Help me cast for a model 29 with .4330 throats

[stillhere]

I have a model 29-3 that I have always shot jacketed bullets out of, with satisfactory results. But now I'm casting.

I slugged the throats and got .4330 on all six. That seems oversize; my 629 slugs at .4285. But, the bore is good, coming it at .429. Shooting lube sized .430 bullets through .433 throats, not surprisingly, made for some bad leading.

I'm wondering if perhaps I would better off looking for a cylinder with tighter throats, or if I can compensate by sizing the the bullets out of my .434 mold to .433?

My Accurate Mold typically drops bullets in the .432-.434 range so I'm thinking with a custom made SAECO sizing die cut to .433, I might be able to make this work.

Replacing the cylinder seems like a longshot. The gun is nickel dash 3. Haven't seen any of those cylinders for sale.



Thoughts?

[williamwaco]

Try shooting them as cast. ( If they will chamber. )

What lube?

[stillhere]

Don't really like pan-lubing but that's not a bad idea.
My lube is Sta-lube sl3330 moly graph/beeswax/castor oil in approximate proportions of 40%/40%/20%.

[376Steyr]

I'd start with trying some as-cast .434 to make sure they will chamber, pan-lube a few and shoot them to see if that cures the problem, then going with a custom sizing die. Changing out the cylinder should be a last resort.

What alloy and powder charge are you using? A mis-match there could be contributing to your problems.

[stillhere]

I'd start with trying some as-cast .434 to make sure they will chamber, pan-lube a few and shoot them to see if that cures the problem, then going with a custom sizing die. Changing out the cylinder should be a last resort.

What alloy and powder charge are you using? A mis-match there could be contributing to your problems.

Alloy is cww with some extra tin. Not sure which load I'll try but the first batch was 12.5 gr 800x. Might try the same thing just to compare like with like and go from there. THat's pretty stout load.

[Hickok]

I have a model 29-3 that I have always shot jacketed bullets out of, with satisfactory results. But now I'm casting.

I slugged the throats and got .4330 on all six. That seems oversize; my 629 slugs at .4285. But, the bore is good, coming it at .429. Shooting lube sized .430 bullets through .433 throats, not surprisingly, made for some bad leading.

I'm wondering if perhaps I would better off looking for a cylinder with tighter throats, or if I can compensate by sizing the the bullets out of my .434 mold to .433?

My Accurate Mold typically drops bullets in the .432-.434 range so I'm thinking with a custom made SAECO sizing die cut to .433, I might be able to make this work.

Replacing the cylinder seems like a longshot. The gun is nickel dash 3. Haven't seen any of those cylinders for sale.



Thoughts?I have an older Model 29 and it has the same cylinder throats as yours. I have a Lyman #429421 mold that I honed out to .433" and it works fine. A .433" boolit loaded into a .44 mag case fits fine in all the chambers on my Model 29.

.4333 cylinder throats is normal for older Model 29's and yes .4285" cylinder throats are the norm for some of the newer Model 629's. I just had Doug hone out my Model 629 throats to .4315". He does outstanding work.

[Larry Gibson]

Try it with a known lube also such as a good NRA 50/50 lube or BAC. I've shot lots of COWW + tin alloyed bullets sized .430 through .433 throats into .429 barrels with no appreciable leading.

Larry Gibson

[williamwaco]

I certainly would not consider changing the cylinder.

You can sell it and buy another 29 for considerably less money.

[JeffinNZ]

Well the good news is that they are all the same. That's the main thing. Have you read Mr Fryxell's material on www.lasc.us

[skeettx]

Have a go at this one, less than a day left, and so far up to $33.00
Good luck
Mike

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Smith-Wesson-Model-29-44-Magnum-Cylinder-/252199621619?hash=item3ab844d3f3:g:qo4AAOSwxN5WYoY A


(http://www.ebay.com/itm/Smith-Wesson-Model-29-44-Magnum-Cylinder-/252199621619?hash=item3ab844d3f3:g:qo4AAOSwxN5WYoY A)

[stillhere]

Have a go at this one, less than a day left, and so far up to $33.00
Good luck
Mike

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Smith-Wesson-Model-29-44-Magnum-Cylinder-/252199621619?hash=item3ab844d3f3:g:qo4AAOSwxN5WYoY A


(http://www.ebay.com/itm/Smith-Wesson-Model-29-44-Magnum-Cylinder-/252199621619?hash=item3ab844d3f3:g:qo4AAOSwxN5WYoY A)
Wow; thanks. That sucker's gonna jump, though.

Jeff- Yup; I follow Glen Fryxell's writings. That's where I got my lube recipe and advice on fluxing with sawdust.

Larry Gibson - I've had excellent success with this lube in other guns. I've also tried a lube similar to 50/50 in another gun that was giving me trouble with leading. No change. But, I'll hunt some down and give it a whirl with this gun.

Hickok- what are your bullets sized to for the 629 you had reamed by Doug? I currently have a 629 back at the factory. They say it's in spec. I say it leads like a bastard. I had considered opening up the .4285 throats like you did but I didn't want to void the warranty so instead I relayed this particular solution to them in hopes that they would at least consider doing it. If not, and I can't get the leading under control, then I suppose a trip to Doug is in order.

[dubber123]

Size to as close to cylinder throats as you can get. Don't worry about the bore. I have an older 629 with large throats, and a 624 with the same issue. Boolits that fit the throat dramatically reduced group size for me.

[stillhere]

I just made 50 rounds of 12.5 gr 800x, using pan-lubed, as cast boolits. I'll follow up after shooting.

[Hickok]

Wow; thanks. That sucker's gonna jump, though.

Jeff- Yup; I follow Glen Fryxell's writings. That's where I got my lube recipe and advice on fluxing with sawdust.

Larry Gibson - I've had excellent success with this lube in other guns. I've also tried a lube similar to 50/50 in another gun that was giving me trouble with leading. No change. But, I'll hunt some down and give it a whirl with this gun.

Hickok- what are your bullets sized to for the 629 you had reamed by Doug? I currently have a 629 back at the factory. They say it's in spec. I say it leads like a bastard. I had considered opening up the .4285 throats like you did but I didn't want to void the warranty so instead I relayed this particular solution to them in hopes that they would at least consider doing it. If not, and I can't get the leading under control, then I suppose a trip to Doug is in order.Doug honed my Model 629 cylinder throats to .4315" so I could use boolits sized to .431". I have a Ruger Super BlackHawk that has cylinder throats of .4315" and my Win. 94 in .44 mag has .4312" groove diameter, now I size .431 for all of them. Doug's work is A+. Send him a pm.

[Artful]

Have you thought about powder coating?

[stillhere]

Doug honed my Model 629 cylinder throats to .4315" so I could use boolits sized to .431". I have a Ruger Super BlackHawk that has cylinder throats of .4315" and my Win. 94 in .44 mag has .4312" groove diameter, now I size .431 for all of them. Doug's work is A+. Send him a pm.

Only problem is that my 629 is back at the factory. I've indicated to them that I only shoot cast boolits and that "my gunsmith" has suggested that .4285 may be too small for cast. Whether or not they will take any action remains to be seen. Also, I have concerns about voiding warranty by having non approved work done. But, the temptation to have Doug open the throats a bit is pretty strong at this point.
I guess I'll have to wait to see what Smith does (or doesn't) do, and then go from there.

[rintinglen]

A warranty that doesn't fix what's wrong is scarcely worth the paper it's written on, I'd have the cylinder of my 629 fixed to shoot what I want...

I'd get a .433 sizer, add a bit of tin to my melt, and I'd have boolits that would work just fine in my nickeled 29. try a couple to make sure the fit is ok, and it it is, well all's right with the world.

[stillhere]

A warranty that doesn't fix what's wrong is scarcely worth the paper it's written on, I'd have the cylinder of my 629 fixed to shoot what I want...

I'd get a .433 sizer, add a bit of tin to my melt, and I'd have boolits that would work just fine in my nickeled 29. try a couple to make sure the fit is ok, and it it is, well all's right with the world.

Regarding my 629, if I knew for a fact what the problem is and what it would take to make it shoot well, I would have just had it done outside the factory, on my own dime. But I do not know what exactly is the problem. And since the gun is under warranty, I am willing to give them the opportunity to make it right. At least for now.

As for the 29 with .433 throats, I learned that SAECO does not offer, nor do they custom make, a .433 lubrisizer die. They suggested a guy named Stephen Francis as someone who might be able to customize a die for me but I've not heard back from him.

[Hickok]

Get in touch with Buckshot, a member/ moderator here. He makes custom sizers Lyman/ RCBS lube sizers and also makes the Lee-type push through sizers. He does custom sizers for the price charged by the big companies.

[stillhere]

Get in touch with Buckshot, a member/ moderator here. He makes custom sizers Lyman/ RCBS lube sizers and also makes the Lee-type push through sizers. He does custom sizers for the price charged by the big companies.

Thanks, I'll remember that. Earlier this morning I saw that Buffalo Arms makes and sells custom SAECO dies so I picked up a .432. I wanted a .433 but they were out. I'll try Buckshot if I need another one.

[rockrat]

I have a Colt SAA NF in 44 special. Has .433 throats and a .428" barrel. Luckily, my 429421 casts WW @.433", so I tried .430', .431" and finally .433". Nice to watch the groups shrink as the boolits got closer to throat size. .433"group was about half the size of the .430" (50ft indoor).

[Mal Paso]

.001"-.002" over groove is enough to get a good gas seal at 44 Mag pressures. I would not chase .433" throats. Too much compression distorts the bullet.

A .429" bullet is already larger than a .429" groove barrel. The bore on a 44 mag is .010"- .012" smaller than the groove and the metal displaced by the lands almost seals the bore. There's elastic and plastic deformation gobbledygook but bottom line .001" over groove seems to be the magic number for 44 mag and the alloy we use.

In 44 Mag a good gas seal raises pressure improving the combustion of the powder in addition to cutting leading and not wasting some of the powder's energy.

Check out Lyman's 4th Cast Bullet Handbook where they sized all 44 Mag bullets .429" against Any Other Manual. Their Charges are Higher, Pressures and Velocities Lower. and Don't use 4th edition loads for .430" bullets.

[Motor]

Well the good news is that they are all the same. That's the main thing. Have you read Mr Fryxell's material on www.lasc.us

Yeah the good news actually great news is they are larger than the bore. This is not always the case. When they are smaller it creates lots of problems for shooting cast.

Motor

[skeettx]

Well that cylinder sold for

$76.01

and shipping, not bad for a cylinder and all the fixins

[murf205]

Get in touch with Buckshot, a member/ moderator here. He makes custom sizers Lyman/ RCBS lube sizers and also makes the Lee-type push through sizers. He does custom sizers for the price charged by the big companies.

And, I might add they are a work of art. He just made one for me and I LAUVE it:bigsmyl2: A powder coated .463 boolit goes through it to .459 sooooo smooth you can barely feel it.
Murf205

[stillhere]

.001"-.002" over groove is enough to get a good gas seal at 44 Mag pressures. I would not chase .433" throats. Too much compression distorts the bullet.

A .429" bullet is already larger than a .429" groove barrel. The bore on a 44 mag is .010"- .012" smaller than the groove and the metal displaced by the lands almost seals the bore. There's elastic and plastic deformation gobbledygook but bottom line .001" over groove seems to be the magic number for 44 mag and the alloy we use.

In 44 Mag a good gas seal raises pressure improving the combustion of the powder in addition to cutting leading and not wasting some of the powder's energy.

Check out Lyman's 4th Cast Bullet Handbook where they sized all 44 Mag bullets .429" against Any Other Manual. Their Charges are Higher, Pressures and Velocities Lower. and Don't use 4th edition loads for .430" bullets.

Mal, it sounds like what you're saying would account for the leading problem with my other N frame. I have a 629 PC gun that is back at Smith after complaints of unrepentant leading. The throats were slugging at what apparently is the new spec: .4285. My bullets are sized to .430. The bore is at .429. Should I be sizing them to .429?

[mtgrs737]

Mal, it sounds like what you're saying would account for the leading problem with my other N frame. I have a 629 PC gun that is back at Smith after complaints of unrepentant leading. The throats were slugging at what apparently is the new spec: .4285. My bullets are sized to .430. The bore is at .429. Should I be sizing them to .429?


I don't know why but it seems that stainless steel guns often have undersized throats. It may be due to the SS wearing tools (reamers) much quicker and the factory re-sharpening the reamers and making them undersized. Anyway I have had to have two Smith's and a Ruger reamed to open up the throats so that they would shoot cast well. I had an older 29 that had throats that measured .434" that shot .432" dia. boolits just fine. I feel that the closer you can size a bullet to the dia. of the cylinder throats the better off you will be as long as it chambers OK.

[Mal Paso]

Mal, it sounds like what you're saying would account for the leading problem with my other N frame. I have a 629 PC gun that is back at Smith after complaints of unrepentant leading. The throats were slugging at what apparently is the new spec: .4285. My bullets are sized to .430. The bore is at .429. Should I be sizing them to .429?

I shot .430" bullets through .4285" throats before I reamed them. Some of the throat squeeze is elastic and will spring back. I water drop all super sonic rounds.

I started casting with a Lyman 429421 that struggled to make .430" on the base band and the front band was .0025" smaller. Switching to the NOE 429421 sized .430"+ increased bullet speed 90 fps. Same Weight, Better Seal. and that was through .4285" throats.

I finally bought the Manson Reamer at .4313" with all the pilots. (Cylindersmith was ending and Doug Guy hadn't arrived) That for me is the sweet spot.


I don't know why but it seems that stainless steel guns often have undersized throats. It may be due to the SS wearing tools (reamers) much quicker and the factory re-sharpening the reamers and making them undersized. Anyway I have had to have two Smith's and a Ruger reamed to open up the throats so that they would shoot cast well. I had an older 29 that had throats that measured .434" that shot .432" dia. boolits just fine. I feel that the closer you can size a bullet to the dia. of the cylinder throats the better off you will be as long as it chambers OK.

My Stainless Redhawk is less than 10 years old and has .4325" throats. My 629 is older and had .4285" throats. S&W has said this is for jacketed ammo performance. You know it is Forbidden by S&W and Ruger to use Any Non-Factory Ammunition especially Handloads. ;)

For 44 Mag .001" over groove in most cases is enough. For me .431" covers my .430" groove Anaconda as well as a Redhawk with .4325" throats.

Squeezing a cast boolit into a bore distorts it and beyond a point it can get asymmetrical. It's nice if the boolit fits the throat, more important the throats don't get in the way, but a good gas seal in the bore is #1 and more is not necessarily better.