Random jacket forming idea from brass

[guywitha3006]

This is one of those random Friday thoughts...

To make jacket from 223 brass, rather than just sizing it down to .30 cal or whatever size was needed, what if you cut the case head off and then used a die set up similar to making jackets from copper tubing? My thoughts are since you would be eliminating the case head the jacket could in theory be more accurate since it would fairly uniform in thickness and not light in the base end. you also wouldn't have the cratered primer being an issue.

It would also be cheaper (used brass over copper).. always a plus for general range bullets. Personally I would use them as an alternative to 200-240 grain heavy weight subsonics, but do not see why they couldn't be used in lighter faster subsonic and rifle brass seems fairly thick compared to pistol brass.

This is all speculation as I do not have the copper tubing jacket maker... or .30 caliber dies for that matter yet (.30 caliber are dies currently on order).

Any downsides to my thinking or maybe positives I missed? Some day it seems like it would be a good project. Seemed like a good topic for a cold December Friday morning.

[just bill]

This is one of those random Friday thoughts...

To make jacket from 223 brass, rather than just sizing it down to .30 cal or whatever size was needed, what if you cut the case head off and then used a die set up similar to making jackets from copper tubing? My thoughts are since you would be eliminating the case head the jacket could in theory be more accurate since it would fairly uniform in thickness and not light in the base end. you also wouldn't have the cratered primer being an issue.

It would also be cheaper (used brass over copper).. always a plus for general range bullets. Personally I would use them as an alternative to 200-240 grain heavy weight subsonics, but do not see why they couldn't be used in lighter faster subsonic and rifle brass seems fairly thick compared to pistol brass.

This is all speculation as I do not have the copper tubing jacket maker... or .30 caliber dies for that matter yet (.30 caliber are dies currently on order).

Any downsides to my thinking or maybe positives I missed? Some day it seems like it would be a good project. Seemed like a good topic for a cold December Friday morning.
This is one of those deja vous moments. I've been working on copper tubing jacket dies, mostly in the mental design and processing stage.
As I was working on some 300 bo cases and thought about .357 and .308 from the shoulder side of .223 blanks and or other brass, but for .308 it may be too nose heavy. Gonna cut some brass and see how the wall thickness works out.
Bill

[BT Sniper]

I have thought a lot about doing exactly as was said in post #1, to some degree I already have. I have made 358 bullets from the top half of the scrap 223 brass and have often thought it would work well for a long heavy 338 or 308 cal jacket. Being that the 223 brass can be sized down while in a shell holder makes it an attractive alternative to sizing down the entire case and a lot easier too.


Here is a quick thread to the simple 358 bullets made from the top half of the 223, has some good pics in it.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?185406-358-rifle-bullet-swage-dies

Incorporating the same technique for a longer 338 or 308 should also be possible, possibly even more accurate too then using the back half of the jacket? Would be interesting to have a jacket that tapers in thickness from front to back, would that be a delayed expansion then an explosion?

I just processed a few thousand blank 223s for use as 338 and 30 cal jackets, cut them off right at the shoulder/body junction. When I get around to it I'll have to experiment with cutting the back half off instead.

Anything is possible and when it comes to resizing brass all it takes is a good anneal and good leverage.

Good shooting and swage on!

BT

[guywitha3006]

I'd be thrilled if you guys shared your findings...I don't have the skills or equipment to make dies just for cuiositys sake... Some day I'll buy a lathe for thoughts like this. I l0be random thought projects helps make Fridays go quicker!

[Wolftracker]

I've done this with some degree of success and also failure. It works great to cut the necks off of 308, 30-06, 243 cases (anything based on the 30-06) and cut the case to the desired length to make .45 cal. jackets using the angled shoulder end for the base. I tried this with 223 brass to make .338's for a Win. Mag. Not so good! They were sideways within feet of leaving the barrel. Too much power in a 338 Win. Mag. for this, I think. It works to leave the cartridge base on though. The 45 version works well in a 45 ACP but I can't speak for more powerful cartridges.

[just bill]

If I have this understood correctly, I take the tapered end of an annealed .223, trimmed about .5" from the top of the casing and put a core in it and put in the bottom flattening die, that should make the jacket and core ready for the point forming die, right?.

[BT Sniper]

I tried this with 223 brass to make .338's for a Win. Mag. Not so good! They were sideways within feet of leaving the barrel. Too much power in a 338 Win. Mag. for this, I think. It works to leave the cartridge base on though. The 45 version works well in a 45 ACP but I can't speak for more powerful cartridges.

How heavy of bullet did you make for the 338? usually a bullet tumbling is a result of barrel twist and bullet length issues rather then what was used for the bullet jacket.

I'm sure we could get them to shoot as accurate as commercial bullets.

BT

[guywitha3006]

BT... if at some point in the future I have the funds to scratch this curiosity itch would the cost be the same as your jackets from copper tubing die set? I am guessing you would just base it off of the external dimensions of a .223 case, or whatever case was used instead of a copper pipe?

[BT Sniper]

If it was me I would simply make a simple insert for the core seat die and maybe modify a base punch to close the end and seat the core all at the same time.

Do to the reverse taper you would have in the jacket by cutting off the head and closing up the neck of the 223 it might be a bit of a challenge to form a jacket like we do with copper tubing.

lets see..... if it where me...... I would first size the 223 in a 17-223 FL reloading die to get the neck as small as possible then size down the body of the case in a sizing/draw die, then cut off head at desired length, seat core while at same time closing up the rest of the neck and form in point form die... done.

Only additional cost, off the top of my head might be a custom insert for the core seat die and maybe an additional core seat base punch. Far less cost then a copper tubing form die.

Brian

[guywitha3006]

BT good to know. If curiosity gets the best of you post some pictures and let us know how it works out. Unfortunately this one is a WAY back burner project idea(no one told me how much a 4 month old cuts into the recreational budget), I want to get all the basic caliber dies I shoot and used to using them with simple jackets before I over complicate things. With all the ideas floating around in my head it would probably be easier to find a lathe and learn how to run it... but that would cut even further into my shooting and reloading time/budget.

[BT Sniper]

I sent off a 375-335 draw die to Nitride processing for my personal use. I expect to be shooting some heavy 338s from my 338 Edge this spring. I'll be drawing down the whole case including the head to make the jacket, I cut it at the junction of the shoulder and body of the case. When I get around to making some of these bullets I'll try making a few with the "backwards" 223 rem jacketed bullets and keep you all posted. My guess is that a jacket made like this will be even more accurate then ones made from the entire case. That was what I experienced with 44 cal bullets made from the top of a cut off 30-06 case I would use to make my 44AMP brass with.

Take care of that new little one. Good shooting and swage on!


BT

[mckenziedrums]

Ha! I'm trying to get into swaging with a 2 year old... Just wait til that little one is mobile, whole different ball game there ;)

[guywitha3006]

Bt I was thinking it would be more consistent so I was hoping that would translate to more accurate. I love this site... One random thought on a Friday afternoon and now I have others sharing in my madness.

On a side note my little guy is cutting into my productivity again... Taking a snooze on my lap. MKZdrums, I can't wait until he a little more mobile. It is going to be a fun Christmas next year!

[Faret]

Right there with you guys! My youngest at 1.5 years keeps me on my feet and away from stuff I want to be doing!

[Wolftracker]

If I remember correctly, they were 200 grains. I cut the necks off of 223 cases and used the tapered shoulder as the base, annealed ran them through a 338 and seated a core flattened the base that way, rather than just flattening the base the usual way because the base flattening punch for my set didn't fit right. They were 6 Ogive and looked pretty good. I'll have to look through my stuff and see if I still have some. The rifle was a TC Pro Hunter that I no longer have. There is probably something I did incorrectly, possibly not a good enough anneal or it would have worked better with a flattening punch that fit. At the time, I had a jacket making set from Corbin and corresponding Jacket reducing dies to get down to 338. 223 brass is better suited to be used for 375 jackets, by the way. I found it to be more feasible to leave the case head on, but, like I said, may have done something incorrectly at the time and went back to regular copper tubing. Hope that clarifies.

[just bill]

Been thinking about the .308 from .223 cases. The first consideration is trim length. With this has any one reduced the cases to .308. How many draws is that? My guess would be 3.
I measured the .223 case with out the base to be 1.4" or so. When we reduce we get a longer case that needs to be trimmed, to what length. I was using 1.36" cases but alas they are no more, so what is the final thickness? All I can do is reduce the.223 case to .356 or .357. That's all the reducing dies I have. Beyond that I'm lost till I can get the lathe up and running. The garage is to cold. This is my train of thought. Am I headed right ?
Bill

[runfiverun]

start from your beginning thickness and draw the case down and measure again.
from this to that should allow you to predict the thickness at that same rate.
your not losing anything your just making it longer and thinner.
the rate should be predictable to within .001 or so with what you have now.

[midnight]

I made a series of draw dies to draw 223 brass down to .302 for use as 30 cal jackets. The dies are .355, .335, .317, and .302. I made a brass slider on top of a spring that is a close fit on the shaft of the punch to hold the case square to the die. I cut the neck and shoulder off the 223 case and starting wall thickness was .022 at the mouth and .028 about one inch down. The finished jacket was about 1.40 long, .016 at mouth and .022 one inch down. They can be trimmed to the length needed. If I were to do it over again I would make about a 3/8 in. parallel section at the entrance to the die before tapering to the ring that sizes the jacket. I could probably dispense with the slider to keep the jacket square.

Bob

[just bill]

been cutting and planning the use of trimming .223 for .375. Not a real problem trimming with the BT or Grumpa set up with RCBS Pro trimmers, however the problem I'm encountering is cutting the bases to trimming off the bases to make 1.40 +/- long tubing.
Bill