Scary moment with carry pistol

[eljefe]

I went to unload my 1991 Colt compact, which I had been carrying for a few days, and couldn't get the dang thumb safety off!

The plunger spring extended from the plunger tube, and it took way more effort than I would have been able to expend had I been in a fight.


I am really beginning to rethink carrying a 1911...one of the S&W compact revolvers may be a better choice.

Any thoughts or advice is appreciated!:)

[Glen]

I am a big fan of the 1911, and enjoy shooting them in competition, but all of my carry guns are revolvers...

[yeahbub]

I've owned and been messing with 1911s for twenty years or so and that's the first I've heard of that particular malfunction. Do you mean the plunger spring wire was extended out of the hole alongside of the plunger, preventing the plunger and the safety from moving? If so, it sounds like a tolerance issue and probably specific to that pistol. I have seen a Firestorm clone with the plunger shoulder that the spring pushes against out of the hole with the spring visible when the pistol was on safe. The safety casting lacked sufficient material where the plunger made contact and allowed the plunger to protrude farther than it should have. Were it a carry piece, I would have opted for a longer plunger to get better guidance and contain the spring.

The design has served well in some very gritty environments without annoying problems like this. If my understanding of the problem is correct, it's less a question of the design than one of properly fitted parts. Could you post some pics? I'm not on here often but I'll bet there's a few 1911 afficianados that could offer aid.

God Bless!

[eljefe]

Yeahbub, the spring on the safety side was extended too far...I just looked at it again and the plunger tube is loose. It looks like it is dented, and will have to be replaced, I believe.

I got a little too lax with checking, lesson learned. Fortunately, I have another carry piece that will substitute, but I am still thinking about obtaining a S&W 642.
Either way, I will be doing a daily check to make sure whatever I am carrying is fully functional.

Thanks, y'all, for your input!

[EDK]

I checked my 1911 when I loaded it and put the safety on, before I headed out to check fences on the farm. When I got near the obnoxious neighbor's boundary, I thought I heard his "attack trained" rottweiler come crashing through the brush and got ready for whatever. (The dog had been discussed and the owner disagreed with my thought that "ain't no SOB--two legged or four!--going to tree me on my own property; and I have a wife, two small kids and a crippled mother-in-law! Keep your dog under control.) Luckily my dog had flushed two turkeys and they took off like a jet! BUT the plunger tube rivet had worked loose and tied the gun up!

It happened once in almost ten years, but that's once too often! Another reason for a back-up. "If you don't need a gun, carry one; If you need a gun, carry two!"

:cbpour::redneck::Fire:

[Wayne Dobbs]

The plunger tube is one of the most glaring weak points on the 1911 and was dispensed with by JMB on the 1935 design (along with the grip safety). Make sure and get a quality replacement part installed by somebody who really knows the 1911. Another thing to do is make sure and have grip panels on the gun that are high enough to hold the housing in place should it let go.

[broomhandle]

Hi Sir,

Just get it fixed with quality parts and keep going!:-D

I have Rock Island rental Range gun I bought for $150 it is still like new inside. (50,000 rounds in it over a four year period!)

The plunget tube is still tight I did replace the ejector mounted on the frame as it was cracked at the base pin locator.

For some reason Colts seem to have problems with the plunger tube often.:(

The 45 1911 is still one of the best carry guns out there.:drinks:

Best to you,
broomhandle

[lathesmith]

Geez, talk about a confidence-wrecker! I'll definitely stick with my wheelguns....because that is what I feel comfortable with. That is my recommendation; whatever gun you can get to work properly to your comfort and satisfaction level, stick with THAT one,...be it an auto or wheelgun. When the chips are down, it will be YOU that will be pulling the trigger, and you don't need the extra worry of whether or not you actually CAN.
lathesmith

[slughammer]

Make sure the frame is countersunk on the inside, this gives room for the plunger studs to be properly staked for retention. My SA had no countersinks and would not hold until I added them.

Pachmayer used to make a stainless thumb guard that went under the LH grip panel and then went up over the plunger tube. This would serve as a second measure to keep the tube in place.

I have also seen a replacement for the tube that was more of a block. This had room for the frame to be drilled and tapped and then screws added for retention.

[Dave Berryhill]

Good advise on chamfering the plunger tube holes on the inside of the frame. It doesn't hurt to put a little red loctite on the plunger tube studs before installing it on the frame.

Grips used to help support the plunger tube but very few of them are made this way any more. If you can find some that go up high enough but don't touch the plunger tube you can "glass bed" them to the plunger tube using some epoxy (make sure you use a release agent on the pistol frame). Some guys will even silver solder the plunger tube to the frame. They definitely stay put using this method but are a PITA to replace if they get dented.

No matter what you do, it's a good idea to inspect your plunger tube regularly.

[Ricochet]

I used to have trouble with my Series 70 Government Model's safety becoming extremely difficult to depress when it had sat unused for some time, cocked and locked. Lubricating it and working it several times would loosen it up to work normally, but someone who didn't have a strong thumb would have found it unfireable. Problem went away when I quit lubing the pistol with U.S. Army LSA. The stuff gums up or solidifies some way in the plunger tube, I think.

[BruceB]

One of my 1911-type pistolas is an AMT "Hardballer", given to me for Christmas many years ago when AMT was making the ONLY stainless-steel 1911s on the market, at my specific answer to "What do you want for Christmas?".

It took some tweaking, but it's now a very reliable example of the type.

One of the things AMT did in reducing costs had a very desireable side effect. They eliminated the plunger tube as a separate part, including instead a cast-on "boss" integral with the frame casting. This boss only required proper drilling to accept the plungers and spring.

It's an excellent, elegant solution to the problems related here, and for the life of me, I don't know why other makers haven't done likewise.

My other 1911s have not given trouble in this area, but still....

[targetshootr]

I'd go with a revolver too especially after seeing how fast Jerry Miculek can reload his 625. Holy smokes he's fast.

[tarbe]

I'd go with a revolver too especially after seeing how fast Jerry Miculek can reload his 625. Holy smokes he's fast.

There's a reason why so many of us have switched to Glocks for carry. They are about as quick for the first shot as anything, and they always go bang. Not to mention even with unlimited practice, virtually none of us could reload a revolver as fast as Jerry!

And even Jerry can't get off 12 rounds as quick as a man with a high cap mag! Not that the average defensive situation requires that much ammo....


Tim

[Old Ironsights]

I've migrated back to a wheelgun for a couple of reasons... though none of them have anything to do with reliability.

I'm carrying an SP101 and it dissappears under a tucked shirt with the IWB tuckable holster I have.

My G27 did too... but even though it was a 10 shooter vs a 5 shooter, it was just never "right" for me.

[shooting on a shoestring]

I've never heard of a gunfight won on magazine capacity. To quote Dad "If I can't hit it in 5 shots, I can't hit it." The most important shot is the first one, and its all about location location location.

I choose to carry 5 shot revolver, shoot it often and well. I don't practice fast reloads, or even slow reloads. I consider reloading to be an anitclimatic activity.

That bit of preaching done, I believe we each have a right, even a duty, to carry a gun with which we are familiar, compitent and confident. That'll be a Glock for some, a 1911 for others, a SP101 for me.

[Boerrancher]

I use to not pack a gun, but since I was wounded in Afghanistan and finally returned to my rural Missouri home, I pack a piece with me every where I go. There are too many Meth heads running around here now for my taste. I use to be able to fend off someone quiet well with my fists but not anymore.

I don't have a favorite hand gun to carry, most of it depends on what I am doing. If I am on my 4 wheeler around the ranch I carry my scoped Ruger Red Hawk .44 mag. If I am on foot I carry either my 45 LC or 44-40, and the rifle to match. When I go into town I pack either my Springfield Armory 1911 or most often now my Taurus PT 145 Pro. I like the PT 145 Pro, because it is very reliable, and I sub compact so I can drop it in my pants pocket, or in the back of my pants, with my shirt or jacket hanging over it and it just disappears.

Best Wishes,

CPT T.

[JIMinPHX]

A 1911 is a good carry gun for me in the winter. It’s reliable. It’s accurate. & I’m proficient with it. In the summer (110F is normal here) I switch down to a J-frame revolver or a pocket size Mak. I figure that if it’s so hot out that I can barely walk down the street, then everyone else in the area is probably in just as bad of a shape & I’m not going to need much punch to end any bad situation that’s likely to pop up.

I have never had any reliability issues from a 1911. The only reason that I don’t carry one full time is because it is a big chunk of stuff to lug around & its more than I probably need. If I was a cop that raided crack houses for a living or a GI over in the sand box, then a .45 would be what I wanted to carry.

20 years ago, I used to shy away from 1911’s because I thought that they weren’t safe to carry. Back then, I opted for a S&W 4506 DA Auto. Since then, my proficiency with the 1911 has improved dramatically & I am no longer of the same opinion.

[nicholst55]

While you're having a new plunger tube installed on your 1911, have the gunsmith check the detent notches on your slide stop and thumb safety. Sometimes they are either very shallow or nonexistent. Deepening them slightly takes just a few seconds, and can make a tremendous difference in smoothness and reliability of operation.

FWIW, I used to see that particular malfunction fairly frequently when the Army was still using 1911s.

[eljefe]

Thanks, gents, for all the replies!

The gunsmith has the gun, and he is going to replace the tube and do a thorough function check. He is very skilled, and has done work for me before.

When he picked the gun up from the range I work at, he asked me to test fire a Kahr pm40. Talk about recoil! That pistol is smaller and lighter than my bersa 380cc, and is actually quite accurate. But...it do jump around!

The gunsmith has a prior hand injury, and we frequently shoot his harder kicking guns. Tough work!:-D

[WBH]

I too have a Model '70 1911 that I target shoot with. I too I won't carry an Auto for personal safety. And never would I carry any PP firearm without an exposed hammer. I like to see it. Just my personal opinion of having a carry since 1980. I'm not a PO so I can't see the need for 15 rounds. Most confrontations are within 3-5 feet. The longer the distance, the better the story better be as to why you were shooting.

[9.3X62AL]

El Jefe--

I'm glad you found the safety issue under friendly circumstances. I'll bet that was an unnerving experience, just the same.

CPT T--THANK YOU for your service to our country, sir. ROGER THAT about meth heads, too--I spent the bulk of my LEO career dealing with their nonsense on one level or another, and a more scandalous, thieving, and unpredictable rabble of zombies could scarcely be imagined.

I don't have a real strong preference of roller vs. bottom-feeder. I've used both, and trust both, but am aware of each platform type's limitations. BOTH types are compromises between portability and stopping power, and most favor portability. USE ENOUGH CARTRIDGE--we won't hunt deer with many of the calibers we routinely carry for self-defense, a factoid that has left me scratching my head since I started carrying handguns in harm's way. I'm just sayin'.

[waksupi]

I carry my Combat Commander at work, and have never felt any misgivings about it's dependability. But then again , I do inspect it regularly.

The purpose of being armed here around home was re-enforced this morning, as I got an email from a neighbor, that their dog had been mauled by a lion last night. Dogs and kids attract lions, and although I don't have either, I also don't want to be a convienient snack for one!

[Scrounger]

Lions prefer kids because they are soft and tender. Tough, stringy, bitter old men are much farther down their food chain. :kidding:

[mike in co]

I too have a Model '70 1911 that I target shoot with. I too I won't carry an Auto for personal safety. And never would I carry any PP firearm without an exposed hammer. I like to see it. Just my personal opinion of having a carry since 1980. I'm not a PO so I can't see the need for 15 rounds. Most confrontations are within 3-5 feet. The longer the distance, the better the story better be as to why you were shooting.


not sure where you got that "3-5" feet data...but i doubt you can draw and fire if your opponent attacks you from that close. the industry standard is 7 yards....21 feet...an adult male can close and make contact. the first thing to do is to put distance between you and "them". what are you revolver fans gonna do if there is more than 1, more than two?

i shoot in regular draw and shoot pistol competition. once a year we do a drill where every member is timed from a concealed draw to first shot.. you are not as quick as you think you are.

mike in co

[Old Ironsights]

... what are you revolver fans gonna do if there is more than 1, more than two?...

Same thing I would do if I was carrying my favorite carry gun - the 7 shot CCO (1911 officers lower, commander upper) - move/shoot to nullify the greatest threat first.

Standard IDPA drills.

5 shots or 7 shots (or 14 shots) same same.

[725]

They are all good and they all can malfunction. Service, maintainence & diligence is the key. None are a guaranty of outcome & as sure as God made little green apples, it will fail when you need it most, if you don't use it and take care of it properly. Just a general observation. I carry a wheel gun with extra ammo. Nothing against bottom feeders. They work just fine, too.

[PatMarlin]

I carry a Sigpro polymer for protection while working equipment with decocking lever, and it's about as reliable as you can get in a auto loader I would imagine BUT...

The darn mag release button is easily pushed by accident, and many times I have found the mag slipped out... :roll:

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Back when I was a cop, NYPD required us to carry .38spl. revolvers, both on and off duty. The guns I carried, were an S&W M&P, and a Colt Det. Spl.
When in uniform, carrying the M&P, my "Backup" was a Browning HP. Guess which gun I pulled out first in an emergency situation?
Out of uniform, both in Plain Clothes and off duty, my backup was a .25 Colt Junior loaded with Super Vels.
I retired with a line of duty injury, before they switched to Glocks, but back then, we all wished we had semi-autos.

I'm now ALWAYS carrying a .32 Seecamp in my right front pocket, in a holster I designed and made myself, which doesn't show a gun outline, and allows me to draw it out of the holster with my trigger finger. I ALWAYS have my 10mm Delta Elite under the front seat, and on occasion carry that.

While the 21 foot minimum is a terrifying reality, in my opinion, outside of police work, most confrontations are going to happen in less that three feet, usually you will be struggling, trying to protect yourself with at least one hand, and you'd better be able to get off a shot with the other, without having to jack a round into the chamber. I keep my Delta "Cocked and Locked", and my Seecamp is DAO.

I only mention this, because I've met many people who carry their guns with an empty chamber, "for safety" What stupidity!!
Morgan

[mike in co]

Same thing I would do if I was carrying my favorite carry gun - the 7 shot CCO (1911 officers lower, commander upper) - move/shoot to nullify the greatest threat first.

Standard IDPA drills.

5 shots or 7 shots (or 14 shots) same same.


NO ITS NOT "same same"

when your revolver runs out after 5 or 6 shots, in a multi opponent confrontation, YOU now need to reload and hope you are not overtaken. WITH A SEMI of 12 to 15 rounds( not giant 18-20 plus round guns) you are still actively in the fight. if you get all your training from idpa rules you probably will not understand as idpa was based on low round count guns.
( one big caviat: if you have a 1911 and can hit what you aim at ....you are probably ahead of the game with 8 rounds of 45).

i'll take a semi 12 shot 9mak over a 5/6 shot 38 special every day. heck i'd probably take a 8 shot 9mak over a 5/6 shot 38 special.

i'll take a 9x21 16 shot over a 5/6/7 shot 357 mag all day long.

once you get much bigger than this you are talking duty carry...not concealed carry.

practice is more important, being comfortable with the gun is a must, having round count on your side is a plus.

mike in co

[405]

Morgan Astorbilt, gotta agree with your take.
Back in a past life.... I/we of course started with DA revolvers. 357 duty, 38 SPL back up was the norm. NO safeties, no de-cockers, no empty chambers.

Then practically everyone, everywhere switched to auto loaders.
The last thing I wanted in a carry gun was something that required manipulating a safety or cocking or thinking about something with the gun in order to draw and fire. DA in either revolver or auto loader seemed appropriate. So before transition I carried a S&W 19, then a 66 then after transition a Glock. Frequent inspection, shooting and maintenance all go with the territory.

[Old Ironsights]

NO ITS NOT "same same"

when your revolver runs out after 5 or 6 shots, in a multi opponent confrontation, YOU now need to reload and hope you are not overtaken. WITH A SEMI of 12 to 15 rounds( not giant 18-20 plus round guns)

Sorry. To my body size, anything over a 10 shot G27 is too large to conceal without a jacket. I intend to carry EVERYWHERE, so "concealed" means "IWB-Under a shirt".


you are still actively in the fight. if you get all your training from idpa rules you probably will not understand as idpa was based on low round count guns.
( one big caviat: if you have a 1911 and can hit what you aim at ....you are probably ahead of the game with 8 rounds of 45). And if I have only 5 rounds of .357 I'm good for 5 single-taps vs the necessary 5 DOUBLE taps with a 9mm...


i'll take a semi 12 shot 9mak over a 5/6 shot 38 special every day. heck i'd probably take a 8 shot 9mak over a 5/6 shot 38 special. Well, since I don't carry .38 SP I really can't comment. I carry Full Pressure /+P .357... and can shoot them well.


i'll take a 9x21 16 shot over a 5/6/7 shot 357 mag all day long. See "body size" above. A big gun with lots of bullets doesn't help if you can't carry it 24/7.


once you get much bigger than this you are talking duty carry...not concealed carry. A G23 is "duty size" for me...


practice is more important, being comfortable with the gun is a must, having round count on your side is a plus.

At last, somthing I can agree with. ;)

[Morgan Astorbilt]

I'd like to add one thing.
A .25 or .32 in the pocket, is better than the 9mm or .45, or anything else, left in the car or at home, because it was too uncomfortable to carry all the time. I used to carry my Colt Det Spl., but found I was leaving it in the car, more often than not. I now carry my Seecamp ALL THE TIME. I pick it up from my end table with my car keys and wallet, and feel undressed without it. I carry it into premises such as stores with "no carry" signs, if need be, and feel, as the saying goes, "It's better to be tried by twelve, than carried by six". I just keep my mouth shut, and nobody notices. I carry my Delta, under the car seat, and while I don't live in a high crime area, my home is 1/2mi. off the highway, on a private wooded gravel road surrounded by water on three sides. If I meet any strange vehicle on my way in, I'm damn sure I don't want to have to confront someone pointing one of my own guns at me, with nothing to shoot back with larger than my Seecamp. If I'm in my pickup, I've got my 870. loaded with buck.
As I get older, (I'm 68), a handgun becomes more important as an equalizer.

You've got to carry ALL the time! The one time you don't, is the time something will happen! Pack the largest gun that is comfortable. Seecamps now also come in .380. A hell of a big bore for a .22RF platform!! If a Seecamp is too pricey, there are copies such as the NAA and Berettas, that will do the same job.
Below is my.32 Seecamp, loaded with Winchester Silvertip hollow points. About as small as my wallet, and not much heavier. The hole in the holster, is to draw it, leaving the holster in the pocket, not to shoot it.
This subject is a crusade of mine. I occasionally ask a guy who claims he's always packed, to see his carry gun, and most of the time they're without it. A tragedy waiting to happen, in my opinion,
Morgan

http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/seecamp1.jpg
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/seecamp2.jpg
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/seecamp3.jpg

[Old Ironsights]

Careful with that "holster"... When there's a gun in it it's now considered an NFA "other"... That's why they aren't available for sale any more.

I'm the same way with my NAA Guardian:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_0334.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_0333.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_0332.jpg

It's the gun I ALWAYS have on... even when I'm not carrying somthing of Major Caliber...

[BruceB]

In my case, I am VERY sensitive to heat, and in summer in the high desert, we have heat in spades. My bad reaction to heat is based on two things, diabetes and over thirty years of living in the Arctic.

I KNOW that a J-frame .38 is a pretty weak reed to rely on, but virtually any handgun is not exactly Excalibur or a magic wand. So, the M642 .38 is my "always" gun, but especially in hot weather, along with a speedloader of extras.

When a cover garment is practical, a single-stack 9mm or .45 auto becomes the carry gun, with a reload, although I have carried a 5" 1911 or a 6" N-frame .357 downtown under just an untucked T-shirt without alarming anyone.

My 3.25" 9mm delivers a Cor-Bon 115 JHP at 1274 fps, chronographed. Anyone still want to tell me there's a "BIG DIFFERENCE" between 115/1274 and 125/1300 (.357 Maggie)? I don't think there is....

After decades of handling various handguns, I find little difference among them for quick handling, safety or no safety. My mind recognizes the gun I'm carrying and prepares for the acts needed to put it into action. My guns are ALWAYS carried in Condition One, chamber loaded and ready to go.

In the final analysis, center-body hits are what will save our day. I train to shoot the gun to empty, sometimes on single targets, often on two or three targets. I practice at EXTREME close range a great deal, from zero feet in contact with the target to maybe ten feet. I see my likeliest possible problems as arising at an ATM or in a C-store, and it's probably gonna be highly personal! Of course, I also do some shooting out to 100 yards....one just never knows. Anyone who thinks he's safe from my carry gun at that range has a BIG surprise coming.

Us lefties are at a disadvantage in the vehicle, where our shooting hand is cramped against the driver's door and impeded by the seat belt. Occasionally, I will sit in the truck with a target right at the window, and shoot after a sneaky transfer from left hand to right hand. I suspect that the better routine is having a "car gun" handy to the right hand, and doing the shooting with that. I'm studying now on how to keep a gun handy-but-hidden in the trucks...between driver's seat and console looks best so far.

All such discussions aside, there's NO doubt that the First Rule of these extreme social interactions is, "HAVE A GUN!" ANY gun whips bare hands all to blazes, and the reason I carry defensive guns is simply to give me options that being in a dis-armed condition does not allow.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Ironsights, Nice outfit. See? great minds think alike:drinks:
I've read the law(ATF's opinion, really), and it appears it's only an "other" if the gun is disguised as a wallet. Even if it can be fired from the holster, as all holsters that don't cover the trigger allow you to do, as long as the gun is visible, it's OK. It's those wallet holsters that completely conceal the gun, but allow it to be fired without removal, that are discontinued. My holster (and yours), are simply square bottom holsters, made to protect the pocket. To steal a line used all the time by one of our posters, "That's my story, and I'm sticking to it" If I get any flak, I'll make another, with the lifting cutout at the muzzle.
I appreciate the heads up though. I thought long and hard before cutting the opening. I know that even when you're right, those lawyers can bankrupt you keeping you out of jail!:twisted:

[badgeredd]

DEAR LORD, I must be the only one on this forum that like the 40 S&W. My carry gun I happened across and have never had a function problem with it. Fortunately I haven't had to use it in a situation that was live or die. I love my Beretta Cougar with its 8 shot magazine. Easily concealed and comfortable for me to carry. I sure hope I never need more than 8 rounds! I also carry a custom 1917 Smith on occasion as the winter weather allows. But as my nephew (county deputy) says the first shot is the most important, one may not get a second if he can't connect with the first!

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Bruce, I'm also a diabetic, and have no tollerence for heat. That's one reason I bought the Seecamp, keeping my Colt Junior rust free was becoming a chore. The other was the step up to .32 from .25. I occasionally used to teach combat shooting(not PPC combat), and I have a system which works very well, which might interest you, and others of a like mind.
Having been in extreme combat situations a few times in my career, I realized how the adrenaline rush makes it almost impossible to acquire and maintain any semblance of sight alignment, and decided to learn "Point Shooting" as practiced by many great pistol shots.
I got into archery back before the days of compound bows with sights, and the method used to gain accuracy, was to start close up to the target, and move back as aim improved. I combined this with another method for teaching point shooting.
First you purchase a cheap hollow Fiberglas fishing rod( for lightness), remove the guides and cut it to about three feet. Wrap the large end with enough masking or electrical tape to fit snugly in you gun barrel. You use this by walking around(inside the house will do), pointing the tip of the rod at different objects. The person who described this method(can't remember his name, may have been Arvo Ojalla(Sp.?). prescribed cutting holes, of diminishing sizes, in a sheet of cardboard, and trying to poke the stick(he used a wood dowel), through the holes. This teaches eye muscle coordination. Anywhere the tip of the rod was, is where the bullet would hit. An interesting example of eye muscle coordination, is that although it's not necessary, when you point your finger at an object, it's always(depending on your eyesight) just about dead on. That's why grips that point the pistol where your index finger would be, are so helpfull.

I combined this with the archery system, by mounting a sheet of plywood, horizontally between two posts, and stapling five cheap white paper plates to it. You stand about five feet away, and looking only at the target, draw your pistol, shoot from the waist, one shot in each plate. When you can regularly drill each plate, you move back another five feet and repeat. With practice, most shooters are able to reach twenty feet or more before misses become unavoidable. The beauty of this, is that it defeats the ability of adrenaline to affect your ability to hit your target. I tried to sell this method to NYPD, but got nowhere, it not being adaptable to the large numbers of shooters being taught. I then started teaching fellow officers on an informal basis.

Not trying to be a know-it-all, just trying, in my old age, to pass some valuable hard-learned info, on to my like minded friends, rather than have it be lost.
Morgan

[MT Gianni]

Bruce, When you can open the door of a truck and fire between the door post and the door staying with maximum concealment that is the lefty advantage. We rightys stick out way to far when doing that and suffer more getting the rig at a good angle. Gianni

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Bruce, When you can open the door of a truck and fire between the door post and the door staying with maximum concealment that is the lefty advantage. We rightys stick out way to far when doing that and suffer more getting the rig at a good angle. Gianni

I've heard that's why the Brits drive on the left side. It originally started in horse and buggy days, where they sat on the right to be able to use sword and pistol.

Ever notice lighthouse steps usually follow the fort and castle tradition, and circle left? This is to give the defender the advantage of being able to use his sword or other weapon in his right hand going down the stairs to ward off attackers. Just a bit of trivia.:)
Morgan

[JIMinPHX]

Rules of gunfighting –

1) Bring a gun, preferably a long gun, but any gun is better than none.
2) Bring friends, preferably friends with long guns.
3) He who wins is all that maters.



4) The only thing better than winning a gun fight is not getting into one.

[Bret4207]

Any gun is better than no gun. Far too many mall ninjas these days worrying about being overwhelmed by groups of 25-30 methhead biker zombies. I've found if you stay out of crack houses, drug bars, other guys bedrooms and away from live fire zones anything from a 5 shot 38 to 18 shot Glock will do just fine. Use what you want and stop worrying about the other guys choice.

[mike in co]

Sorry. To my body size, anything over a 10 shot G27 is too large to conceal without a jacket. I intend to carry EVERYWHERE, so "concealed" means "IWB-Under a shirt".

And if I have only 5 rounds of .357 I'm good for 5 single-taps vs the necessary 5 DOUBLE taps with a 9mm...

Well, since I don't carry .38 SP I really can't comment. I carry Full Pressure /+P .357... and can shoot them well.

See "body size" above. A big gun with lots of bullets doesn't help if you can't carry it 24/7.

A G23 is "duty size" for me...



At last, somthing I can agree with. ;)


most people cannot stand to shoot full power 357 loads from a small frame light gun. if you can good for you, but you change the criteria when you go from 38 spcl to 357 mag. you'll notice i said 9x21...not 9mm. my load is a 135 at 1300 fps.....16 to 21 rds depending on mag. you get 5 single taps, i get 5 tripple taps and the gun is not empty.

one thing you brought up, that is very true, size matters. each of us has a size that they are comfortable with in carry.

just to show you that i'm not hooked on a single size or caliber, on the road, as in open car carry i use a 10 shot cz97 45acp with a security six for back up....lol

mike in co

[Old Ironsights]

most people cannot stand to shoot full power 357 loads from a small frame light gun. if you can good for you,

Actually, if there is one thing I hate to shoot from my SP101 it's a 125gr +P load.

What I'm most accurate with from a snubby, whether it be from a .357 or .40S&W is a 180gr bullet at about 1000fps. I am both more accurate and have quicker followup.


but you change the criteria when you go from 38 spcl to 357 mag.

Yep. That's why I don't carry .38s...

And really, the only reason I'm not carrying a .45ACP is (A) I don't have/can't afford one right now and (B) .357 is more versatile than a .45

"catsneeze" loads from a 1911 just don't seem to work well... ;)

[DLCTEX]

I spent three years traveling all over the states and often sleeping in the back seat of my supercab pickup in assorted places. After someone tried to get into my vehicle with me one night in Alabama, I bought a pistol (H&R 22/22mag. revolver) and slept with it under my pillow in the truck and in some pretty seedy looking motels. After about six months I tried firing it, and of course it wouldn,t fire due to a broken spring. There was no other outward symptoms to indicate a problem. I will not carry anything that hasn't been thoroughly tested and then retested regularly. Still stuff happens so regular use will hopefully reveal problems before your life depends on it. My carry gun, usually in my vehicle under the seat , Is a 1911 that I've had almost 13 years and have run many thousand rounds through. DALE

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Careful with that "holster"... When there's a gun in it it's now considered an NFA "other"... That's why they aren't available for sale any more.




Ironsights, I did some checking, and came up with this. Scroll down to "Wallet Guns", It appears I'm alright with this holster.:-D
Morgan


http://www.atf.gov/pub/fflnews_pub/ffl0897.pdf

[Old Ironsights]

I'm not so sure... It's a very fine distinction and puts you very much at the"mercy" of a prety unmerciful organization.

WALLET GUNS

ATF has received numerous inquiries regarding wallet guns and wallet holsters.

As defined in section 5845(e) of the National Firearms Act (NFA), the term “any other weapon”
includes certain concealable weapons. Various types of disguised weapons such as cane guns, belt buckle guns, and briefcase guns (with remote control firing mechanisms) fall within the “any other weapon” category. It is unlawfil to make, possess, or transfer such firearms without complying with the provisions of the NFA.

During the 1970’s, ATF determined that various small handguns combined with certain “wallet
holsters” fall into the “any other weapon” category and are subject to the provisions of the NFA.

These wallet holsters are generally rectangular in shape, are designed to disguise the appearance of the handgun, and are designed to allow the weapon to be fired while it is contained within the wallet.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/Rugertank.jpg
This seems to apply to your cut-out holster...

The handgun combined with the wallet holster constitutes an NFA firearm.
A conventional pistol or revolver which is possessed without the wallet holster would not be an NFA firearm. A wallet holster alone is not subject to NFA controls and cannot be registered or transferred a- a firearm. Firearms contained in conventional holsters, trouser pockets, purses, gun cases, or various other forms of carrying cases have not been determined to fall within the definition of an “any other weapon,” even though it maybe possible to discharge a firearm while it is carried in such a manner.

In order for an individual to lawfully “make” a wallet gun, that is to say, acquire both the
handgun and the wallet holster, the person must first submit an Application to Make and Register a Firearm (ATF Form 1), pay a $200.00 making tmq and receive approval of the application. The serial number appearing on the handgun should be used to register the firearm. Transfer of a wallet gun requires an approved transfer application and payment of a $5 transfer tax. A transfer will not be approved unless the wallet gun has been registered to the transferor.

Mere sale or possession of the wallet holster without the handgun is not a violation of the
NFA. However, 18 U.S.C. section 2 provides that a person who aids or abets another person in the commission of an offense is also responsible for the offense. Therefore, sale or distribution of a wallet holster with knowledge that it will be used to make an unregistered NFA firearm may also place the seller or distributor of the holster in violation of the NFA.

Be very careful...

[Morgan Astorbilt]

I'm probably wrong in doing so, but I'm going to use the "Reasonable Man" defense. As you can see, even on this side, the gun isn't completely hidden, as the bottom of the grip protrudes. Even if it didn't, the outside of the holster hardly looks like a wallet, what with all those rivets, and the gun showing through the hole. Would a reasonable man think this was a wallet?[smilie=1:
This not withstanding, your right in the "Mercy of an unmerciful organization" statement. My only posibble Ace in the Hole, is that I'm a retired PO. Don't know if that even counts for anything anymore.:(

Without the hole, I have trouble drawing the gun without the holster pulling out of the pocket. I'll try moving the hole forward.
Morgan

[Old Ironsights]

Note it says "disguise the appearance of" not "completely conceal the" Big difference

Look at the way my Hedly is made. Since the gun pocket is moulded and seperate, (the leather square is only attached via the two Chicago Screws and can be removed at will) the "concealer" piece of square leather doesn't infringe on the draw at all.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_0332-1.jpg

Really, IMO and in my interpretation of the Law (and knowledge of BATFE policy), you is screwed if you show that to a Fed.

[wills]

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/nfa/nfa_handbook/chapter4.pdf
http://www.atf.gov/docs/Identification_of_Firearms_pt2.pdf

[Old Ironsights]

That's what I thought. See Pg 12 if the Identification PDF. Good pics there.

If it's got a trigger cutout, it's an AOW.

[Geraldo]

It's my understanding that this part of the law originally had to do with a Galco holster, which when combined with a pistol created an AOW. In theory the holster allowed the pistol to be fired while still in the holster (more on this in a bit). Whether your very similar holster would qualify as an AOW is known only to the BATF, and you could probably get contradictory rulings on this.

I think it's a bad idea for a few reasons. First, unless you relish the thought of Federal prison time, it's foolish to gamble on an ATF desk jockey's interpretation of the law. Second, you can draw a small pistol very quickly and easily from a pocket holster (I used to carry a Seecamp LWS .32 in a Kramer holster). Finally, I think any gimicky "fire it from the leather" job increases the likelihood of malfunction because the slide can or does rub on the leather.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Ironsides I give up!!!
I went on the Seecamp web site, they were of the same opinion!!

I accessed Hedly's, off the Seecamp site, and found they were no longer taking orders. There's another, Aker Express , sold by Seecamp, and I'm waiting for some feedback as to which is easiest to draw your gun from.
With my holster, I can lift the gun out of the holster with just my trigger finger, leaving the holster in the pocket. Does yours do this? If not, how do you draw you pistol keeping the holster in the pocket?
Thanks to everybody for your help, better safe than sorry.
Morgan

[Old Ironsights]

Hey, wasn't trying to force you to do anything, but I really don't want to se a guy go to jail... especially after he as much as admitted on a public forum that he committed (was committing) a "felony". [smilie=1:

Now, if you want to ask me what I think about that law & or if I agree with it, that's a whole 'nother story. :mrgreen:

My gun draws with the second & third fingers, leaving the holster in the pocket and the trigger finger alongside the trigger... where it is supposed to be.

I will take some detailed shots of the Hedley & my gun & gun hand.

I was also sorry to hear he had stopped Making, but then, he is 84 or some such.

I don't think his holsters are Patented, so with some good pics, a decent Leather Man could dupe it.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

No problem, I never doubted your intent, and thank you for bothering to return posts after I resisted. I'm looking forward to your photos. I originally made my holster without the hole, adding it when I had trouble drawing without the holster pulling up also. Seecamp sells the "Aker Express" line of holsters, $44 in Roughout, and $111 in Sharkskin. They're all stitched, having no Chicago screws. Have you any opinion of them?
Morgan

[Old Ironsights]

Looking at the details of the pictures I've already posted:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_0334.jpg

Note the One rivit & 2 Chicago Screws. The one Rivit holds the Holster portion together. The two Chicago Screws holds the rectangular leather flap on the actual holster.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_0334-1.jpg

This bit (below) is the actual holster part. It is Wet-Moulded to the gun and is the ONLY part of the holster actually "gripping" the gun - i.e. uout hand easily grabs the grip while the gun is in its moulded pocket.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/b0089a94.jpg

As the Concealment Flap is essentially loose, your hand passes easily and natutally between it and the gun/holster. WHen your hand is between the two pieces, the flap is "locked" into your pocket by friction & the action of the top of the flap on the inner top seam of your pants pocket.

It works best in a wallet pocket, but it works OK in a front pocket too.

Boy, we really hijacked this one, didn't we? :hijack:

[Old Ironsights]

... Seecamp sells the "Aker Express" line of holsters, $44 in Roughout, and $111 in Sharkskin. They're all stitched, having no Chicago screws. Have you any opinion of them?
Morgan
No, my gun came with the Hedley, so I never tried anything else.

IMO Roughout - at least on one side, is really important. The "pocket side" of the concealment flap (maximum surface area) is rough.

Given that these are Stainless guns, I don't think that you would have any trouble wet-moulding a gun pocket then screwing it to a concealment flap.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Thanks, I deleted my photos, I'd appreciate it if everyone else did the same. My mind's already working regarding design. Scary world we live in.
Morgan

[Old Ironsights]

Fixed: ;)

Here you go, lotsa pics: http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/Hedley/

A few of the important ones:

Here's the back of the "holster" without the Concealment Panel.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/Hedley/82a643b8.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/Hedley/536a0224.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/Hedley/495f5c0b.jpg
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/Hedley/5a19425d.jpg

The rest will help you make your own...

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Went down to the shop and hit the holster on the bandsaw. I think this conforms. I left a portion to push down with my thumb if need be. I'll use it until I purchase or make another. What's your opinion?
Morgan
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/holster1.jpg
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/pgfaini/holster2.jpg

[Old Ironsights]

Still a No Go as long as you can shoot it without drawing it.... IMO.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

No, that's definitely not right. The "other" designation has to do with guns disguised as other items such as Penguns, Pipe guns,(tobacco pipe), Cane guns, Bolt guns (made to look like a large bolt, made and carried by motorcycle gangs), all these I remember from my police days. It's only the "Wallet Gun" being added to the list that's "new" to me, since these holsters were commonly used by police officers, for their backup guns, particularly the High Standard Double Derringer .22 Mag.(My partner had one), which both shots could be fired from within the holster. I had one for my Colt Junior.25. that hid the gun but you couldn't shoot without "opening" it.
Believe me, for something to be a crime, ALL elements have to be present. I spent four months in the Police Academy learning this.

I've read the elements in the ATF bulletin:
1- A wallet gun has to disguise it(as a wallet), and
2- allow it to be fired without removal.
Even before I cut my holster down, it really didn't look like a wallet, but after so many posters thought it did, I cut it down for fear that some PO might decide the same. So far, holsters that allow you to shoot without removing the pistol are still legal. But, who knows for how long, what with the election coming up.
Morgan

[JIMinPHX]

Lets see how the Heller case goes.

[Old Ironsights]

...
Believe me, for something to be a crime, ALL elements have to be present. ...

I think you and the BATFE may disagree on that... they don't play by the "normal" rules. :roll:

[Morgan Astorbilt]

I think you and the BATFE may disagree on that... they don't play by the "normal" rules. :roll:

Point well taken, but right now, it's just a square bottom holster, with an exposed trigger. Pulling the trigger will fire one shot, and jam the gun.

Jim, What are the details of the Heller case? Does it involve this subject?
Morgan

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Something just occurred to me. Back when I worked the "Summer Squad" (plainclothes) in Coney Island, I wore shorts and a T shirt. Carried my Det. Spl. in a crotch holster. This made quite a bulge, and I used to say "it impressed the girls". It occurs to me, that if I could have fired it without drawing it(which involved opening my fly). What would the ATF have called it?:-D:-D:-D
Morgan, Trying to add a bit of levity to a worrisome subject.

[Geraldo]

It occurs to me, that if I could have fired it without drawing it(which involved opening my fly). What would the ATF have called it?

I don't know what BATF would call it, but I'd call it a real bad day. :shock:

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Ouch!!!
Actually, that was one of the most asked questions. If it weren't a revolver, and it went off accidently, it might hit me in the left foot if I was standing, and the left knee or calf, if sitting. Besides being uncomfortable, it was almost impossible to draw while sitting, and I always removed it from the holster before getting into the car while driving. The best holster in a car is a cross draw, the second best an ankle holster on the left side(for a right hand shooter).
Morgan

[Old Ironsights]

Actually, the BATFE adresses this in one of the linked documents...

Firing from a pocket (etc) is "legal", if ill advised.

My guess is, that, unlike a Wallet Gun, a "pocket shot" has an EXTREMELY limited range/accuracy potential, as well as "marking" the shooter... (via Limp and the flames on the pants...)

OTOH, a Wallet Gun can be retrieved, aimied and fired while being largely unnoticed before and after the shot... because the gun is essentially concealed.

Again, this is speculation, and I do not agree with the "law", but it is what it is until we get rid of the BATFE...

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Actually, the BATFE adresses this in one of the linked documents...

Firing from a pocket (etc) is "legal", if ill advised.

Again, this is speculation, and I do not agree with the "law", but it is what it is until we get rid of the BATFE...

Boy! They're really trying to micromanage us, aren't they? They assume authorities not given to them under the law, and no one contests it.
When I was a cop, I had to enforce the law, and apply it to events. They do more than enforce the law, they interpret it as they see fit, and write their own regulations. That's the best example of "Draconian Rule", I've seen in this country. Some day, they'll lock up a minister for three years, for bringing a box of prohibited ammo into Kalifonia.
Morgan