's also classless.... Onceabull

[Ballistics in Scotland]

So glad to have not added to this thread.

Ah well, not adding to it is a whole lot better than subtracting from it.