Ready To Start Reloading .357 and .38 Special

[Bigscot]

I bought a used Ruger GP100 earlier this year. I have ordered dies and .357 brass. I have a bunch of .38 special brass. I have cast about 60 lbs of H&G 158 gr Keith gc boolits and some others. I am now ready to start stuffing brass. I have Unique, 2400, Bullseye, WC 840, 296 and some 231. I was wondering what would work best with .357 and .38 loads and any load recommendations. I am looking at mainly plinking/target loads in .38 and plinking/target/backup hunting loads in .357.

Bigscot

[reddog81]

Bullseye will work great for light 38 target loads. Unique will be good for regular or +p loads and 2400 works good for light .357 May loads. 296 is good for heavy .357 loads.
sounds like you're pretty well stocked and need to start reloading ASAP.
lyman #49 is a good reloading manual and will get you the appropriate powder charges and explain the reloading process in detail.

[rintinglen]

You picked a good place to start! The 38/357 is about the perfect combination to learn cast boolit loading with. A few pointers to help you avoid stumbling on the way.

First, make sure you bell the case enough to allow the boolit to seat without scraping the sides. Some of the photos I have seen are a little too skimpy in this regard.

Second, start with the 38 loads first, you'll have more joy if you have early success, and the 38 is a tad more cast friendly. (But only a tad.) A .358 or .359 sizer is likely to be your best choice. The Lee push through sizers are inexpensive and work well with Liquid lubes. If you haven't decided on a lube yet, I recommend you look at the Lube section here and take a gander at the Ben's Liquid Lube postings. It's cheap, it's easy to make, easy to use, works well at pistol velocities and stays crunchy even in milk. (OK, maybe not the later.)

BE-86, Titegroup, Power pistol, Red Dot, PB, Hp38, AA no.2; virtually every pistol and shotgun powder made can and has been made to work in the 38. There are literally hundreds of loads that work in the 38, but here are few stand outs. 3.5 grains of Bullseye with your 158 grain boolit in 38 cases. If your 357 won't shoot these loads, it just won't shoot. 5.0 grains of Unique was Old Elmer's choice. you could do worse for a +P load. I use WW-231 in my 38's: 4.1 grains for my standard 158 grain boolits, 4.5 for plus P. The powder manufacturers have data on their websites that is tested: you pays your money and you takes your choice.

The 357 is a bit more limited, only a few powder will give true magnum performance. AA no.9, WW296, N-110, H-110, IMR 4227, Bluedot, all have been used, but for my money the best choice is 2400. 14.5 grains is a time tested load that will give you +1300 fps, but unlike some of the others--yes I'm talking to you, WW-296--it can be downloaded and still perform well. 12.5 grains under a Lyman 358-477 was a favorite of mine for a lighter training load in my M-66 S&W. One thing to beware of; H-110 and N-110 are very different powders. A safe max load of H-110 will be a 20-30% OVERLOAD if used with N-110.

Goodluck and good shooting!

[JSH]

I know this will draw fire from quite a few.
Be aware that it may or may not shoot 38's as well as one would like. Yes you can shoot 38's in 357's and they will go bang with no ill harm to the gun. However 38'smay build up lead, carbon and lube in the cylinder and not let a 357 chamber easily.
My findings in SW and Ruger, I shoot 357's and 38's in guns chambered for each and don't mix and match anymore. Doing this my accuracy has stayed to where it pleases me and if it doesn't it is me and not a gun or ammo issue.

[SteveS]

A GP100. H&G 158 gr Keith gc boolits. Bullseye, Unique and 2400. :shock:

I'm not sure it gets much better than that.

Slug your chamber throats so you know what size you need. Select your lube. Buy a thousand gas checks and standard primers. Get a good loading manual.

I'd suggest putting the .38 special cases away. You can load the .357 cases to do anything you need.

Then, have at it, hoss. There's fun in your future.

[bedbugbilly]

You are going to have soooo much fun! I usually use Bulls Eye in my 38s and Unique in my 357s but you have a good selection of powders that you list. If you don't have one of the Lyman Cast Boolit Handbooks - get one. I have the 2nd and 3rd edition and use them all the time for load data reference. Somewhere here on this site, a member posted a link to a PDF file of the 3rd edition - I don't have the link but maybe someone else does?

Some will recommend that you only use 357 brass but you can shoot anything from 38 Colt Short, 38 Colt Long, 38 Special and 357 in a 357. I do all the time as I like playing with the different cartridges and boolit weights/designs. Just clean your chambers well.

Good luck and have fun!

[Silver Jack Hammer]

You can't go wrong with what you are starting with and the advice you are receiving here. Have fun and keep us posted. What alloy did you use to cast your boolits? You will likely discover that softer alloy is more favorable to lower pressure, and harder alloy is more applicable to higher pressure loads. Your GP100, the powders you mentioned and your mold will serve you well. A general rule of thumb is faster burning powder for lower velocity target loads, and slower burner powder for high velocity magnum loads. Unique is your middle of road good for everything powder.

Keep us posted, hit the range often, take lots of notes on what results you get.

[williamwaco]

1) DO NOT LOAD .357 LOADS IN .38 CASES. SOONER OR LATER ONE OF THEM WILL FIND ITS WAY INTO A .38 SPECIAL CYLINDER.


2) There are no magic powders. In this market you might not be able to find what you want. In this case a burn rate chart and the Lyman Pistol and Revolver Guide will guide you to a good load.

3) I have never owned a .38 Special revolver. I have owned around 30 - .357 Magnum revolvers. I currently own 2 Rugers and 4 Smiths. I own around 200 .357 Magnum cases and upward of 5,000 .38 special cases. I load .357s in batches of 50 and .38s in batches of 300.

On average, I fire around 1,500 to 2,000 .38s for each 50 .357s.

With a scope, either the Ruger or the Smith will group 6 shots in one half to one inch at 25 yards.

When the gun gets really dirty - say 250 rounds without cleaning, cartridges will need a light push instead of just falling into the chamber.

All revolver cartridges will leave a ring of powder and lube fowling in the cylinder. This is easy to remove and has never caused me any problem. Maybe when I get a little more experience, I will experience some of these problems. I have only been shooting .38s in .357s for 60 years.

4) You are about to have lots of fun. Loadem and shootem.

PS: My favorite .38 load is 3.2 gr Bulls Eye with any bullet from 100 to 170 grains. My favorite bullet is any flat base wad cutter.

[rintinglen]

While William has a 15 year head start on me,my experience echoes his. I too have fired just about 30 38's for every 1 357, and and I have had no trouble cleaning my cylinders. I clean my guns every time after they are used before they are put away. You should too.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

I load both 38 and 357 using a set of carbo dies for the 38. When I want to load 357 I use spacer rings made for that purpose. The system works well for me without any problems. I keep track of my brass, keep it cleaned and of proper length. I do a lot of wadcutter work even with the 357. An old handloader saying is that " 357's make better 38's". LLS

[SteveS]

William and Glen, why do you prefer the .38 special case to the .357?

[dragon813gt]

I use 231 for plinking and H110/W296 for full power loads. Load them all in 357 cases since I see no reason to use 38 cases. Bullseye will work well for light loads. Unique works well for midrange loads. And 2400 works well for midrange to magnum loads. You won't get the velocity of 296 but it can be down loaded to lower levels unlike 296.

[williamwaco]

William and Glen, why do you prefer the .38 special case to the .357?


You are kidding? Right?

.38 special cases are free for just the effort of picking them up and .38 loads are fun to shoot.

.357 cases cost up to 10 cents each, and i only use .357 loads for hunting.

[SteveS]

.38 special cases are free for just the effort of picking them up and .38 loads are fun to shoot.

.357 cases cost up to 10 cents each, and i only use .357 loads for hunting.

Ok, free cases.

.38 special loads are fun to shoot, whether loaded in .38 or .357 cases. Accuracy seems to be the same no matter which case is used.

[dragon813gt]

Where are these free 38 Special cases? There is no revolver brass at the ranges I belong to. There are five that I check periodically and I might pick up ten cases per year.

[williamwaco]

Ok, free cases.

.38 special loads are fun to shoot, whether loaded in .38 or .357 cases. Accuracy seems to be the same no matter which case is used.


Agreed. I can detect no difference in accuracy.

[RogerDat]

Have managed in 38 special to accumulate 3,000+ cases for modest cost, my .357 mag cases number in the few hundred and cost a good deal more. Even if not finding them on the range at gun shows 38 brass goes maybe 5 cents a case while 357 is better than double that and I can seldom find 357 as range brass. I would suggest posting in WTB and see what you can turn up for a deal on 357 brass, or just spring for a big batch of starline and know you are good for reloading it for a long time.

One of the joys of handloading (and casting) is you can experiment. If the 38 cases in your 357 revolver are making a mess or lack accuracy then just download some 357 cases to a milder plinking and target round. Use the starting load from the manuals and in small batches increase by .2 or .3 grains from there to max. Find out what works for what you are shooting.

+1 on the 45/45/10 or Bens liquid lube made from Lee Liquid Alox and Johnson's paste or liquid wax. Dump a few hundred cast bullets in a 1 qt. ziplock freezer bag, squirt a thin line of lube and tumble the sealed bag. Dump out on wax paper. Fast, easy and cheap.

For years wife shot a 38 special pistol, I bought ammo for her and used it in a 357 pistol to save money. Did no harm to my 357. Matter of fact the speed loaders for SD use are all 38 so they can be used in either firearm. If the situation is not resolved with the first 5 rounds of 357 reloading with 38 won't be a problem, still works better than throwing rocks. BTW - I am in the camp of store bought ammo for self defense. I'll load some close to it in weight and power, and fire a few store bought to maintain a comfort with that ammo. Really don't want some personal injury lawyer showing up with an "expert" to testify that for some wacky reason my lead pills were too "brutal".

[Petrol & Powder]

Bigscot
First - excellent choice in gun and cartridge ! I can't think of a better place to start.
The 38 Special is by far my favorite handgun cartridge.

Lots of good advice already so I will not add much.
As to powders, you have a lot of choices but ww231 (HP-38) is a good choice. I use 4.4 grains of 231 behind a 158 gr LSWC. That load is at the upper edge of standard pressure for 38 Special (some manuals place it in +P territory) but it works well for me in a variety of revolvers. You can drop that charge weight a little but I find my guns shoot a bit better at 4.4 grains.
Bullseye is a classic powder for 38 special as is Unique. I find 231 and Bullseye meter better than Unique when using a progressive loader.

I don't shoot as many .357 magnum loads but H110 (ww296) works well for magnum loads.

A couple of words about 38 vs 357 casings.
1. Don't load magnum charges in 38 Special cases. The GP-100 can certainly take it but the risk of losing control of one of those rounds and having it end up in someone else's gun is too great. Once you assemble a cartridge there's no way to tell it apart from any other 38 special cartridge. It's just not worth the risk to make an over pressure cartridge that appears to be a 38 Special.

2. Just about every time the topic of 38 Specials in .357 magnum chambers comes up, someone will start talking about the alleged "crud ring". I've been shooting longer than some members of this forum have been alive. I've shot FAR more 38 Special rounds than .357 magnum rounds and a LOT of those rounds were fired in magnum length chambers. I've never found the so called "crud ring", "carbon ring" or whatever you want to call it; to be a problem. Clean your guns once in awhile !

By the way, that GP-100 is a fine gun. Super strong, durable and accurate. You will not wear it out !

Good Luck

[saleen322]

Bullseye works well in 38s as does 231 which you have. I shoot Clays and some WST in light target 38 loads now only because they burn so clean. 2400 and, with heavier loads, 296 works well with 357 magnums. Good luck.

[tazman]

I once had a "crud ring" in my 357 that was so hard it took almost 3 hours cleaning time to get it out. I shot nearly 400 rounds through the gun, all 38 special, one afternoon and cleaned the gun the next day. That ring was so hard it was almost impossible to remove and didn't want to dissolve for some reason. It had built up solid in the front of the chamber and looked as if it had shortened the chamber to 38 special length.
I have since changed boolit lubes and no longer have that any difficulty getting the ring out.

[williamwaco]

I once had a "crud ring" in my 357 that was so hard it took almost 3 hours cleaning time to get it out. I shot nearly 400 rounds through the gun, all 38 special, one afternoon and cleaned the gun the next day. That ring was so hard it was almost impossible to remove and didn't want to dissolve for some reason. It had built up solid in the front of the chamber and looked as if it had shortened the chamber to 38 special length.
I have since changed boolit lubes and no longer have that any difficulty getting the ring out.


I sure would like to know which lobe caused the problem? ? ?

[RogerDat]

Almost forgot I use both Unique and 2400 for .357 and Unique and Titegroup for 38 special. I like Titegroup but it is a very dense powder so not going to come anywhere near filling a case, makes it harder to visually spot a squib or double charge. It is my broad use pistol powder, sort of like a lot of people are about Bulls Eye. Like TG and availability has been pretty good too. Unique and 2400 on the other hand have spent a lot of time being unavailable.

[tazman]

I sure would like to know which lobe caused the problem? ? ?

It was a lube I purchased on eBay. I believe it was tac1 but I am not certain. It was a green color if that makes a difference. I was sizing and lubing using a Lyman 45.
I have since switched to White Label X-LOX and tumble lube most boolits. This lube cleans out of cylinders easily and leaves no leading at all in my guns with my loads. Thus far my accuracy is the same or better than with the other lube.

[williamwaco]

It was a lube I purchased on eBay. I believe it was tac1 but I am not certain. It was a green color if that makes a difference. I was sizing and lubing using a Lyman 45.
I have since switched to White Label X-LOX and tumble lube most boolits. This lube cleans out of cylinders easily and leaves no leading at all in my guns with my loads. Thus far my accuracy is the same or better than with the other lube.

+1 on Xlox. I am trying BLL now it is great too.

[Kilroy08]

Welcome to the GP-100 first time loaders club.

My father had a Rockchucker he bought back in the early '80s and never took out of the box. 30 years later, I bought my GP-100. I cleaned up the press and dug out his stash of once fired brass and was off to the races.

I did a run of .38-44 equivalent ammo a while back since I was short on .357 magnum cases. After buying two .38s, I made sure to use that stuff up during the Ruger's next range session. Even though I made sure the boxes were labeled properly, all it takes is one forgotten round rolling around in the bottom of the range bag.

[DerekP Houston]

Just got done with a batch of 158gr SWC on a charge of titegroup. Shot like a dream out of my model 10, nice tight groups.

[bedbugbilly]

As far as "crud" build up in chambers when shooting shorter cartridges in a 357 . . .

All I shoot is my own cast boolits. I tumble lube them all in paste wax/alox and that's it. Doesn't make a difference whether it's a Colt 38 Short, Long or 38 Special . . I never have had issues with build up in the chambers. Usually they are over Bulls Eye or Red Dot. Sometimes Unique.

As far as 357s . . . I have loaded and fired 'em through my 357 revolvers but at my age and the way my hands are, etc. , I just plain don't like the punishment they hand out. 38 Specials . . . most of mine are loaded over 3.5 gr. of Bulls Eye or about the same of Red Dot . . . and with those, I can shoot all day long.

Now, I have my 357 cases saved for my 357 Handi Rifle but just recently got some 360DW casings to try as well (360 Dan Wesson) - they are a tad longer than 357 casings.

I have found 38 spl. casings at several of the ranges I shoot at in AZ but not too often - most are 9mm, 40 S & W or 45 ACP that end up laying around. But I usually buy "mixed head stamp" range brass for 38 spl. and probably have around 4,000 casings that will last forever as they can be reloaded so many times. 357 casings? I've had to buy all of the ones I have and they have run around twice what I could by the 38 special casings for.

In my 38 spl. casings, I usually use a 147 or 158 grain boolit with say 3.5 gr. of Red Dot. On my 38 Colt shorts I use either a 115 gr or 121 gr boolit with 2.0 gr of Red Dot. That translates into less powder and less led on the 38 Colt Shorts and just as much fun shooting. The same with 357 as compared to 38 spl. - maybe not less lead but less powder. What can I say . . . call me "frugal" or "cheap" . . . they both mean the same! LOL

[tazman]

I also use that 3.5 grain load of Bullseye for most 38 special rounds. I do go lower(3.0-3.3) for target wad cutters.

[onehousecat]

You are starting out with the most versatile and fun cartridge combo of all, IMHO. When I was young, I tried probably a dozen or more different powders. After awhile, Unique and 2400 accounted for more than 95% of my loadings with 296 making up the balance. The first two powders are so versatile that I stopped buying others. 296 was reserved for heavy 357 loads.

re "crud ring": I have six 357s, and have never experienced this, nor have I ever known anyone who has. All of my 357s have shot many 38 spl. loads.

Finally, my take on putting 357 loads in 38 spl. cases. It is a dreadful idea. The thought of a full 357 load finding its way into my 38 spl. revolvers, especially my J Frame, makes me physically ill.

[Scharfschuetze]

You are starting out with the most versatile and fun cartridge combo of all, IMHO

Amen to that!

I just finished a run of about 900 mid range 357 Magnum loads on the Dillon press. Hopefully that'll last me through this month. Sadly I used up the last of my 231 doing so. Guess I'll have to break out the caddy of Unique for the next loading session.

I load all my revolver ammo in the mid-range of velocity and pressure, so in 38 Specials I've always liked either Bullseye or 231 powder behind cast or swaged 148 grain WCs or SWCs. In the 357 I like 231 and Unique behind 146 grain or 158 grain cast boolits for velocities of about 1,000 fps.

In my 357 Rifle, I load a 180 grain cast boolit over the slower powders such as 296 or lately, Hodgdon's Lil'Gun.

[Char-Gar]

I have considerable experience with 38 Special revolvers, 357 Magnum revolvers and reloading for both.

For 38 Special in either revolver I used 3/Bulleye for target/range use under 150-160 grain cast bullets. For full snort loads for I use 3.5/Bulleye over the same bullets.

For 357 Magnum loads a charge of 10 to 13.5 grains of 2400 under the above bullets. For good combustion don't go lower than 10 and 13.5 is plenty for a full snort load. Of course in 357 Magnum cases.

I don't use much Unique, but it can be used successfully in both cases. 4.5/Unique makes a good general range load in the 38 Special cases. 5/Unique makes a good full velocity load the 38 Special.

For the 357 Magnum, Unique can also be used, but I don't have enough experience doing so to feel comfortable about stating a charge weight.

Addendum: The 38/357 revolver is far and away the most useful handgun I know. Handloading brings out the full rainbow of it's colors. You did good!

[Jtarm]

I've never had a lick of trouble shooting .38 brass in .357s. It just requires good cleaning. I've heard claims that accuracy is better in magnum brass, but I've never compared.

My fav "magnum" load is the Skeeter Skelton: 13.5 grains of 2400 behind the Lyman 358156 HP in .38 special cases, seated/crimped the grease groove.

Bullseye, Unique and 2400 pretty much cover the spectrum in 38/357, but I can't find any of them, so I've been experimenting with Clean Shot and Power Pistol for light to moderate loads in .38 special cases. Both show promise but the PP really stands out. 5.0 grains behind a Lyman 358429 puts 3 in one hole at 25 yards off the bench from am S&W 586. These are 5-shot groups and I'm sure the two flyers in almost every group are due to my rusty precision pistol skills. About 98% of my handgun shooting has been DA revolver for a number of years and for some reason SA triggers, even good ones, feel weird now.

[OS OK]

I once had a "crud ring" in my 357 that was so hard it took almost 3 hours cleaning time to get it out. I shot nearly 400 rounds through the gun, all 38 special, one afternoon and cleaned the gun the next day. That ring was so hard it was almost impossible to remove and didn't want to dissolve for some reason. It had built up solid in the front of the chamber and looked as if it had shortened the chamber to 38 special length.
I have since changed boolit lubes and no longer have that any difficulty getting the ring out.

You took the words right out of my mouth…just because you can load the .38's in the .357 cylinder doesn't mean you should make a habit of it or you too will find your cylinder all gunked up! Hard to clean?..Yep!

[71/84Mauser]

Brownell's makes a lead removal kit it works great at removing lead and any other residue. It's called Lewis Lead Remover. Use it in all my .38's and 45's

[Char-Gar]

I have been hearing about the awful crud ring buildup in 357 Magnum revolvers when fired with 38 Special rounds for over 50 years. I have fired tens of thousands of such rounds with nary a problem. I gave the cylinder charge holes a good scrubbing at the end of each shooting sessions as I do with every sixgun.

Clymer have been making a special reamer to clean this crud ring out for many years. Some years back, I bought one, thinking I might need it some day. I have never used it.

[Scharfschuetze]

There is no doubting that a ring does build up in the chamber/charge hole when shooting 38 Specials in a 357 Magnum.

During my police days, we practiced and qualified with 38 Specials in our 357 revolvers. I often fired hundreds of rounds in a day's training. As I needed my revolver to function 100 percent reliably, 100 percent of time, and to reload magnum duty loads quickly without fail, I started using a variable speed drill with a 375 caliber rifle brass* brush. I screwed the brass brush onto a section of cleaning rod and with a bit of solvent and the brush turned at fairly low RPM, those rings disappeared most ricky tick.

Do you need to do that for a recreational revolver? Maybe not, but I still follow the practice and I just cleaned my Model 28-2's charge holes in such a manner a half an hour ago when I got back from the range this afternoon.

* I use only a brass brush in the chambers/charge holes. I'm not sure that I'd use one of the stainless steel brushes although I've had many friends that did with no apparent marring to the chamber's finish.

[gwpercle]

With so many reloading now it's hard to find free brass anymore.
When I started (1967) people , especially my daddy, thought I was some mad scientist type who was deranged for loading his own. People would shoot boxes of 38 special and leave it on the ground or put box and brass in the trash barrel. Of course I would pick up every one. I've never bought 38 special brass and still have plastic bins of it. 30-30 , I had to buy a model 94 because I have so much of that.The only brass I have ever bought was some 41 magnum for my model 58 S&W.
Things are sure different today...nobody leaves anything reloadable.
Gary

[Petrol & Powder]

I rarely find much revolver brass at the range but the ground is covered with semi-auto casings. It slows me down when I pick up my revolver brass because I can't stand to leave perfectly good 9mm & 45 ACP casings on the ground. :grin:

As for the alleged "crud ring" phenomena, I'm solidly in Char-Gar's camp. I've been doing this a long time and it's a non-issue. Of course I also clean my guns after I shoot them. The chambers (charge holes if you're a S&W disciple) do get dirty with use, but I've NEVER experienced a "crud ring" that required dynamite and a jack hammer to remove ;) - even after firing hundreds of rounds of 38 Specials in .357 mag chambers.

That being said, I also agree with Scharschuetze. If you need the gun to be 100% reliable and easily accept rounds, the chambers need to be clean and dry. It would be reckless to rely on a dirty gun for self defense. That doesn't mean the chambers become incredibly difficult to clean after shooting 38 Special cartridges in .357 magnum chambers but it does mean the chambers should be cleaned before the gun is placed back in service. It's just not as difficult to clean those chambers as some people claim.

[tazman]

I wish I had made a video of the problem I had getting the "crud ring" out of my 357. It would have made a believer out of anyone.
Since I changed bullet lubes, I haven't had the ring since. Those of you who have never experienced it have just never used the combination of ingredients that cause it. The crud ring is a real phenomenon and until you have to deal with it, you simply won't believe how difficult it cam be.
The last time that happened to me was after a single afternoon of shooting. It took much more than a "good scrubbing" to get it out.

[apen]

I wish I had made a video of the problem I had getting the "crud ring" out of my 357. It would have made a believer out of anyone.


I've read/heard people say the same thing too many times for me to want to use .spcl cases. I believe you.
My GP is the funnest gun I have....shoot magnums at paper or 750-800ish velocity loads at the plate rack. No way would I fool with adjusting dies or even buy an extra set for .38spcl loads.

[Petrol & Powder]

"I've read/heard people say the same thing too many times for me to want to use .spcl cases.................."
While I don't doubt Tazman encountered a problem; I've never been that unfortunate. Whatever the issue is, I've never experienced it.

As for reading & hearing things - I've read and heard about bigfoot, mid-Atlantic cougars, opportunities to purchase the Brooklyn bridge and many other things. Reading and/or hearing something is hardly the threshold to establish something as legitimate.

Now maybe there is some unusual combination that can cause some difficult to remove debris but I've never come across it.

[apen]

It doesn't need to be proven in my case. I shoot magnum level loads and I shoot 38 spcl loads. I believe it is possible that the crud ring forms and might be difficult to remove. I believe it is possible that the people saying this really had had this problem. I don't want to be fiddling with a die when I go back and forth. I'm not doubting for a minute that you never had a problem.

Edited: I don't find .38 spl brass lying around on my range. If I had a lot of it, I would shoot it in my 357 and see for myself.

[Petrol & Powder]

believe whatever you want

[apen]

Clymer have been making a special reamer to clean this crud ring out for many years. Some years back, I bought one, thinking I might need it some day. I have never used it.

I wonder why they bothered to make such a thing? Why would they do that?

[Petrol & Powder]

I wonder why they bothered to make such a thing? Why would they do that?

Because someone will believe what they've read & heard and BUY IT.

It is a great business plan !

[apen]

I wish I had made a video of the problem I had getting the "crud ring" out of my 357. It would have made a believer out of anyone.
Since I changed bullet lubes, I haven't had the ring since. Those of you who have never experienced it have just never used the combination of ingredients that cause it. The crud ring is a real phenomenon and until you have to deal with it, you simply won't believe how difficult it cam be.
The last time that happened to me was after a single afternoon of shooting. It took much more than a "good scrubbing" to get it out.

Come clean Tazman...Tell us the truth. Of all the things to lie about-shooting 2" groups with a revolver at 500M.....banging cheerleaders 2 at a time....solving a NY times crossword in under a minute...all these are entirely plausible, but when you claim to have difficulty in cleaning a revolver cylinder because you used 38 cases in a 357 length cylinder, I have to call BS. You should be deeply ashamed of yourself. I don't think you are fully aware of the ramifications of your claim.

[Petrol & Powder]

Come clean Tazman...Tell us the truth. Of all the things to lie about-shooting 2" groups with a revolver at 500M.....banging cheerleaders 2 at a time....solving a NY times crossword in under a minute...all these are entirely plausible, but when you claim to have difficulty in cleaning a revolver cylinder because you used 38 cases in a 357 length cylinder, I have to call BS. You should be deeply ashamed of yourself. I don't think you are fully aware of the ramifications of your claim.

You really should use the purple sarcastic font when you post that type of argument, particularly when it is directed at me and not Tazman.

[tazman]

Come clean Tazman...Tell us the truth. Of all the things to lie about-shooting 2" groups with a revolver at 500M.....banging cheerleaders 2 at a time....solving a NY times crossword in under a minute...all these are entirely plausible, but when you claim to have difficulty in cleaning a revolver cylinder because you used 38 cases in a 357 length cylinder, I have to call BS. You should be deeply ashamed of yourself. I don't think you are fully aware of the ramifications of your claim.

I'm not entirely certain how to take that statement.

[Petrol & Powder]

I think it was directed at me.

I don't doubt that you had a difficult time removing the debris from a magnum chamber after shooting 38 Spl. cartridges.

I do think the issue is rare.

[apen]

It means I believe your account Tazman. The sarcasm may have a been a little thick. It means I don't think other accounts I've heard about are in the same league as bigfoot sighting.

[Petrol & Powder]

But you have no personal experience either?

Can I interest you in ownership of a very lucrative bridge that connects Manhattan to Brooklyn?

[tazman]

I think it was directed at me.

I don't doubt that you had a difficult time removing the debris from a magnum chamber after shooting 38 Spl. cartridges.

I do think the issue is rare.

It only really happened the one time. Undoubtedly a special set of circumstances.
400 rounds in one afternoon. I was using a lube that I hadn't used before and no longer use because of this. Full power loads of Bullseye.
The build up was heavy enough that it completely filled the space between the 38 special case and the front of the 357 chamber. The stuff was hard. It didn't want to dissolve and wouldn't soften with anything I had. I wore out three brass brushes working by hand without getting significant portions of it out. I ended up using a small wire brush on my cordless drill to get the most of it out. The smaller bits finally softened with a heavy dose of Hoppes left overnight. Even those smaller bits were enough that I couldn't insert a magnum case all the way in until they were cleaned out.
Shortly after that I switched lubes and haven't had that kind of problem since. What dirt there is now cleans out easily.
I think my Lyman 45 still has the last of that bad lube in it. I will need to clean it out before I can feel safe using it again. I still have some boolits with that lube loaded up. If I only shoot a few at a time it doesn't become that bad. Also I can shoot them in my 38 special which I didn't have at the time and avoid the problem all together.

[Windwalker 45acp]

I've only just started, within the past year, casting and shooting .38spcl/.357m and I almost exclusively shoot .38spcl cases in a Smith M28-2. I've never, ever had crud built up and I shoot Unique.
Having said that, I don't discount tazman's claim at all.... when you get to a certain age you will have experienced a lifetime of weird and unexplainable things.

I've learned to just shrug it off, especially if it isn't repeatable.

[Harry O]

1) DO NOT LOAD .357 LOADS IN .38 CASES. SOONER OR LATER ONE OF THEM WILL FIND ITS WAY INTO A .38 SPECIAL CYLINDER.

3) I have never owned a .38 Special revolver. I have owned around 30 - .357 Magnum revolvers. I currently own 2 Rugers and 4 Smiths. I own around 200 .357 Magnum cases and upward of 5,000 .38 special cases. I load .357s in batches of 50 and .38s in batches of 300.



The first statement bears repeating.

As far as the second statement, you really owe it to your self to get a S&W K-38 Masterpiece or a Combat Masterpiece and try it. A .38 Special cartridge is more accurate in a .38 Special revolver than it is in a .357 Magnum revolver. From my experience, sometimes it is a lot more accurate. I shoot .38 Special cartridges in .38 Special revolvers (almost all are the K-38 and Model 15). I shoot .357 Magnum cartridges in .357 Magnum revolvers (there are an assortment of them -- S&W, Colt & Ruger). It works out well for me that way.

[salvadore]

I may have said this before, but if you are unable to keep your high pressure .38s separate from your saami spec .38, then you shouldn't load .38 cases to higher pressures. I don't have that problem.

[tazman]

I am quite able to keep my high pressure loads separate from the standard loads.
My only issue is, I am old enough now that some of my ammo may outlive me. Who knows whether the info I put with the loads will remain with the specific containers and loads after I pass on.
My spouse and children have no idea what the notes might mean and may end up mixing things up. I would much prefer not to be haunted by some one who blew up a gun because they used a load of mine in the wrong gun.
I no longer load 38 special cases with magnum loads for that reason. I only have about a box of heavy +P loads(not full magnum but would be +P+ these days) to burn before I don't have to worry about it any longer.

[Windwalker 45acp]

you could leave them to me in your Will, Tazman! :D

On a serious note, i've thought about the same thing as to +p+ ammo I had made and whether or not my wife and kids would even understand the difference and with what firearms they need to be used with.

Telling them before really won't help either. I recall having many discussions with my own father of what this and that was for and you just cannot recall every last little detail or sometimes appreciate the sometimes subtle difference.

I dunno, the only thing I have come up with is precise, written instructions.

[denul]

I purchased a very nice Smith and Wesson Model 66 several years ago from a dealer who told me its former owner only shot 38 special wadcutters in regular competition, and was sure that there had been several tens of thousands tired. He also stated that he never knew the man to have purchased or used any 357 ammunition. None of the charging holes with accept any 357s,38s were fine. I did not mind the clean up at all, because I got a good price on the revolver, and I found that I could remove this with the drill press and bronze bristle like mentioned in the above post. It is fine now, with 38s or 357, & I use both and don't seem to have much issues with build up as I found it. I'm not shooting anywhere nearly as much as the previous owner.

[rockshooter]

I've found that an M-14 chamber brush, the one with a ratchet, works great for cleaning .357 chambers. The brass bristles are short and stiff and turning the ratchet makes fast work of the job. I must admit that I have never had any particular problem shooting .38s and .357 interchangeably but like to have clean chambers.
Loren

[Pooch]

I once had a "crud ring" in my 357 that was so hard it took almost 3 hours cleaning time to get it out. I shot nearly 400 rounds through the gun, all 38 special, one afternoon and cleaned the gun the next day. That ring was so hard it was almost impossible to remove and didn't want to dissolve for some reason. It had built up solid in the front of the chamber and looked as if it had shortened the chamber to 38 special length.
I have since changed boolit lubes and no longer have that any difficulty getting the ring out.

What type of lube were you using??

[rfd]

i have a ruger gp-100 6" and load for both 38spl and 357mag, with 90% of the time using 38spl rounds and target loads of bullseye under my cast 150 grain 1:20 alloy bullets that are gato feo lubed. never had any cylinder crud build up. guess it's all a matter of load, alloy and lube, with firing 38spl in a 357mag cylinder.

http://i.imgur.com/XEjdWJa.jpg

[tazman]

I've found that an M-14 chamber brush, the one with a ratchet, works great for cleaning .357 chambers. The brass bristles are short and stiff and turning the ratchet makes fast work of the job. I must admit that I have never had any particular problem shooting .38s and .357 interchangeably but like to have clean chambers.
Loren

That sounds like a good way to clean the chambers. I think I will try to find one of those in case it ever happens again.

Pooch--- I was using a lube I purchased off eBay. It was listed as Tac1 and was a green color. I have since switched to White Label X-lox and have had no issues since.

[Scharfschuetze]

I've found that an M-14 chamber brush, the one with a ratchet, works great for cleaning .357 chambers.

Here is an M1 chamber brush.

[Thin Man]

+1 on Tazman's experience. Many years ago I was a LEO/instructor/armorer at an agency where we loaded our own 38 WC's for training and carried Model 10 revolvers. Later we upgraded to Model 66 revolvers but issued 38 Spl. ammo for duty and WC ammo for training. The occasional 357 round found it's way toward, but not into the chambers of these 66's. The problem was the crud ring in the front of the chambers from shorter rounds being fired in longer chambers. Why was the ring there? Could have been the bullet lube, bullet diameter, bullet alloy composition, or whatever, but it was there. Like many others I tried the Lewis lead remover, oversize bore brushes on drills, solvents and other witchcraft. These were marginally successful. Then I learned about Brownell's CHAMBER BRUSHES, product 084-455-137. These brushes are larger diameter than a bore brush and are stainless steel. One must have a cleaning rod with a fixed (non-rotating) handle. Install the brush on the rod and start the brush into the chamber while turning the rod handle (brush must rotate while inserting). Continue to push the brush forward while turning the rod until the brush protrudes out the front of the chamber. Now rotate the brush ten (10) complete revolutions and withdraw it from the chamber (while still turning it). This usually gets all the crud out, second applications may be required for really serious junk in the chambers. This is the most effective chamber cleaning system I have found so far. Have never found any chamber damaged by the SS bristles, only clean. One caution - do NOT try to pass this brush down the bore!! The diameter is so large the brush will be extremely resistant to travel the distance from muzzle to frame window, and any attempt to withdraw the brush to the rear before it clears the barrel will be unsuccessful. Then you will have to move it to the frame window and remove it from the cleaning rod in order to remove the rod. You will do this only one time and remember it for ever (as I have from 40 years ago!). Yes, I still keep a supply of these for customers' firearms that require complete chamber cleaning (yes, the crud ring still appears occasionally), and use them on my own revolvers without fear of leaving any crud in the chambers. They work, and very well, better than anything else I have found to date. They are available in either 3 or 12 items in a pack from Brownell's.

[rfd]

i think i would wanna avoid scrubbing a cylinder, or any gun metal, with a s/s brush at all costs. if ringing the cylinder due to firing 38spl rounds became, or was an issue, it'd rather load reduced 357mag rounds. imho.

[apen]

I'm with you there rfd

[tazman]

i think i would wanna avoid scrubbing a cylinder, or any gun metal, with a s/s brush at all costs. if ringing the cylinder due to firing 38spl rounds became, or was an issue, it'd rather load reduced 357mag rounds. imho.

I agree with that with 2 notes.
1-- 38 special brass is more readily available and much cheaper than 357 brass.
2-- I now own revolvers chambered for 38 special and shoot all my 38 specials in those guns eliminating the problem altogether.
I can certainly understand some one who cannot afford more than one gun needing to shoot what they have with whatever they can load most cheaply. I have been in that position myself. If that is the case, a good cleaning system will be necessary if this problem arises. Been there, done that.

[sniper]

As usual, I'm late to this thread, but in another lifetime, for hundreds of rounds in IPSC competition, 5.5 gr. Unique did just fine.:grin: I cast RCBS 150 gr. .38/357 boolitz out of a mixture I fondly hoped was somewhere in the neighborhood of Lyman #2 alloy, cast on a Coleman camp stove, lubed in Lee's little flat pan, with some red goo I think was included. Used the cake cutter and push-thru sizer... .358, iirc. .357 brass. I never needed another load! 860 fps from my 4" barrel, with no leading! Following that, I used commercial "hard cast 158 gr SWC, including Oregon Trail, which developed leading. :(

Looking over what I have now...there are some of the commercial cast 158 grainers, which I tumble lubed with Lee lube, about 500 Hornady swaged SWC, with whatever lube they use, several hundred RCBS 38-150 gr and 158 gr SWCGCs, which I have also tumble lubed. They kinda sat for a couple of years till a cataract problem got sorted out, so NOW all I have to do is see how they shoot with the lube on them, and experiment with 5.0-6.5 Unique and see how they shoot. I wish the weather would warm up, so I can get to the range!:-D

[Lloyd Smale]

never had a big problem with 38s in a 357 but then I haven't owned many 357s and when I do shoot them I about exclusively use 357 brass.. I have seen it in 44mags when shooting 44 specials and especially in my 475s shooting 480s. Probably due the fact that chamber tolarances in a custom gun are tighter then in a production gun. Id about bet most of the guys here claiming it doesn't happen are the type that every day when they get home from the range they thoroughly clean there guns. Mine usually get a spray down if that and get a good cleaning about once or twice a year depending on how many thousands of rounds have been shot in them. Shoot a 1000 38s in a 357 and I don't care what kind of lube you are using or even if its cast bullets and if 357s still chamber you have a gun that has loose chamber dimentions. Me, if I'm shooting a 357 gun anymore I use 357 brass and the same goes for 44s, 475s or anything else. If I'm out shooting my 357s and I run some 38s through it I know that when I get home ive got work to do.

[Mossy Oak]

In my .38 loads I've been using TiteGroup and it seems to work very well. My Uberti likes a 147gr round nose and 2.7-3.0 grains.

Joe

[Boogieman]

Lyman #358156gc bullets have 2 crimp grooves to allow loading low end 357 loads in 38spl. cases .Skeeter's 13.5 of 2400 was one. If you have a swc mold with a gas check it is NOT a Keith bullet .Elmer did not like gc bullets. He claimed they raised pressures

[ghh3rd]

Reviving this old thread to say that a bronze brush with strands of Big 45 Frontier Metal Cleaner wrapped around it makes the crud ring disappear. It's like a chore boy pad on steroids -- has sharp edges and works wonders on lead and crud buildup, but won't even scratch bluing.