22 Mag to 218 Bee?

[oldred]

I am toying with re-chambering my 22 Mag "Mini-High Wall" to 218 Bee, this rifle is overbuilt and strength should not be an issue however accurately doing the chamber may be? As much as I love the 22 Mag acquiring ammo has just become too much of an issue and I remember the 218 Bee I had years ago, just a better choice all 'round and I find myself wishing I had of chosen that cartridge in the first place.

My concern is guiding the reamer into the existing chamber, setting the barrel back is not an option due to both the fact that is is a "quick-change" design and already an almost too short 19 1/2" as it is.

Thoughts on this?

[pietro]

.


Because the strength of it might very well be an issue, I would have a pro give a hard look at the "quick-change" feature of your conversion candidate.

Also, besides the rechambering issue, switching a rimfire HiWall to centerfire is a game-changer - both money-wise (money pit) & work-wise.

I would advise selling it, and buying whatever else floats your boat.


.

[oldred]

Well I scratch built this rifle so the conversion would be simple enough but I was just looking at doing the re-chamber accurately without setting back the barrel. I have a lathe and the reamer but just inserting the reamer into the existing chamber I see a lot of room for some serious misalignment before the pilot becomes supported and I was wondering about the way to correctly get around this problem?


The breech block is a slightly different design than a standard High Wall and the conversion to center fire would only involve a new firing pin and retainer.

[Blue2]

The Bee has some taper to it. Just use a stub drill to short drill out the 22 mag chamber so that the Bee reamer will enter guided by the pilot. Use a drill of just under the shoulder width of the Bee reamer. Just drill to a depth so that the pilot will engage and not be interferred with by the old 22 mag chamber. Repositioning the firing pin hole will probably take more effort.

[oldred]

The Bee has some taper to it. Just use a stub drill to short drill out the 22 mag chamber so that the Bee reamer will enter guided by the pilot. Use a drill of just under the shoulder width of the Bee reamer. Just drill to a depth so that the pilot will engage and not be interferred with by the old 22 mag chamber. Repositioning the firing pin hole will probably take more effort.


Ok that makes sense, use a drill just large enough to allow the reamer to enter the chamber far enough for the pilot to become supported, that taper then should allow for 100% clean up. I had been tossing around the idea of making a D-bit reamer for an undersize rougher before using the PTG reamer but I like that drill bit idea better, sure would be quicker and easier!

[Baja_Traveler]

Hope you saved your old 218 Bee brass - scarce as hens teeth these days. I've been scouring the net looking for it for some time now, ever since I picked up a nice example of a Marlin 1894CL in 218. Sure, you can neck down 32-20, but it will come out short.

That said - I sure to love the .218!

[country gent]

Another way to go would be set the barrel up and indicate both ends in to zero, then set compound to correct angle for bee case and with a small boring bar rough bore the chamber body close to size. A drill may follow existing hole if its noyt dead true but the light bore job will clean and true it up to dead center. Only take light passes and feed slow and easy. .005 should be doable and true or keep tru the chamber to the bore. The Bee is a fun round with alot of history behind it. What twist is in the barrel? A bee with 45 or 50 grn cast bullets could be more fun than a person should have

[oldred]

What twist is in the barrel?

1-14 twist Green Mountain barrel blank sold specifically for the 22 Mag, I wasn't sure if the twist would be suitable for the Bee but I figured I could find a bullet/load it likes -hopefully anyway.




Hope you saved your old 218 Bee brass - scarce as hens teeth these days. I've been scouring the net looking for it for some time now, ever since I picked up a nice example of a Marlin 1894CL in 218. Sure, you can neck down 32-20, but it will come out short.

That said - I sure to love the .218!


Yes I have brass saved from years ago, running across that empty brass and a few loaded rounds was my inspiration for wanting another rifle chambered in this round! Midway has brass OCCASIONALLY but as of right now it's temporarily unavailable and about 50 cents each when they do have it. Also it looks as if loaded ammo averages about $1.50 each and even it is out-of-stock.

[country gent]

218 bee brass only gets ran 1 or 2 times a year if that often ( its not a real high demand) and you need to be on the waiting ist ready to go when they run it.The distributers call in thier orders and when there is enough quainaty to justify changing a set up to make run they do.

[oldred]

Well I am beginning to have second thoughts about this after considering the brass situation, I have been doing some searching and i looks like replacing the brass I have (they won't last forever) is going to be much harder than acquiring the 22 Mag which is what I was trying to avoid! If this is going to turn into a classic case of "jumping out of the frying pan into the fire" I may as well just forget the whole thing.


I suppose there are other choices that would be easier to feed, 22 Hornet, K-Hornet, etc but I would be starting from scratch with no brass and no reamer and no real desire for that round. Oh well it was a thought and I suppose 22 Mag will be available SOMEDAY!

[Wis. Tom]

I have 2 Win model 43's, in 218 Bee, that I am feeding, but am blessed to have thousands of rounds and brass in the waiting. I use the Sierra 45 gr Soft Point Hornet #1110 bullet, with 14.2 grains of H4198, and it is amazingly accurate.

[oldred]

I have 2 Win model 43's, in 218 Bee, that I am feeding, but am blessed to have thousands of rounds and brass in the waiting. I use the Sierra 45 gr Soft Point Hornet #1110 bullet, with 14.2 grains of H4198, and it is amazingly accurate.

I wish that such was my case, unfortunately I only have about 220 cases including the dozen or so factory loaded rounds and while I already knew it was somewhat hard to come by I didn't realize just how bad the situation is until I started checking this morning. The real problem is that it looks as if it will never be any better, indeed it's likely to get worse due to lack of demand, so by doing this it apparently would be trading what is likely to be a temporary ammo supply problem for a permanent supply problem.

If I use up the last 150 or so 22 Mag rounds I have and still can't find any more I will take another look at doing this but as of this morning I have decided it's probably just not a good idea and I will put it on hold for a while, in the mean time I am going to keep looking for some brass and if I can collect enough then I may go for it.

[leadman]

You could use the 22CCM, a center fire reloadable version of the 22 WRM. The owner of Speciality Pistols website, Magnum Mike, is involved with this cartridge.
I had a Contender 22lr barrel rechambered to 22 K-hornet many years ago. This has a 16 twist and it shoots the 45gr and 50 gr bullets very well. Have not tried the 55gr. Your 14 twist should work fine.

[oldred]

You could use the 22CCM, a center fire reloadable version of the 22 WRM. The owner of Speciality Pistols website, Magnum Mike, is involved with this cartridge.

That brass would be even harder to obtain than the Bee and quite expensive wouldn't it? Also I don't think it can be fired in a standard 22 Mag chamber?

I have brass and dies from years ago and a reamer that I can borrow without cost for the Bee plus the whole Idea was to have a rifle that would be easy(ier) to get ammo for.

[leadman]

From what I have read it can be fired in a standard 22 WMR chamber. Very easy in a Contender with the 2 firing pins. Could you make a chamber sleeve to adapt it to 22lr? The boolits will bump up to fill the bore.
The 22 K-Hornet would be my choice as the brass is not to difficult or expensive and it downloads to 22lr with no problems.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

How much better will your rifle shoot, if the brass has "218 Bee" written on it? It is quite simple to make from .25-20.

You should consult reamer makers, such as Clymer and David Manson, about just how long their pilots are. It might work fine, or it might tend to produce scoring of one side of the bore. I'd look at just what the inner diameter of a fired .22WRM case, slightly shortened to remove any remaining vestige of the crimp. Some rimfire brass is thicker at the rear than the front, and it might make a bushing which would solve your problem for nothing.

Alternatively a good machinist could turn you a bush from brass rod or tube. I turned a stainless ferrule for a baitcasting rod once, to as good a standard as you could require, but I won't tell you how many failures it took. A good principle with holes is to do the inside first, and then an outside around it. There is a good chance that a piece of 7/32in. brass rod, at .21875, will support the tube while you turn the outside.

[oldred]

Again the whole idea was to avoid the hassle of hard to get ammo or improvising plus I don't know for sure how well the LR could be made to shoot with a bushed chamber and a bore/rifling meant for the 22 Mag. As for the Bee I already had everything needed and wouldn't have had to invest in anything. However 220 cases is not exactly a lot and apparently I had woefully underestimated the supply situation of the brass so replacement would be questionable at best.

The CCM is too long to chamber in a standard 22 mag chamber so that would involve reaming the chamber rendering it unsuitable for optimal accuracy with 22 Mag rounds plus loading dies are terribly expensive and a bit of checking this morning confirms what I already suspected, the CCM case is simply not available except for the occasional owner selling off a few cases here and there. Apparently no one makes it anymore and have not made any for some time, add to that a lot of the cases that were available at one time were of very poor quality often cracking with the first firing. I like the idea of the little CCM and even looked into it briefly a couple of years ago but it looked at the time to be a great deal of hassle and expense for very little return, I thought maybe the situation had improved and interest had developed in this little round but apparently just the opposite is true and in fact it's pretty much just an interesting but failed experiment.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Again the whole idea was to avoid the hassle of hard to get ammo or improvising plus I don't know for sure how well the LR could be made to shoot with a bushed chamber and a bore/rifling meant for the 22 Mag.

I'm practically sure it couldn't. What I meant was a bushing in the chamber to guide the pilot of a .218 Bee (or other) chamber reamer, if it was too short to accurately align the reamer in an existing .22WRM.

As to the .22 CCM being failure, it depends what you mean. It was an extremely practical cartridge, and if its introduction had coincided with the recent rimfire shortage, it might have made all the difference. My guess is that some of the brass was turned from solid stock, which isn't really good enough for this application. It is one that really needed to be taken up by someone who mass-produced brass by drawing in the normal way, and that didn't happen.

[oldred]

I'm practically sure it couldn't. What I meant was a bushing in the chamber to guide the pilot of a .218 Bee (or other) chamber reamer, if it was too short to accurately align the reamer in an existing .22WRM.

As to the .22 CCM being failure, it depends what you mean. It was an extremely practical cartridge, and if its introduction had coincided with the recent rimfire shortage, it might have made all the difference. My guess is that some of the brass was turned from solid stock, which isn't really good enough for this application. It is one that really needed to be taken up by someone who mass-produced brass by drawing in the normal way, and that didn't happen.

My apologies, I misunderstood what you meant. Yes now that I see what you were talking about that could work and if I manage to locate a good supply of the Bee brass I may revisit this idea, I just have a fond memory of that round and it would be my choice.

I always thought the CCM round was a good idea and while I have been told, quite correctly, that it can't do anything the Hornet couldn't do better I still just liked the idea of the darn thing and after all that's what this sport is all about, if we all just settled for what we "needed" there wouldn't be many calibers to choose from!

[kywoodwrkr]

22CCM Rim .308 dia, base .249, neck .245, case len 1.156 drawing of 22CCM ??
22WMR Rim .294 dia, base .244, neck .243, case len 1.074 These are CPI CHAMBER maximums
Also back in '07:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?12805-Bullshop-22-CCM
Been brain storming this for a few weeks.
Raw material cost for brass cases runs about $.43/@. For small lot of 48/50.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It sounds like you could make a case for the .22CCM from ¼in. tubing, like this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-4-6-35-mm-BRASS-12-TUBING-K-S-131-8131-NEW-/361006209448?hash=item540da599a8:g:Ww4AAOSwRLZT1sE 9

You would need a head made separately, possibly of steel, and attached with low melting-point solder. I think I would thread the head 6mm x 0.5, but swage the tube onto it before soldering, rather than thread the latter. There is plenty of space in the case if you don't need it to be more than a rimfire substitute, so the head could form a sleeve extending some way up the side. I would bore the primer pocket a shade undersized, and swage it to its final size. ly

[oldred]

I bet that would work!

[kywoodwrkr]

Or turn it from 5/16" brass rod like this:
156038
If only it were that simple.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

That could be done, or a repetition machining company could turn them out in numbers once an automatic machine was set up. But it wouldn't be anywhere near as durable as drawn brass.

[oldred]

That could be done, or a repetition machining company could turn them out in numbers once an automatic machine was set up. But it wouldn't be anywhere near as durable as drawn brass.

If I understand correctly a large portion of the original brass that was first available for this round was machine turned from barstock and it wasn't very durable at all with most of the cases splitting on the first or second firing. I wonder if that was due to the wrong alloy or possibly it needed to be annealed??????


This is a very interesting round that's sounds like fun but with brass being all but impossible to come by and almost no prospect of it becoming available in the future I think it will remain little more than a curiosity.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

People do use turned brass cases for some obsolete firearms, and the brass life, although not usually good, isn't that bad. Apart from pressure I think the key is really close correspondence between the sizes of your case, dies and chamber make all the difference. Maybe the reason for the extra length of the .22CCM was to make sure that either he got to evaluate a rifle for rechambering, or someone else had to carry the can for the decision. He didn't want people saying "This was meant to be a straight firing-pin conversion, and look what happened to me." I can't see that that very trifling extra length was any use for anything else.

[oldred]

I can't see that that very trifling extra length was any use for anything else.

Well actually I think I can see why it was necessary, or at least it seems to me the reason why. That rimfire magnum case is basically a cylinder with a thin flat bottom but the added material necessary to allow forming the primer pocket, and indeed the primer itself, takes up some of the volume and thus would reduce the powder capacity. In the 22 mag case with it's already limited capacity that primer and the necessary extra material required to hold it would reduce the capacity by a significant percentage, thus making it necessary to extend the case length enough to make up the difference.

[1989toddm]

http://www.manta.com/c/mm2tjd8/bullets-schroeder
These guys make 22 CCM brass from what I've been told. I would love to see someone do this, I think it's a great round. Sure the hornet does it all better, but it's just COOL! [emoji41] The dies are the worst expense. Bullshop (Dan) has a reamer, but I don't know if he would rent it out.

[oldred]

http://www.manta.com/c/mm2tjd8/bullets-schroeder
These guys make 22 CCM brass from what I've been told. I would love to see someone do this, I think it's a great round. Sure the hornet does it all better, but it's just COOL! [emoji41] The dies are the worst expense. Bullshop (Dan) has a reamer, but I don't know if he would rent it out.


I don't think they have had the 22CCM brass available for some time now, not sure they are even still active. In any event it appears at this time about the only brass available is from private individuals selling off what they have and even this appears to be a rare case.

I think now would be a dandy time to re-introduce that round! I could be wrong but I'm willing to bet that due to the current rimfire supply situation and the realization of just how vulnerable that supply is, now that round would get a lot better reception! I know I would be VERY interested if only brass was available in sufficient and reasonably priced quantities!



Ok this has me thinking, I have some experience turning very thin walled 1/4" diameter steel parts for a job I do on occasion (these are parts for a lube system on some mining equipment) and I think I could turn these cases with fairly good accuracy. Now if I tried to make a few of these on an experimental basis what material (brass alloy) would be best for case longevity? Heat treatment/annealing? This discussion has me wondering about the feasibility of doing this and since it would cost basically little more than just the time involved so why not?????

[1989toddm]

I know nothing about brass alloy, or much about machining either for that matter, but I say go for it! You got the dimensions, seems worth a shot!
Remember in your search for brass, that supposedly the European 22 Velo Dog is the same cartridge, and seems to be a few more of them around.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

As for a reamer, someone with a lathe could drill an inexpensive 1/4in. engineer's chucking reamer with a carbide drill, and insert either a pilot or a spindle the right size for Clymer or Manson pilots. For many barrels a 7/32in. engineering pilot would be fine. They commonly have a 1/8in. shank, which means they could be reduced and polished with fine abrasive paper in a Dremel tool.

If you were reaming the slightly narrower .22WRM chamber to 1/4in. none of these pilots would be long enough. In this case I would use a 1/4in. collet in the lathe, and turn a long piece of 1/4in steel drill rod to fit the hole in the reamer.

A 1/4in. centre drill, with its 60 degree point and unfluted sides, would probably give you all the throat you need for a light bullet, if the reamer chamfer wasn't enough. Depending on the firearm you might not need the .004in. taper described in post 20, or you could probably do enough by slightly tapering a 1/4in. brass rod with abrasive paper, and lapping the chamber with fine abrasive powder or paste.

[oldred]

supposedly the European 22 Velo Dog is the same cartridge, and seems to be a few more of them around.

No I didn't know that but a quick search shows that they are indeed the same cases! Unfortunately although Fiochi (spell?) loaded that round not too long ago it seems they too are now as scarce as the proverbial Hen's teeth.

I really do think the 22CCM (apparently nothing more than a heavier loaded Velo-Dog) suffered mostly from bad timing and likely would be much better received today!

[NavyVet1959]

Would a .22 TCM chamber work for you?

[oldred]

Doing some more thinking here, if the 22CCM is just a heavier loaded Velo-Dog as it appears to be and since cases are apparently going to be a DIY affair either way then why not start with a clean slate and just do a true centerfire 22 mag round? I realize there would be some volume loss so reduced performance vs the rf 22 mag could be expected but still it should handily outperform the 22LR and be reloadable and also fit existing 22 mag chambers, guns such as the Contender wouldn't even need to be modified and those that do still would not need to be rechambered.

Just something to consider

[1989toddm]

I see your logic, and would tend to agree, except I remember seeing a report of the 22ccm making a accurate killing shot at somewhere close to 450 yds on a woodchuck. If it is capable of that, and the fact that it is sort of a shrunk 45-70, I think I would want the extra length, just in case it is needed for performance.
But, going ahead and making cases is far better than just sitting here jawing about it! So make up a few, at 22 mag dimensions and see what ya think! [emoji1] If you do, I would be VERY interested in a handful if you could leave the extra length on there[emoji6] They can always be trimmed if I change my mind.

[oldred]

Would a .22 TCM chamber work for you?

That's a neat little round for sure but it's rimless which would be problem for my particular needs.

[NavyVet1959]

That's a neat little round for sure but it's rimless which would be problem for my particular needs.

How about the .22 Remington Jet... Made from .357 mag brass...

[oldred]

How about the .22 Remington Jet... Made from .357 mag brass...

That one too is an extremely interesting round but this is a scratch built rifle and although it should be strong enough, I machined all the critical parts from 4140HT, I would still feel more comfortable keeping the breech-thrust more in line with something like the rimfire rounds or one of the lower pressure centerfires.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

No I didn't know that but a quick search shows that they are indeed the same cases! Unfortunately although Fiochi (spell?) loaded that round not too long ago it seems they too are now as scarce as the proverbial Hen's teeth.

I really do think the 22CCM (apparently nothing more than a heavier loaded Velo-Dog) suffered mostly from bad timing and likely would be much better received today!

This is a common experience with people who have heard of Fiocchi making short runs of obsolete cartridges. But it isn't as bad as hearing of kills on varmints at incredible ranges with the most unlikely cartridges. The Velo Dog round varied quite a bit in dimensions, some being longer than the .22CCM, and as they all developed considerably less power than the .22LR, I think the chances are that the brass was undesirably light for rifle purposes.

[NavyVet1959]

That one too is an extremely interesting round but this is a scratch built rifle and although it should be strong enough, I machined all the critical parts from 4140HT, I would still feel more comfortable keeping the breech-thrust more in line with something like the rimfire rounds or one of the lower pressure centerfires.

Well, there's nothing saying that you *have* to load it to full power levels, especially if you are not loading it in a semi-auto. Regardless, the recoil on the round is pretty minimal from what I've gathered due to the low projectile weight. I have an RIA chambered in it an 9x19, but I do not have my reloading dies yet, so I haven't fired any .22 TCM from it yet.

[paul h]

Haven't seen the 22 hornet mentioned. Seems like a reasonable candidate, and while brass isn't that easy to find it's more common than the 218 bee.

Another option is the 221 fireball, and a rimmed version can be made from 360 DW brass. While labor intensive, 221 brass can be formed from 223 and there is no shortage of .223 brass.

[oldred]

I guess the topic got a bit sidetracked, in no small part due to me changing my mind a couple of times! :veryconfu


Basically I started out considering the Bee because I once had one and really liked it, I have "some" brass, loading dies and access to free use of a chambering reamer so I was looking at what should have been a cost free conversion to a round I really liked. The fly in the ointment however turns out to be my underestimation of the replacement brass supply which turns out, to my surprise, to be all but non-existent! I have decided since starting this thread that there's little point in dumping the 22 Mag just to go to another round that is even harder to obtain and I would have to start from scratch with new brass, dies and a reamer for anything else so I just scrapped the idea. HOWEVER, the ensuing conversation reawakened an older interest of mine and that's a reloadable 22 LR or 22 Mag type round. I briefly looked at the 22CCM a year or so ago, even started a topic here about it, but quickly dismissed the idea due to the apparent fact it was a concept that never took hold and usable brass was pretty much unavailable.

Still I really like the idea and the last few days I have been taking a serious look at this again but if I do pursue the idea this time it will be for a different rifle dedicated to the project, which brings me to what I have discovered so far. I had some, what is called "half-hard", 360 alloy brass rod which machined beautifully and after reaming the inside and a bit of polishing on the outside looked just like a piece of brand new drawn brass. A bit of testing however revealed that it was disappointingly brittle and very likely to split so after ruining the first piece (I had made two of them) I attempted to anneal the other one and test it also but annealing seemed to make little difference. Testing was done by making various bends and twists of the sidewalls and comparing that to an identical operation on a spent 22 Mag case, the turned brass was obviously quite inferior as far as ductility was concerned. I am going to research brass alloys to see if there is something more suitable or if perhaps there is a better annealing method but it doesn't look to promising so far.


One thing that surprised me was that making these cases was not nearly as time consuming as I expected and if a suitable alloy/annealing method can be found I could see it being feasible to make these cases in usable quantities after refining the procedure a bit. Still there is that nagging question of why does turned brass have the reputation of being weak? Could it be that there simply is no alloy/procedure that will yield good cases? I know there are turned cases on the market for some calibers but unless I'm mistaken these are normally only recommended for low pressure BP cartridges.


I am open to any and all suggestions on brass types and procedures that might result in cases that approximate the strength and crack resistance of commercial drawn brass, it doesn't look like Half-Hard 360 is going to do it.

[1989toddm]

I just talked to Schroeder Bullet Works, and they do make the 22CCM case from 22 Hornet brass. $35/50. The problem they have is finding 22 hornet brass. From all accounts this brass would be much longer lasting then lathe turned as it is made from an existing case.

[oldred]

I just talked to Schroeder Bullet Works, and they do make the 22CCM case from 22 Hornet brass. $35/50. The problem they have is finding 22 hornet brass. From all accounts this brass would be much longer lasting then lathe turned as it is made from an existing case.

Very interesting and I sincerely mean it when I say thanks for that bit of information! Knowing that may give me cause to go back to the original 22CCM idea again if my current effort doesn't work out and to be honest it doesn't look very promising at this point! What I had decided to do, and the two cases I did were made to the specs of, is a reloadable 22 Mag that would work in an unmodified chamber. The primer (small pistol) will be a tight fit but apparently doable IF I can get brass that will work safely, the reduced cases capacity will yield performance somewhere between 22 LR and 22 Mag but most likely less than 22CCM. I am going to consider all options at this point but it could turn into a fun project regardless!

[oldred]

Ok this is looking more discouraging all the time, I have been doing some research and even called an old welding/engineering buddy of mine about this problem. Seems that C260 brass is what is desirable for cartridge cases and in in fact it's known in the metals industry as "cartridge brass", it's easy to get and not expensive but has VERY poor machining qualities that would make it all but impossible to lathe turn down to the thin walls necessary. The 360 alloy has excellent machining qualities but as I found out it's not nearly as ductile as cartridge brass so apparently a suitable brass alloy to lathe turn high quality cases does not exist, about what I suspected since if such was available it probably would have been used on the other lathe turned cases that have been available in the past. Unfortunately the vary properties that make C260 brass alloy work so well for cartridge cases is what also makes it machine poorly.

I also briefly tried copper but decided real quick that it was too soft and "gummy" to even come close to making a decent case with, harder copper alloys are available but apparently the same problems would be encountered as when attempting the harder brass alloys and the copper would be of questionable strength anyway. I'm not completely ready to give up at this point but I have to admit that the prospect of machining decent usable cases is looking to be not so promising right now!

[paul h]

Pick a readily available parent case, 38 special for rimmed or 9mm for rimless. Plenty of case capacity for what you want to do and what you'd save in brass would pay for the dies and reamer.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I just talked to Schroeder Bullet Works, and they do make the 22CCM case from 22 Hornet brass. $35/50. The problem they have is finding 22 hornet brass. From all accounts this brass would be much longer lasting then lathe turned as it is made from an existing case.

This sounds extremely interesting, and if Hornet brass can be got into the right shape, it undoubtedly would be much stronger than either turned brass rod or the suggestion I made of joining a head to tubing. Both of these are only low-pressure expedients. We may owe you for doing the research and finding out.

A possible source of trouble though, is that if only the case walls are sized down by the necessary 0.046in. or so, and then the base is turned down on the lathe, there may be some thinning of the wall where it meets the solid web. Or maybe they use a die which reduces the beginning of the solid metal. This would require a lot of force, and some kind of shellholder which fits into the primer pocket, to prevent that being reduced. There would be some risk of pulling off the rim instead of extracting the case from the die. While some sort of screw-on thimble bearing on all of the rim might work, extracting it with a push-rod certainly would.

It might be useful if they will supply a sample case, which you can section or probe with a bent piece of wire. Drilling and chamfering a simple hole in a piece of steel, and pressing a Hornet case into it with an engineering vice might also be instructive.

Oldred is right about the qualities of the two main kinds of brass rod you might use, and even cartridge brass will only reach its full strength by some work hardening. I think the inside would drill and ream cleanly enough, and you could get the exterior smooth with a toolpost grinder, possibly using carbide burrs. With a good purpose-built one you would be paying a lot of money for durability this kind of work doesn't require, but devices like this, with the Dremel or other hand-grinders, flexible shaft tools etc., are cheaper or could be made:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/D1-Dremel-motor-holder-as-live-tool-tool-post-grinder-mini-lathe-2-point-mout-/141855592779?hash=item210740914b:g:zfoAAOSwstxU2P9 z

None of these jobs, though, are anywhere near as simple or cheap as converting .32-20 or .25-20 brass to the Bee. John J. Donnelly, in his "Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions", says you can do it with a neck anneal and the Bee FL sizing die.

[1989toddm]

This sounds extremely interesting, and if Hornet brass can be got into the right shape, it undoubtedly would be much stronger than either turned brass rod or the suggestion I made of joining a head to tubing. Both of these are only low-pressure expedients. We may owe you for doing the research and finding out.

A possible source of trouble though, is that if only the case walls are sized down by the necessary 0.046in. or so, and then the base is turned down on the lathe, there may be some thinning of the wall where it meets the solid web. Or maybe they use a die which reduces the beginning of the solid metal. This would require a lot of force, and some kind of shellholder which fits into the primer pocket, to prevent that being reduced. There would be some risk of pulling off the rim instead of extracting the case from the die. While some sort of screw-on thimble bearing on all of the rim might work, extracting it with a push-rod certainly would.

It might be useful if they will supply a sample case, which you can section or probe with a bent piece of wire. Drilling and chamfering a simple hole in a piece of steel, and pressing a Hornet case into it with an engineering vice might also be instructive.

Oldred is right about the qualities of the two main kinds of brass rod you might use, and even cartridge brass will only reach its full strength by some work hardening. I think the inside would drill and ream cleanly enough, and you could get the exterior smooth with a toolpost grinder, possibly using carbide burrs. With a good purpose-built one you would be paying a lot of money for durability this kind of work doesn't require, but devices like this, with the Dremel or other hand-grinders, flexible shaft tools etc., are cheaper or could be made:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/D1-Dremel-motor-holder-as-live-tool-tool-post-grinder-mini-lathe-2-point-mout-/141855592779?hash=item210740914b:g:zfoAAOSwstxU2P9 z

None of these jobs, though, are anywhere near as simple or cheap as converting .32-20 or .25-20 brass to the Bee. John J. Donnelly, in his "Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions", says you can do it with a neck anneal and the Bee FL sizing die.

I forget the fellers name I talked to, but he about talked my ear off! They do 14 different steps to the hornet case beginning with sizing the base of the brass, if I understood him correctly. He is a very knowledgable fella, said they make or covert well over 100 different cases and close to 100 bullets (not cast). If if was me, (and I hope to in the future) I would go this route and get the dies from ch4d. I think they are the cheapest. Either have a reamer made or I can send you contact info where you can send your barrel to be reamed to 22 CCM.

[oldred]

I am following this 22CCM information with great interest but as of right now I am going in a slightly different direction and looking into the possibility of the reloadable 22 Mag cases, well at least a reloadable case with 22 Mag physical dimensions. If this can be done from a practical standpoint it would make for a reloadable round that could be fired in a standard 22 Mag chamber, albeit with somewhat reduced performance than the Magnum but above that of a 22 LR. In convertible firearms such as the contender this would allow use without any conversion at all and would require only center fire capability in anything else already having a 22 Mag chamber.

This is just a thought but right now I am looking into the possibility of forming the cases, while full forming in a home shop would likely not be practical I have been discussing a hybrid type operation with the welding/engineering friend of mine and while this looks promising it would have to be economically feasible from both a cost and time standpoint to be worth the effort.

[1989toddm]

I am following this 22CCM information with great interest but as of right now I am going in a slightly different direction and looking into the possibility of the reloadable 22 Mag cases, well at least a reloadable case with 22 Mag physical dimensions. If this can be done from a practical standpoint it would make for a reloadable round that could be fired in a standard 22 Mag chamber, albeit with somewhat reduced performance than the Magnum but above that of a 22 LR. In convertible firearms such as the contender this would allow use without any conversion at all and would require only center fire capability in anything else already having a 22 Mag chamber.

This is just a thought but right now I am looking into the possibility of forming the cases, while full forming in a home shop would likely not be practical I have been discussing a hybrid type operation with the welding/engineering friend of mine and while this looks promising it would have to be economically feasible from both a cost and time standpoint to be worth the effort.

And I'm following your progress also, a case that fits in a mag chamber will probably be better received than a rechamber option.

[NavyVet1959]

A case based on the .327 mag / .32 S&W Long necked down to .22 might solve your requirement for a rimmed case and not result in excessive rechambering effort. Originally, I thought a .30 carbine case would work for you, but since you wanted a rimmed case, perhaps something like the .327 mag / .32 S&W Long?

[oldred]

A case based on the .327 mag / .32 S&W Long necked down to .22 might solve your requirement for a rimmed case and not result in excessive rechambering effort. Originally, I thought a .30 carbine case would work for you, but since you wanted a rimmed case, perhaps something like the .327 mag / .32 S&W Long?

These are good suggestions as were the others, in fact that 22 TCM really, and I mean REALLY caught my interest! I had never paid much attention to that one and hardly even recognized the name at first but after you pointed it out I did a bit of research on it I was very surprised at what I found, that looks like the ideal round for another project I intend to pursue this Summer. That one will be single shot target pistol based on an action of my own design that I have been working on, well not entirely my own but rather a heavily modified falling block based on Brownings idea but redesigned with a pistol in mind. I envision a 14" heavy barrel with scope and a unique actuating system but so far I had not firmly selected a caliber, however the 22 TCM looks extremely promising, thanks for pointing it out!

The original topic of this post was about rechambering my 22 Magnum to the 218 Bee but I have since, due to availability mostly, just decided to leave the 22 Mag as it is however the topic has morphed into considering the feasibility of creating a true CF version of the 22 Magnum cartridge, sorry about any confusion this has caused and maybe we should just start a new thread since this has taken off in a completely different direction?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I am following this 22CCM information with great interest but as of right now I am going in a slightly different direction and looking into the possibility of the reloadable 22 Mag cases, well at least a reloadable case with 22 Mag physical dimensions. If this can be done from a practical standpoint it would make for a reloadable round that could be fired in a standard 22 Mag chamber, albeit with somewhat reduced performance than the Magnum but above that of a 22 LR. In convertible firearms such as the contender this would allow use without any conversion at all and would require only center fire capability in anything else already having a 22 Mag chamber.

This is just a thought but right now I am looking into the possibility of forming the cases, while full forming in a home shop would likely not be practical I have been discussing a hybrid type operation with the welding/engineering friend of mine and while this looks promising it would have to be economically feasible from both a cost and time standpoint to be worth the effort.

You have to consider how desirable a rifle for an unusual cartridge may be to others. You have built your rifle, and may have no thought of selling it. But you wouldn't like to think of it being left in a corner to rust a couple of generations from now, because it is for no available ammunition or loading equipment.

We don't know why the .22CCM was made larger in diameter than the WRM, but I don't think it was likely to be the existence, or former existence, of the Velo Dog. One possibility was that there were Magnum firearms convertible simply by a change or block, which were unsuitable for the higher pressures to which some might load the CCM. It may also have been that it was considered advisable to have a little more thickness of metal around the primer pocket.

I've mentioned this here before, but I have a large quantity of Winchester Super-X headstamped rimfire cases an inch in length, of standard LR diameter but never loaded, which I bought on eBay for making bullet jackets. The only thing I know of that they might have been meant for is shotshells. Although they thicken slightly as you approach the rim, I think a large pistol primer could be rammed all the way down, and the anvil held in place with a superglued or crimped diaphragm made with another one.